i have not been able to get my card scraper to leave as nice of a finish as my planes. I might need to use a different burnisher. Any experiences that might help?
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Replies
Adam,
From my experience, on well-behaved material where it is possible to get a very nice finish from a plane, a scraper is no match. A scraper is best used when a good finish is not able to be achieved from a plane.
Chris @ www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
I tend to agree. I use hand planes but mostly I use my hand scrapers.
The plane is better but not for the woods I usually use. Purpleheart, Jatoba, Ash.
On Ash I can get as good a finish as a plane (At least with my planes!) Jatoba changes grain direction often and a plane is sort of useless to me. Purpleheart, A plane acts like a ice skate across the surface!
The burnisher has nothing to do with it, I use an old chisel. You almost always have to sand after the scraper.
Napie, old son, the burnisher most definitely has something to do with it. An "old chisel" (;) can be not hard enough and worse, rough or pitted which will gall the edge of the scraper and leave it rough.
You don't know what kind of scraper blade the op is using- it may something quite hard therefore a hard burnisher is required-something harder than the usual chisel. Carbide rods like Tony Zaffuto gets or polished hard steel like needle rollers make excellent burnishers that guarrantee a good result on any normal scraper blade, provided the scraper edge itself is polished/honed/stoned smooth.Philip Marcou
Well that is all Tage Frid ever used and I learned how to sharpen scrapers from him. It works just fine and I’d say his credibility on the subject is without reproach. He was about actually WORKING WOOD not screwing around with tools.
Napie
I am with Philip on this. The burnisher most definitely shapes the edge of a scraper, just as the surface of the wood is shaped by the edge of the scraper.
I, too, was influenced by Tage Frid. I have also seen him burnish a scraper with the back of a chisel. But we are not able to determine the finish of that scraper. There are scrapers and then there are Scrapers. I have scrapers that I use to remove old paint or glue. I burnish them with a file. But when I want a fine finish, I use one of the ultra smooth carbide rods I got from Tony.
View Image
Regards fom Perth
Derek
All I can say is that I was with him and did it with him, and the finish was great. I have been using that same method for over 20 years on thousands of feet of hardwoods and it has never let me down. But if purchasing carbide rods makes one feel better by all means go for it, I’d rather buy wood. But then my tools must not really be right at all since I use an old high speed grinder and a Arkansas oil stone to sharpen them, and Lord knows there is no way that can work….
Edited 9/2/2008 8:28 am ET by Napie
Napie
First you say, "He was about actually WORKING WOOD not screwing around with tools." Then you say, "But if purchasing carbide rods makes one feel better by all means go for it, I’d rather buy wood. But then my tools must not really be right at all since I use an old high speed grinder and a Arkansas oil stone to sharpen them, and Lord knows there is no way that can work…."
Sound like you have some other agenda than just preparing a scraper blade.
Regards from Perth
Derek (with a free carbide rod, a gift from a fellow galoot).
In fact I do. I find the amount of jacking around with sole flattening, micro bevels, 100,000,000 grit paper, super flat glass, et al tiresome in the extreme. Wood working has become an exercise in tool technology not building stuff. The reason I appreciate Frid and his contemporaries is that they worked wood. They did not navel gaze on the latest sharpening technologies. He ground his chisels on a 3x21 belt sander clamped in a vice, then he chopped perfect dovetails. That is just my soap box…
And I would say, that Philip/Derek doesn't know how hard Napie's nor Tage's scraper is.
I have had scrapers certainly soft enough that chisel and screw driver shanks worked a treat without grooving the shanks--which is the main issue with using the less-hardened shanks of such tools.
However, many scrapers made today are from harder steel than they once were. Good for holding the hook longer, bad for the shanks of many tools. Carbide router bits make good burnishers. Take a relatively cheap, worn out (in need of sharpening) straight bit, drill a hole is a piece of wood and glue the cutter end in. Works wonderful.
I fall into the camp of prepping a scraper blade with a file and followed by the edge of a sharpening stone. The resulting hook last much better because it is less serrated regardless of the hardness of the steel in the scraper and therefore doesn't fracture away as easily.
Oh, and Napie, you do know Philip actually has and continues to make stuff professionally don't you? Derek is no slob with actual woodworking output, either. Just because someone disagrees doesn't mean they are a tool-hording hack.
Take care, Mike
And then you have a old man like me that never (almost never.. but sometimes I need for the wood in front of me) uses a hook on my scrapers. I use a polished 45 degree edge. For some nasty grains I will use a hook if I have to.
A 'nice' 45 degree edge lasts along time! Yes, I do get power sometimes, I also get shavings! It all depends on the grain. I have nothing against the hook, I usually find it unnecessary in most cases.
Just me.
I have looked very closely at the surface with the 'powder' scraped off.. Fit for finish and then some!
But then again, I am not making a museum pieces.
Hi Will
I have always used a hook on cabinet scrapers, but for years I used a straight grind (no hook) on the blade for my #112 scraper plane. The shavings were weak although the surface of the wood was OK, but it took a lot of poor shavings to work it to an OK state.
Then I had a brief discussion with Paul Hamler, who advocated a hook on a thin blade. His arguments had me trying again, and I took the time to compare thin- and thick blades with hooks. The results are here ..
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/Thick%20verses%20thin%20112%20Scraper%20Plane%20blades.html
I was not convinced about a thin blade on the #112, but the return to a hook was a no-brainer. Here are shavings on Tasmanian Oak (a moderately hard eucalypt) ..
View Image
And on hard Maple, which is more familar to you. In both cases, the surface is very similar to that from a smoother.
View Image
Regards from Perth
Derek
Edited 9/4/2008 10:33 pm ET by derekcohen
Edited 9/4/2008 10:34 pm ET by derekcohen
Frid scraped lacquer between coats which I think might be a testatment to how finely he was able to set one up for use.
There's a story floating around on Woodcentral I think - Mack Headley, Sr. was trying out the L-N dovetail saw, which he had never used before, and the L-N rep. stopped him and said he wasn't sawing right. Well, right.
So goes Tage Frid with a scraper...
If we break all this stuff down into enoug minutiae we can eventually explain away the tangible accomplishments of woodworkers like Frid. Theoretically, I suppose, his scrapers never should have worked at all.
Edit: It was Jeff Headley apparently in my anecdote above.
Edited 9/2/2008 7:55 pm ET by BossCrunk
That is an entirely innappropriate reply: one of the points I was making was that scrapers , especially these days, are made from steels that can be relatively soft or very hard. I too followed Tage Frid via all his books and would guess that he made his own scrapers from saw blades-which can be relatively soft so almost any chisel would do fine.
I have a set of Peugeot card scrapers here- the steel is hard- can't even be filed, therefore they have to be dressed with a stone only and burnished with a steel much harder than R.C 60 ish as found on chisels.They are good scrapers for hard abrasive timbers the likes of which you , I guess, have not experienced.
If you are insinuating that I am not "about actually working with wood" I think you should do some research. What are the Taliban most noted for?
Philip Marcou
Phillip,
Although I still owe a piece of carbide to a fellow Galoot from New Zealand, I suppose I should gather enough to make available to a few Knot-heads to convince them of it's advantages.
Your assumptions about the hardness is spot on, along with the extremely polished surface. Additionally, the carbide I have sent out actually has a natural lubricity that aids in turning the burr.
Let me know which nay-sayers we need to convince and I'll start to gather. Maybe, though, they can't afford my price????
Have a good one Phillip, my friend!
Tony Z.
"Let me know which nay-sayers we need to convince and I'll start to gather."
Tony, I can name two right off the top of my head. Trouble is, they are veteran members of the Woodworking Taliban so nought but a 7.62 long would persuade them.Philip Marcou
Comrade Charles has brought up an interesting point about scraping lacquer, although I have no idea why he thinks Tage Frid is being denigrated by anyone on this here forum....
Scraping lacquer in order to level it is not an indication of some sort of superior level of scraper , dare I say the word, TUNING. A smooth polished edge, very sharp at the corners , with ends rounded is what does the job, rather than a hook (which will peel off any newly applied lacquer big time).The idea is to level that lacquer and go straight to the finest of sanding if at all. Anyone who has tried to build up thickness quickly will have seen that sanding , even with water etc , quickly clogs the paper, and takes long when you have to wait for the lacquer to be "sandable". Much quicker to spray and scrape until all is level with sufficient body then wait for full cure and only then use minimal sanding. That is , if the lacquer type can take it.Philip Marcou
Phillip,
I first read Frid's account of lacquer scraping in the early 80's. IIRC correctly, he was new to these parts, and having been excluded from a woodworking class that he wished to attend, constructed a coffee table. As the class was breaking up, he was scraping his lacquer finish, to the amazement of the other students. Or something like that.
Anyhow, after reading his story, several of us in our shop experimented with lacquer scraping. I found that holding the scraper in one hand, with the fingers curled, and using very little pressure as the scraper is pulled forward, was fast and usually foolproof.
The scraper I was using at the time was a Sandvick, and the burnisher was the back of a Freud chisel. Frid's writings to a large extent helped shape my development as a woodworker, although I now use a hard steel burnisher instead of a chisel. When you talk about scraping lacquer, you are touching on one of the raw, common-sense approaches to woodworking that seemed to define, and drive, Mr. Frid.
Best!
-Jerry
That's the story.
Frid, Klausz, and those of their ilk, I don't believe, made a habit of revisiting tools and skills already acquired and pretty much perfected. I'm sure at some point if Frid had thought there was something he wasn't getting out of his scraper then he would have "fixed" the problem, whatever he perceived it to be.
These guys are the quintessential if it ain't broke don't fix it woodworkers and I suppose, to some, could be considered founding members of the Woodworking Taliban - a moniker not surprisingly created and bandied about by a guy who sells tools for a living. You know the crowd - the "your planes don't really work because those shavings COULD be a thousandth of a millimeter thinner." It's usually either that or something along that line that if your edge tools won't hold up to some glorified Australian railroad tie lumber (that you'll never use and don't even have access to) that somehow your kit is inadequate or incomplete. Raise your hand if you are ready to puke if you lay eyes on another Jarrah-handled marking knife.
Tiresome. To the extreme.
I've frankly grown weary of all the soft-selling and tool catalog regurgitation that goes on in these forums. They're fast becoming nothing more than electronic shoppers' news sites. Everybody is in a perpetual state of shopping, trying to buy their way to craftsmanship. We're in trouble when the folks we look to for woodworking advice are employees of tool companies hired to go around the country demonstrating a tool brand - the master craftsmen of the woodworking snippet I like to call them. They're the recognized experts in cutting the houndstooth dovetail, or producing the venerable 'one thou shaving.' Nevermind the real masters who present the craft in its fullness, as an organic whole. They're practically brushed off as being too quaint for the 21st century. What we need are more thinly veiled product plugs and supposedly 'unbiased reviews.' That, and the masked carbide crusader who is either the nicest guy in the world or taking the temperature (anally apparently) of the potential market for a new and improved burnisher. Oy-freaking-vey. Three guesses what the handle will be made of.
Improved tool steel or just more tools taking up woodworking? When the latter doesn't do much more than talk about the former then the question is asked and answered I suppose.
Good Gawd, if better tool steel would make me the master of design and proportion then rest assured that I would own an effin' boatload of it, not to mention a better burnisher.
Edited 9/3/2008 4:42 pm ET by BossCrunk
Rock on! How about some help with my turban...
Tony, thanks again for the carbide rod. I had the Crown burnisher already but your carbide rod does it easier and smoother. I too admire Tage Frid and his work, but there have been improvements to steels and tools since Tage left us.
I bet people would pay good money for your burnisher rod if they had a chance to use it once. At least 1000% more than you currently charge!
As a parallel, I grew up in the 50's and 60's and loved the high horsepower engines of the day. The smallest engine Chevy and Ford had was in the 230 cu range, and they were the economy models. Dad bought a new 1962 Chevy with a 235 cu six and standard transmission that got around 20 mpg and was not fast. Today I drive a Mercury Sable with a little 3.0 liter V6, 182 cu, and it gets much better mileage and has a lot more performance than Dad's old Chevy could dream of. If you had told me in 1962 that a 182 cu engine would be able to perform as engines of today do, I would have thought that you were nuts. 427 cu, 7 liters, was a performance engine in 1962, and today we think that a 302, 5 liter engine, is a hot rod.
Modern technologies have changed the way we produce many products and for the better. I bet Tage would have loved to be able to buy some of the products we have available today.
Where I work they have taught us that change is inevitable. Not always change for the better, but many things have changed for the better! Hang in there, if I ever wear this carbide rod out I'll pay more for the next one!
Bruce"A man's got to know his limitations." Dirty Harry Calahan
Yes it is. I for one do not enjoy the navel gazing. It is also the reason I dropped my subscription to FWW, I have had enough of the tool envy.
You almost always have to sand after the scraper.
Don't agree - I rarely sand after scraping.
While the finish from a scraper, cabinet or scraper plane, is not as good as a smoother's (being more matt than gloss), it can still be finish-ready. On most occasions, working with hardwoods, I achieve a shiny finish.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,
I'm asking you this question because I figure you probably have this tool. I use the LV plastic burnisher set at 5 degrees as the finishing step to roll the edge, is that not adequate?
Hi BG
I do have the Veritas Variable Burnisher lying somewhere on a shelf.
I think that the reason I stopped using it some years ago was that (1) it was only suited to thinner blades, such as cabinet scrapers (I needed to prepare a #112 as well), and (2) it was hard to judge the amount of pressure needed to create a suitable hook. I always seemed to overdo it.
I much prefer freehanding the hook with a burnisher rod. You get better feedback and can use less downforce (or more, as needed).
Like others, I began using screwdriver and chisel shafts as burnishers, "graduating" to car parts! (pinion gear), and finally bought the Crown. I would be happy with it if I had not been given the carbide rod. The carbide seems to require less pressure than the thicker Crown rod.
Regards from Perth
Derek
While the finish from a scraper, cabinet or scraper plane, is not as good as a smoother's (being more matt than gloss), it can still be finish-ready.
I like this post.
Maybe what I wanted to say but the words did not appear in my brain! As I stated I hardly ever have to sand after using a scraper.
I guess it all boils down to the finish I like. Maybe not for others.
You almost always have to sand after the scraper.
No hate here... BUT I beg to differ with you on that statement! OK, so sometimes I sand but not often!
Most projects will benifit from a bit of 320.
A scraper cannot be expected to leave a finish as good as a smoother should.Yes, it will leave a level surface without tear out, but the fibres have not been severed in the same way as a plane blade at suitable cut angle does- the surface will not feel as smooth . Therefore minimal fine sanding is needed- I call it sanding for tactile purposes only.The type of wood has a bearing on how fine a grit one needs to use.
While a different burnisher may help, I am guessing that your real problem may be technique oriented. Many inexperienced scraper users will use WAAY too much pressure when they burnish their hook. This fractures the edge giving it a saw tooth like edge which scratches and roughens the wood surface. Try this method:
File your scraper edge flat (that is with the file perpendicular to the flat sides of the scraper). Now Draw the edge by burnishing with your burnisher held paralell with the flat scraper sides. Follow this by burnishing with your burnisher held nearly perfectly perpendicular to the scraper sides (medium pressure... 3 to 5 pounds and several strokes on each edge). Now turn your burr with the burnisher held just slightly out of perpendicular to the flat scraper edges (2 to 3 degrees). Use light pressure (about three pounds).
At this point your scraper should feel sharp and cut nice shavings from any hardwood surface. As your burr dulls from use restart this process with the edge drawing step (skipping the filing step). Your second set of edges after filing will be smoother (though less aggressive) than your first set. In most cases I will refile after the second set of edges becomes too dulled (though I sometimes reburnish for a third set of edges).
Scrapers will do their best work on hard to very hard woods. Soft woods are challenging for scrapers. On woods like oak and hickory you should get pretty smooth surfaces off the scraper (maybe still not as good as a fine smoothing plane but closer than most people would care about anyway).
A good burnisher is definitely helpful and I have several. Some of mine I have made myself from old file steel and I can say that when you have made a few you will understand why a good one is not too cheap. You'll also understand why they are worthwhile. I could make an excellent burnisher from an old chisel BUT I suspect that most who are using such things as burnishers are unaware of the needed hardnesses and smoothnesses and would do better work (easier too) if they bought a nice burnisher. I like the oval or round profiles best.
That's an run-down on burnishers as good as I've seen. Clear & concise.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
I greatly favor a real burnisher for two reasons. First, it is really hard metal. Second, it it highly polished. Both of these attributes mean that there is little chance of galling (or tearing metal from) the scraper edge. Galling makes for less than a smooth cut. The smoother the burnisher, the smoother the burr. Screwdriver/chisel shafts may or may not be hard enough and the chrome plating will eventually deteriorate. Drill bits are also variable in hardness. Using a valve stem from a car engine that has been highly polished is an alternative but, why not just get a burnisher?
I'm not at all sure that the burnisher actually burnishes. I'm not sure it does much besides rolling the edge over. To get a good finish from a scraper, I think you need a pretty finely polished edge and face. Scratches in the corner of the card scraper are going to produce scratches in the work. I don't think the burnisher will take them out 100%. So if you are looking for a little better performance from your scrapers, make sure they are nice and clean first.
I sometimes just file the edge then roll it over. That can leave a rougher finish that I sometimes find desirable. But I think there's a clear difference between that finish and the finish from a polished scraper.
As to the choice of burnishers, I find anything that is scratched by the scraper is unacceptable. It gives you an Oedipal, "this is wrong" feeling in the pit of your stomach that I think few woodworkers could continue with. If the burnisher is smooth and hard enough that it is unaffected by it's job, I think it's good. And I don't think a better burnisher will improve the scraper.
Adam
Good post and good advice.
The post does contain good advice - which may explain why Adam has repeated basically what has been said in previous posts.
However he doesn't seem to have grasped the fact that a hard metal rubbed against a softer metal (which is already smooth) polishes (burnishes) it and also has a work hardening effect which is what is wanted in a scraper edge.The greater the hardness differential the more pronounced the burnishing effect.
Philip Marcou
Edited 9/4/2008 12:33 am by philip
Yeah right. How's the lint in the navel doing this morning?
All that sounds great until you realize you should only need a few swipes with a burnisher (or whatever you're using) to roll the burr. There simply isn't all that much going on except rolling of said burr. The smoothness of the burr was determined by how you dressed the freshly filed edge, not during the three passes it took (at about the pressure one would use to butter toast) to roll the burr.
Edited 9/4/2008 9:38 am ET by BossCrunk
Boss, Phillip and all,
Basically posts about card scrapers can be divided into two camps: those that know how and those that don't. Once you figure out how to hold your tongue, you're slaping yourself on the forehead and wondering why something so simple took so long.
From my perspective, carbide works great, but it was not the first thing I've burnished a card with. I had a crap-ola specifically made burnisher that scarred within a few times of using it. Then I got the bright idea of taking home one of the discarded carbide core pins I use at my manufacturing plant. 3 or 4 years after that, I realized where are the discarded rods were going (scrap) and offered them to fellow Galoots.
If a person doesn't know how to prepare a card scraper, no burnisher be it carbide or anything else is going to help the matter. Ya gotta pay your dues and learn the basic techniques! The carbide I've been sending out is a finer grade of carbide, which translates into superior hardness and polish. Also, it has a natural lubricity to aid in turning a burr. With that said I suspect that many of the problems people have with scrapers is that they are like the young bull eyeing the cow: got to get in there and work it hard and fast, while the old bull says to go easy and make it last.
Tony Z.
Tony, when turning a burr less is more. If it takes more than a few swipes at "butter the toast pressure" then something has been done incorrectly. I have no doubt that polished carbide, given that it will be harder than the scraper, will work fine to turn a burr. Add it to the list of a lot of things that will work.
The purpose of the burnisher is to push the edge over and form the burr. It is not a proxy for a honing stone. Burnishing is not an additive process. Its purpose is not to impart more polish to the edge, but again, simply to turn a burr. It takes two or three strokes on each working edge. Total contact time with the edge would be much less than two seconds.
If anybody wants to have a 'breakthrough' regarding scraper usage the best advice I can give you is try a lot less harder and give in to easy. Easy is good. Simple is good. Learning to accept easy and moving on is good. Constantly revisiting already learned skills is almost always bad. What's the saying - a life so short, the craft so long to learn, or something like that? I have a little kit of scrapers and a burnisher. It's tidy, neat, and I know how to use them. Not revisiting it. There's no need to. I get precisely what I need from the setup.
Edited 9/4/2008 2:06 pm ET by BossCrunk
I totally agree! Carbide will do nothing for someone who doesn't know how to prepare a scraper first. For someone who has their technique down, it may help a bit.
Have a good one Boss,
Tony
And until you realize that the old chisel is too soft, Old Chisel.Philip Marcou
If he was alive you could take it up with Tage. I've seen him use a scraper. Looked like it worked to me - lot of little thin, whispy shavings and a pretty smooth surface left behind.
But let's not let results get in the way of a good debate over process and tools.
I would take it up with him by giving him a card scraper unlike what he had been using.I am sure he would get the point-unlike you.You see, he came from The World Out There.
Philip Marcou
How in the world did he ever get along without you?
You're a cheeky ba$tard but I like that.
Here is the entry on Frid from the Rhode Island School of Design ("RISD") which is one of the top five art schools in the U.S.
Scrape on, brutha.
TAGE FRID (1915-2004)
risd connection: Professor of Woodworking and Furniture Design; department head; taught at RISD from 1962-85
about his work: Tage (pronounced “Tay”) Frid was a master woodworker and furniture designer who helped revive an appreciation for the art of fine craftsmanship in the US. A former editor at Fine Woodworking (a magazine Frid helped establish) described the designer’s approach: “He insisted that things be made soundly, and contended that once you established how a thing was to be used and chose the materials and the joinery, the design would flow from those decisions.”
road to risd: A native of Denmark, Frid began his career as a furniture maker at the age of 13 with a five-year apprenticeship under master craftsman Gronlund Jensen in Copenhagen. He worked in cabinet shops and then for a decade at Royal Danish Cabinetmakers. In 1948 he was recruited by the American Crafts Council to establish a woodworking program at the School for American Craftsmen, based first at Alfred University and then at Rochester Institute for Technology. He remained there for 14 years before coming to teach at RISD in 1962.
impact: As founder of the furniture program in RISD’s Industrial Design Department, Frid was a charismatic and influential teacher who inspired his students to go on to become among the country’s finest furniture designers. Today, his former students teach in the most respected furniture design programs in academia and work in the conservation and restoration departments of major museums. According to former student Hank Gilpin [RISD MFA ’73, Furniture Design], Frid was “a natural teacher. He didn’t educate people in order to reproduce himself or justify himself, but to pull things out of them. I think he was attracted to the power of potential in a student; he didn’t want to crush it.” Working primarily in the Danish Modern style throughout his career, the teacher/craftsman also wrote Tage Frid Teaches Woodworking, (Taunton Press, 1993) a three-volume textbook that became essential reading for serious artists in the field.
insights: (1) On the state of craftsmanship in the US: “In Europe craftsmen enjoy the recognition they deserve. Here, an effort should be made to put more respect into vocational training. A student taking vocational training may be just as intelligent as a student enrolled in a college program. The only difference is the student has a different goal. I think it is better to be a good craftsman and happy than to be a doctor or lawyer and unhappy, just to satisfy Mom and Dad.” (2) Frid believed it was important to “design around the construction, and not construct around the design,” and he disapproved of designers who were “so worried about the looks and the sculptural qualities of the piece that they first think about the beauty of the piece and later worry about how it is put together.”
public collectionsMuseum of Fine Arts, BostonThe RISD MuseumSmithsonian Institution
educationSchool for Interior Design, Copenhagen, 1944Vedins School, Copenhagen, 1940 Copenhagen Technical School, Master Craftsman, 1934Apprentice to Danish woodworker Gronlund Jensen, 1928-33
Edited 9/4/2008 7:53 pm ET by BossCrunk
There you go with facts again... How did he ever get any work done with those tools of his?
There you go with facts again... How did he ever get any work done with those tools of his?
The pants-wetters do get on one's last nerve don't they?
Thanks for that , dear Tchap.
Although I am not a sycophantic follower of TF I am still aware of his approach to woodworking.
I like what he says-possibly because I agree with a lot of it, you might say. Therefore I am quite sure we would have got on well WITH each other to mutual benefit.Philip Marcou
How's the scraper hangin' this morning Philip?
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