Well, a couple of hours ago, my sawstop did it’s thing. No fingers or toes involved, just a stupid mistake with my miter fence being extended too far — into the path of the blade for a 45* cut. As far as I can see, it didn’t even nick the aluminum miter fence.
The blade appears to have cut the workpiece to within about 1/64″ of the fence. I guess one of the teeth just barely touched the fence.
It was a little bit startling when it fired, but not as bad as I thought it would be. Took me a second to figure out what happened…
David
Replies
David, glad to see it wasn't a body part. I have a pretty nice notch cut into my Incra 1000 from forgetting to slide it over, like getting the first ding in a new car.
How's your blade?
Yeah, mine was the Incra 1000, too. It's new and I was in the process of calibrating it. It didn't occur to me that rotating it would also bring it into the path of the blade. But, with the pivot point a couple of inches behind the face of the fence, of course it did. I could find only the tiniest nick in the fence, and I'm not even sure it wasn't already there.
The blade, a Freud premier fusion, is deeply embedded in the aluminum stop block, so it's trashed. I plan to mount the whole assembly and display it as an objet d'art.
David
Edited 6/16/2008 9:12 am ET by baudi
David - You may already know this, but SawStop advertises that if the cartridge fires due to an accident, they'll replace it for free. I'm not sure if running a miter guage into the blade qualifies, but it's worth a phone call.
David
Actually, what they say is they'll replace it if it fires because of contact with skin, so this incident wouldn't qualify.
"I plan to mount the whole assembly and display it as an objet d'art." Too funny. Shop art!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Yeah. Course I gotta get a new blade and a new brake assembly first...
Man, that completely sucks... but I'm glad to hear you survived!
Lets add this little accident up:
$60 for a new cartridge
$50 to $100 for a new blade
6% to 8% tax
$1,000,000 for gas
Experience gained... Priceless
Ha, sounds like a MasterCard commercial in the making :)
Compare this to the price of an orthopedic surgeon!!
I totally agree... that's why I too have a new SawStop.
I am surprised that the dealers that sold the new SawStops didn't inform everyone about the new breaks..? The new breaks are made by a new manufacturer, I think in Texas. You can tell the new saws by the pin configuration, as mentioned earlier, or by checking the serial number on the back of your saw. The new serial numbers have "ICS" as part of the serial number.
My dealer didn't know about the new brake design either. I bought a replacement brake and brought it home, only to find out it wouldn't fit. Because of this thread, I knew why. Unfortunately, they didn't have any of the new ones in stock, so I called Sawstop and ordered one from them. It's supposed to be here tomorrow...
David
Years ago, I came within 1/8" of cutting into my thumb at the hand using a miter gauge. I didn't notice that I had already cut most of the way through the gauge when my father-in-law reached over and hit the shut-off switch of the saw. When I asked him why he did that, he just pointed to the blade, the miter gauge, and my thumb. Surely I would have stopped before cutting off my thumb, right??? He said that when he started for the switch, the blade hadn't yet reached the miter gauge.
I hope you bought him a beer!
Oh yeah!
Why does the blade have to be buried into the cartridge? If the blade is below the table surface, you are protected. Why ruin a blade with the cartridge stop. Why not let it coast to a stop?
It's the action of the blade hitting the block that pulls the blade down. Essentially the drop is powered by the spinning blade, the same force that stops the blade pulls it below the table. My guess is that this method probably drops the blade faster than most others.
Watch the slow-motion videos at the SawStop web site. For whatever reason, everyone seems to think that the blade dropping below the table is the primary safety feature. It's actually just a side effect of the real safety feature: the blade being stopped in a fraction of one revolution.
-Steve
Steve,
You have just described a need that should be filled by an engineer that wants to earn more money. Design a system that protects as well as presently BUT doesn't require anything more than to hit a re-set button to continue.
My minature mind thinks a pneumatic piston or similar/current spring that pulls the blade away from conductor contact and downward below the saw's surface would do the trick. Any time line of a machine can be interfaced to perform the desired task. Why ruin a blade?
Could it be that the mfg wants to sell stop cartridges????
Edited 6/19/2008 10:33 pm ET by DonC
"My minature mind thinks a pneumatic piston that pulls downward below the saw's surface would do the trick."
It would, but let's see what it would really take: You need to move a motor assembly that weighs upwards of 50 lbs. (call it 25 kg) a distance of at least 4" (call it 10 cm), all in no more than 5 msec. A simple calculation shows that you need to accelerate the assembly at a minimum rate of 8 km / s2. That's equivalent to a force of more than 800 times earth's gravity. (Another way to think of it is 0-60 MPH in 0.0035 seconds.)
Multiplying the mass of the motor by the acceleration gives you the required force from your piston: 200 kN. Assuming you want to run this thing off of a more or less conventional air compressor, you're limited to around 200 psi, or 1.4 MPa. This works out to a piston area of 0.14 m2, which comes out to around 16" in diameter. That's a whopping big piston.
Now, you need to be able to move that 16" piston by 4" in under 5 msec. The only way you're going to do that is with (a) a honkin' big air reservoir (several times the size of the piston's cylinder, and (b) an ultra-fast valve, one that will open in a small fraction of 5 msec (less than 1 msec, say).
Getting the picture? Even if you could build something like this (I'm not sure you can even get an air valve that will open that fast), it would cost several thousand dollars. And that's before you even start thinking about reliability. The SawStop mechanism is a model of simplicity and failsafe engineering. It's designed the way that airbag deployment and jet fighter ejection seat mechanisms are designed. These are all things that have to work EVERY SINGLE TIME.
Note that the SawStop mechanism shares another characteristic of these other mechanisms: catastrophic release of energy. The SawStop mechanism jams a chunk of metal into a spinning blade. An airbag mechanism explodes a sodium azide charge. An ejection seat first shatters the aircraft canopy by means of an explosive ribbon embedded in the acrylic, and then propels itself out of the aircraft via a rocket motor or explosive charge.
Why do these vastly different mechanisms all rely on the same underlying principle? Because it's the only way that engineers have been able to come up with mechanisms that are both fast enough and reliable enough. You'd be very, very hard-pressed to make your piston system anywhere near as reliable.
The SawStop mechanism is practical and cost-effective because stopping the rotation of a spinning blade requires far less energy expenditure than moving a 50-lb. motor assembly 4" in a straight line. In the SawStop, the time it takes for the motor to drop below the table is several times longer than the time it takes the blade to stop, and it only drops even that fast because the blade was stopped. In physics terms, the blade brake exerts a tremendous torque on the motor assembly, and some of the angular momentum dumped by the brake is transferred to the motor assembly as a whole.
"Could it be that the mfg wants to sell stop cartridges????"
Utter nonsense. The fewer cartridges that fire accidentally, the more saws they will sell.
-Steve
Steve,
I like your technical description of the time line and weight/mass of the motor blade ect.
My minibrain has been at work again. Perhaps one option would be to mount the blade on linear or curved linear bearings. You would still have the support like many miter saws. This would greatly reduce the effort needed to move the blade assembly.
Also if an engineer could incorporate some type of proximity or double switch system, it would extend the time lilne required for detection of a conductor in the path of the blade. It could be as simple as a switch in the throat plate ahead of the blade. If a conductor makes contact with it, the blade,on linear bearing, moves away and perhaps a warning light appears. If the conductor actually makes blade contact the blade still drops below the surface because it has an extended time line and easier to move blade assembly.
I'm no engineer, but it's fun just to speculate. The Saw Stop is a good idea, ideas for a different design are fun brain storm about. There are so many ways to "skin a cat."
Don - I'm an engineer. What Steve has said is correct - designing the sawstop to use the "drop below the table" as the main safety feature instead of the blade stop would be very difficult to engineer. However, it's not impossible.
The problem is that there's just no need to do so. The cost of a blade, even a premium blade like a Forrest or a Freud Fusion is not significant to the majority of SawStop's customers. The responses on this thread are an indication - quite a number of them indicate that they feel replacing the blade is no big deal, and they're glad to do it rather than the possible other outcome had they not been using a SawStop.
With only a small fraction of SawStop's customers complaining about a ruined blade, there's just no economic incentive for SawStop to add the engineering and development, additional materials, and possibly additional internal structure to accomodate a system that would provide the same safety features and save the blade. Sawstop saws are already at a significant price competitiveness disadvantage with other cabinet tablesaws, but this price differential is low enough that most owners were willing to pay it for the safety features and additional ruggedness of the saw. Adding another $2k on top of the price tag just to add a blade-saving mechanism makes no sense, either to the manufacturer or the end user.
"This would greatly reduce the effort needed to move the blade assembly."
Ah, but you see, my earlier analysis had already neglected any friction, etc. It assumed that the only impediment to motion was the inertial mass of the motor assembly itself. So, in that sense, we are already looking at a "best case" scenario. Improving the mounting will allow us to more closely approach that best case, but will never allow us to exceed it.
-Steve
Could it be that the mfg wants to sell stop cartridges????
I bet ALL the blade manufacturers are in on it too!
Don,You'd pay much more for this kind of system than for the few blades you might destroy in your lifetime of use. Valves, relays, and pistons fail. Using the mechanical momentum of the spinning blade to drop the blade assembly seems about as simple and reliable as it comes.I wonder how many owners/users never have a bad inadvertent fire of the mechanism? We've beat this SawStop issue like a dead horse. It costs more up font and it costs when it works according to the design.I wanted one when I first tried it about a year ago Mostly because of my young boys who are interested in WW. I can't locate a used one. And I am not likely going to invest $4200 in a TS until my personal economy moves out of recession!Greg
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At some point someone will design a system that does what SawStop does with out destroying the blade. THEN you will have a truly practical design. As it is now it is nice (and money being no object I would have one) But the cost of a miss fire is pretty high.
Look at cars for instance. We can design a car that can hit a wall at 235mph and the driver gets up and walks off (IndyCars) yet we do not use that tech for standard cars. Why? Because the car also is totaled when it takes a small hit. So the cost of accidental triggering the system (getting in a small fender bender that we do not need that level of safety for) is so high that it is not justified to build road cars like IndyCars.
Does this mean that SS is bad? No, but I also do no think that SS is the end item. I think that in 10 or 15 years (or what ever) we will have a MUCH improved design that when fired (by accident or not) only cost a few dollars to reset (say a new explosive cartridge) and does not destroy the blade. Can we do it now? I don't know (not and engineer) but then again 15 years ago I do not think many people thought the saw stop would ever be built. I can only hope that SawStop (and others) will spend the money to design the next generation of this devise.
And no this is not a hit on SawStop. This is just to point out that the cost of the accidents are high and as has been noted here they DO happen (how many have we had listed in this thread?) so it is only logical that someone will design a system that is cheaper to have accidently go off. First generations of tech are alwas expensive and alwas get better, do more, and cheaper as they go along.
Doug Meyer
Let's see.... Last I heard, SawStop has sold over 10,000 saws. They've also published some case studies showing commercial cabinet shops that have saved tens of thousands of dollars a year in insurance premiums, just by installing SawStops.
Those are the kinds of things you're pointing to when you say that the SawStop is "impractical," right?
I can't imagine how anyone can consider the brake mechanism triggering on contact with a miter gauge to be a misfire. If I had an Incra 3000 SE, and a SawStop prevented me from reducing that $200+ miter gauge to scrap metal, I'd call it a job well done, not a misfire. The next thing you know, people are going to be wanting the SawStop sensor to be able to distinguish between a homemade miter gauge built from spare parts and a commercially-made $250 aftermarket gauge.
-Steve
First off I NEVER said it was impractical. I just said that a version that does NOT destroy the blade would be a better design. And that given time we will get it.
As for a miss fire. Well if it is designed to save your finger then any time it fires besides that is a miss fire. Now you can argue over words all you want. But the thing is designed to save people and it does this. It also fires when it is not saving people. What do you want to call that? If I called it "A firing when the devise detects the presence of and object other then wood that is not in fact part of a human and thus while not something we desire to cut is in fact not something the devise was designed to protect, but that said substance may in fact be something that we would LIKE to protect but was not intended to be protected buy the saw stop" It would take a LONG time to say anything. So I call any fireing that is not involving the contact of a blade with skin a misfire (for lack of a better term) I suggest to you that since you do not like that term you come up with one of your own. I will concede that a TURE misfire would be one that fired when cutting wood and not in contact with anything else.
And a devise that destroyed the car totally but kept the Diver alive would be great, but it would not be practical if it fired when you back into a car in a parking lot. SO on one hand the SS is great (first devise to protect the user form stupidly cutting themselves while using a table saw) but on the other hand (like most first generation devises) it has an issue in that when used it tends to trash (generally expensive) saw blades.
So in short. A good device and a useful one, but one that COULD be made better by A) Figuring out a way to not destroy the blade, and
B) Figuring out a way to keep the cost down on the cartridge.
Now if that is in YOUR opinion calling the devise impractical. Then so be it.
Someday I will understand what makes so may people so nuts when talking about SS? I mean no matter what you say about it they go off the deep end unless you are bending over and kissing it's butt. Sad part is, it is a nice device but this kind of defense (when not needed) that attacks anyone that so much as suggests that SS is not PERFECT IN EVERY WAY just makes the devise look bad.
Heck I even said "THIS IS NOT AN ATTACK ON SS" what more do I need to do? Spend a thousand words saying how wonderful it is, before saying that it would be nice to have a version that does not trash a saw blade? Would that make people happy? Sheesh.
Get a life people.
The saw stop is a nice device that protects people from themselves. It seams to work well. It also will fire when not in contact with skin but in contact with other things. When fired it tends to destroy the saw blade and you have to buy a new cartridges (Cost that when combined equal or exceed the cost of some people's table saws) So when (not if) someone designs and improved version it would be nice to save the blade, and have a cheep cartridge replacement.
IF you can find anything I said wrong in that last paragraph let me know.
Doug
"First off I NEVER said it was impractical."
Quoting from your message 42221.33: "At some point someone will design a system that does what SawStop does with out destroying the blade. THEN you will have a truly practical design." [emphasis added]
"And a devise that destroyed the car totally but kept the Diver alive would be great, but it would not be practical if it fired when you back into a car in a parking lot."
See Straw man.
"Someday I will understand what makes so may people so nuts when talking about SS? I mean no matter what you say about it they go off the deep end unless you are bending over and kissing it's butt."
See Ad hominem.
Just like when one points out a factual error and the recipient goes off the deep end, eh? For the record, I'm not going off the deep end, just pointing out the gaping holes in your argument. Note that while I fully defend your right to spout nonsense, I will also take advantage of my corresponding right to show that it is nonsense.
"Get a life people."
My thoughts exactly. For future reference: If anything you said actually made sense, you wouldn't be receiving these kinds of replies from me. Your posts read like a textbook of fallacious reasoning. Think about it.
-Steve
Their are no gapping wholes. What I stated IS and was correct.
I never said it was impractical. And your post proves my point. I said that you would have a practical devise if it did not eat saw blades. The implication being (if any) that the cost of this devise when it goes off is a bit high for a lot of peaple. IF you infered from my statement that it would be practical to have a devise that does not eat blades to mean that the current one is not practical that is YOUR interpretation NOT my statement. Saying that in this day of high gas cost that a car that could get 100mpg would be practical does NOT imply that the current cares are not practical.
Now if you want to quote then try
As it is now it is nice (and money being no object I would have one) But the cost of a miss fire is pretty high
OR if you do not like that one try.
Does this mean that SS is bad? No
OR maybe
And no this is not a hit on SawStop. This is just to point out that the cost of the accidents are high and as has been noted here they DO happen
And just what factual error was pointed out in the post attacking my statement that a devise that did not eat saw blades would be nice? (Please note by your logic I have now said that SS is not nice because I said that it would be nice to have one that did not eat saw blades, so feel free to go off about that also)
I stated and will state that a device that eats saw blades (not to count the cost of the cartridge) when fired, and that fires when NOT in contact with Skin is not the be all and end all. At some point someone will (and should) design a version that does not eat saw blades. That is ALL I said (and I am not alone in saying it either). Yet ONCE AGAIN as soon as someone said something about the fact that SS could be better in rush the people that have to pick apart every single thing the poster says. And then pull out a dictionary to justify their version of what the post was saying. What is it with SS that causes this? Only thing close to this I see around here is the dread Fess Tool threads.
Fact I did not pick on SS. Fact I did not (in my original post) pick on anyone. Fact I said the SS is nice and that if not for money cost I would own one. Fact I said that SS will fire when contacting something other then skin (and they do) Fact SS when fired requires a replacement cartridge and often a new saw blade. Fact this cost is more then some people paid for their whole say. (Thus it may be to much for them to afford) Fact SS is the first ever break to do this for a table saw.
Conclusion Being as the SS is a nice first attempt to make a safer saw and being as the cost of it firing can be a bit high, it is logical to assume that someone at some point will figure out how to do the same basic job with out the cost of the lost blade. When (if) this happens it will be a nicer version. This in NO WAY belittles what SS has done. This is and was the point of the first post (feel free to quote me from the first post to "prove" me wrong about what I was posting the first time, as I am sure you, or someone will)
If you or anyone else wishes to continue to blast people that suggest that something(the SS in this case) can be improved. Feel free. If you wish to interpret what was said and or use text book definitions so you can make your point. Also feel free to do so. But that in no way changes what was the point of a post.
I will state one more time. The saw stop is nice but the cost of it going off and trashing a blade is a bit high for a lot of people and at some point someone will figure a way around this. When that happens it will be an improvement that may make the devise something that everyone can afford to have.
Feel free to disagree all you want but please refrain from trying to tell others what they meant by selectivly quoting or selectively replying to what was said.
And the two replies to my post just goes to prove that as I said as soon as you question anything about a SS someone will go after your post. I do not know why this is but as has been shown by this post it is the way of things around here. And frankly it is ridiculous. EVERYONE knows that what I said was not a slame on SS just as EVERYONE knows that a version of the SS that does not eat blades would be an improvement. (This is not a slam on SS either by the way)
And the fact that I feel the need to respond to this type of post just shows that on this forum things are out of control. Twist it all you want (use my own words if you like) but anyone reading the post (and even you) know that I was not finding fault with the SS. But was suggesting that the cost is beyond what some can/will spend and also suggesting that as with any new tech the cost will come down and the devise will get better. VCRs use to cost over $600 and did very little. They same will happen here. That was and is the point of my post. Twist it however you wish.
All you do is remind me of how peaceful the month was when I was off this forum (as I was out of town, and then had personal issues to deal with) and make me wonder if I would not be better off droping this forum and thus avoiding people that feel the need to pick on every little post people make even when the poster is not really disagreeing with the person doing the picking.
So please go back and read the last part of my first post (the part that said I was not against SS)
Doug Meyer (whom knows better then to get into these stupid arguments but who will not sit by while someone tries to tell me what I meant when I posted something)
lol, you people crack me up. "Practical" for one person can be "impractical" to another.
The SawStop is built, marketed and priced for the Pro market... When you make your living with a table saw, a $60.00 break cartridge and a $100.00 blade are nothing when faced with the risk of injury, lost work, wages, etc.
On the flip side, if WW is strictly a hobby, you may be able to cut-off your entire hand, miss a few days of work... and still get paid. (I fall in to this category... but I own a SS)
There have been many discussions about the SS and the pro's/cons of the break system... but I found the airbag discussion stimulating. I just want to add one thing to that discussion; When an airbag deploys, you cannot simply stuff it back in to place. We've had airbags for 30 years... and we still need to replace the entire thing when they fire. Darn those money-hungry airbag manufacturers! There has to be a cheaper way to save lives! "...but this is a nice first attempt..."
Here are a few other topics we could discuss:
If you could, why wouldn't you own a SawStop?
Of those that own a SS, don't you just hate all that safety?
Of everyone that has triggered the break, do you now regret your purchase?
Edited 6/20/2008 5:01 pm ET by Tbagn
Let's get down to the important stuff. It's a brake, not a break. Now, I'm going to take a break from this thread, before all the heated discussion about the SS brake and whether it is or isn't (im)practical brings insanity reigning (no, raining) down upon me.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Usually that misspelling irritates me too, but in this context it almost seems apropos. I did like Steve's anaolgy with the ejection seat, if the brake breaks it's a last ditch attempt to save flesh.
I'm wondering about the design change that does not appear to retrofit, whatever model one buys it would probably behoove one to buy a lifetime worth of spare cartridges.Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. -- P.J. O'Rourke
"When an airbag deploys, you cannot simply stuff it back in to place. We've had airbags for 30 years... and we still need to replace the entire thing when they fire."
Ever see an ejection seat deploy? An airbag's got nothing on those.
-Steve
Doug-I think part of the problem may be that, while you know what you mean, the rest of us have only your words on which to base our interpretation of what you mean.For example, when you say, "At some point someone will design a system that does what SawStop does with out destroying the blade. THEN you will have a truly practical design," your emphasis on the THEN, clearly indicates to me that you do not NOW believe the design to be practical.Protesting that, "I never said it was impractical" is not a very candid defense. We have only your words, and they say that the design will be practical only when it prevents destruction of the blade. Or is there some distinction in your mind between "not practical now" and "impractical?"If you want your thoughts to be better understood, I suggest that you think carefully about what you want to say before you start typing. I know I would like to understand what you have to say. It might also help if you were more concise in what you write. There seem to be an awful lot of elaborations and meanderings that don't really contribute to your message.
"Saying that in this day of high gas cost that a car that could get 100mpg would be practical does NOT imply that the current cares are not practical."
Yet another straw man. You really need to read up on that.
-Steve
I've had my SawStop for almost 2 years and have never had an accidental discharge. Being frugal (of Scots descent) I do make sure that nothing that could trip the mechanism contacts the blade before powering up.
Dick
It looks like software in the works could let the sawstop not fire when you hit a good conductor like your miter guage.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showpost.php?p=874210&postcount=12
That's good news for those who want to cut up their guages with a sawstop. However, if this is implemented, it will allow you to cut off your thumb, as long as the cut includes part of the miter guage first. Apparently, an alert father in law is a more sophisticated safety device.
*if this is implemented, it will allow you to cut off your thumb, as long as the cut includes part of the miter guage first*I am curious why you would assume that.Cheers,Peter
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
I assumed that because it distinguishes flesh from metal by the better conductivity of metal rapidly and fully dissipating charge placed on the blade. Once it's in contact with metal, there wouold be no way to detect subsequent flesh contact while the metal is still in contact.I suppose the best response of the saw on detecting metal would then be to turn off the motor without firing the stop block, perhaps also allowing the blade to drop, and that would contradict my assertion. I do trust the sawstop guys to think of things like this.I do stick to my assertion that an alert father in law is a pretty sophisticated safety device. It probably takes a lot of things into account that the saw can't, such as how well you treat his daughter.
Edited 6/17/2008 2:34 pm by AlanWS
Interesting. I would love to know Sawstop's response to that. I wonder if they read the posts here?Cheers,Peter
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
Alan,I think you're right. The machine would probably not fire if it hit the metal prior to the finger. That said your idea of killing the power is great, the don't give any indication what happens. I don't know if anybody really wants to cut their mitre gauge in half with their $100 saw blade.As for the father in law... I'll stick with the Sawstop.
Yeah, in the long run... the father in law is MUCH more expensive!
I've had my SawStop about 4 months and have been very pleased with it, the ease of adjusting it, the power (5hp), the ease of moving it on the mobile base, etc. A couple of weeks ago I was using a new box joint jig that I bought at Woodcraft, it was aluminum. The dado blade barely nicked the jig, the mechanism fired. Wow.
Well, of course I had to get another cartridge, but the DeWalt dado blade was fine. Now I "bypass" the safety feature when using the jig.
the cartridge and blade were a bit of a hassle to remove, together, but it took only about ten minutes.
An expensive lesson; I'm still glad I have the SawStop.
I think all the fires due to mitre gauges can be a lesson for all of us... Make sure you have proper clearance when using the gauge and and jigs (metal or not). I had a friend once crosscut a brand new osbourne mitre gauge, so now I always check.
As for accidents. I've only ever seen one TS accident, and a minor one at that. My Grand Father in-law cut a perfect kerf out of the end of his thumb. No bone damage, but he was lucky that we arrived at the house when we did. It required a serious amount of stitches. He was working alone in his workshop (he wasn't suppose to...), and of course had reached the age when he was no longer able to drive.
This thread is making my head spin (I just read the whole of it). I guess none of you ever called Sawstop to ask if the blades can be recovered - I have and they can.
Using a block of wood, knock the aluminum cartridge off the blade. Inspect - if there is a crack in the blade, it is not repairable (rare, I believe) and if not, take the blade to a professional sharpener and have it inspected and repaired if need be. I called Forrest (Who I send my blades to for sharpening) and they said yes, they had repaired Sawstop blades and they can even rebuild broken teeth."Sawstop" also told me that they were very close to coming out with a system that can differentiate between flesh and metal.One less expense to consider...
This is contrary to what is posted on their website.
"10. Can the blade be reused if the safety system brake is activated?
No. The SawStop safety system drives an aluminum brake pawl into the teeth of the spinning blade with a great deal of force and speed. This abrupt stop compromises the integrity of the blade metal and teeth. The blade should be replaced."Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. -- P.J. O'Rourke
It's true that the SawStop site states bluntly that fired-upon blades should be replaced. But in practice, quite a number of users have not done so. I certainly wouldn't re-use a braked blade until the manufacturer or a suitable substitute entity had examined the blade, but it appears that a noticeable percentage of the blades survive to cut again.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I would not be afraid of a blade that had been magnafluxed after that kind of a stop but in practical terms I would be happy I was in one piece and just replace the blade.
I was only pointing out that contrary to what Phoebe heard from someone at SS, they do not recommend reusing the blade.
It would be a shame to save your finger and lose an eye. Blades aren't that expensive.Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. -- P.J. O'Rourke
We use Forrest blades at the school shop that I work out of - after the second misfire due to a miter fence (in two weeks!) and at the end of the semester budget, I looked at the blades imbedded in aluminum, saw that only 3 or 4 teeh were affected and called Sawstop. I knew this had to be going on all over the world. Forrest blades are expensive - and they have a very long life normally. Then I called Forrest. They were acquainted with the problem and matter of factly said 'just send it in".The Sawstop seems to be an excellent machine that also has amazing safety features - this is now one less reason to be wary of it.Edited 6/21/2008 7:59 am ET by Phoebe in AshevilleEdited 6/21/2008 8:00 am ET by Phoebe in Asheville
Edited 6/21/2008 5:17 pm ET by Phoebe in Asheville
"I knew this had to be going on all over the world."
I'm doubtful that is the case, at least for now Phoebe. SawStop products aren't sold to us Europeans as far as I know; or at least I've never seen one advertised for sale by any of the tool dealers here in GB. That's possibly because all goods, including woodworking equipment such as SawStop, need to get a European CE rating, but I don't really know if that's why the SawStop doesn't feature in this market. There could be another perfectly good reason.
I think SawStop sales may, for now, be limited to north America, Australasia, and bits of Asia. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
So true - there would have to be a Sawstop for the the trigger to be activated. Let me clarify - wherever Sawstops are, activation from metal is possible.
"It would be a shame to save your finger and lose an eye." Nicely put.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Now wouldn't that be ironic that a person would spend 4K on a super safe saw only to not use safety glasses?
Is'nt it ironic someone would pay $4K for a safer saw and balk at replacing a $100 blade when the saw manufacturer states in writing that the blade must be replaced.
I'd bet the schools liability attorney would have some choice words about that philosophy. Your insurance carrier would be none too impressed either.
There are a lot of places a failed blade could puncture that are not covered by safety glasses.
The fact that you would risk students safety to save a saw blade does not speak well to your commitment to safety. To choose to reuse it in ones own shop is one thing, to expose employees or students to unnecesary risk is another.
You would probably be money ahead to leave the blade imbedded in the brake block to use as a teaching aid accompanied with a tag showing the cost of both parts.
Attached is a Close-up of a conjunctival puncture caused by a piece of a fractured circular saw blade. It does not take much imagination to picture it in an abdomen or other soft spot.Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. -- P.J. O'Rourke
Dear dgreen,First of all I am not the teacher. Second,Sawstop told me that if the blades were checked professionally and found to be intact they could certainly be put back into service. Forrest was also fine with this - and acted as though it was already being done routinely. I am a great promoter of safety. The reason I joined the discussion at all was because I could see that the possible loss of a blade was becoming an arguing point against using the Sawstop.For many woodworkers the loss of a $100 blade represents a big chunk (or all) of that days wages - more if the saw is unusable until a replacement cartridge (and blade) is obtained. I know the Instructor at the school that I work out of was ready to put that TS out of commission until the next budget came in (several months away and there are only 2 TS in the shop). He was clearly distressed and obviously regretting the purchase of the Sawstop. In his thirty years at the College, there has never been a TS accident, you see. He bought the saw primarily because he thought it was very well made.I called Sawstop, spoke with them about the problems we were having and got some "loaner" cartridges to get us through the semester. Then I got on the horn to Forrest - because they handle our blades and sharpening and are well known experts.None of us, not even the teacher questioned the safety and validity of what we learned.
"For many woodworkers the loss of a $100 blade represents a big chunk (or all) of that days wages"
A woodworker making $26K a year is not going to buy a SawStop or Forrest blades. He probably won't even be buying food.
I hope your first injury/lawsuit in 30 years is not because you were too cheap to replace a possibly compromised blade per the saw manufacturers written instructions for your "super safe" saw.
"None of us, not even the teacher questioned the safety and validity of what we learned."
The plaintiffs attorney will love that!
You have arguably made shop operations less safe than they were prior to the acquisition of the SawStop, on the other saw the only damage would have been to the miter gauge, now you have introduced the possibility of injury from a damaged blade.
Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. -- P.J. O'Rourke
Edited 6/21/2008 8:24 pm by dgreen
I am sorry but a blade inspected, sharpened and sent back from Forrest is unquestionably top of the line and probably safer than the other blades around the shop that have not been professionally inspected lately.
Don, we get your point.
Is there some reason you would not believe Forrest if they inspected a blade and gave it the thumbs up?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
First I'd have too know how a
blade is "professionally" inspected.
Ive experienced blades that I could find nothing wrong that
when run would heat up and throw wood back at you every time.
"First I''d have to know how the blade is professionally inspected."
Forest, being a leading manufacturer of saw blades probably inspects it like all the other blades it puts out. Do you actually have to know every intricate operation in the manufacture of a saw blade before you would use it?
Edited 6/21/2008 10:20 pm ET by Tinkerer3
I would in this context. Probably is a little too uncertain. We're not talking about a new blade but rather one that has been severely abused.Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. -- P.J. O'Rourke
No, I said I'd want to know how they inspect them before
I'd trust a blade that had gone through that sort of drastic
accident.
A little different.
Too many unknowns, was a note attached to the blade to inform Forrest that it had been slammed at full speed into a block of aluminum? Did the note make it to the person doing the inspection and repair? Were the gullets magnafluxed to reveal any microscopic cracks?
As I said what I might choose to do in my own shop is one thing, employees and students are another. When the saw manufacturer states in writing to discard the blade I think it is indefensible legally and morally to expose the student or employee to the risk of harm however remote just to save $100 or less.
If you read the quote from SawStop you see that they are concerned about the plate as well as the tips. I have no doubt that missing tips can be rebrazed safely, I would be more concerned with a crack not visible to the eye that would compromise the integrity of the entire tooth.
Why make a safer saw that you spent extra money to have the enhanced safety less safe to save a little money? Chuck the blade.
The cost of replacement and spare cartridges and blades should have been factored into the budget, the fact that they were not means the administration was incompetent. To idle a machine for a season due to lack of budgeting for spares would not be an option in a commercial shop. To inflict needless risk both to students well being and to the financial wellbeing of the institution due to potential lawsuits seems rather shortsighted to put it nicely.Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. -- P.J. O'Rourke
What SawStop puts in writing is stated to cover their collective behinds. And it makes total sense. Personally, I probably would replace the blade. However, apparently in real life, they give some carefully conscribed leeway. I'm sure that's based on their experience over time with blades that have been braked and survived to cut again, safely.
It's somewhat like the situation with Penn State's overhead blade guard, errrrrr dust collector. The do not call it a blade guard, their literature makes it clear it's not a blade guard but a dust collector. The disclaim themselves 6 ways to Sunday, but low and behold what is it used for by virtually everyone who buys it?? A blade guard, no doubt. What do you think they intended it to be used for when them designed and marketed it?? A blade guard with dust collection built in. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
If it were your student or employee would you replace the blade or roll the dice?Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. -- P.J. O'Rourke
From Penn States website. Note the word safety and the part number is TSGuard.
The Ideal Solution for Table Saw Safety and Dust ControlWhen connected to a dust collection system, the TSGUARD captures the dust thrown up by your table saw blade. Us it on any table saw with an extension table or mount it to your ceiling. It is very easy to install and easily swings out of the way. A unique counter-balance allows for fast and easy positioning.
Seems to me they are promoting it as a safety guard that collects dust.
Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. -- P.J. O'Rourke
Perhaps things have changed since I bought mine. The "owner's manual" is very specific, leaving out the word guard completely, emphasizing it as a dust collection device.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Could very well be. I wish I'd bought the Excalibur overarm instead of the Delta, it would sure be nice to have a 4" port on the guard. Would probably have saved me some money too. Oh well, maybe when I get rich and famous I'll switch.Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. -- P.J. O'Rourke
I know what you mean about the guard and a dust port I ran across a Unigard online the other day, priced quite well. But it doesn't have a port, so I passed. I have a feeling my Penn State won't stretch long enough for the Unisaw's table, so I either have to hang it from the ceiling, or cut a notch in the table to allow for the pole.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Apparently things have not changed too much, the online version of the owners manual still specifically disclaims being a safety guard!Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. -- P.J. O'Rourke
dgreen:Forrest, like all mfgs. is subject to product liability. If you want to ensure they are completely appraised of the situation, pay the extra postage and ship the blade embedded in the cartridge, so there is not doubt as to how the blade met its fate. I agree, I would use the blade as a trophy not return it to use. Utilize more economical blades if cost is that great a factor in the budget.Best regards,Joe
Can you be sure that these "more economical blades" that probably may not have had the safety testing are safer than the less better blade that has been rehabilitated? Just wondering. Anything we do after we get up in the morning has it's hazards. If we only had a way of knowing when an accident is eminent.
Edited 6/22/2008 7:56 pm ET by Tinkerer3
The SawStop will stop with contact from either metal or flesh no matter which is contacted first. If one would like to use their saw to cut non-ferrous metal such as aluminum with a carbide bit the safety feature needs to be disengaged. This of course disengages the protection the saw was designed to provide, therefore SawStop does not recommend doing so unless you absolutely have to.
Years ago my dad spent a long day in the shop and it was the "last cut of the day" that nearly cost him his thumb. Luckily it only cost him a trip to the emergency room and lots of stitches. No doubt, the Sawstop will soon be considered one of the greatest advances in woodworking technology. The cost of a new blade, etc. is nothing when compared to being nicknamed "Stubbs."
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