Replies

1. 
   Ronaway | Oct 15, 2008 09:37pm | #1

   Keeping your jointer and planer set up well and maintaining the knifes can really help toward relieving you from some of your sanding chores. It could well keep you from having to sand with grits as coarse as 60, 80 and possibly could eliminate the need for the 120 grit also. Another way to reduce sanding is to do some of the surface prep with hand planes. The surface a well tuned hand plane leaves could well have you going directly to 220 grit sand paper and I like producing shavings a lot more than producing dust. It'll help you keep your lungs and your shop cleaner as well.

   Ron Brese

   If you're too open minded your brains will fall out.
2. 
   hammer1 | Oct 16, 2008 04:06pm | #2

   Generally, I just hand sand with 220, that's it. No power sanders, no succession of grits, just what it takes to clean up the surface and ease sharp corners. I will use finer grits on the finish to level and remove dust nibs when necessary but I quickly go to 0000 steel wool and/or synthetic pads. In some cases, a large table top, e.g., I may use polishing compound but not when there are lots of nooks and crannies to trap the compound or unfilled open grain.

   Time is money. There's no sense in making extra work if it's not needed. It's easy to spot a piece that has been over worked. Keeping things clean and crisp improves the appearance. I do the majority of my flat sanding with this small leather faced block and Norton 3X 220. Those two pieces is all I needed to do a fairly large cabinet. If you are burning edges with a router bit or buying dressed lumber, it may take a succession of coarse grits. It's better to improve your technique than to spend time correcting problems. It takes ten times the effort to remove a 60 grit scratch as it did to put the scratch in. The naked eye doesn't pick up on scratches from 220. You also get better color when using stains than you would with 400 grit. The slicker the surface, the less tooth the finish has to adhere to.

   Beat it to fit / Paint it to match

   
3. 
   RMillard | Oct 16, 2008 05:14pm | #3

   I will only very rarely go lower than 180 (never more coarse than 180 with a power sander). I prefer to start with 220. On raw wood I stop at 320.

   Rob Millard

   http://www.americanfederalperiod.com

    

4. 
   bones | Oct 16, 2008 05:34pm | #4

   I generally start at 180 then 220 and end at 320. If I have end grain I go one grit higher to smooth finish intake. 

   Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases:
   If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it.
   And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
   
5. 
   SARGEgrinder47 | Oct 16, 2008 08:01pm | #5

   I hand scrape anything large enough to hand scrape. If working with soft-wood I then use 180.. stop and wash-coat it with distilled water to raise the grain and then hit it with 220 to take the raised grain off and burnish the pores on soft-wood to some degree.

   On hard-wood I generally hit it after hand scraping with 180 and leave it alone depending on the density of the hard-wood. On some tough.. wild grain I will start with 120-150-180 but.. that's an exception as the hand scraping will usually take care of normal stock.

   Sarge..

1. 
   WillGeorge | Oct 19, 2008 06:53pm | #12

   Sarge.. NOT knocking what you posted. I think correct for most folks.

   I LOVE my handscrapers. However, think I have said before, a rarely go for the 'proper way' of sharpening them. Takes alot of time! I have my mill file handy and just use a 90 degree sharp edge on my hand scrapers. OK, for some strange woods I go through the whole ritual of sharpening one!

   I have one grade of sandpaper.. 120 grit... I scrape and scrape.. Level off with 120 grit on a hardwood block Or some profile block.

   Back to the scraper to smoooothes.. it. After that, I oil to see how it 'looks'..

   Green or Gray/Grey? 3M pads with oil from there. NO I NEVER try for a Museum quality finish!

1. 
   SARGEgrinder47 | Oct 20, 2008 12:21am | #13

   If it works for an individual.. don't fix it. :>)

   Sarge..

6. 
   K1500 | Oct 16, 2008 08:24pm | #6

   If it needs belt sanding because of tearout or whatever (RO=random orbit)...

   80 belt, 120 belt, 80 RO, 120 RO, 220 RO

   That's the worst case.  If it just needs a little work...

   120 RO, 220 RO

   Most of the time...

   80 RO, 120 RO, 220 RO

7. 
   HowardAcheson | Oct 17, 2008 12:16am | #7

   Sanding wood--hard or soft--beyond 220 does little more than burnish the wood making staining difficult. This is particularly true if you are using a pigment stain which sits on the surface and relies on "nooks and crannies" to impart color. Softer more porous woods can be sanded to to 220 but harder less absorbent woods may stain best if only sanded to 150.

   A number of years ago a large cabinet/custom furniture shop I was involved with did series of adhesion tests with various finishes and sealers. As part of this test we explored adhesion based on sanding grit. We found about the same adhesion up to 180 - 220. Beyond 220 adhesion dropped off due to burnishing of the underlying wood particularly when non-linear machine sanders were used. This was tested on birch panels. We also found that the resulting smoothness of the first coat of finish was not materially affected by the smoothnes of the underlying wood for sandpaper grits between 150 - 220.. The smoothest surface substrate for final finishes was obtained by sanding lightly after the first coat of finish was applied and dry. Which makes the case for a thinned first coat of finish.

   So our conclusion was that sanding beyond 180-220 was not necessary and could be actually detrimental.

   But, most important was that there was a big appearance affect if the surface was not HAND sanded in the direction of the grain using the highest grit used on the sanding machine. A flat pad sander produced a much flatter surface than a ROS. However, both required final hand sanding with the grain for optimum appearence. If not hand sanded, swirl scratches could show. Final hand sanding using a sanding pad in the direction of the grain is a must.

   To carry it one step further, sanding at 320-400 grit after the first coat and subsequent coats was the optimum. No improved appearence was noticed by between coat sanding beyond 400 for varnish. 400 was the sweet spot for thinner finishes. Between coat sanding was always done by hand whether for flattening or for adhesion.

   I think you will find similar thoughts in the popular finishing books but YMMV.

   Finally, the first coat of ANY finish will raise little shards of wood and cause them to raise whether the surface was sanded, planed or scraped. When the first coat of finish dries these hardened shards are what causes the surface to feel rough. Sanding with 320 paper will remove these hardened shards and subsequent coats will go on smoother. So, smoothness counts after the first coat of finish, but not much before that.

   The machine finish determines the starting grit. Jointers, planers, belt sanders etc, should leave a finish that allows starting with 100 grit. From there, go to 120 grit and sand until the marks from the prior grit are gone, then move to 150 and finish at 180 grit.

   Plywood is factory sanded to 180 grit. Therefore, it's best to not sand plywood except with 180 grit and sand by hand. Get the first coat of finish on and then sand with 320. That way you are sanding the finish, not the wood. This avoids sanding through today's very thin surface veneer.

   Howie.........
1. 
   SantaFeTom | Oct 17, 2008 12:25am | #8

   Good info, thanks. I don't really sand the raw wood to 400 but do sand between coats with it. I stop sanding wood at 200 but never thought about followup hand sanding in the direction of the grain.

2. 
   SARGEgrinder47 | Oct 17, 2008 06:59pm | #9

   A question for you Howie... with soft-wood I make a sweep with distilled water before sanding the last coat which is 220 with soft-wood. I only go to 180 on hard-wood but don't use the wash-coat of distilled water. But.... after I apply either stain or finish.. I lightly hand sand with the grain with 360 Abra-net which I feel is equivalent to around 320 grit sand-paper as it seems to be very aggressive.

   The question is... on the soft-wood where I wash-coat it with distilled water to intentionally raise the grain.. have I added an additional step since I do a light sanding with 360 Abra-net after the first coat of stain or finish applied in your opinion?

   Maybe it is and even though it does no harm.. I may simply be tacking on an additional step and wasting my time by doing so?

   Regards...

   Sarge..

1. 
   HowardAcheson | Oct 17, 2008 10:40pm | #10

   Here is something a friend of mine put together and I wholeheartedly subscribe to.QUOTEI must advance a totally different point of view with respect to your question and to the whole issue of "raised grain". First, in my view, you should never sand a surface after you have applied stain or dye, including water-soluble dye. The color imparted by either of these goes only a few cells deep (in the case of pigment it remain on the surface) and any sanding risks creating a streaked look. But beyond that, unless you intend to use an oil only or wax only finish (neither of which I would recommend) raised grain is not an issue in the first place.Let's first understand what raised grain is; raised grain is created by sanding and to a lesser extent planning or scraping. As you smooth the wood with any of these operations you cut wood fibers such that they are free to flap about (they are no continuous). When you apply ANY liquid the loosened fibers absorb the liquid, swell, and protrude upward from the surface of the wood. When the liquid evaporates the fibers remain in their upright position. It is a bit (though not exactly) like your hair behaves when you get it cut short—it doesn't lay flat, but wants to stick up.To a certain extent this problem (if it even is a problem) can be alleviated by pre-raising the grain. This is done by sanding to your final grit and then lightly wetting the surface with water to intentionally raise the grain. When the water evaporates you can then very lightly sand to remove the raised wood fibers. The theory is that once raised (and removed) the fibers won't raise again under finish. The problem is that the theory is correct; but, it is the execution that is flawed. It is true that the fibers that rose before won't rise again. But, when you cut them away with the light sanding you expose new fibers that were previously held in place by the ones you just removed. These will rise when you apply your finish.In short, the whole issue of pre-raising the grain, and raised grain following the application of a water-soluble dye is (in my never to be humble opinion) a big so-what. It (pre-raising the grain) is a finishing step to be executed by folks with entirely too much time on their hands. Why? Simple! Here are a couple of clues. What happens to the raised grain when you apply your first coat of finish? Some folks like to refer to this coat as the "sealer" coat because it seals the grain. Many of us, when using oil-based finishes prefer to thin the first coat more than succeeding coats so that it will better penetrate the grain. Any thoughts yet..?The first coat locks the raised fibers in place so that when you sand prior to applying the next coat of finish you remove them and level the surface. You didn't need to go to all the effort of either preventing them or removing them. They don't cause a problem (other than to those among us that believe the wood should be baby butt smooth at the end of all finishing steps). They are no more an issue than any of the other causes of roughness in your first finish coat.For what little it may be worth, I sand to 180g or 220g, or scrape, depending on the wood; apply my dye, and then apply the finish. I never engage in pre-raising the grain and I emphatically emphasize that the color coat, however applied, should not be sanded. The bottom line, don't spend a lot of time agonizing over the first step in your finishing schedule. The color coat requires only a visual inspection—did you get the color you wanted and is it consistent and evenly applied. How it feels is irrelevant. Get on with your topcoat making sure that it is properly thinned and applied so as to minimize air bubbles, dust, brush or wiping marks, etc. and let the finish level itself by attending to proper technique.END QUOTEHowie.........

1. 
   SARGEgrinder47 | Oct 18, 2008 05:48pm | #11

   I think I agree with your friend... I just used gel stain on QS oak on a mission coffee table. I don't use gel stain or any stain often but in this case I did. I do a lot in shellac but I used wipe-on poly in this case as the table top takes much abuse from nieces and nephews in that manner of spilled drinks from non-attention.

   I did not raise the grain on a haunch to see what would happen and did not sand lightly with 360 Abra-net before stain was applied and allowed to dry for two days.. then one coat of 70-30 cut poly was applied. A very light sand with 360 Abra-net and then another coat of poly cut 60-40. A light sand and then 4 more coats of poly cut 50-50.

   I did not notice any difference in the grain raise after the original stain leading me to believe your friend's theory may be more than a theory. I do believe there are many myths out there that may require a bit of un-raveling and sometimes you just have to take a gamble to do just that.

   Thanks for your view...

   Sarge..