Replies

1. 
   AdamK | Mar 18, 2004 07:25pm | #1

   I made a bed with curly maple panels.  When I went to finish them, I experimented with anyline dyes.  As I didn't want much of a color change (only wanted to accentuate the curl) I used a wash that was the strength of tea.  I was not pleased with the results.  The clear planed surface became cloudy/fuzzy.  I instead stuck with a planed surface and a coat of BLO before padding with shellac.  I don't know how dark your making the piece (three coats may be excessive) but you should experiment on a scrap.

   Adam

   My site: http://home.cogeco.ca/~akropinski

2. 
   Clay | Mar 19, 2004 08:36am | #2

   You would have to check with the recipe's author to be sure but to me it sounds as though they are referring to some sort of lightened area where they sand back the stain to create a "highlight".  I would use about 320 grit for sanding between coats (in any case).  I also often like to use the plastic abrasive wool pads for burnishing the surfaces after water staining ... especially after the second coat (I very rarely do a third coat of stain).  The scrubbers are more gentle than the 320 grit paper but it too can be used with a very light hand.  The paper can do a bit more aggressive smoothing where needed by simply pressing harder and making a few more passes.  I think that 220 grit is too coarse for the kind of high quality surface you are after.

1. 
   ktkamm | Mar 19, 2004 03:41pm | #3

   Thanks for the input. I think you are right about the highlights. What color pad do you use and where have you been able to find a source for them? 

   Thanks again.

1. 
   Clay | Mar 19, 2004 05:41pm | #4

   Woodcraft has some gray ones that work well but I usually use large white thick pads that I get from Home Depot.  They are made for the square vibrating floor sanders and Home Depot rents those so they carry the pads.  I buy them and cut them up.  I like their thickness.

3. 
   VeniciaL | Mar 19, 2004 06:24pm | #5

   KTKAMM,

   It's hard to understand the instructions that are included with your stain.

   In any case, it's really not as problematic as you're anticipating. You won't affect any clarity that you've obtained by planing when you remove the fuzz that's raised by the stain if you use 320 grit or 400 grit gently. You only have to skim over the surface and the raised whiskers will be gone. I advise open coat or waterproof paper, not nylon pads.

   Another techique is to use steel wool, held loosely and gently whisked (not rubbed) over the surface against the grain. The wool will hook the raised fibers and pull them away. Very nice. There's an article in some issue of FWW years back describing this. I can't remember which issue.

   I always try to use alcohol-based dye so I can use a dilute shellac wash (about a 1 # cut) to raise the grain and act as a dye/sealer coat. Sanding the grain-raising shellac wash surface is a delight - better than sandiing the raised grain of just bare wood - and results in the ultimate surface for subsequent finishing.

   VL

4. 
   VeniciaL | Mar 22, 2004 11:18pm | #6

   Kieran Kammerer sent me this question by email. I suggested that we post it here so that this information stays in the thread.

   "Given I am using a water based dye, would it seem reasonable to apply

   the dye (probably two coats, remove the fuzz as directed between

   coats, give it sveral coats of BLO and then use shellac either alone

   or followed by urethane to finish off.

   "If you use BLO, how many coats would you recc and how long between

   coats and how long would you wait aftr final coat of BLO.

   "Does this seem like a reasonable approach or would you recc some other

   series of steps.

   "also, do you have any rec regarding brand of varnish and varnish vs

   numerous coats of shellac to protect a kitchen table top.

   I'll give my reply in the next message. Other replies solicited.

   VL

1. 
   VeniciaL | Mar 23, 2004 12:23am | #7

   Kieran,

   I believe you are getting too many processes confused in your workflow here.

   The job as you now describe it is dependent on 2 major factors.

   1. you are going to use a water based dye at the beginning.

   2. your final finishing material is going to be a varnish.

   Here's what i would do:

   Apply the water based dye and sand appropriately between applications. Sand gently. 320 grit will be good. Just remove the fuzz. If you do not cut into fresh wood with the first sanding and get rid of all the raised grain from the first application, there will be little or no additional fuzz from the second dye application.

   Use filler if necessary for open-pored wood.

   No BLO. I don't know why you would want to use that.

   No shellac. There is no advantage to using shellac. You don't need to seal the wood. You will not improve the adhesion of the varnish. I strongly recommend against shellac as a finish for a kitchen or dining room table. It's my favorite finish, but not for this application.

   I would use shellac (french polish) or lacquer for a fine furniture dining room table that I know is not going to be subjected to hard use.

   Use Behlen's Rock Hard Varnish for any table you know is going to get hard use (or if you are not sure). Apply the first coat diluted with up to an equal amount of solvent. I don't use an equal amount of solvent, but many do. It's not critical, but the first coat should be dilute. I use Naphtha but you can use mineral spirits (paint thinner). The odorless variety is the slowest to evaporate, the smelly kind the next fastest and Naptha is the quickest. I think naptha accellerates the evaporation of the existing solvent in the varnish, but I could be wrong, I'm not a chemist.

   The common wisdom with varnish is that subsequent coats will adhere without scuffing the earlier coat if you recoat no longer than 48 hours. Wait about (but not less than) 48 hours. Then level the surface with 400 grit, using a sanding block with a rubber pad, a rubber block or a block and a felt pad. Do not lubricate the abrasive paper. You need to see the effects on the varnish surface. Sand with the wood grain. You want to take down all the peaks of the first thin coat. You will not be able to perfectly level the coat. There will be shiny patches of "valleys" of varnish between the dulled, leveled peaks. If you try to get all the valleys dull, you will cut through to bare wood somewhere.

   Next, apply the varnish full-strength. Wait at least 48 hours, or longer until the surface feels hard. Level with dry 400 grit. Stop if the surface does not sand easily, producing fine varnish powder. Level the peaks and hills. The shiny valleys will be much smaller this time. The entire surface will be more uniform as indicated by shiny valleys of very small area.

   Again, apply Varnish full-strength. Wait 2 weeks. Level with dry 400 grit. The entire surface should abrade evenly with no shiny areas at all.

   Apply the final coat diluted about 30%. Wait 2 weeks. Level the surface carefuly with 400 grit lubricated with dishwasher detergent/water (a few drops in 8 oz). Check it frequently for an even scratch pattern (dry it off to do so). When evenly abraded, switch to 600 grit and lubricant. Abrade until an even scratch patern.

   When evenly abraded, switch to automobile rubbing compound (red). Achieve an even, matte ("ground glass") finish. Then use polishing compound. There are several grit levels depending on the final clarity and shine you want. Depending on your energy and diligence, you can polish Rock Hard to a diamond-like appearance.

   That finish will last for generations before it needs a little touch-up.

   VL

1. 
   ktkamm | Mar 23, 2004 12:50am | #8

   Venecia,

   Thanks for the input and detailed instructions. My reason for thinking about the BLO is to help bring out the figure/curl in the maple. On the sample pieces I have been doing, I am drawn much more to those scraps with a coat of BLO. It is my understanding so far that the BLO will not interfere with the varnish application. Is that correct? When you do apply the rock hard varnish, I assume you are brushing it on. are you using a special brush.

   Thanks again for your insight and direction.

   PS: I would love to see any piece where you have applied the above finish.

   Kieran

1. 
   VeniciaL | Mar 23, 2004 01:41am | #9

   Kieran,

   You should be able to get the color and figure out of the maple with the stain or dye. I didn't realize you were using BLO also for that reason. No, it won't interfere at all with the varnish.

   Maple yellows under many finishes. I do everything I can to avoid the yellow look which I really dislike. Many finishes also yellow and add to the change. Nitrocellulose lacquer and some varnishes yellow. Shellac does not. I don't think the Rock Hard yellows.

   BLO will yellow maple so I avoid it. Actually I don't stain or dye maple at all. I finish it with super blond shellac only.

   Use a natural-bristle brush to apply varnish.

   From your questions I take it you don't have experience doing this. Varnish has an undeserved reputation for difficulty. It's not that hard, but there is technique to be learned and it does take practice. I think there are tutorials and videos on this site and elsewhere. It's not something that usually can be successfully applied the first few times you try. I recommend practicing on scraps prepared just like the final piece will be. Don't take shortcuts.

   Once the varnish knows you know what you are doing, it will go on smoothly and level beautifully. Until then, you may find yourself cursing it for its obstinacy. It can get discouraging. Don't over brush it. Except for the first and last very dilute coats, you flow it on in one direction and leave it be. Skilled workers can brush across it ONCE, but that is really tempting a finish flaw. You must have a dust-free place to work, and you MUST have good light at just the right angle so you can see the varnish flowing on. All this becomes second nature with practice.

   VL

1. 
   ktkamm | Mar 24, 2004 04:45am | #10

   Venicia,

   Thanks for taking the time to give me your input. I have ordered some of the Behlens and I will let you know how it all turned out.

   Kieran