Replies

1. 
   walnutjerry | Mar 04, 2006 06:47am | #1

   If it is priced per bd. ft.  it does not really matter,  there are times that 8/4 is priced higher per bd.ft.   Also you ususally have to pay a premium fpr S2S because it requires more machining .             Cheers!!

    

1. 
   ohcomeon | Mar 04, 2006 09:50pm | #3

   That was my assumption, but w/ my lumber yard that is not the case.  The 8/4 rough is 7.65/BF and the 4/4 s2s is 5.65/bf.  I expected the s2s to be more $$ since, as you noted, there is more work in preparing it.

   I anticipated getting the 8/4 and resawing it, but it ends up being significantly more money when you start buying any real quantity.

   Another source of irritation; is it typical for a lumber yard to round up the BF calc to a whole number?  I bought 15.67 BF the other day and got charged for 16 BF.  The timre before they also rounded up.  They also don't sell their misc offcuts at a discount.  I bought a piece of 16" walnut 8/4 and got charge for 2 BF when it was a scrap and was about 1.6 BF.  I guess I need to try to bargain with them, but I doubt they will budge w/ the small amounts I buy.  Annoying.

   JH

1. 
   walnutjerry | Mar 05, 2006 01:30am | #4

   10-4 on the annoying.  No one should have to pay for more board footage than is calculated.  We are at the mercy of the clerk. We can however question the figures and request an explanation of their actions. I have been told some companys even add a percentage to accomodate for shrinkage in the drying process!!! The lumber business can really get confusing sometimes.

                                                                      Jerry

    

    

1. 
   gb93433 | Mar 05, 2006 09:23am | #6

   "I have been told some companys even add a percentage to accomodate for shrinkage in the drying process!!! The lumber business can really get confusing sometimes."You are right. Those who do not know, it can be a business where the customer can be regularly cheated and not even know it. As a grader I could cheat you on grade and you would thank me everytime for such nice looking lumber. In the wholsale business between yards it is not uncommon to sell on a green tally. It does help to keep the inventory straight. All hardwood shrinks between 6-8 percent.
   Anytime a yard sells to the public it must be sold on a kiln dried tally. If they do not give a call to the weights and measures. They always go according to the NHLA kiln dried rules. Good companies will sell honestly and give you good material. In 1990 I was working for a company who hired me to help them control their inventory and make sure we were getting what we paid for. They had a problem in that they did not have a grader on the premises. When I started there I was surprised at how they were being gouged. The gouging quickly stopped when we graded and tallied some lumber. we never got any bad lumber after that.

1. 
   walnutjerry | Mar 05, 2006 05:34pm | #7

   Thank you for confirming what a lot of people suspect. We do have to rely on the integrity of the company we buy from. How can the consumer protect themselves from being gouged? The small one man shop has a hard time buying economically. And we have to do that to be competitive in pricing goods produced. Not many small shops are going to buy 2-10 thousand bf at a time.

   Perhaps you could post a source for NHLA rule book on grades and measuring practices so we can get better educated on the subject. It is not quite as bad a shock if you know how the game is supposed to be played. No one likes to be gouged.

   Thanks again for your post-------I for one appreciate it.

                                                                        Jerry

2. 
   gb93433 | Mar 05, 2006 10:02pm | #9

   The website of the NHLA is http://www.natlhardwood.org/"do they round down if under the .5 mark? 1.4 going to 1?"That is what is typically done. If it falls exactly on the .5 then it is tallied alternately up and down. A grader is allowed to be off up to 4% in money value when someone comes from the NHLA to settle a dispute. The NHLA will only grade the lumber when both parties agree to abide by the NHLA grader's decision. Tapered lumber is measured 1/3 the length from the narrow end. All hardwood lumber is measured around the outside curve of the width. It would seem to measure more, but in fact measures less. Graders typically have no ambition to cheat customers. In fact if they get called on their grading they will usually be without a job. The hardwood lumber business is a tight business. Anyone who cheats another gets known rather fast at the conferences. All the cheating I have seen is done in the office.Edited 3/5/2006 8:22 pm by gb93433

   Edited 3/5/2006 8:23 pm by gb93433

3. 
   walnutjerry | Mar 06, 2006 04:06am | #10

   Thanks for the information, I am sure a lot of people will benefit if they take the time to review the information posted on the NHLA site.

                                                                           Jerry

    

    

2. 
   citrouille | Mar 10, 2006 04:33am | #12

   Lumber is usually sold 2 ways, green tally and net tally.
   Green tally is the dimension (width) of the lumber before it was dried and the price is lower than net tally which is the actual measure. The difference is 7% (dimension and price)
   If the people you are dealing with are honest it should come out about the same but some measure green and charge net. When asking a price, make them specifie if it's net or green tally (also called gross tally)
   By the way widths are measured from 1/2" to 1/2". IE 5-3/4" is measured 6" - 5-1/4 is measured 5" if it falls on the 1/2" you should alternate once above and once below.C.

1. 
   gb93433 | Mar 10, 2006 08:15pm | #13

   The fact is that according to the NHLA rules it is wrong to sell KD lumber on a green tally. If the business get reported to the Bureau of Weights and Measures they will see a healthy fine. KD lumber is never graded on a green surface measure for each board. All KD lumber is graded on surface measure after it is dried. If you add 7% to the surface measure of a board and must get the required cutting units based on the green surface measure of that board you would have to be a better board. Not all boards shrink 7%. Quartersawn lumber shrinks much less. Ever see a company add on less for quarter sawn? http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/rwu4714/shrinkage_of_wood_faq.htmlSuppose a board is 9.75" x 8' green and it is dried and shrinks 7% to 9.1" x 8'. Originally the board would measure 7 and after drying would measure 6. So to make FAS on a green measure it would have to have 70 cutting units, whereas, after drying it would only need 60. Would the supplier be willing to grade that lumber and require of the dried board to have 70 cutting units to make FAS? Probably none. The dried board would only have 72.8 CUs if it were clear Some companies do not regrade their lumber after it is dried. They send the degrade onto the end user. Good companies regrade their lumber after it is dried and then sell it. Selling on a green tally is an effort to make their price look less. For years the practice has been that different companies add on a different percentage when selling on a "green tally."

2. 
   gb93433 | Mar 05, 2006 09:13am | #5

   Hardwood lumber is graded and tallied suface measure times thickness. Every board is graded on the surface and tallied to the nearest whole square foot. If a board is 12'11-15/16" long and 6" wide it will be tallied as 6' surface measure but the grade will be determined on the amount of usable lumber using the cuttting unit method. If a board measure 5.4 inches wide X 12' long it will be tallied as a 5The NHLA has been using the same rules since 1948. Hardwood lumber bought and sold in the US is graded and tallied according to NHLA rules. The problem mentioned is exactly the reason why many lumber yards will not sell retail to customers. They do not know the grading rules and often quibble over things they know nothing about. If one takes a 1000 bf of 4/4 lumber and calculates the actual board footage of each board and then sums that up it will usually be within 1-4 board feet. Hardwood lumber is bought and sold surface measure times thickness. A clear indicator of ignorance in a lumber yard is when someone sells a board by calculating the actual footage. If I go to a lumber yard and I know they calculate actual footage I buy the board that I know they bought on a larger tally than what they tallied when they sold it to me. I can buy a board which is 16/4 and not get charged for 4 board feet that way. So often when I try to tell them that they are doiing it wrong they just lok at me. So I have stopped trying to tell the ignorant and let them sell me more board for less money. Many yards are not willing to listen to someone who graded hardwood lumber for a living.

3. 
   Ricks503 | Mar 05, 2006 08:27pm | #8

   do they round down if under the .5 mark?  1.4 going to 1?1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go        4 - get a new board and go back to step 1

4. 
   John_D | Mar 06, 2006 07:11am | #11

   Comparing 8/4 rough to 4/4 S2S isn't apples to apples.  8/4 is nearly always more expensive, just as you'll pay more per bf for 12" boards than 6" boards.

   I bet if they had 4/4 S2S and 4/4 rough, the S2S would be pricier.My goal is for my work to outlast me.  Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.

2. 
   gb93433 | Mar 04, 2006 08:23am | #2

   I always prefer to buy circle sawn lumber than band saw or S2S because you can see if the board has tension in it or if it was stacked properly.

1. 
   DavidxDoud | Mar 12, 2006 09:27pm | #14

   I always prefer to buy circle sawn lumber than band saw or S2S because you can see if the board has tension in it or if it was stacked properly.

   would you explain this comment? - I'm uncertain how the saw mill type exposes tension or what it has to do with stacking -

   regards -

    

    "there's enough for everyone"

1. 
   gb93433 | Mar 13, 2006 02:42am | #15

   Circle sawn lumber is almost always sawn thicker than bandsawn lumber so you have more thickness to work with. If lumber is cupped and it is planed off you will not know how much it was cupped after drying and befoe planing. If it S4S you will never know how much bow it had after drying and before it was dressed. If lumber is stacked improperly it will normally have tension in it. Sometimes small amounts of tensin can be reo=moved by surfacing.