OK , I was wondering if there was opinion on this (or a right or wrong way).
If you were going to resaw a 4″ wide by 116″ thick slice of veneer on the table saw, (obviously a little under 2″ cut from each side). Would you set your fence at 116 “? or would you measure your stock, then set your fence, so that you would leave your slice of veneer on the left side of the blade? Somehow setting the fence at 116” seems iffy to me, but I defer to my peers.
Eric
Replies
It can be done. But I would cut more than a 16th off. Your ineveitably going to have a little ridge in the middle of the wood where the wood didnt line up exactly perfect along the fence when you flip the board end for end. Leave yourself some wood to take off with a planer and get down to a 16th. I think you can be more accurate with a planer than a table saw.
Recently I took a 7 inch wide piece of oak and resawed it from 4 inches to 2 inches thick. I had planned to run it through my planer a few times to smooth it out. Since the blade wouldn't cut all the way through, I had to finish the cut with a hand saw. Very old, dried, seasoned oak. The cut was about 3 feet long. Man! I love my power tools after that one.
I know your pain. I recently had the inspiration to resaw a piece of 8/4 zebrawood that was 7" wide by 6' long. That left a little over an inch to cut by hand. Needless to say, my blisters killed my inspiration. ;)
"100 Years" -- scribbled on the wall by a woodworker to remind him to do his best and as a warranty on his work -- "If anything I make fails in the first hundred years, bring it back, and I'll take care of it. After that, there will be a small charge. (Original purchaser only)"
I feel that I have to respond to your comment, and one earlier, about the difficulty of using a handsaw to make the final cut.
I suspect that in both cases the wrong saw or a dull saw was being used. With a handsaw properly sharpened for ripping, cutting through an inch thick piece of hardwood is relatively quick, requires little effort, and is just as pleasant as using a good hand plane.
John White, Shop Manager, Fine Woodworking magazine
Edited 2/16/2006 12:48 pm ET by JohnWW
Sadly, you are correct in your analysis because when I started, I was using a cheap japanese pull-saw. To save my sanity, I ended up purchasing a regular hand-saw.
"100 Years" -- scribbled on the wall by a woodworker to remind him to do his best and as a warranty on his work -- "If anything I make fails in the first hundred years, bring it back, and I'll take care of it. After that, there will be a small charge. (Original purchaser only)"
Eric,
My TS actually will cut 4" thick, but I take the point you're making. In a similar situation I usually do it as follows:
It's a given that you're going to plane and/or drumsand to final thickness.
Make the first cut with the TS at a bit less than half the thickness, say 1 3/4", and set your fence at a comfortable 3/16".
Turn the plank over and make another cut the same way. You have left a 1/2" area uncut in the middle which is all you need for good support against the fence when making that second cut.
Use the bandsaw to easily separate the piece, cutting that 1/2" bridge.
Now plane and sand to final thickness.
DR
If he had a bandsaw, he would be able to resaw in one pass.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
I would prefer to do that with a bandsaw, but if it had to be done on the table saw then I would set the fence at a hair over 1/16th, cut from both edges but not all the way through, then separate with a hand (panel) saw if it were just one or two, or bandsaw.
Resawing thick hardwood on a tablesaw can be done but be careful to use a sharp rip blade. I usually do this in two or more passes. Making deep rip cuts on a tablesaw can produce a lot of heat causing your blade to bind resulting in kickback. Also you must be very careful to feed the stock according to how your saw is cutting. If you have a bandsaw, do it on your bandsaw. It is the much safer tool for this.
If I were to have to use the table saw, I'd make two passes (cutting a little over half way through and then turning the board over for the second pass) and I'd have the veneer that I'm cutting off on the outside of the cut, not trapped between the blade and the fence. I'd also use a featherboard so that the piece I'm running through the saw is pushed up firmly against the fence as the piece starts entering the blade. In addition, I'd make the veneer 1/16th thicker than required and I'd thickness sand it to final dimension.
If the wood is extremely hard, I'd make four passes instead of two. The first two passes would be only an inch deep.
John
I strongly second the idea not to make the cut against the fence, Think about what happens on the second cut. When you cut through, the remaining wood on the outside of the blade is hanging in free space. Nothing except your hand to guide it, it is an accident waiting to happen. Can't use a push block since there is nothing to push against since the waste isn't on the fence.
The just sawn veneer, whether 1/16th or 1/4 is so thin it can easily vibrate, contact the blade and shoot backwards.
It is so simple to make the cut on the outside, with the full thickness of the board riding on the fence. It can be held into the fence with a finger board, and a sacrificial push shoe can provide the thrust through the blade with no hands at risk. True making the next cut will call for readjusting the fence, but thats a small price to pay for a much safer setup.
Eric,
First, if you have a band saw this would be the best tool to use for this type of work.
If you don't have a band saw, then this can be done on a table saw, but the wood must be trued up straight, flat, and square to work well and to be safe.
Make the cut with the thin cut off piece on the outside of the blade, not between the fence and the blade. Having a thin cut off between the fence and the blade will almost guarantee the piece will be burned, scored, and probably kicked back by the blade. Doing it this way, with the cut off to the out side, will, of course, require resetting the fence for each cut.
For good control, you will need to have a fair sized piece of wood to work with as you cut off the veneers. If the board is going to get too small to handle safely as you saw it down, glue or screw the piece you are resawing to a scrap piece before you start.
Sawn this way, you can make the two cuts overlap slightly so the piece will come free at the end of the second cut, there is no need to leave a thin connecting strip to be hand sawn. Be sure to use a zero clearance insert in the table to keep the veneer from getting trapped between the blade and the insert.
Between cuts, reface the sawn edge of the block with a thickness planer if possible. This will give you one already planed face on the cutoffs and guarantees that the side of the block against the fence is parallel to the face being cut off.
The last thing I would strongly recommend is getting a rip blade, it will cut better and be less likely to bind and create safety risks.
John White, Shop Manager, Fine Woodworking Magazine
Thanx to all who replied, I appreciate your help and advice.
I do have a bandsaw and would like to saw the veneer this way, however , I do not have or access to a thickness sander. in order to finish off the veneer to a unifrom thickness and finish. I was planning on the tablesaw because 1. I have a new and really good rip blade (forrest30) which leaves an acceptable finish , and 2. because as was suggested by John W after each slice I was going to pass it through the planer in order to get a fresh start, not that I cant do that using a bandsaw , (you would have to) but a bandsaw still leaves one side with a ridged cut, and without a thickness sander , I dont see another way of smoothing it out uniformly.( OH Hun..... guess what I can use in the shop!) It will of course make me feel a whole lot better by letting the veneer slice go off the left of the blade and out of harms way. I have never had to rip anything that thin before, and really was wondering how everyone else would have approached it.
Eric
Eric,
If you have a thickness planer you can attach the veneer pieces to a backing board with double sided tape and then run the board and veneer combination through the planer. There are several details I'm not covering here that will make the process more likely to be successful, and it might not work with wood that has wild grain, but it is worth a try. If you are interested, ask me for details of how to do this.
You could also glue the veneer sheets to their intended substrate and then run the glue up through the planer, I do this regularly for drawer faces.
Your band saw, unless it has some unique problems, is capable of resawing wood to veneer thickness pieces just as flat and even in thickness as your table saw can cut, and a band saw is definitely the preferred tool for the job as it is safer to use and will waste less wood.
John White
Hello John, and thank you again
If you could lay out some details , I would appreciate them , the wood is a fairly plain 84 x4 x 29" peice of mahogany. If it would be possible to plane them , to 116th that would be great, I only recently acquired the planer (22-580 delta) and still havent done much with it. I know the manual says it will plane down to an eighth, but if there is a jig that will get me where I need to be I'm all ears. In case your wondering , the project is Scott Latta's table in a recent issue.
Thanx again Eric
Hello Eric,
I have been there and done that. It's a scary operation. My gut now tells me not to do it on a table saw. Use the band saw and find a way to plane, scrape, or sand smooth.
Bob, Tupper Lake, NY
Sorry to jump in late, but I've been learning to resaw lately, and I noticed you seem to believe the finish would be better with the table saw.
It might be, but you are going to have all kinds of trouble controling the wood, the veneer, etc., etc..
Based on your comments, is it possible you aren't using the right blade on the bandsaw or don't have it tensioned right? This was my problem. Now I can do a 1MM or so resaw which is pretty even, etc.. Of course the back side of the veneer is a bit rough, but I suspect I'll figure that out eventually too. Besides, thats where the glue goes.
You might consider going to a wood supplier and asking him to make the cuts for you. Most have proper resaw set ups, and can do a pretty good job.
Of course the back side of the veneer is a bit rough, but I suspect I'll figure that out eventually too. Besides, thats where the glue goes.
You glue down the rough side? I figured to glue down the smooth side for better adhesion.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
My thought also, I don't think that veneer is normally glued down rough.
John W.
Well, I'm just getting into this, but when I say rough, its just not perfectly flat and planned and all. I usually keep the nice part out when I glue things, so thats what I did with the veneer too.
If I glued it nice side down, I'd probably run it through the planner with a super fine cut.
OK John,
Im asking, please, can you lay out some details as to what may help make planing a thin slice successful? You mention a backer board and two sided tape, carpet tape?
mmmmmm, I'm thinking how can you get it off? solvent? or do you only use the tape on the beginning end of the veneer?.
Eric
Eric,
Actually I'm rethinking this, I don't know if it is possible to plane as thin as 1/16" and then peel off the veneer without cracking it. I've done this with slightly thicker wood but never that thin.
Anyway, here's how I would try this: Use MDF or melamine faced shelf stock for the backing board, the tape will stick well to either material. Be sure the board is absolutely flat.
Make the board only 1/2" wider than the veneer that you will be planing. If you use a melamine faced board wipe it down with a clean rag and naphtha to remove any contaminants that might affect the tape's adhesion.
Normally for this type of operation I use heavy duty, professional grade carpet tape, the cloth type, to attach the stock to the backer. The problem is that this tape adheres so well that I doubt if you could peel the veneer off after planing. So for stock this thin try the lighter grade carpet tape which has a plastic film and less adhesive.
Because the wood is so thin ,I would apply the tape to pretty much cover the entire piece you are going to plane with gaps of no more than 1/4" between adjacent rows of tape. If the wood isn't fully supported by the tape you might get variations in the thickness of the finished veneer.
Apply the tape to the wood and then press the taped veneer against the backing board. Use a softwood wood block and a light mallet to tap all over the veneer surface to improve the contact with the backing board. Instead of a block and mallet you could use a small hand held veneer roller for the same purpose.
Ahead of the leading edge of the veneer, glue or tape down to the backing board a transition piece of veneer, 4 to 6 inches long that will absorb any sniping and protect the leading edge of the main piece from being abruptly snagged by the blades. Since it will be used repeatedly and not have to be replaced, the transition piece should be glued or taped down very solidly and roughly tapered with a hand plane, over about half its length, toward the leading edge of the assembly, to ease the start of the piece into the blades. If you want, you could add a similar trailing piece of veneer to prevent sniping of the outboard end of the stock. The trailing piece wouldn't need to be tapered.
The blades on your planer need to be as sharp as possible to minimize the chance of lifting up the stock, the rollers should be clean and the table waxed to keep everything flowing smoothly once you start planing. If you have a two speed machine use the slower speed.
Take very light cuts. Start with the cutting head high enough that the first pass probably won't even take a cut, then gently bring the head down a bit for each following pass. If you are going to be doing more than one piece of veneer you will need a pair of calipers to get all of the pieces to the same thickness.
Feed the stock into the machine at a skew which will improve the cut and reduce the stress on the wood. This is why I suggested making the backing board only a bit wider than the veneer, so you could get the maximum skew to the side.
If the veneer gets picked up and shattered by the cutter head, pieces of it might spit back out of the infeed side of the machine, so stand to the side when feeding and be sure to wear eye protection.
To peel off the veneer, try to lift one corner with a flipped over chisel as a small pry bar. Apply steady pressure and give the adhesive a moment to stretch and release. Once you get the full width of one end lifted, usually it isn't too hard to peel up the full piece. Warmth helps to make the adhesive easy to peel, as does peeling the wood off as soon as possible after planing.
Hope this works and that I've explained this well enough to follow.
John W.
Wonder if you could just hide glue it to a substrate, use your planer, then use heat to release. Seems like you'd leave a messy amount of glue on the veneer, though, and the actual process of releasing it might prove difficult without damaging the veneer.
Makes a drum sander seem like a pretty good investment. :)My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
You have been given a lot of advice . Why don't you just find a supplier and buy the veneer?
More fun this way
Eric
oops,
Besides by using the same board for the veneer and legs, I wont have to worry about color matching.
Eric
In using a table saw to resaw, why would you use a thickness planer instead of the jointer for resurfacing the edge of the block?
Sounds like a good application for a vacuum fence.
I thought about using a vacuum attachment, but hooking the vacuum hose to the moving backing board creates problems, especially since the board passes entirely under the cutters. I'm also not sure if a vacuum would be sufficient to hold down the stock given that it wouldn't be possible to use soft gaskets under the thin veneer.
John W.
I came into this discussion late. In the first message where the question was asked:
"If you were going to resaw a 4" wide by 116" thick slice of veneer on the table saw, (obviously a little under 2" cut from each side). Would you set your fence at 116 "? or would you measure your stock, then set your fence, so that you would leave your slice of veneer on the left side of the blade? Somehow setting the fence at 116" seems iffy to me, but I defer to my peers."
Using a vacuum fence, I would set the saw to 1/16" and the saw depth to just over 2", make the first cut, flip the board over, make the second and let the fence suck the 1/16" strip tight to itself. I do this all the time with 1/8" strips that are 1 3/4" thick. Each strip pushes the previous one through the blade. A sharp blade will cut the proper kerf so that the wood that is pulled to the fence doesn't burn during the pause. With 1/16" strips, each one will have to be pulled out of the suction by hand since they aren't still enough to push through without deflecting. Bill
Now I've got it, a vacuum fence for the resawing not for the planing. I should have thought harder before I fired back an answer.
Never used one, but it has appeal for this type of specialized cutting. My concern would be that tension in the wood might cause the thin offcut to cup and pull away from the fence. If the offcut is on the outside of the blade, as I suggested doing the cut, it is free to move without binding.
John W.
You might be right about the thin piece cupping, I'll try it out. Going out of town right now, won't be back for a week. Bill
Thanx again John (and everyone) for your help. hopefully get some shop time this weekend, be able to try everything out, I'll let you know how it goes. Bill's idea of a vacuum fence sounds interesting, dont have one, but it sounds interesting, be interested to see how he makes out with that.
Once again just proof of what a great site this is, and the amount of knowledge and experience that is available to share.
Eric
OK, Worked great. Really pleased with the results.
I Resawed slices to a heavy 116 ( 332 ?) The sled that I setup(1/2" MDF) was 40" long, by 4.5 " wide. I had checked the bandsaw setup with a piece of poplar , so I used that peice to make a 5" "lead piece" ,taping that down first then taped apiece of the mahogany, then another piece of the poplar as a trailer,(figured it couldnt hurt). Just to be safe also as you suggested, handplaned a light "ramp" to the lead piece . Zeroed in the machine so the first pass barely touched it , then took two light passes and got it down to a sixteenth. At that point I set the depth stop for the subsequent peices. I found the easiest way to get the veneer off the tape, is not to try to get the wood off, but to gently lift the tape (putty knife) off the sled taking the veneer with it ,(I guess this supports veneer better) then you can flip the veneer and roll the carpet tape off , some residue remains but a card scraper took care of it.
Thanx to everyone ......... forward Eric
Eric,
Glad to hear it worked so well, thanks for the update.
John W.
I sliced some strips off a 12/4 scrap today. They are just under 1/16 th of an inch. Everything went well, the point of pressure was just after the blade cut, so there wasn't any deflection. I thought about going down thinner to find the limit, but the Felder fence is not as rigid as a Beismeyer, I didn't want to get the blade that close to the fence. Anyhow, the thread to a recent discussion of vacuum fences is named:vacuum gripping in the workshop.
The digital caliper's reading is in inches.
Edited 3/1/2006 7:53 am ET by BillLindau
Bill ,
Interesting, If you could , would you be able to post some pics of your vacuum fence setup? I may not have one but the idea is appealing and it would be good to know for the future. Thank you
Eric
Eric, an earlier thread named Glue Line Rip has some pictures that I posted of my vacuum fence. I bought mine online but one of the contributors to that thread (Malcom) made one similar to what I bought. The thread number is 23162.52 showing detailed pics and 23162.26 showing my fence in use. I think Malcom started a new thread where he posted the results of making his own. Let me know if this helps or not. Bill Lindau
Edited 3/1/2006 7:39 am ET by BillLindau
Yes Bill,
That did help, a picture's worth a thousand words. It is a great idea hopefully in the future I will look into making a fence like that.
Thank You !!
Eric
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