I got my hands on an old oak dining room table (found it for free in an old garage) that I am going to refinish. I removed all of the hardware and am removing the old finish/dirt/grime/stains. Many of the screws that were used to hold the thing together had worn loose and could be pulled out by hand.
My question is, what is the best way to address the screw holes so that I can re-use them when I reassemble the table. I don’t really want to change where the screws were located.
Replies
erichweiss,
There are many ways to repair or fill worn screw holes. One way is to use a wood dowel about the same diameter as the screw body and shape or sand or sharpen the end to fit the hole. I glue them and tap them in tight.I snip or saw them flush then, Let them dry before you screw into them. If the holes are really large you may have to use a larger diameter dowel to start with.
good luck dusty
Thank you for your reply. I will try that.
Lee Valley sells the "Plugger" for exactly this purpose: http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?SID=&ccurrency=2&page=32280&category=1,180,42240
ehrich, if the holes aren't too torn out, you can often get away with just putting a drop of yellow glue in the hole and then use a nail to press in a pinch of fine sawdust...followed by a second drop of glue.
Further to Dusty's reply, if you have a drill press and a set of plug cutters, a side grain plug will hold a thread better than end grain, found on dowels, but the dowels will be fine also.
Alan
http://www.alanturnerfurnituremaker.com
Don't forget the simplest option: using a slightly larger diameter screw.
Insert a length or two of toothpick with a dab of glue.
Or fill with epoxy and predrill a pilot hole.
Don Kondra - Furniture Designer/Maker
I agree that Don's suggestion is the simplest solution. I break round toothpics in two, and tap a sufficient number into the hole, pointed end down, and dipped in glue.
If you don't want to redrill the holes, just one or two of these toothpick pieces will be enough to hold the screw firmly.
Ehrich, First, before removing any hardware, mark around any hinge /bracket or fixture with a sharp knife or pencil
That alone will insure that you will drill new holes exactly where the factory located them
Even marking the outlines of the hinge holes will help. Naturally. if these marks will show on the outside, you can place temporary strips of masking tape
to 'Outline' the fixture.without leaving marks.
Gluing and plugging the old holes are the best way to go.
Longer screws will work so long as they don't come through the finished side.
I would not try using wider or thicker screws
BUT, I reccomend replacing the original screws with Flat head sheet metal screws of the same thickness.
IE: #6 # 8 #10 x 3/4" or !' etc. These screws are tougher and are not tapered and won't work loose like the old tapered wood screws.
I buy( From a shoe repair shop) a package of square wooden shoe nails just for this purpose
They can be dipped in glue and driven into the old holes and more can be added as needed.
After all the glue has dried, sand down any protruding plugs THEN, place the hinge inside the markings and mark the centers of all the screw holes.
(Since drilling new smaller starter holes in he plugged hole invites wandering of the drillbit, I use a fine awl to first prick the center to keep the drill bit from 'Straying'
Good luck Ehrich, Steinmetz
Edited 9/22/2004 3:09 pm ET by steinmetz
Edited 9/22/2004 3:26 pm ET by steinmetz
Wow! That was pretty clever, LOL!
I'm just glad the thread title didn't get censored to read:
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Ehrich, the last post came out badly, so I'm sending it again as an attachment Steinmetz
The fact that a lot of the screws were loose indicates that the original screws were undersized and/or were otherwise deficient, which is fairly typical of most old oak factory made furniture.
Putting the original size and type of screws back into repaired holes will be a very temporary fix, since plugged holes almost always have even less holding power than the original solid wood.
So after you plug the holes with serious wood plugs (no toothpicks please), use larger diameter screws in a length as long as the thickness of the wood will safely allow.
Don't use traditional wood screws for the replacements, they waste a tremendous amount of their potential holding power with their unthreaded shanks and tapered and poorly formed threads. The best screws commonly available for repairs are sheet metal screws, which a good hardware store will have in a hundred sizes and several different head styles. Be sure to drill the proper diameter pilot holes for the screws or they'll probably just ream out the plugs.
Sheet metal screws are usually only available in steel, although they can be painted to mimic the look of brass. If you have to use more traditional screws in visible locations, still try to use a larger diameter screw in a longer length if possible.
John W.
JohnW:
If you want brass and the best holding power, what's your opinion of tapping the wood hole (or its epoxy lining) and using a machine screw? It's suggested here: http://www.leevalley.com/hardware/page.asp?SID=&ccurrency=2&page=40057&category=3,41306
though I would have thought a bottoming tap would be preferred for the best hold with a given length of screw. Of course, the disadvantage is that you need to tap the hole. Since you need angle control, torque, and to stop at the correct point, a hand brace would seem like the most reasonable way to use the tap.
A machine screw, carefully tapped, is probably a bit stronger than a traditional wood screw in larger diameters, but I think that a sheet metal screw would be at least as strong with considerably less labor involved.
In smaller diameters, under 3/16", would be my guess, threads in wood start to have problems, even the coarsest machine threads start to become fragile.
Another alternative, available from Lee Valley, is to use machine threaded metal inserts set into the wood. They have a small diameter insert in their shelf hardware section that is very useful for this.
John W.
One of the disadvantages of being the neighborhood "wood guy" is that the neighbors are always bringing over stuff to fix. The goodwill points for the noise I make are worth gaining, but I'm usually trying to get something done so I don't want to spend a bunch of time. However offensive to the purists amongst us, the toothpick approach is in someways superior to dowel plugs. Screws in plugs are screws in endgrain so the threads cut the fibers and create a bunch of short grain segments. This is the same reason why rolled threads are stronger than cut threads on machine screws. 3 toothpicks or even better, 3 bamboo terriaki sticks ( much more fibrous and tough than toothpicks), and a little glue does the trick very quickly without altering the piece and possibly diminishing the value of an antique. John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
The more things change ...
We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.
Petronious Arbiter, 210 BC
I cut my plugs with a plug cutter so they're long grain, but running a screw into any plug is a weak fix, that's why I almost always try to use a larger and/or longer screw and skip the plug altogether.
I will concede that toothpicks and glue are probably a good a fix in many situations, especially if the repair is a favor rather than a paying job, I shouldn't have dismissed them so quickly.
John W.
re: early dismissal of toothpicks.
I agree, and I wondered why you were so dismissive of their use for repairing a worn screw hole. Some of these other fixes suggested seem overly complicated and time consuming.
I've always used matchsticks as they seem more compressible but either way one should be aware of the danger of packing the hole so tight that the screw splits the timber.
I saw a good tip for really badly enlarged and split screw-holes in door jambs and that was to fill the hole with 'Plastic Wood' or similar and insert a screw that had been greased with petroleum jelly or heavy wax so it wouldn't stick to the wet filler. When the filler had set, the screw was removed to leave a perfect threaded hole.
It could save setting a dovetailed repair block into the door jamb.
IanDG
Ian, and All,
Wow, 21 different solutions to one problem! Why not add my $.02? In repair work, this is a pretty common problem, and deserving of an easy and effective solution. Lots of times, the screw is too short, or of too small diameter, as John W suggests. I'd add, that often, the screw strips because of shrinkage/movement that the screw cannot accomodate. Replacing a #8 screw with a #10 should be done in concert with reaming the hole in the apron to allow for seasonal movement of the top (table top to apron attachment) .
Personally, in repairing an antique, most often I'll whittle a pin from 1/4" square stock to fit the stripped-out hole. Dip it in glue, and drive it into the hole. Not too hard, lots of times the screws have ALREADY been replaced with longer ones and you might be REALLY close to coming thru the top (How do I know this? Don't ask.) Let the glue dry, this is important.
Then cut the pin off flush, and drill a new pilot hole, big enough to accomodate the root of the screw's thread, small enough to give the thread a bite. For old screws, the ones with blunt tips, this is critical.
When you drive the screw, can you pull it as tightly as if it were in new wood? If not, then don't count on the repair lasting very long. This is the problem I have had with toothpicks, matchsticks, etc. I've not been able to pull the screws up tight with them. No-one's mentioned steel wool packed into the hole, maybe because it doesn't work either.
I've tried face-grain plugs, as well. Theoretically at least, they are stronger than driving a pin into the hole; in practice I can't tell much difference, until the plug required is 5/16"or so (or larger) in diameter.
Plastic wood will not,. in my opinion, give lasting results. It is just too crumbly to hold a screw. Epoxy might be better, but is pretty brittle, and prone to having voids, bubbles etc inside the hole.
About a year ago, our church decided to replace the solid wood entry doors with fiberglas skinned ones. The stout, spring loaded closers soon stripped out. Came to find out that the wood inside the fiberglas was only about 1" thick, and soft pine at that. Larger screws soon stripped out too. Longer screws were no good. The solution to that problem was a threaded insert (5/8" dia) for 1/4"x 20tpi machine screw. So far, so good.
Regards to all,
Ray
Those of you who've used sheet-metal screws for wood - question.
Since the screws are straigth, and threaded up to the head, won't you have to drill the part to be afixed oversize so as to ensure that they are pulled together tightly?
With respect to repairs, epoxy and sawdust works. Using larger screws works. Take a gander at West Epoxy for their thoughts on drilling holes oversize and then using epoxy as a filler. I don't recollect their exact proceedure and I don't want to misinform. Furniture, esp chairs, can have some joints that are quite highly stressed, the toothpick technique seems a bit iffy for those particular applications.
I'm not a big fan of using oversize screws if the piece you are affixing has a countersink (a hinge, for example), unless the bigger screw will fit the old countersink. Even so, I would prefer to use a new screw of the same size as the old if appearance is an issue.
When using a larger sheet metal screw for the repair, if you drill a new pilot hole the size of the screw shaft, you will usually be able to turn it through the part you are attaching. If not, you would indeed have to make the hole larger.
I'm am really perplexed why some object to using glued toothpicks -- or some other kind of large wood slivers -- to fill an oversize hole. The techniques is fast, effective, and you don't see them anyway. There are no doubt some applications where toothpicks would not be strong enough, but I haven't personally run across one yet. Maybe with a heavy interior door, where all (or most) of the hinge screws are loose.
Hi nikkiwood ,
Part of the beauty of woodworking and the types of works we do, is that there are so many options on how to do most any given task . 5 of us might repair that worn out screw hole 5 different ways. As long as it works , it is all good . Just because in 30 years of ww I have never used toothpicks does not mean they don't work. But just ponder this , if you had clear tubes say 1/4"-3/8"and in one you filled it tight with toothpicks and the next one pressed a solid piece of wood (dowel ?) into it , then proceeded to put the screws in . What would you see ? IMHO no matter if it is face grain or end grain , some splitting is likely when you pierce any little piece with a screw.
dusty
dusty and Leon,
First, I appreciate your diplomatic and civil responses. There are some around here who seem to think they have a corner on Truth, and their way is therefore so obviously superior, and they are dismissive of any other approach.
Second, this forum is most valuable when people are exchanging their ideas and techniques in a friendly and non-judgmental fashion. Both of you clearly understand this, and consequently, it is always a pleasure to read your contributions.
Third, I do indeed concede that a plug is preferable to a sheaf of toothpicks in end-grain situations, or where there will be considerable stress on the screw.
thanks again......
Wow, Nikki. Thanks, it was my pleasure.
I really enjoy this place, it is a bit rough and tumble at times -- mostly in the Café, from what I've seen.
I think it's really neat that a bunch of folks can exchange ideas, post pix of works and shops and generally pick each others' brains for ideas and solutions to problems.
I've often wondered if craftsmanship is "in the blood". My dad taught welding and worked in the yards at Potomac Yards as a young man, my grandfather was a carpenter who worked on building both Fort Belvoir and the Canal. I've got a peck of relatives who are either some sort of building trades folks or inveterate tinkerers. Who knows?
Be well, see you around here.
Leon Jester
Roanoke VA
I tried the matchstick/toothpick/glue method and wound up having to carefully drill out and install a plug.
Having an end-grain repair method not work, I used a cross grain plug.
As far as I know it's still holding.
Regarding stressed joints on chairs, etc.: I've had several screw/hardware joints give and have changed to mortise/tenon joints with hide glue. Eventually it fails, but when it does it can be repaired easily.Leon Jester
Roanoke VA
erich/John,
Following on from John's post, when I was trained in antique restoration/conservation, we were taught to:
1) Conserve: Where possible, don't touch the original wood - in this case, I'd whittle out a peg to fill the original hole, hide glue and redrill the pilot hole. In a pinch, I've used toothpicks or slivers of wood to shim a screw hole - reversible. (remember that you're gluing to endgrain for a portion of the hole, so don't solely rely upon glue to give strength
2) Restore: Either redrill and plug the hole (allows you to fit the same screw back into the hole, preserving screw size) or use a screw with the next gauge up, same length (less damage to item, but screw is not an original)
If you're replacing an 8 gauge by 1" screw, a 10 gauge by 1" screw has more holding power than an 8" by 1 1/4" or 8" by 1 1/2" screw. John's comments on the modern threads vs older threads also ring true with me
If the client didn't care and wanted it fixed with no regards to retaining value, then I'd put the larger gauge screws in first, as well as try to remedy the cause for all the screw threads becoming stripped in this instance. (ie: is the screw supporting a cyclic load or full load of a door without the hinge being morticed into the door in the first instance.
Trust that this makes sense and helps, this being, as always, just my opinion only.
Cheers,
eddie
Edited 9/27/2004 8:07 pm ET by eddie (aust)
hi,
new guy on the block.
most of the suggested fixes are fussy finicky, over the top(toothpicks?) or time consuming---fit a cut-to-length plastic wall plug, drill out for interference fit and use solid brass screws.
feel free to respond---nothing like a different perspective to stir the pot.
the forum should stick to woodworking---really don't need that 'go nowhere' political stuff.
cheers.
,
It is interesting to have a "new guy on the block" whose first offering is snide and condescending.
I shall look forward to what other contributions you care to make..................
I've been using flat toothpicks and glue to fill oversized holes for years, as did my Dad and probably his Dad. Nothing over the top about it, just a good practical fix that works.
Ian
WOW! I had no idea my one little question would lead to so many (different) responses. Although all of the ideas sound great, I think I am going to lean toward the toothpick method. Now a question to clear up the toothpick method:
How exactly do I do this? Do I want to completely fill the hole with glue covered toothpicks? Or do I just need to put a few in "around the outsides"? And, if I fill the hole completely do I need to drill a pilot hole? Do I want to put the pointed ends in first or should I put in the "flat end" of a pick that is broken in half in first or what? I'm sure its not rocket science, but if there is a preferred way to do it I would like to know.
Thanks again for all of the responses!
Yes, you want to fill the hole completely with glue coated picks. Since they're tapered, you can usually tap the last one in with a tack hammer. Let the glue cure for a few hours, then cut the whole bunch flush with a razor saw or sharp chisel. I don't pre-drill. The picks are soft enough to press with an awl to mark the center and insert the screw. If the old holes are extremely tapered, you might want to drill a fresh straight hole before inserting the picks. Longer screws don't hurt either but I'm often trying to re-use the old screw.
Ian
IMHO and in my experience it usually only takes a few toothpicks to "tighten" the fit of the screw, depending on the damage of course.
Reinstall the screw with a hand held screwdriver. If it strips again with light pressure, add a few more toothpicks.
I don't bother to let the glue dry either... I feel the wet glue will coat the threads and provide a stronger fix when dry.
And if you really want to get anal about it, coat the screw with wax :)
Total repair time = 30 seconds.Don Kondra - Furniture Designer/Maker
Thanks Don and IAN for the toothpick tips.
I look forward to finish finishing the top so that I can finish finishing the almost completely finished finished product.
Hi ehrich,
just as a comment, I'd make sure that you understand and fix (if possible) the reason why the screws stripped in the first place. Might save replacing the toothpicks in a bit.
Cheers,
eddie
Edited 9/28/2004 5:49 pm ET by eddie (aust)
Just take a big nail and a hammer and whack it in.
If the nail is too big, get a bigger hammer.
Taking a flyer here, but trust 'nikkiwood' would consider seconding my nominating JACKPLANE for president -- his contribution gets my vote-- simple, sensible, practical, and hopefully the last nail in the coffin of a delightful, entertaining,show
Also my vote to 'erich' as vice president for his subject title and #29, 2nd para. to iancummings. Great stuff, guys, keep it up.
cheers.
irony is not to be misconstrued as something to build bridges with
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