This message is addressed to those of you who’ve been WWing for a long time and have developed strategies for the gluing/clamping phase of a project. CLUSTER6 started the following thread:
http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-knots&msg=8258.1
asking for advice for a systematic approach to this part of WWing. I’d really like to see some input in that thread from the likes of Rick (DESIGNS), Sgian, Splintie, Mike, Dano, Lee and (lots of) others who’ve been at this for a long time.
C’mon guys ‘n gals, we need your sage advice!
forestgirl — you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can’t take the forest out of the girl 😉
Replies
Good question. I was wondering how Splintie clamped the cutting board but didn't ask what I assumed would be taken as a remedial question. Some might get bored! haha
Don
On one of the other forums, I saw this signature: "Beginners are woodworkers too." And, it wasn't the signature of a beginner.
These boards will get boring, IMHO, if beginners (or anyone else) aren't posting for fear of off-putting the more experienced WWers. I would think that all woodworkers have had the same questions at some point in their "careers."
I hope people go over to the "Clamping Suggestions" thread in General Discussions and give us their pearls of wisdom. See link above (#1)
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 10/10/2002 2:02:12 PM ET by forest_girl
From the home page of "Knots":
For beginners...Don't be afraid to ask questions. Our forum is teeming with great minds waiting to be tapped.Let us know how it went. We'll toast your hits and troubleshoot your misses.And...Remember us when you make it to the big leagues. When you're all out of questions, come back ready with answers."
With no disrespect intended toward anyone, I'd like to suggest that we broaden the range of people who are qualified to provide answers. One of the reasons some people may feel that this forum has become "boring" (a complaint that is repeated almost as often as the so-called "boring" questions themselves!), is because we seem to segregate ourselves into "beginners," "hobbyists" and "pros." The first group tends to pose all the questions, and the third group is expected to provide the answers. (God knows what the hobbists do! <grin>)
Well, as someone who was a total beginner not that long ago, but who's made great progress over the past several years, and has lots of progress yet to make, I'd like to think that I'm capable of providing some answers, to some of the questions.
I've been the beneficiary of excellent advice from many of the people you mention, forest_girl, and some of my projects have been successful only because of the information that I've gotten here -- both directly and as a result of searching the archives.
While I can't pretend to be a mindreader, I'm confident that the original post was meant with the best of intentions. However, I'd like to throw open the gate to anyone, beginner or otherwise, who thinks they might have information to share. I think the "beginner" group should go for it, and try Steps #2 and #3 of the welcome page: Share your sucesses and add your opinions. If someone has a differing opinion (and they will!) don't worry about it: you each might learn each other a little something. Don't wait until you've somehow reach "Master" status (which is even more difficult to determine than whether or not you're an "artist!").
Even old dogs...
David
Hmmm... the garden or the workshop today?
Edited 10/10/2002 2:40:01 PM ET by davamoore
I wasn't closing the door on anyone, I was simply trying to get the attention of the people most likely to have a tried and true system. I've already posted 2 (or is it 3) times in that thread, and two others have posted also. But I would really, really like to see some input from someone with tons of experience in the clamping/gluing arena, as I personally experienced some mighty frustration with the process just this week!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
f_g, I didn't take your post as intentionally excluding anyone, and in my effort to be diplomatic and not cause offense I probably just confused the issue and sounded pompous.
I just took an opportunity, with your post, to share something I've been kicking around in my own head for some time. I agree, the insight of those who've been there, done that is VERY valuable here. The ability to phrase a question precisely (if possible), and get a direct response beats looking things up in books, where the unique aspects of a particular project we're working on might lead to an answer different than the generic information offered in print. It also saves a lot of personal frustration: I'd rather practice doing something right (failing once in a while), than practice doing it wrong, only to find out there was a much better/easier way later.
I guess my point was to encourage those who might be reticent about sharing their ideas. I can't imagine that only a few people have wisdom to share, and I'm sure those who are pros are getting a little weary of always being depended upon. Even priests and psychiatrists need down time!!! (OK, let's not let that open a can of worms!)
So, everyone else, please weigh in! Everybody on this forum has been wrong at some point (except me, of course), but even so-called "wrong" answers generally lead to a correction that benefits everyone.
As usual, my twenty cents.
DavidHmmm... the garden or the workshop today?
Hi David, I agree with your basic premise, for sure -- well documented by my (to some incessant) willingness to pitch in ideas for a huge variety of questions, ROFL!!
BTW, has your garden shut down for the winter yet? It's getting cold here in the NW!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Hey Jamie, sadly my garden has been shut down for the latter half of the summer! The first reason was the weather, although not necessarily the change of seasons. We had such a drought this summer, and I'm not around all the time to make sure the gardens get watered, so it ended up being "survival of the fittest."
Then, we had the house re-stained and painted... It was a job I thought about taking on myself, but it was just too big and the previous owners had let things go quite a bit, so we brought in the "pros" (my only attempt to make this note fit in with the title of the thread). They did a great job and were very responsible, but they did a fair job of finishing off the remaining plantings around the house and garage!
Ah well, now it's 6 weeks of solid raking (our house is in the woods) and then, let it snow, let it snow, let it snow! Oh, and I'm installing the woodburning stove tomorrow (which fits another old thread I posted on)... I think I'll manage to do it without turning my shop into a smokehouse! (If worse comes to worst, I'll have some nice cherry shavings to help add flavor to the meat!)
DavidHmmm... the garden or the workshop today?
Gotcher stumped, eh???
First round of gluing is a long strip of various strips glued up symmetrically with poly glue, about 2" across. When cured, these are cut on a 45* about 6" wide on the long side. These parts eventually make the "X" design shown.
Second round of gluing is to set these into another specie of wood--in this case bubinga--that has been also cut on a 45* where desired, with the 45* cuts matching in length. (The first strip ends up being glued up at a 45* angle to the background wood.) You have to capture the whole thing sideways between strongbacks using C-clamps and waxed paper before putting on a clamp to squeeze from the ends, otherwise the parts spurt apart. I use fast-set epoxy for this step, since i have only so many C-clamps and do 20-30 sets at a time.
When cured, joint one side of the piece, then cut into several strips very carefully--the end-grain epoxy joint is weak. Flip each strip over--it'll take on the Indian blanket appearance then. I put a thin strip of wood that contrasts with the background wood between each strip i've just cut, and i glue those sections together.
When cured, i place however many other pieces i want in the board and glue up the parts again. By doing it in stages, it's easier to keep the strips registered.
Aberrations: if glued up differently in the final step, you can have a diamond. If the 45* cuts in the background wood are parallel to one another instead of perpendicular, it looks like two wings or arrows.
I'll attach a couple table tops pix so you can ponder the sequence of cutting and gluing on them. The files are a bit large, since i thought detail might help.
Splintie,
What's the bright red wood in table1.jpg?
Rich
Splintie,
Awesome work and although busy in appearance, I like it, and dittos on Rich's, what is the red wood?
Clamping the 45's and the spurting as you put it has been my bain. I always get some movement. One of those darn practice things I imagine! ;^)
Don
Don, Rich, the red wood is African Paduak.
Splintie,
Thanks. That's one of my favorite woods. It is so beautiful when first finished. Unfortunately, it inevitably becomes an almost uniform brown. I've been working with Red Heart (Erythroxylon spp.) and Blood Wood (Brosimum paraense) both of which have very different grain and figure than Padauk but have about the same coloring. They are gorgeous hardwoods in their own right. They hardly show any color change when exposed to UV. I've had both out in the tropical sun all day long for 2 weeks. There was just the slightest darkening of tone. The Red Heart actually lightened to its original bright red-orange about 2 days after I took it in out of the sun.
They're both almost 50% more expensive than Padauk.
Rich
Redheart for me is about double what paduak runs. I used to get it, but the only wood it pairs well with well--that paduak doesn't look just as well with--is goncalo alves.
Odd that you haven't had problems with it turning color. I went to a gallery that carried some of my work and prompty exchanged some lazy susans for fresh ones--the red in those had gone quite blah, sort of a dirty pink. It certainly hasn't been the seller i was sure it would be, though i have some stuff with not only great color, but figred to boot. For the price--over $10, i won't be forcing it on a padauk-loving public.
Hmm. My Padauk turns blah brown in an hour in the sun. Red Heart is hardly affected. Have you had any experience with Blood Wood? Its coloring is more like Padauk than is Red Heart's.
The pairings that I like right now are Ebony, Maple, Ash and Wenge.
Rich
Edited 10/14/2002 2:57:51 AM ET by Rich Rose
I'm surprised that there aren't more Australian timbers on sale here, considering the plethora of red timbers that they have -- in fact it's difficult to find a brown timber like walnut, teak or oak there.
Ian,
What Australian woods do you mean?
Rich
First of all Rich, there are the same names for different timbers (Blue Gum is one) so always go by the botanical name if you're ordering sight unseen. I've got photos of some of them
Jarrah -- deep red/brownView ImageBrush Box -- base color Terracotta, but varies from straw to purpleView ImageForest Red Gum (Euc. Tereticornis) -- pink to deep clear red -- like working dusty cast-ironThe centers of the 'chain' in the above photo
Sydney Blue Gum (Euc. Saligna) -- winey red
Turpentine -- base color Terracotta, very hard
River Red Gum (Euc. Camaldulensis) -- pink to deep red -- possibly even harder.
Ian,
Thanks for the information and the beautiful photos. I am familiar with Jarrah and can get it here in Hawaii. I did not know of the other woods, and have not seen any sorces for them. Do you know any?
Rich
Rich,
No, unfortunately I don't -- Australia has a totally unfathomable attitude to their magnificent timbers. Multi-national companies have been granted logging rights to vast areas which are exported as wood chips for papermaking -- they are supposed to set aside logs of a quality suitable for sawing but the inspectorate is weak or non-existent so it all goes in the chipper.My sources for timber for my floors ranged from a small local mill to the quasi-monopoly of Boral Timber but I was actually using a hell of a lot of English Oak (quercus robur) which was sourced from Lithuania and judging by the annular rings was coming from enormous old growth trees.Baseboards and casings were made from meranti from Malaysia, finger-jointed pine or MDF when there's hardly a eucalypt that doesn't produce good clear furniture timber.There was a guy who made top-quality furniture in Melbourne from local timbers and he was so incensed that he paid for a campaign to 'value-add' the use of Oz timber instead of using it for woodchips or fencing.His ad was very clever -- it showed a guy's hand, holding a handful of polished opal and the conversation went something like this:-"Gee that's beautiful, what is it?""It's opal -- semi-precious stone"What do you use it for?"Oh, we use it for the aggregate in concrete"You think that's stupid? -- it's exactly what we are doing with our timber!A lot of Jarrah, by the way, was cut down and exported as railroad ties.
I live in southwestern Oregon, smack dad in the middle of Douglas fir country. 99% of Doug fir (Pseudotsuga menziesii) goes for construction wood, 2x & 4x dimensional timbers. In a world where steel studs are now available, even preferable, why are we still using wood in millions of homes?
But slow grown Doug fir is also a fantastic furniture quality wood, the subject of occasional articles in FWW. Many gorgeous pieces have been portrayed in these articles. Under the European name "Oregon pine," a real misnomer, even worse than "Doug fir," since it's neither pine (Pinus) nor true fir (Abies), James Krenov has made some beautiful cabinets with this wonderful wood.
A lot of the wood, as much as 80%, hardwood and softwood, actually harvested in the US is shipped overseas to the Far East, Japan and Indonesia, to be made into ceiling fan blades and veneer for the walls of exective suites.
This situation is, I think, comparable to yours in your native Australia. I hope for a solution to this abuse of our natural resources, but I am not optimistic in the short run. I think it will get much worse before people wake up and it gets better.--
Lee in Cave Junction, Oregon
On the Redwood Highway
Ian,
We have enormous Eucalyptus forrests on Maui. But as I understand it, the wood is unuseable as lumber. It can't be dried without severe warping.
Such was the problem also in California. The Gum trees, first planted ironically as a possible lumber source became a terrible fire hazard in the San Francisco Bay area. I remember a fierce fire near Oakland in the early 70s. The live trees actually burned more readily than dead ones because of the combustable oils. They literally exploded in the fire areas, spreading burning oil for hundreds of feet, starting new blazes.
Fortunately, we don't have the conditions on Maui that lead to fires. All the Eucalyptus forrests are on the windward side which gets 400 inches average yearly rain.
Rich
But as I understand it, the wood is unuseable as lumber.There has been a lot of successful experimentation with seasoning things like red gum and it can now be used for cabinetry and furniture without problems, which makes the fact they're still chipping it even worse.I don't know if you remember seeing some of the stuff posted by Dave from Cairns before the change to Prospero but he built the most magnificent furniture using Australian native hardwoods and with a climate in Cairns much like Florida.The bushfires -- yeah, I was in Oz during the bad fires of '82 and they were really frightening, -- huge balls of flame bouncing through the gum trees and everything they touched burst into flames immediately.My eldest son was staying with us from UK at the time and we took him up to Mount Martha to see the devastation the fires had caused. As we went through the town there were guys standing at the intersections with collecting tins."What are they doing?" said Stuart."Collecting for the bushfires" said my (Australian) ex-wife."Here", said Stuart, "Give 'em this box of matches"She was NOT amused.
"Not amused"
Yeah, the residents of the East Bay around Oakland would not have been amused either. There was awful devastation. I believe that the Gum tree is pretty much despised there. I remember hearing about plans to remove as many of them as possible, but don't know what happened.
Rich
Rich, that fire was in the summer of 1991, not the 70's. I had just moved from the SF Bay Area (East Bay, San Leandro) to Oregon in February of 1991, and my Dad still lived (and still lives) on the SF Peninsula. Watching the devestation on the TV was like a horrible nightmare. My next visit to the area was not fun either.
I remember that a well known Berkeley luthier, whose name naturally escapes me at the moment, lost everything in that fire, his shop, his tools, his work in progress. I hope and pray that he has been able to recover from the disaster.--
Lee in Cave Junction, Oregon
On the Redwood Highway
Lee,
I had just moved to Maui in June 1991, and I didn't remember that fire until your post- I was pre-occupied with other things then! I vaguely remember something about the Luthier recovering many of his belongings. Steve Grimes is a well-known Luthier here on Maui. I recall talking to him about it.
I moved to the East Bay (actually Dublin, CA) In July 1970. I was stationed at Oakland Naval Hospital. There was a terrible fire there that year or 1971.
Rich
Edited 10/15/2002 6:17:19 PM ET by Rich Rose
Not near as devestating as the '91 fire. There were many fires throughout the years, some big, some small. In the mid-70's I was living in San Carlos, on the SF Peninsula, and working in medical electronics, including the Nuclear Medicine Dept at Oakland Navy Hosp. Were you still there then? I worked for GE Med Systems with responsibility for the gamma cameras and the computers to which they were attached, and tended to do my best work after normal working hours.
BTW, in 1979, we (my now ex and I bought a house in San Ramon where I lived until we split in '85. I then lived in a San Ramon apartment complex until moving to San Leandro in '88. Looks like we were reasonably close neighbors for awhile. Too bad we never met, or did we?
--
Lee in Cave Junction, Oregon
On the Redwood Highway
Edited 10/15/2002 6:34:31 PM ET by Lee
Lee,
I was at Oaknoll from July '70 to July '73. I drove through the area last year. Not only is the facility completely gone, the region has been entirely re-landscaped so that I couldn't even determine where it had been. It was wierd, driving through the East Bay 30 years later. Everything was the same, just older. But Dublin was a nightmare. When I was there it was just a sleepy little bedroom community. Little more than the junction of 580 and 680. Now it's vast with a population density to rival L.A.
Rich
Edited 10/15/2002 6:38:22 PM ET by Rich Rose
When we moved to San Ramon, we could see cows grazing a block away. On my last visit, well, wall to wall people, concrete, cars, ARGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!
I ain't never goin' back!
--
Lee in Cave Junction, Oregon
On the Redwood Highway
I haven't worked bloodwood at all. I haven't seen it available even from any of my Spokane-to-Boise suppliers, but maybe one of these times when i get out to the west coast i can get a piece and try it out. I once spent a splendid afternoon tromping with Myles Gilmer of Gilmer Wood through the nether regions of his warehouses, pulling up all sorts of old shorts and things i'd never tried--what a treat!
Splintie,
You can get small samples of Redheart and Bloodwood from Woodcraft.
Redheart is a very beautiful wood. Harder and more dense than Padauk. It polishes wonderfully. While its coloration is similar to Padauk, it's grain is at the other end ofthe spectrum. The pores are almost too tiny to see. But they're so numerous that the polished surface looks like ground glass.
Bloodwood is a trifle more orange than Redheart. (it's also called Cardinal wood). Its pores are about halfway between Padauk's large size and Redheart's micro size. It's more dense and harder than Redheart. Very heavy. Polishes beautifully.
Rich
Splintie,
I've just located a supplier for Redheart and Blood wood:
Eisenbrand Exotic Woods
4100 Spencer St.
Torrance, CA
90503
They call Redheart, "Chakte Coc."
Rich
I've seen it spelled "chakte kok", too. Torrance is..oh, about 3-4 days drive from here... <G>
I have some redheart (i googled it--interesting to see its relation to coca leaves!), but will have to keep an eye out for the bloodwood in my travels.
Hey,
Finding a supply as "close" as Torrance is great for someone trapped on this hell-hole in the middle of the Pacific!
Oh, the price we pay for living in paradise.
R
One of my craft fair buddies, a woodworker named Otto, moved to Hawaii several years ago...to Maui i seem to recall. His wife got a teaching job there and they came back once to sell their house in northern Idaho...haven't seen them since. I'll bet he gets nostalgic for those 3-6' snowfalls.
Splinyie
There are sooooo many people here trying to sell "art" at swap meets, outdoor exhibits, etc. Haven't run into Otto, that I know of.
R
I have been aquiring lately a good few old power poles. I am using them primarily for building various structures around the place, but have noticed some have fantastic colour. They are all Eucalypts of various sorts. Some are obviously jarrah, others are pale, brown etc. All are very very heavy.
I have found a sawmill that will cut them. Once I have established feasibility with regard to price, travel etc, I will probably get some done. There are currently 6 MONSTER poles in the yard. A foot in diameter at the skinny end and 12 meters long. And sooooooo heavy. Will make for interesting furniture I think.
Anyway, what do you guys make your power poles out of, and is it a posible source of cheap timber? I get mine for $30 each.
Wood Hoon
I am not sure what woodworking for a long time means. To me it would be 30 or 40 years experience as I have only 20 years.
When I build a complex piece, I start by drawing the piece to scale. (I do not purchase plans because in most cases the company/person will send you a picture and that is all that is needed to copy the design, besides I enjoy drawing). Drawing takes considerable time but it also gives me time I think about joinery, gluing, fastening, and finishing. This highlights problem areas. By the time I cut my first board, I have cut and built the project in my head many times. If a project is complex, it can usually be broken down into subassemblies. For large glue ups an extra set of hands that know what they are doing makes a world of difference.
My method of work has always been start small and work big. Don't be afraid to practice on some scrap material.
I don't consider a brad nailer cheating. I consider it highly resourceful!!! LOL
The brad nailer and a speed square can get you right where you want to be when it comes time to clamp. I also built some riser blocks that come in mighty handy when shoving clamps underneath cabs.
I'm into my next project and having a terrific time!
Bill
Oh! I feel so smart! Yeah, I love that little brad nailer outfit. Whatever Norm's shortcomings, I owe him big for demonstrating to me how useful a brad gun is!
Hope you're posting your pearls of wisdom over in the Clamping thread -- I'm on my way over now to check it out.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
HI,forest girl Ill try and help with this topic. When I build a kitchen cabinet I start with the frame making sure all dimentions are correct, then measure off the frame for all carcase box parts, after assembling the box I glue and clamp the frame to the box , I run a 1/8 wide bead of glue on the box face while laying the box on its back, for base cabinets Ill work off the floor on a sheet of melamean, for uppers I work off a table, NOW IT GETS INTO CLAMPING. All my assembly clamps are cut to the same length (pipe clamps) so they can be used like legs to hold up the box while clamping the frame on ,for example I lay my frame on the 1/8 glue beads on the carcase slide the carcase to the edge of my assembly table , clamp the corners so the pipe acts like aleg then do the same on the opposite corners , now mytable is clear for the next cabinet , Ican slide the cabinet around on the corner clamps out of the way then finish clamping the frame on, longer clamps can be inverted to utilize all sizes of clamps in my collection. I check to make sure the cabinet isnt twisted with a pair of winding sticks, the same thing can be done on aset of saw horses, but for me the horses get in my way, and its harder to move the cabinet, if need be.
hope this can help
mark cherry cabinets.
Can I copy this and paste it into a message in the "Clamping" thread referenced above?? That way, all the "pearls" will be in the same place! Of course I'd give you the credit, LOL!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Yes, please do.
mark
Jamie,
Guess my ears were burning. I'm flattered that you included me in such elite company.
Any who, I've taken your "just ignore" mantra to heart. <grin> Didn't know what he was trying to glue up. Too bad Taunton/Prospero still hasn't done anything with the so called search function; there have been many excellent discussions prior to The Move on gluing/clamping strategies....Oh well.
Dano
Clamping strategies? On a complex assembly do a test run, ( no glue ) to determine the best way to proceed. Organize all your clamps, glue, rubber mallets and soforth so that you can grab them quickly and easily for final glue up. Pre-sanding parts and components before assembly can also increase efficiency.
Does that help?
Glendo.
Jamie, oddly enough I went to the Taunton Store to get a "Fine Gardening" gift subscription for my mom's birthday today, and decided to take a look at the "Best of FWW" CD that's for sale.
Turns out, the sample article is all about gluing and clamping strategies! Here's a link... if it doesn't work, then you can just click on the "sample article" link on the left-hand side of the page that describes the product:
https://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/pdf/FWW141-044.pdf
David
I think Lon Schleining says it all.
Yeah, it's a pretty comprehensive article. I wonder if all 500 articles are that way? Anyway, that was the subject of a LONG thread a few months ago, so I won't re-start it. :-)
DavidHmmm... the garden or the workshop today?
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