Replies

1. 
   BG | Jul 29, 2009 02:21am | #1

   Tony Z,

   I've been watching your post hoping someone would respond. Every time I've asked the question I get a blank stair or "there is a way" and then they change the topic.

   If we did have an expert respond the first question I'd be curious about is how to blend the various colors of poplar to at least start with a homogeneous base color to build off of.

1. 
   Tony Z | Jul 29, 2009 03:21am | #2

   Well, my post of last night showed up in "Workshops" (I think)!  I've seen several published suggestions, and I'm more mixed up than ever!

   I'm probably going to go with my first thoughts, that is a dye, and then a film type topcoat, with many coats to give some depth to the finish and protection to the relatively soft poplar.

   T.Z.

1. 
   DonStephan | Jul 30, 2009 02:31am | #4

   Given that poplar can range from off white to dark brown/purple/green I would wonder if first it would be necessary to  bleach to get an even starting point.  Jeff Jewitt's books address the various types of bleaches and uses of each; other authors may cover also.

   Regarding applying a number of coats of finish to protect the relatively soft poplar, keep in mind that a thicker finish is more likely to chip if the underlying wood is dented.  You might consider experimenting on a range of poplar colors, with different numbers of topcoats, and then use and abuse to test the protection.

2. 
   DonC | Jul 29, 2009 06:38am | #3

   I ahve tried many oil base chery stains and attempted to mix the color I like BUT to my surprise plain ol' Ace Hardware cherry is just right IMO. Sometimes the simple answer is the best.

3. 
   brownman | Aug 19, 2009 08:03am | #5

   Rockler Woodworking Store just had a sale on cherry for $2.99 a board foot. To bad you couldn't have got that to build your project.

1. 
   Tony Z | Aug 19, 2009 01:09pm | #6

   Cherry lumber wasn't the problem!  I got plenty of cherry (100+ bf S2S in the shop, 500+ stickered outside--this was harvested 50 plus years ago and had mud/weeds all over & planes to a very deep red color, plus walnut & oak & poplar).

   My issue is that the cigar bar I built is for my daughter's wedding this Saturday.  The bar will be on the veranda of our country club for the enjoyment of the sex that doesn't typically enjoy hoity-toity wedding receptions (plus an outdoor pellet/airgun range).  I didn't want to use prime lumber for a piece that will be used outside for a few hours.  It will be moved into my daughter's rec. room to be used until full remodeling occurs with a proper built in bar.

   I used poplar and finished it with a recipe supplied to me by "The Old Millrat" from "The OldTools List".  First you dye the wood with water based aniline dye, using roughly 1/2 teaspoon each of blue and red dyes, mixed with 400 ML water.  Second you coat with garnet shellac (I did two coats).  For most jobs this will give a satisfactory finish, but since this is a bar, I also gave 5 coats of "wipe-on" poly.  After dyeing the poplar looked like Barney the purple dinosaur.  After applying garnet shellac, the poplar looked very much like walnut and gave a very nice finish.  I would highly recommend trying this formula.

   T.Z.

1. 
   brownman | Aug 19, 2009 07:55pm | #7

   Thanks for sharing your finishing experience. It's nice that poplar finishes up so nicely, since it's the least expensive hardwood currently on the market. I just built a bathroom and medicine cabinet with poplar. I used a black alcohol based aniline dye and finished with about six or eight coats of lacquer. Then I sanded progressively from 600 grit to 1200, followed by a buffing with 3M brand " Perfect 5000" for a mirror like finish. I did this so their appearance would tie in with the black granite counter top. A lot of work but turned out very nice.

4. 
   GaryW | Aug 19, 2009 08:07pm | #8

   Why not use cherry to begin with?  It'll likely save you more than the cost difference in the time it'll take to try to make poplar look like cherry, which I don't think can be done.

   Gary W

   gwwoodworking.com

1. 
   Tony Z | Aug 19, 2009 08:09pm | #9

   Don't bet on it, as I don't think I've ever finished any wood as quickly as I did this poplar, with results this good.  Try the recipe and see for yourself.

1. 
   GaryW | Aug 19, 2009 08:19pm | #10

   You didn't get my point:  cherry already looks like cherry, with a different texture as well as the color than poplar, so why spend the time trying to stain and texture one wood to look like another? Gary W

   gwwoodworking.com

1. 
   Tony Z | Aug 19, 2009 10:18pm | #11

   I really didn't spend anymore time on the poplar than I would on cherry!  Personally, I would agree with your point of view, except many times when we build, it is not for us!  I Like the look of cherry hit with BLO and then waxed or for more protection something like General Arm-R-Seal.  Depending upon the time of year, if sunny, I've also put the stock outside for a day or two.

   I did a sideboard earlier this year (for home as I'm a hobbyist) that my wife wanted darker than the immediate results of cherry & BLO or the General finish.  I had to go with a gel stain and the topcoat.  The finish I used on the poplar was extremely quick & easy.  The longest wait was for the garnet shellac to dissolve

1. 
   BG | Aug 20, 2009 11:42am | #12

   Tony,Thanks for posting your solution, it will be nice to have an option for poplar other than painting.I must ask, however, you ended up with a walnut look and you were hoping for cherry. Did the posters provide any guidance on a cherry look?

2. 
   Tony Z | Aug 20, 2009 12:40pm | #13

   Yes and no!  It was suggested to experiment with the amount of blue and/or red dye.  Final impression is your own! I say it looks like walnut, my wife says cherry.  I have no idea what the wood will look like in six months, although aniline dyes are supposed to be color fast/non-fading and the poly topcoat should offer protection.  I have not really used much poly for the past decade and I suspect it may yellow a bit as it ages.

    

3. 
   BG | Aug 20, 2009 06:48pm | #14

   Tony Z,As long as the CFO says cherry...clean up the shop and run like hell.

4. 
   Tony Z | Aug 20, 2009 08:15pm | #15

   Never clean the shop--especially the spider webs!!!!

5. 
   trialnut | Aug 21, 2009 07:26pm | #16

   Spider webs??? I thought those were dust filters.The Professional Termite

6. 
   Tony Z | Aug 21, 2009 08:25pm | #17

   Most of them are on the dust collector!

2. 
   MadisonRenovations | Aug 22, 2009 06:36am | #18

   I think poplar is too porous for a light stain/dye. But it does well with a dark stain. I matched my mahogany window stools fairly well.By the way, to get the green out, put it in the sun for a while.---mike...

5. 
   HowardAcheson | Aug 22, 2009 08:07pm | #19

   Here is something I saw a number of years ago. I've used it a couple of times and it works well.

   Obviously, the best way to get the look of cherry is to use cherry. But, with a bit of effort and a couple of extra steps, you can massage poplar (soft maple, birch, etc.) to resemble cherry. The first thing that you have to understand is that poplar does not take pigment stain, especially the so-called “penetrating stain” very well. It does, however, react fairly predictable to water-soluble dye. With that in mind here is the schedule that I used to convert poplar to something that reasonably resembles cherry

   I began by mixing one-part of rosewood dye concentrate and one-part of brown mahogany dye concentrate with 18-20 parts distilled water (the dye concentrate is first made by mixing one-ounce of dye powder in one-pint of hot distilled water). Applying this to the poplar “killed” the green of the poplar and gave me the canvas on which to build the faux cherry.

   I then “sealed” the dye color by applying a 2# cut of super blonde shellac which I lightly sanded with 320g after it was dry—sand just enough to smooth the surface. The shellac “barrier coat” prevents the pigment stain to come from altering the color of the dye. It also prevents the stain from coming in direct contact with the difficult to stain poplar, thus eliminating the problem of “blotching”.

   Follow the shellac with the “cherry” wiping stain of your choice. Try to use a pigment only stain (in other words, don't use a Minwax stain). In this case I used General Finishes Georgian Cherry gel stain but any number of wiping stains would have done just as well. The key is to apply the stain and then wipe it back off until you get the look that you want. You only need the thinnest coat of pigment stain over the shellac sealed dye to produce the desired effect. In reality, you are using the stain as a “glaze” in this application.

   After the stain is cured, topcoat with your desired finish (top panel). In this case I used Waterlox Original Sealer/Finish applied as a wipe-on varnish.

   Howie.........
1. 
   MadisonRenovations | Aug 22, 2009 09:51pm | #20

   note: I read that red dye fades most quickly of all colorings. Be careful if matching to actual cherry, which will get redder as faked cherry lightens.---mike...

1. 
   peter28 | Aug 23, 2009 06:41am | #21

   Mike,

   The dye is not adversely affected by light as it is layered under the pigmented glaze coat.

   Also, I'm sure you've seen cherry get sun bleached and lighten considerably. I've got a small cherry table with an oil finish that sits in a window facing west. It has no stain or dye and other than where the phone sits, it has bleached out to a very pale color.

   The color Howie described is a deep rich color. You mentioned in a prior post you don't think poplar assumes a light color very well. Check out next months FHB. The section called Master Carpenter will have a short article on doing just that.

   For that matter check out this months FHB. The article on finishing doors has the schedule Howie described; dye, shellac and then gel as a glaze. Page 46 will show a sample door that has just Georgian Cherry Gel on a pine door. That color is actually a deep purplish red. By itself on the pine it looks like crap.When layered over a medium yellow dye, which is the compliment to purple, it creates a nice warm golden brown.

   Color is an amazing and infinite tool.

   Peter 

1. 
   MadisonRenovations | Aug 23, 2009 09:42am | #22

   Peter,Perhaps the dye will be protected by the top layers, but I'm pretty sure dye doesn't hold color as well as pigment, although some are better than others.I think the washcoat with glaze might help the poplar problems significantly. The grain takes in stain in an unpleasant sort of way - lots of little lines. This effect is less noticeable with darker overall coloring. However, surface coats would seem more prone to showing nicks and scrapes.I've used an odd technique for fairly dark casing and baseboards. Watco dark walnut (to get the asphaltum) wash, immediately wipe off, Transtint dark mission red/brown (?) and vintage maple fairly strong with addition red straight-up to darken to the right tone, then wipe off. Then glaze with shellac and the Transtint dyes. Matches the mahogany pretty well, and has nice color depth, but fairly dark. It seems to be holding up pretty well after a few years.Pine has it's own blotching problems, but it doesn't have the streaky pores that poplar does. Grain filler can work, but that's also additional effort.---mike...

1. 
   peter28 | Aug 24, 2009 05:30am | #23

   Mike,

   "perhaps dyes are protected by the top layers (of pigment). Not perhaps, it is.

   A question on your application; you use the asphaltum as the ground color and then add more color with Trans Tints. In what solvent do you mix them?

   You then add some more dye to shellac. This becomes a toner not a glaze.

   From the description of your color, fairly dark sounds like an understatement. Color value is the light or dark of a color. Basic glaze principals state that when colors with like values are used over one another they tend to offset each other. Try a lighter value as a ground and then deepen it progressively. You can also use a light value over a deep value ground for different effects.

   You feel dye "doesn't hold color" but your color formula, other than the asphaltum, is completely dye.

   Peter

2. 
   MadisonRenovations | Aug 24, 2009 08:36pm | #24

   I know what I've done is all dye, because I disliked what I got with pigment. I shellacked so that if I needed to, I could wash off the top coat and start over without having to re-sand.I used Watco to darken evenly without the blotching and grain streaks, but more of as a washcoat to control the penetration of the TransTint. I used water as the TransTint solvent, which was able to penetrate the Watco. The color mostly stays if I wash with alcohol. Then I cut SealCoat shellac and add more tint. It has a lot of depth that a similar gel stain lacked.Sorry I got my glaze and toner definitions wrong. I was being too lazy to look up which was which and figured I had a 50% chance of getting it right, and a higher chance of what I did being understood, even if I messed up the terms. :-)My point about holding color had more to do with application. Poplar isn't cherry, and staining it won't have the same darkening/fading effects, so it was just a note to be careful, particularly if it'll be placed against the real deal.The few people I've talked to haven't been too happy staining poplar, and some outright avoid it. ("It's only good if you can paint over it.") I think it stains okay with dark shades, but would be very careful with light shades.---mike...
   Cambridge, Mass.

3. 
   peter28 | Aug 24, 2009 10:30pm | #25

   Mike,

   To each his own.

   Peter