Replies

1. 
   SteveSchoene | Jul 24, 2009 11:55pm | #1

   Not a good idea, at least as far as the particulars.  The problem is that when applying varnish by hand it is almost impossible to get it on smoothly enough that the dye and/or pigment looks streaky and uneven.  In an extreme version, for example PolyShades, a product that does the same thing, has created anguish for many of those who have tried it. 

   The best approach by hand is to start with some dye directly on the maple.  Powdered water soluble dye penetrates maple well.  With the dye to establish a base you can then use a gel stain to get to the dark color you are looking for. 

   If "blotching" is also a problem, using dye won't eliminate it entirely, but dye does blotch less than your usual stain.  Again, to minimize blotch, seal the dye with a wash coat of shellac so that the stain contributes very little to blotching. 

   Now your basic concept is a good one--in fact a mix of color with top coat--called a toner is a very common commercial method, but it really works best with fast drying finishes that can be sprayed and built up in several coats to the right about on coloration. 

1. 
   Chief | Jul 25, 2009 03:58pm | #2

   Thanks for your advise. I'll try it... Just out of curiosity, what do the commercial cabinet makers (e.g. Kraftmaid, Merillat, etc.) use as their finish? And what is a toner?
   Chief of all sinners.

1. 
   SteveSchoene | Jul 25, 2009 04:27pm | #3

   Toner is just a top coat material with added color.  It is common commercially, since it is a simple way to avoid blotching issues, and also, in many cases a low cost way of obscuring mis-matched woods.  Commercial makers also spray dyes and stains, sometimes with some hand wiping (mostly to remove excess, not to apply) still in the process.  You will seldom see industrial makers of cabinets use a simple one or two product finishing schedule.  While added steps add costs, those costs are offset by control and consistency of results. 

   The commercial finishers likely use some variant on conversion varnish as a top coat, a two part finish that is very tough, reducing damage in transit as well as in use, and with one particular attribute that makes it particularly attractive to industrial manufacturers.  That propery is that it cures quite quickly so that it takes very little time curing before it can be wrapped, stacked, and shipped.  That reduces necessary curing space, warehouse space, and also the necessary amount tied up in inventory.  All that means money saved. 

   The downside is that it is very hard to repair or refinish.  The other aspect that makes it not very feasible for non-commercial use is the toxicity of the solvents.  Go to Sherwin-Williams pro site and look up the MSDS for one of their commercial conversion varnish products.  It might scare you half to death.  But, in a full scale manufacturing operation, the equipment to contain the exhaust, and to provide full scale protection to the workers isn't onerous from a cost perspective.  The actual application process isn't all that much different from spraying solvent based lacquer. 

   That's a pretty simplified picture, far from complete, and one that is changing as environmental rules also change and products are refined and developed in responce to those changes.  I'd expect others with more industrial and commercial experience could add considerably. 

1. 
   Chief | Jul 28, 2009 02:50pm | #4

   Thank you for your responses to my posts. I purchased some dye and experimented on a piece of wood. With the dye applied first, pre-stain conditioner second, and then stain. Bingo! I got the color and evenness I was looking for.Again, thank you for carving out your time and sharing in detail your knowledge on this stuff. I'm sure the client will be pleased with the final result. This may also turn into future work with them. The Owner had just bought this house and is looking to do more built-ins in an office and a large coffer ceiling in the living room. You've aided in my effort to provide for my family, and for that I am extremely grateful.Chief of all sinners.