Having read some of the comments on the Dewalt thicknesser,It appears that most of the home shops in the USA use a portable bench 12″ thicknesser in preference to a planer-thicknesser, combined.
If this is true does that mean that, to machine a face side and face edge in order to use the thicknesser you all have separate a stand alone jointer?
If this is the case then why are two machines used in preference to the one planer thicknesser?
Mike
Replies
Strongbo1,
Your correct in your conclusion. Many home shops here have jointers and planers(thicknessers) as seperate tools. Let me be honest, I don't know what a combo machine looks like...also, I don't have a jointer...just hand planes and a straight edge for the TS...
I have often thought about that same question. But the answer is actually quite simple. Here in the states, a jointer/planer is a very rare item. Until a few years ago, there was one available from Hitachi (I think), but now there are none.
I believe that the reason that there are none available, is that the price of separate machines is lower than the price of a single combined machine. Here we can get an excellent 13" 'portable' planer for about $450, and a reasonably good 6" jointer for $400. The last time I saw a combined-purpose machine for sale, it was priced at $1300.
But it is difficult for me to believe that a good combination machine couldn't be designed for less than $1300. With the jointer table going across the top, and the planer path going through the middle, there could be a single motor, and a single set of blades. It just seems that this is possible, and that it would be less expensive.
You know that sounds strange to me.
A 6inch jointer can only face side wood to a max of 6inches wide ( to take the bow out etc) and then you push it through a 13 inch thicknesser??
You can buy a Dewalt 10 inch planer thicknesser over here for arrd £550 ( 800$?) it will take a 61/2 thick through the planer (max)
Maybe it has something to do with glueing sections together so you use the 6inch as a standard, glue a couple of piece together and then thickness the stock through the planer...if you get what I mean.
Neverthe less it's strange that the marketing people at these machine manufacturers should have different strategies for different countries. Over here we seem only to have the Dewalt portable thicknesser, marketed as a site thicknesser, but plenty of planer-thicknessers on the market.
There are combo jointer-thicknessers available in the US, but not quite at the Delta-Powermatic price point. I know of ones from Felder, Robland, Rojek, and Hammer. 12" units are in the $2500-$3500 area. They provide not only 12" planing, but also 12" jointing.
The combination jointer-planers that you mention...... Do they utilize a single motor, and a single cutterhead?Vast projects should not be founded on half vast ideas.
My Robland 12" has a single 4hp motor. Three fuctions; jointer, planer, horizontal morticer. One set of knives, (3), loads of cast iron, great electrical controls. Very easy set-up and change over, maybe 20 seconds from jounter to planer and back. For a small shop, these are the best idea ever, footprint is only about 12 square feet.
Go to http://www.right-tool.com and take a look at the Rikon RPJ-10 machine, its a Chinese copy of an Inca type machine that costs $595.00. The blade width is 10 inches. I haven't actually used one, but I saw it at a show and it appeared to be very well made.
John W.
The ones in the lower price bracket do.
But when you go into the $2500 price range they have independant motors. All the lower price range come with 2 years warranty, although you have to remove the outfeed table and flip over a guard to cover the planer which you will now be using below the table for the thicknessing op. Some have microswitches on them for safety and to make sure you have the appropriate guards in place.
Again they are branded as German or UK or European but as we know they are all built by China or Taiwan.
Mike
"Again they are branded as German or UK or European but as we know they are all built by China or Taiwan."
Strongbo1, do you have hard evidence for that statement, or was your statement just supposition? Slainte.Website
My local supplier has his staff taken for product training by the firms mentioned and from what they have told him, even Dewalt who have a factory over here have parts made all over the world.
It seems that some of the companies rely on overseas full build and quality control, while some import the parts and assemble at home using in house quality control....while some do actually build the higher price machinery in house.
The factor for buying especially Dewalt over here seems to be that if there is a problem with any machines they will replace, no questions.
Dewalt seems to be the products used by any quality building contractor and seems to have stood the test of time.
Hope this helps
Mike
That's intersting, Mike. I wasn't aware that outsourcing was quite so prevalent for many of the European made machines. Thanks.
I wonder if it also applies to some ot the makers of heavier durty machinery, such as Martin, Felder, and SCMI. I think-- but I'm not absolutely sure-- that Altendorf for instance have set up a plant in China to make slightly outdated model(s) of their saws which they sell at a lower price than their latest top of the range stuff. Slainte.Website
RJ
Altendorf do have a factory in China making replicas of the older F90 & F45 panel saws & are quite up front in their brochure about it. They still manufacture their top of the line saws in Germany which gives them two ranges/prices.
The matter of planer/thicknessers vs stand alone machines will no doubt be on-going as IMHO it depends on what a maker requires of his gear. In my shop (apprentice & me) we use 2 combinations & a planner (jointer). Often timber is straighened on the panel saw before jointing. One of the combinations (a 14" Sicar) has been modified to thickness without lifting the tables which was a simple matter of building a new extractor hood, & it will soon have a roller fitted to guide timber onto the bottom (thicknessing) table. This setup works for us 95% of the time.
Possibly if I turned back time I may have opted for a 24" SCM thicknesser or similar but they were about 5x the price of the combo & I'd still need a jointer........
PS: I realy enjoyed your article in F&C on finishing open grained timbers as some of our indigenous sp. have an open grained nature similar to the nothern hemisphere's ashes & oaks. Good stuff.
Don
I'm pleased to hear you found something useful in that article, Don. Feedback of any sort, from any source is helpful to me as a writer. It lets me know what I'm doing right, and what I'm doing wrong, and it guides me towards adjustments I should make in the subject matter and how I describe it.
I wonder, are you inspired to try the contrasting grain filler technique in some of those Ocker timbers, or is it too gaudy for your taste? Interestingly, I've just sold that table, and the new owner is wowed by the unusually coloured grain filling-- I assume we are talking about the same piece I used as an example. Slainte.
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What magazine would F&C be?
Furniture & Cabinetmaking (F&C) is a British magazine, Don. I drivel for them from time to time, as well as in the American magazine, Woodwork. Slainte.Website
I doubt drivel would be the word, but I wonder if you feel there is a significant difference between woodworking magazines in GB and the North America? If so, in what way? Thanks.
Counting down to the 7th huh? Here's wishing you a pleasant last few days, and sober when need be----or not!
Don
Don, no doubt their are differences in editorial decisions, and there is less choice in the UK, with probably about five or seven magazines aimed at the amateur/ small professional as opposed to maybe ten or twelve to pick in the US. F&C and Fine Woodworking aim for the amateur/small professional reader, for example. I suspect the readership of both magazines is probably about 80% amateur
I'd say that, overall, magazines from both sides of the pond cover the gamut of the subject from carving, to turning, to furniture design and making topics. The primary differences I can think of are driven by the differently configured machinery typically used which leads to different working practices. Dado blades for instance don't get much of a mention in British magazines unless the author is American, and planer/thicknessers are quite common as opposed to separate machines. Apart from that, British terminology is somewhat different, and the British reader looks more to European sources for historical precedents.
Naturally, British magazines report more on the British scene than they do on what's happening in the US, yet recently for instance F&C visited the Lie-Neilsen(sp?) factory and produced an article on Tom Lie-Neilsen and his work. Slainte.Website
Richard,
It is the historical precendent that I was mostly curious about. My primary occupation as a decorative plasterer draws on what was documented in Europe and the middle east more then the US for hand work. The wood workingpattern making side of the business is evenly distributed historically, but a lot more documentation comes out of Europe for the trade as a whole. I've often wondered about the early history here and the mind set of the early craftsman that so much of their history is oral and undocumented. With restoration work, I usually start by researching the immagration history of an area, and the time of construction and previous repairs. From there it's research of European documentation because of different styles and working habits between the Brits, Germans, Scots, Italians, Serbs, etc. Sometimes it's a futile effort, sometimes not.
Don
Decorative plaster is not a subject I know much about, Don. But I do know about being decoratively plastered, ha, ha--- ha, ha, ha. Slainte.Website
RJ
My apprentice is pretty keen to try the contrasting filler effect when we find the right timber. I'm not as hopeful as he is using indigenous species as I think that the lack of grain definition (as in true oaks) will result in a splotchy effect. He's keen to prove me wrong so I'll help all I can in the interests of promoting a fresh approach, failing that we'll try some Am white oak I have tucked away.
I appreciate that feedback is important to authors as a good mate of mine writes for Aust Wood Review & he occassionally picks my brain on one aspect or another of his subject. He then seeks a critique which is usually delivered with great gusto over several bottles of red around the sacrifical burning of the offcuts, outside the workshop door.
The best of luck with the move back to the Old Dart.
Don
Do let me (us?) know where your students experiments lead to if you get the chance, Don.
I don't get much feedback. I just write and send, and the publisher pays, but some are slower payers than others. And the slowest payers pay the least, ha, ha.
Yeah, I'm looking forward to a real autumn for the first time in years, and a bitterly cold winter too with luck, and being surrounded by rugby starting in early October freely available will seem like heaven. Slainte.
Website
You know Richard, autumn has been available all the time, just not in Houston. Just an SUV ride away.
Don
RJ
Shame you can't detour thru here for the World Cup. of Rugby.
Will keep you posted on Matt's progress, should be clear to do it around Christmas.
Don
That could be the case.
Do you know the company S.I.P. they are into welding machines?
they have just brought out a range of wood working machinery, sanders extractors etc etc..
well they are marketing a planer ticknesser for £400 ($600) 10" width and it is exactly the same as several other brands, except the introduction price is lower.
and guess where it is made?
I can send you a mag from over here with a review of several low price machines and you can see for yourself.
Send me your address directly to me, not via these pages and I will mail it to you if it is of any interest.
Mike
Which magazine is it, Mike. I subscribe to a couple of British magazines-- F&C, and The Woodworker. I don't think it would be worth sending you my mailing address here as I'm leaving the US next Sunday, Sep. 7 to live and work in GB. Slainte. Website
I have a couple the best being New Woodworker, with several machines being tested. Why are you going and what will you be doing over here??
For all the stick we Brits get from the US it's nice to be able to chat about wood stuff on this site. Strange thing is I don't look at the profile pages of the peole who write on the site...and believe me I some times have mental pictures of people up in the hills choppin' down trees, dressed like lumber jacks for some recipients, and others,guys with huge workshops, like the one the guy has on Welcome to Woodshop Demos, with the place packed full of high quality machinery, and the big Caddie outside on the driveway
One thing for sure, anyone who takes the time to realise that that bit of wood you are wittling away at is well over 100 years old, treats it with respect, and in my book must at least be ok guys.
Good luck on your venture.
Mike
Oh, I'm just heading home to do a bit of teaching at a college in a wee town, about 15- 20 miles east of Oxford, Mike. I'm looking forward to it, but with some trepidation too. I've been out of teaching furniture subjects for a long time, and things have changed.
I've seen one copy of New Woodworker, and that was four or five years ago. I wasn't tempted to subscribe, ha, ha.
You've got the wrong image there. Some, but not all, Americans are extremely sedentary. They drive to the drive through window in their giant gas guzzlers after resting semi-purposefully in their air-conditioned office, and order extra cholesterol 'freedom fries' with their double heart attack in a bun, and the tanker-full of fizzy sugar water.
Meanwhile, I think I'll fire up a Marlboro and have a beer. Slainte.Website
One example is
http://www.minimax-usa.com/j-fs30smart.html
I was looking at this one a couple weeks (I had just bought the MM16 bandsaw from them) ago comparing it the the price of of a high quality 8" jointer and one of the popular portable planers. The two machine option is about a grand cheaper. However, the single machine is 12" for both functions and it does have 4.8 hp. It's an interesting tradeoff...one set of blades to maintain, smaller footprint, 12 jointer, but maybe a pain to go from one function to another, it cost a grand more...
--Rich
I've been looking around at this sort of thing myself... I'm fiddling around w/ a used 13" Craftsman planer, working at getting it functional for a family member, while plotting and scheming as to what I want when I buy my own ;)
Like was mentioned, there was the Inca (Swiss design/Italian manufacture or something like that) but they are pretty much gone, and look to be hard to find parts for. Then I believe Makita made one (just saw one on eBay for $400 starting not long ago) but I'm not sure about availability of blades and other parts for it. Other than that, Laguna has a model for $2500+, or about the price of a good standalone 12" jointer, then MiniMax at $3500+ for a combo machine. Most of the other models I saw went up in price rapidly from there.
I'm not sure how these 'low end' combo machines compare to the equivalent standalone machines. Is the jointer truly the equivalent in performance to a full sized 12" jointer? Similarly, does the planer turn out wood significantly faster, or w/ a nicer finish, than something like say, the new Dewalt 735 'portable' planer?
I'm not slamming the combo machines; I truly wish someone would make something along the lines of say, the Dewalt 735 crossed w/ a Grizzly G0500. Heck, even a Delta DJ20 crossed w/ a 22-580! Something. W/ a price point of under $2k, to be competitive, though something more around $1k-1500 would probably sell better (to compete w/ the combination of a Grizzly 8"x75" ($800) and a Dewalt 735 (~$500).
Monte
Rich,
When you ordered your MM16, did Minimax send you the video of Mark Duginske demonstrating the combination machines, including the planer/jointer, and bandsaw? It seemed the planer/jointer was a pretty good machine. He seemed sold, and sold me on the design of the "Tersa" cutting head. Hard to imagine blades easier to change. I was ready to start the savings fund until really considering the price. Too much for me. I can do what I need to do with handplanes and, occaissionally, with a small jointer. I don't make a living at it, and therefor can't justify that level of expense.
That being said, the U.S.-style jointers have always been a sour frustration to me. I think 8 inches is a bit below a really useful width. Six inches is silly. Still, the jump in price between them is pretty dramatic. I've never really considered either one because I don't want to throw any money at a machine with which I'd be frustrated right out of the blocks. It really is amazing U.S. woodworkers haven't made manufacturers feel a need to produce something better fitted to their needs. Maybe we've normalized our demands to a lower level (i.e., using a jointer only to edge joint, rather than truing a face side.) To tell you the truth, if I need to true more face sides than my hand planing can handle in a reasonable time, I'll just build a sled of the kind set out in FWW (forgot which #, but it's referenced in Gary Rogowski's current edition article on wood movement and dimensioning timber), then use my thickness planer, turning IT into a kind of combination machine.
Cheers,
Greg
I'm not positive but I seem to remember in the dark ages (70's) that Inca made a combo machine. It was expensive then, as I seem to remember. I bought the tilting table with attached mortiser in the 70's. I still have it (sort of for sale) but I like my Jet much better. Bigger table, better fences, heavier, more room in front of the blade. But, for ripping, the Inca is a gem!!!!This is in response also to the earlier brouhaha about Jet and its lack of innovation, ethics, etc.
What does the best job for me is more (most)important than your opinions about the company and its ethics, or its paint job, the logo, or anything else that does not convince me that the machine is not worth the money for the purpose for which I want to use it.
Harry
Haha Harry. Have to agree with you now. For innovation, this Jet! haha Guarantee you what ever you like about your Jet, you will find in an earlier machine. Brouhaha? Ain't heard that one in a long time.
If you doubt what I'm saying, next time your at a trade show, talk to Jet about it. They use to make no bones about it. Or if you can, go to a show in Canada where the original Jet is still available and not part of WMH group. Unfortunately you cannot buy those machines in the states though.
Don
Here you go:
http://www.jetequipment.com/literature.html
Bear in mind, this is remnant of what Jet was, not what it is today. Like my opinon or not, that's fine, but please don't trash it because it doesn't suit you for whatever reason.
Edited 8/31/2003 3:15:47 PM ET by Don C.
Edited 8/31/2003 3:16:48 PM ET by Don C.
Sorry if you think I trashed your opinion. That is your inference, not my implication. You arre certainly entitled to your opinion, and I buy based on what the machine does for me at what price. I listen to the experts, the not-so-experts, the idiots, and all those who are in there somewhere. But, my point was only that the machine has done what I want it to for many many years, with no problems, and no expenses. Plus, when I bought it it was considerably less than Delta with more additional options. Things may have changed since then.
Harry,
I assume with the referrence to many, many years, you have a machine with roots in the link I posted, and not what is known as Jet in the US today. There not bad machines, but I look at more then the machine when I consider buying, which by the way is an opinionattitude that has been trashed! I also won't buy anything made in China unless I absolutely have to which is rare. An action and opinion that eludes some.
Don
I cn only apologize once for a misunderstanding. I have done that. Yes, my Jet is unlike those of today. DeWalts of today are not what htey were at one time, alsthough neither are many of us.
I sell 7 1/4 inch blades to framers. They are less expensive than anything else on the market. They can be sharpened, and by the way I own a sharpening service, but many of my customers would rather buy a dozen new blades for $6.00 (US) than pay $4.00 to have them sharpened. That is their choice. By the way, the blades are made in China. I do not like it, but almost all of the "throwaway" blades are foreign made. When the US or Canadian or So. Americans make a comparable product at a comparable price__note I did not say quality product__I will sell those to my customers. In the meantime....
Harry
Riptide Sharpening
7008 Carolina Beach Rd
Wilmington, NC
28428
Hey Harry, no need to apologize at all. Just explaining why I get jumpy on this subject. It started with someone piping in about people complain about Jet and can't back it up. Bear in mind, this is not the first time down this road. I take exception to it, because I do have reasons. Someone else pipes in with "too funny," because I take my opinion of a companys ethics into consideration when purchasing. I took exception to that. The person who started the whole business rides me as cantankorous and ignores my response to the original post made the person who for all intensive purposes started the whole thing to begin with. Well, that's it in a nutshell, and a of of todo about nothing and typical to some of, "opinions are only valid if they are agreeable."
Bottom, Jet of today is not innovative. Talk to them and the old Jet if anyone doubts it.
Don
I hear you. I too am opinionated aboutsome things, and you are right in stating that frequently some people do not read all the messages and then they do not know exactly what is going on.
In my sharpening business I buy only USA or Canadian when possible. Quality and timeliness of shipping, plus I can talk to factory if need be.
The best saw blades I sell are made in the US, bar none. But, there is a segment of the market who only buy by price, and so I have to compete with Home Depot, Walmart, Lowes, and all the other large home centers. Once I get their attention I can usually persuade them to up to quality, but on the other hand a renovator will knock teeth off a 100.00 carbide blade just as quickly as off the $40.00 blade. When he does the math the $40.00 blade wins.
Nice chatting with you.
Harry
I own the Hitachi PR12A. I bought years ago and it's still going strong. I got a great deal on it, $800. It uses one motor and the jointer is removable.
You can still get them but just not everywhere. It's big and heavy. I've checked out the new planers and a lot of them are lighter, but since I don't move mine to job sites it works out great.
Amazon still sells them.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0000223K2/ref%3Dpd%5Fsl%5Faw%5Falx-jeb-2-1%5Fhome%5F195767%5F2/103-3802495-4323836
Len
I know what you mean.
The only one over here that has a fold over full table id the Dewalt DW733s.
If you punch that into Google or Yahoo you will see what it looks like.
Mike
My combo machine stays in line just fine. I have not found the shorter beds to be a problem, it's just like shooting an edge with my Stanley #607. I never heard of the hand tool guy's wanting a 60" jointer plane. As far as a few thousands here or there, well, I have yet to use a micrometer on any of the furniture I've built.
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