Up to last week, I used cheap Stanley planes and blades. I flattened the back of the blades first with sandpaper up to 400 or 600 grit, and then on waterstones, going up to 4000 grit and sometimes 8000. That got me that mirror back quite easily and I was able to then achieve a decent sharpening.
I got a good bonus at the end of the year and finally bought 3 good Veritas planes. Wow. From the box, they work better than anything I could achieve from the old cheap planes.
But something strange happens when I try to flatten the backside of the blades. I have both O1 and A2 blades, and they both have the same “problem”.
The part I do on sandpaper goes as it did with the cheap blades and give me a good mirror finish, with the usual scratches left by the 600 grit.
When I move to the waterstones however, the back becomes dull. I lose the shine and cannot bring it back. I see almost no difference when I move from 1000 to 4000 to 8000 grit.
How is it that I get a better shine from the 600 grit sandpaper than I do with the waterstones?
I seem to have read somewhere that some blades do not react well to waterstones. Could this be what is happening here? Should I stick to sandpaper for those blades, or is there something I might be missing on my waterstone use for those harder blades? I flatten the stones before each use and regularly when I use them on a long sessions. I keep them damp and accumulate the sludge during sharpening. This is what I learned, and it used to do the job on the cheap blades.
Your comments are naturally welcomed.
Replies
I noticed the same thing when I first started using 8000 grit waterstones. Then I noticed that when I looked at my face reflected in the back of the iron in a darker part of my shop, it was a mirror. Under the very bright lights it turned frosted. I started a thread going here just like this one and some of the comments were interesting. Some thought that under lower light the reflection came from the outer surface of the iron and under brighter conditions the light reflected off the bottoms of earlier scratches made by lower grits that had not been completely honed off. One poster named roc had done a study of this and had a bunch of thoughts on the matter. But the real answer is that it doesn't matter anyway. Once the back is flat enough, you can use the ruler trick to hone only a very small back bevel on the tip of the iron so that every time you sharpen the iron the back has only a very small band to be honed.
Deneb Puchalski wrote a great article on sharpening and the ruler trick in Fine Woodworking #213 last year and Lie Neilson planes come with ruler trick instructions too.
Once I post this reply I'll go look for that old thread and edit this to tell you where to find it.
One last thing, the ruler trick is for plane irons only, not for chisels. You don't want a back bevel on a chisel.
EDIT: Here is that thread mentioned above. In Knots, go to the forum Workshop and then down to the thread called "Too Much Light" Lots of fun there but some good information too.
Veritas blades come with flat backs, you should not need to flatten the backs. I usually just give them a pass to remove the wire edge that forms when sharpening.
Having said that I have also noticed there is no "mirror" to the back, it does not matter the back is flat and the blades cut very nice, that is all that matters to me.
I used the wrong term. I am not really flattening the blades, I am "lapping" them. Veritas recommends the following with its new blades: "Most would agree that lapping is an important first step of blade preparation as it smoothes and tures the non-bevel side of the blade, allowing you to develop a keen edge when you hone the micro-bevel." They also state that they flatten their blades "to reduce the time an effort you spend on this activity."
Every piece of documentation I have read about plane blades also mentions that it is an important step to do at least once before sharpening a blade for the first time.
It is true that the blades are quite good straight as received, but you can easily see that the shavings have a slightly rough surface that cannot be compared with what I have seen in demonstrations.
Flattening the Plane Blade Back
Once the back is flattened on a 8000 grit stone with the "ruler trick" there is not need to ever flatten the back again with sandpaper, coarse stone or a medium stone unless the edge is damaged. Each subsequent front plane blade sharping on the 8000 grit stone requires a polish the back with the "ruler trick" to remove the "wire edge" on the 8000 grit stone using light finger pressure for 10 or 15 light strokes. Start with the back blade edge off the stone and stroke perpendicular to the length of the stone and bring the blade edge onto the stone no more than about 5/8 inch.. I do not worry about the shine or a back polish of more than 1/4 inch. Look at the blade with a magnifying glass. Problem: Sandpaper will leave peaks and valleys in the metal back edge that needs to be polished flat. If your using an 8000 grit stone on the back after a proper polish those peaks and valleys are gone. The goal is to make sharpening quick and easy.
Rex Featherston
Flattening the Plane Blade Back
Once the back is flattened on a 8000 grit stone with the "ruler trick" there is not need to ever flatten the back again with sandpaper, coarse stone or a medium stone unless the edge is damaged. Each subsequent front plane blade sharping on the 8000 grit stone requires a polish the back with the "ruler trick" to remove the "wire edge" on the 8000 grit stone using light finger pressure for 10 or 15 light strokes. Start with the back blade edge off the stone and stroke perpendicular to the length of the stone and bring the blade edge onto the stone no more than about 5/8 inch.. I do not worry about the shine or a back polish of more than 1/4 inch. Look at the blade with a magnifying glass. Problem: Sandpaper will leave peaks and valleys in the metal back edge that needs to be polished flat. If your using an 8000 grit stone on the back after a proper polish those peaks and valleys are gone. The goal is to make sharpening quick and easy.
Rex Featherston
Rex, A cutting edge is
Rex,
A cutting edge is formed by the meeting of two surfaces at an angle. Dulling wear happens to both surfaces. If you look at this wear under magnification you'll see it's a lot longer running back from the cutting edge than it is deep. into the surface. Yes, it is possible to hone away the wear on the flat face working only the bevel but you have to remove a lot of steel from the bevel. Even then the flat face needs to be honed to remove the wire edge created in honing.
12º bevel-up planes have accellerated wear to the flat face because of inadequate clearance. One needs to pay particular attention to honing the flat face with these planes or do significant grinding at each sharpening.
The reality is a sharp edge requires maintenance on each of the surfaces forming the cutting edge. The most difficult surface to maintain is the flat face and the ruler trick isn't repeatable because of the very acute angle. Even small variation in how far the cutting edge is placed from the ruler makes for a lot of change in this acute angle. This variable make sharpening using the ruler trick hit-or-miss and unpredictable.
Sharpening
Please describe the very acute angle on the original question concerning the flat back side. My response is for resharpening blades between grindings and did not address back bevels or bevel up sharpening.
Rex: That acute angle thing had me confused too. I think he is talking about the back bevel being acute. But it is so narrow that I don't think there is any problem with it not being "repeatable" and your description on how to do it was perfect. The ruler trick, along with a micro bevel on the front edge of the blade does work, perfectly.
Rex, The angle *tool to
Rex,
The angle "tool to stone" formed by the elevation of the thickness of the ruler, the projection from the ruler and the hypotnuse being the length of the tool being sharpened from the cutting edge to the ruler is what I'm talking about. Charlesworth says it's about 1/2º or something like that. Changing the projection distance of the tool from the ruler very little can easily change that angle by 1/4º or more, it's easy to change the angle by 50º or more. The potential variable is huge when looked at proportionally and this variable makes consistancy, repeatability or dependability iffy at best.
If your stones are flat and properly maintained, you can eliminate the wear bevel on the flat face of the tool is just two to three strokes on each of two stones. This is completely dependable, repeatable and predictable without screwing around with a ruler or any other paraphanalia. It's just easier and works every time. Why screw around with the extra steps and variable of the ruler trick which also results in a growing back bevel that will very soon require extensive grinding to cure?
"it's easy to change the angle by 50º or more" lwilliams
Wow, I had no idea. That ruler must be three inches thick. It was Charlesworth who told me to do this in the first place. I'm so confused. I thought that the fact that the ruler was placed even with the long side of the stone and the tip of the iron started off the stone and was moved onto the stone, at right angles to the long side of the stone, about a quarter of an inch and then back off it again, that the hypotnuse (sic) didn't change at all.
EDIT: Just re read this by the light of day and didn't mean it to sound so snarky. I guess I am looking at this thru the eyes of a new convert and true believer. Did you mean fifty percent, or five degrees? Fifty degrees doesn't sound right.
Changing Hypotenuse
One leg of the triangle is the thickness of the ruler. The second leg is from the ruler to the point where the iron contacts the stone. If the tip is being moved on and off the stone, the length of this second leg is changing. As a result, the hypotenuse would also be changing, and the back bevel will be rounded, not flat.
I use the ruler trick for plane blades only, not for chisels. I try to always position the ruler the same place on the stone. I start the tip of the plane blade 1/4" off the stone and pull it onto the stone about 1/4" (to straighten out the wire edge) and then move the iron sideways only so that the back bevel is flat.
Mr. William's comments are interesting . . .
Snarky
You are being just a big old meany.
Stop it stop it . . . some body make him stop
; {
I meant 50 percent. Now I'm wondering if I should edit the post but I think I'll leave it with the correction here.
The Ruler Trick
Well Larry,
I'm afraid your maths is wrong and thoroughly missleading. The change of angle as the blade is moved is about 0.1 to 0.15 degrees. (I've done the calculation). The back bevel imposed on the blade is approximately 2/3rds of one degree. I see no sign of a fifty per cent change?
As long as the wear bevel is removed from both sides of the blade it will be sharp and I will be working on a much, much smaller area of metal than you. I do agree that care should be taken to remove enough metal.
The ruler hardly qualifies as "paraphenalia" and one certainly does not "screw around with it." It sticks rather nicely in the slurry. This method was developed for waterstones not oilstones. An 8000 waterstone is finer than a hard Black Arkansas.
Now I have been teaching cabinetmaking for about 35 years and it is absolutely clear to me that the ruler trick produces much more consistent results than conventional sharpening methods. The probability of correctly polishing off the wire edge is greatly improved.
Swenson
You mention very good results and I suggest you carry on with my method which you have found to work well. The ruler trick attracts ludicrous objections from people who have probably not tried it and do not understand how it works.
The idea that L-N, Deneb, Chris Schwarz & Rob Cosman would foist this technique on the public if it did not work is frankly laughable.
I'm not clear who Mel is but Ill wager I have done more hand planing in the last 40 years than he has. Salesman my hat.
Best wishes,
David Charlesworth
Mr. C.
Good to hear from you. Your name and motives have been bandied about on this thread for quite some time now. Some of us just like to stir things up a bit, just for fun. I enjoyed your DVD and hope I didn't misquote you. I actually recently met Mel, a very nice man, and he is one of those who likes to get things going here as mentioned above. He mostly hangs out on The Burl forum these days. I do use your method and actually look forward to sharpening now that I have all my gear in one place and ready to go. I keep notes on each iron and chisel for reference. I have not gone as far as roc, who I suspect uses woodworking to dull his irons so he can get back to the real fun of sharpening.
Take care, and thanks for the input.
That Will Teach Me to Be More Genteel (we hope)
Mr Charlesworth,
How are you ? I hope you are doing well !
Thank you for the tip. The slurry helps the ruler stick to the stone. Got it ! That is why I have trouble with the ruler popping loose because I don't flirt with slurry I just wash it off.
Yes, don't take us to heart. We like to bang the table and argue a bit. Pretty sedate compared to the past. You probably know that. Well I am babbling now . . .
Thanks for your books and articles.
"I'm afraid your maths is
"I'm afraid your maths is wrong and thoroughly misleading. The change of angle as the blade is moved is about 0.1 to 0.15 degrees. (I've done the calculation). The back bevel imposed on the blade is approximately 2/3rds of one degree. I see no sign of a fifty per cent change?..."
David,
Are you aware that 015º is 50% greater than 0.1º? Tell me what happens when someone, like Roc, moves their iron to compensate for grooves worn in their stone. How much movement are you allowing for?
I think there's a tendency to dismiss how much effect small angle differences make. I work with small angles all the time. For instance, we use tapered irons. The taper in an iron is only about 3/4 of a degree and if one wants to see what differences small angle changes can make they only need look at a tapered iron.
You say you've calculated this? I'd like to see the math, show it to us.
I only see one way anyone would benefit from the ruler trick and that would be if they haven't properly maintained the flat face of a plane iron and failed hone all the way to the edge during honing. Dubbing or rounding of the edge cause people to miss this. Dubbing can be the result of wear, sandpaper sharpening (almost guaranteed to cause dubbing), out of flat stones, overly aggressive stropping, or intentional dubbing by practices like the ruler trick. Dubbing, regardless of cause has to be removed at each sharpening to get consistent results. The easiest of these to deal with and the shallowest is dubbing caused by wear. I typically completely remove it at each honing with three or four passes on a medium India stone. Other problems can be a challenge and difficult to deal with.
This is unless you suggest leaving intentional dubbing from the ruler trick on the edge. In which case it grows with each sharpening. The bigger it gets the less repeatable and less forgiving it is to small angle changes caused by variables introduced by using the ruler trick in the first place. At some point, probably relatively quickly, it's going to take significant grinding to remove the back bevel dubbing caused by this.
I just don't see any gain. Removing a wire edge is easy and I don't see people having problems with that. The problems I see are all about not honing with each grit all the way to the edge on the flat face. Honing guides tend to cause people to focus on the bevel and the bevel is the easy part.
A couple months ago I was walking past Don's bench when he had a 1 5/8" wide smooth plane iron out and was getting ready to sharpen it. The way the light hit the wear bevel on the back made it visible and I stopped him so I could get a photo. The new software won't let me put it in here so it's attached.
I'm sure he removed the wear easily. He could have done a one-time fix by making it bigger with the ruler trick but then next time he would have to remove the ruler trick back bevel plus the additional or wear or make the back bevel bigger yet. Maybe someone can explain what's gained here?
I haven't taught for 35 years, I've only been occasionally doing a few workshops a year for about eight years. I have made my living at woodworking in one form or another for 32 years. What I see in teaching is that people really need to get the basics down. They need to learn how to get their stones flat, their backs flat and keep them that way. When we walk into a workshop the first thing we do is put away all the school's stones, we just don't have time to correct all the problems. One of the problems we have is that when people learn how easy this can be they want to sharpen all their tools on the well maintained stones we bring with us. Oil stones that should last a couple life-times only make it a few years with us.
It's BLEED'IN OBVIOUS ID'NIT ? ? ?
This is to ALL not just Larry,
I actually got back out of bed so I wouldn't have to remember to post this. I was laying there happy and warm to be in my favorite spot in the whole world, bed, and it came to me.
WHY I DISCOVERED QUITE A WHILE AGO THE RULER THING IS crap.
Sorry Mr C
Take a blade with some camber. Lay the back of the blade flat on the stone. One can polish/flaten the back right ? Now tilt it up like the ruler does. Suddenly only the apex of the curved edge is getting abraded by the stone ! ! !
And
it is getting straightened out.
So
Unless one wants a straight across final finishing blade with releived corners.
The ruller trick is useless for sharpening, taking the bur offf, getting rid of the wear bevel , what ever, on most of the blades a fine cabinet maker tends to sharpen.
End of story, finieeee, lets shutter down boys, final nail in the coffin, I'm going back to bed, I knew I had decided it was stupid but couldn't remember why, last word.
Good night !
PS: (aaaaaah am I missing something here ?)
Ruler Trick
Larry,
I think I see where your 50% comes from but the angles are very small, and not 50% of the back bevel angle.
The maths goes like this; you will need very detailed old fashioned trig tables or a scientific calculator.
An 8000 King stone is 72mm wide. My ruler is 12 mm wide and 0.5mm thick. I assume blade edge will travel from edge of stone inwards by no more than 10 mm.
Therefore the back bevel angles are; (scientific calculator)
.5 divided by 50 = shift, Tan to the -1 = 0.5729 degrees when the edge is nearest the ruler (which is on the edge of the stone).
.5 divided by 60 = shift, Tan to the -1 = 0.4774 degrees when the edge is on the edge of the stone.
Change of angle is 0.0995 degrees
This means that my back bevel is minutely rounded. (Quelle horreur).
I agree totally with every point in you next paragraph (except for the ruler trick one which is not true). Particularly the observation about abrasive paper sharpening.
I have blades whih have been used regularly and sharpened this way for 10 to 15 years. They have never needed "significant grinding" and the ruler trick bevel does not get ever wider as the blade is shortened by work on the bevel. The back bevel is never removed by grinding.
One of the reasons for the RT is that the common method of flattening waterstones are not perfect. It is easy for people to work too long on the coarser grits and wear the stone hollow causing a belly in the back. This is why I developed the technique of keeping the edge of the tool, off the stone, for 50% of the strokes. When placed on a slightly domed polishing stone the wire edge is unlikely to be polished away. Totally agree about basic skills and trashed waterstones in schools. Waterstones need disciplined and frequent flattening, just as you dress your oilstones, which if I may say is a pretty radical technique.
I know my technique works and I don't doubt that your's does too.
BTW Where could one buy a good quality hard black stone these days and which diamond stone do you use for flattening please?
best wishes,
David Charlesworth.
Roc, I fear you are missing a substantial amount!
Don't be afraid. I"m listening. Just tell me.
>Roc, I fear you are missing a substantial amount!<
Well that's not unusual. However, I am extremely keen to learn.
I"m listening. Just tell me.
I can see if I tilt the blade off 90° to the ruler's edge I can get to the curve OFF the apex. Seems too tricky while puckering my butt afraid the ruler is going to slip back off the stone on one end of it. I have even considered double sided tape (until I woke up and came to my senses and asked myself what I was thinking).
10mm stroke is hard to get used to when I am using over half the length of the stone to work on the bevel/micro bevel side of the blade.
One other difficulty is when using a Veritas sharpening jig I can not use the ruler trick if I am going to dress both sides of the blade alternately to get rid of the wire edge. On these modern HSS blades that's hard to pass up.
I have a Sterratt granite surface plate so I KNOW my diamond plate, that I flatten my two fine stones on, is flat. Until I start rubbing the centimeter perimeter of the flat stone with a sharp edge that is. Also when dressing the back of the blade flat on the freshly cleaned stone I can see where the metal is coming off onto the stone (black residue) and tell if there is a problem.
If I were going to really force myself to space the back of the blade off the stone I would be more inclined to double side tape a dot of the ruler to the back of the blade and then that would be more consistent and less likely to have a little accident of the ruler/spacer moving out of situ.
I know you didn't ask me but trying to be helpful here. This is the diamond plate I use. It is extremely flat and stable. This is a killer price by the way, I paid more five or more years ago.
http://www.amazon.com/DMT-W250CXNB-10-Inch-DuoSharp-Extra-Coarse/dp/B00004WFUL/ref=sr_1_18?s=power-hand-tools&ie=UTF8&qid=1296005899&sr=1-18
David, I don't know of a
David,
I don't know of a source for a hard black Arkansas stone that's the same quality of the Norton hard black slip I've been using for a lot of years. While the quarries aren't far from me, a bunch of guys in suits on Wall Street decide what's quarried and when. Maybe someday someone will control the quarries who cares about products as much as short-term profits. Until then the used market is where the good stones are.
I use an extra coarse DMT diamond stone to flatten my oil stones. The ones I've been getting aren't all that flat and tend to have a hollow in the center that runs lengthwise. It's not hard to get stones flat with these as long as you pay attention and check your stones with a straight edge.
I started out in the 70's using oil stones and switched to water stones for a couple years. I found water stones required a lot of space; created a huge mess; couldn't be used in the vicinity of any work in progress; and, worst of all, required more time maintaining them than using them. I then had a very brief and dissapointing experiment with sandpaper sharpening.
As soon as coarse bench-sized diamond stones became available I went back to oil stones and maintained them with a diamond stone. I was suggesting this a long time before any of the "flattening systems" were on the market. I suppose some may think what I do is a "radical technique" but a lot of stone manufacturers have followed in my footsteps. Some people claim the diamond stone makes the stones more coarse but they don't. It's still the abrasive in the stone doing the work. I wonder why no one has suggested the round voids in DMT diamond stones make them more coarse. All dressing the stones does is expose fresh abrasive, just like dressing a grinding wheel.
Soooo umm
Mr. Charlesworth
It is a little dark in here but it looks like from where I'm sitting you tipped your king over on the board there. Is that the case ?
Is there another shoe to fall or was that a one legged being ?
I am always at a loss as to how to proceed after some body "pulls" something like this. A finishing expert here jumped on something I was helping a person with. Basically they said it was wrong. OK. I can accept that. When I asked for clearification on what they recommend and more detail on why what I said was wrong . . .
Silence.
Just "you are wrong". Period.
I thought I pursued it and still silence. Then I come to find out much later they say they never realized I was "still on the line". They just can't understand why I call them a sniper.
They shoot from a blind but when I want a normal discussion they got nothing to share. They say "Who me? I wasn't in that blind." " Yahhhhh That's the ticket".
Then they call me the "troll".
Do I send our illustrious sniper a personal message?
Do I drop it?
Do I assume . . . what?
Bad show if you ask me.
Roc,
Seems to me that if you want to "ruler trick" the back side of a crowned edge, all you need is a french curved scraper clamped to the edge pf the stone in lieu of the ruler. The curve of the scraper can be easily calculated by anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of trig, and calculus, and the computer skills that got apollo to the moon.
Alternatively, you could dig out a hollow in the flat stone to trick your crowned edge backs.
Me (when I want a micro back bevel, which as I said before, isn't too often),I just lift the rear of the blade up off the fine stone a bit, freehand, and draw the thing across the stone, while I rock it from one side to the other. No tans to the -1, no measuring angles to the nearest .00... Lather rinse and repeat two or three times, bevel to back. Then I put the thing in a plane and go back to work. The backbevel is barely big enough to see, just a little white line, hard to tell with my 1/5diopter aided eyeballs from a dull edge. Cept I just put it there, so I know it's sharp. I started using the back bevel to continue to use an old blade that had some pitting on the back that I was too lazy to try and polish out.
Sure, Mr C and Mr W will both look askance at my half-a$$ed ways, but if I don't look up, I can't see them from my shop.
Ray
>french curved scraper . . . curve of the scraper can be easily calculated by anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of trig, and calculus, and the computer skills that got apollo to the moon<
Ha, ha, ha, aaahhhh, Ha, ha, ha, ha
See that is why it takes a whole world to do big things. It took a Brit, Arthur Conan Doyle , to imagine and write the story about people traveling to the moon and it took American ingenuity to get us there.
Can you imagine if the Brits had done it there would be Morris Garages (MG) and Lucas electrics (the systems that made british car reliability famous ) painted on the side of the rocket.
Before anybody goes off on me I own an MG and truly love it. His full name is Maxwell (has a silver hammer ) Hillary Sigerson so don't get your hackles up.
Now we are hitching rides with the Russians to get back to the space station, the Brits have surpassed our everyday satellite work and the Chinese are the ones to look to for getter done what next.
Not sure what happened there but things sure have changed.
PS: I couldn't help adding a second Lucas; I just love the old stuff like that.
Half-a$$ed, my foot.
"Sure, Mr C and Mr W will both look askance at my half-a$$ed ways, but if I don't look up, I can't see them from my shop."
I really do quite enjoy watching these sharpening threads nowadays Ray, generally for their pointlessnes (if you'll excuse the weak pun). I've got to the stage where I suppose I tend to take a somewhat detached, perhaps rather jaundiced, and single eyebrow raised interest in their unfolding rather than trying to find anything new in the discussions.
If you think your ways are half-a$$ed, I dread to think what people might make of my slap-dash guddlings at a sharpening stone. Still, I can get a blade to cut when and where it needs to, whether it's a plane blade, or a chisel, or whatever, ha, he. Slainte.
With respect and deference to you and your craft
Slainte,
Sounds like you are getting your a$$, your foot and a big table top made of seriously hard or rowed or tear out prone wood confused. Sure a person can plane some straight grain walnut with about anything one can jamb in a plane body. Try a table full of purple heart with an attitude. The blade will tearout and then be dull and skipping and chattering across the surface in no time. Why do you think I kept looking further into why I wasn't getting the results I needed with all the expense and sharpening crutches.
Yes I can sharpen a pocket knife free hand, and a drill bit too by the way, which will cut my foot and my a$$ but not everything on that list.
There is no comparison when it counts.
These things make a difference or I wouldn't bother.
',: )
roc, I've been known to plane some pretty awkward woods after my seemingly sloppy Joe sharpening. Perhaps I'm not as sloppy with my freehand sharpening efforts as might at first appear. The purpleheart you mention is one of many woods that can be challenging to plane; others include such woods as ribbon striped sapele, radially sawn zebrano, afrormosia, Australian 'walnut', etc.
Have you tried planing cross-grain instead of with the grain? Sometimes this works rather well. There is yet another possible solution, ie, put the planes and scrapers to one side and fire up the sanding gear-- anathema in some circles I know, but sometimes an effective method. Slainte.
>Have you tried planing cross-grain instead of with the grain? <
Always.
People plane WITH the grain ? D'oh !
Now you tell me. Thanks I 'll look into that.
: )
> yet another possible solution, ie, put the planes and scrapers to one side and fire up the sanding gear <
BLASPHEMY ! ! !
I won't even listen to such evil !
La, la , la la, la la, la la, la la, la la
: )
Well Richard,
There's nothing new under the sun, as they say. Still and all, sometimes I can't help but get drawn into the melee from time to time.
If Lataxe, the auld bodger, ever sends an arrow across your bow as you charge down the rugby pitch,( scrum, field or whatever,) tell 'im I said hello.
Hope the wife is doing well.
Ray
I haven't heard a peep from him (metaphorically speaking) for months here or elsewhere on the internet Ray.
The wife is somewhat better, and thanks for asking. She's been in hospital continuously since mid-September last year. Daily visits to see and support her have taken up a big chunk of my time, along with keeping everything else afloat on the outside so to speak. She is just about to be discharged into a rehabilitation centre to continue her treatment and hopefully move towards a full recovery, given time. Her illness has been a major factor for my recent relatively small contribution to woodworking forums. Slainte.
Richard.
I hope your better half continues to improve.
Take care,
Ray
Thanks Ray. Slainte.
Fun read.
I sure enjoyed the piece you wrote "A Lesson in Sharpening, by Richard Jones© 1998"
"I sure enjoyed the piece you
"I sure enjoyed the piece you wrote..."
Composed with tongue somewhat stuck in cheek, as I'm sure you realised. Slainte.
Improvement
I'm glad to hear your wife is improving, Richard, even if more slowly than you and she would like. Tell her that she has "fans" around the world rooting for her.
sludge @ slurry
Jbour:
I just realized that you "accumulate the sludge during sharpening" and the following is what roc had to say about that in my original thread.
by roc in reply to swenson [original] on Thu, 10/14/2010 - 22:11
I get the frosted look when I "build up a slurry" on the stone. If I keep the stone wet and clear of significant slurry then the finish is brighter; mirror rather than just smoother.
Every time you read something about using waterstones, they state that the slurry/sludge is what is actually doing the job.
Flatten and lap.
No, I understood you to mean lap. It is a good thing to get the milling marks off the back because they intersect with the edge. Some of us use the terms lap and flatten interchangeably and we really shouldn't. It's gotta be a very old and beat up iron or a cheap one to really require much flattening. But l000 grit is enough if you use the ruler trick when you go to the 8000 for final honing. With the ruler trick the back of the iron is raised up a teeny tiny bit to put a very narrow back bevel on the back of the iron edge, and just a few strokes on the 8000 is all it takes. You just don't have to hone the entire back unless you need it for a shaving mirror. The slurry that roc was talking about in the other thread was more about Nagura stone slurry that some advocate using for sharpening and that he says is better relegated to cleaning the metal out of the pores of waterstones. Since Nagura slurry is even finer than 8000 grit I thought that excess slurry might be keeping the honing from becoming mirror-like. If you can shave hair off your arm and cut 1 thou thick shavings you shouldn't worry about mirrors IMHO... but I get your concern and or interest...I've been there, and it wasn't too long ago either.
Mirror finish.
I feel we get too focused on a mirror finish. If one truly wants a mirror shine then get some automobile chrome polish and a small piece of 0000 steel wool and polish behind the small bevel on the blade edge.
Different stokes for different folks!
I admit I get way too carried away
So what, I like it.
If nothing else the mirror will highlight any deep scratches left in the blade faces. A sign that a grit or two was skipped or the cycle on that grit was too brief. These scratches will leave lines, albeit very tiny lines in the finished face.
Most here are going to sand paper the Ps out of the final face so it doesn't matter does it ?
I have been striving for the Krenov pie in the sky that the final finished surface is created with the plane blade. Then the finish, if any, goes on. He says not practical for all woods.
As far as why I went there with the thread that Swenson mentioned. He asked the question about why his blades appeared the way they did. I answered.
Thanks for enlightening us on "The Real" reason.
Got "my" solution
I finally solved my problem.
Strangely enough, I have to skip a grit.
I used to go from 600 sand paper to 1000 waterstone and then 4000 waterstone.
The back looked quite good after the 600 but started to get "muddy" on the 1000, and I could not improve the thing at 4000 and 8000.
I found out that if I skip the 1000 and go straight from 600 to 4000, I can achieve something close to the desired result.
Now, what can be the problem with the 1000 waterstone?
I might as well hog the heck out of this thread.
why break my habits now. Besides sharpening is one of my main ways I can contribute. (since mostly I just type here and don't actually make stuff out of wood ).
: )
the 1000 stone and the 600 paper are basically the same abrasive grit size but I think the 600 is breaking down and begining to "color" the blade then you go to the stone and it just cuts and doesn't color so you are actually back tracking some there.
I go from a 700 stone to 1000 then 2000 then 4000 etc.
I am not saying you can't cut wood going from 600 to 4000 just that there will be scratches in the mirror.
I got this from the Veritas spoke shave instruction manual (page most of the way to the bottom looking for "honing". But I just coppied the info bellow in this post
http://www.veritastools.com/Content/Assets/ProductInfo/EN/05P3303AI.pdf
But have seen this info in other sources
6 ¹ Abrasive grading is often misunderstood. Many people assume water stones and sandpaper
are graded on the same scale. In fact, abrasives sold in the USA and Canada are mostly
graded on the CAMI (Coated Abrasives Manufacturers Institute) system, whereas water stone
grades follow the JIS (Japanese Industrial Standards) grading system. These two grades have
similar values in the coarse range (240 JIS ≅ 220 CAMI) but diverge widely in the fi ne range.
Consequently, a 1000x water stone is not equivalent to 1000x sandpaper, but rather to 600x.
A further source of confusion is the micron grading system used for newer abrasive products.
Unlike all other methods of abrasive grading, micron grades (µ) are expressed as smaller
numbers as the abrasive grade gets fi ner; consequently, 9µ ≅ 1200x CAMI ≅ 2000x JIS.
Try it for your self and see what the dif is
> Every time you read something about using waterstones, they state that the slurry/sludge is what is actually doing the job.<
Read but Don't believe everything you read/hear. Unless I said/wrote it then you can.
: )
No . . . really. Try the slurry then try a stone freshly flattened and or cleaned with the nagura but then rinsed with water. When the stone gets dry or black clean it. The stone with out the muck will cut faster and polish better every time.
I think the muck thing may have gotten some positive results on a stone that is less than flat or a blade that is less than flat because then the actual microscopic portion of the blade that makes up the cutting edge was not touching the stone and the muck was.
Hard to explain.
Also keep in mind the Japanese (the ones that started all this slurry talk ) use blades that are the hardest in the world 64 to 66 for the good stuff and they don't hollow grind the bevel or use secondary bevels. For what that fact is worth. Worth pondering. If you ever have tried to change the bevel angle on one of those suckers you will know what I mean. Slow going. The slurry may be a desperate attempt to get to the edge with an ultra micro bevel.
Slurry or not
An #8000 stone should require only a few strokes (the bulk of the work should be done before). This makes it rather easy (= little time) to try it both ways; slurry or not). Compare the results and stick to the method that gives you better edge.
Best wishes,
Metod
My ears are burning Slow down, read, visualize on a micro level
>ruler trick hit-or-miss and unpredictable<
Totally agree with Larry. I detest the ruler. It is sloppy meaning it comes loose from the stone and slides messing up the angle. Because the blade is not at a fixed angle to the ruler it rounds the face being abraded similar to stropping. It wears grooves in my stones.
It's crap.
I have used it to do as I say bellow if I have a new tool and need to get it going just until I can do a proper job but I have given up on using it as a regular practice. On a low angle bevel up it lessens the clearance even more. Not a good thing
David Charlesworth, the person who came up with it, even said so. He just does it in his classes to get his newbies' blades up to speed , for those that brought their own untried tools to class, without having to waste enormous amounts of precious class time sharpening (flattening) junk blades.
Of coarse he sold some books with the technique. I bought the books. I enjoy him and his writing.
But the ruler trick . . . nope nope.
Here is where I'm coming from. When I decided to stop fooling around with different sharpening methods and stick with waterstones, I felt that the advice I got at a Lie Nielsen tool event looked interesting and right. That is where I first heard about ruler tricks. I trusted LN to give me the straight scoop because I think he is so good at what he does. The method was reinforced by a Charlesworth DVD. When the FWW article by Deneb Puchalski came out with the same system I felt that my choice was validated. I talked to Deneb at another LN event where he was demonstrating. The set up they all were using, reference stop board, honing guide, ruler trick etc were giving me sharper tools than ever before and I felt I had found the "one true way". Now I see that they were all kind of connected, LN - Deneb P. - Charlesworth, and some of you here have started to put doubts in my head. Also I just re-read one of my comments and I realized that I go off and on the stone only when flattening, not with the ruler as I stated. So I guess my problem is that I was too overwhelmed by experts and results to think thru modifications to the overall system. I'm just in this for the fun of it and after years of dull tools I thrill to the sight and sound of transparent shavings rolling out of a infill style plane I made myself out of brass. Perhaps I have gone as far as I need to go with sharpening, but I am always open to new ideas. Thanks to all who try to set me straight.
The "experts" you mention are great people but . . .
Here is an off the wall left field example of "experts" being off the mark. One has got to test even what they say.
It is a given in the bicycle mechanics world that one ABSOLUTELY MUST grease the post that the seat bolts to on a bicycle where that post inserts into the frame on a steel bicycle frame especially if the post is aluminum and the frame is steel. And every few years that post should be remove and cleaned off and regreased.
What happens if this isn't done has been a regular guest since I got very seriously involved with all things mechanical and other wise having to do with bicycles. I can't tell you how many seized aluminum seat posts I have had to extract at great time expense in the last forty years. Picture hacksaw blades cutting slots inside the post to be removed until it can be literally broken out in pieces, mill the post thinner then fold it up like a thin aluminum can etc.
Alot alot alot. Tons of hours doing this silly thing just because some body didn't smear a little grease where it MUST BE.
Then along comes the aluminum frame bicycle. Many/most have an aluminum seat post in them. For one reason and another several bikes in a hundred will have a chronic problem where the seat post slips down and can not be made to stay put without extreme measures. Picture rolling gnurles on the surface of the post to texture it. Yep.
Now . . .
lately, last few years, I have taken to cleaning ALL the grease off these posts and putting them back in and in most cases this solves the problem. No more slippy downy.
Anyone I talk to that is an "expert" in the bicycle industry will swear that the aluminum post will seize in the aluminum frame and so the post must be greased.
I called one of the foremost aluminum frame manufacturers in the world and asked their tech answer guy and he said "Always grease the alu to alu surfaces.
In forty years I have NEVER once seen one seized alu to alu post. I am around bicycles of all persuasions on a daily basis.
So
So much for experts always having the CORRECT answer. Humans get stuck in these damned grooves and can't seem to jump out when it is time. When the song ends or changes to a new song.
Around and around asleep.
So
Test everything the "experts" say ! ! !
Test everything the "experts" say ! ! !
Yeah, but roc, the best experts in the world in the field of nautical engineering, the very best, all those guys said the Titanic was unsinkable... and they were right, weren't they?
My real question is, if the ruler trick was invented by Charlesworth to jump start new students, how come LN and Deneb and a bunch of others got on board and tout it as "the way" to do it? Stuck in the groove? But they started the groove.
Interesting story about the bike seats. My first thought was, did anyone weigh the alu/alu guys that were sinking vs. the guys that were not?
Mirror finish not necessarily the goal
The merits of the ruler trick aside, to address the mirror/dull issue, a mirror finish is not necessary for a sharp edge. A flat surface is the main goal. A mirror surface is not necessarily flat. Think of a funhouse mirror, or the reflector in a flashlight.
Whether a flat surface is reflective depends on a number of factors besides flatness, the main one being the regularity of the scratch pattern left by your sharpening media of choice. There are some sharpening media that will leave a reflective flat surface, and others that will leave a flat surface with more of a matte appearance. Either way can result in a very sharp tool.
Natural Japanese waterstones have a reputation for resulting in ridiculously sharp edges, as evidenced by the planing contests held in Japan. Many times these waterstones will leave a hazy finish to the tool, and for many Japanese woodworkers, this is a desirable quality in the tool.
I have some more information on this in a post on my blog:
http://giantcypress.net/post/435998429/hazy-mirror-on-the-wall-whos-the-sharpest-tool-of
Makes a lot of sense
Thanks a lot. The discussion on your blog makes a lot of sense and gives a perspective that had not been brought forth before.
The microscope images in the referenced page are particularly convincing.
As far as I am concerned, you have the definitive answer to my problem that was probably not really a problem from the start.
you want science and Microscope photos this is the best
In ten plus years of searching out what is happening when sharpening and the best methods this is the crème de la crème
https://www.finewoodworking.com/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesPDF.aspx?id=2793
repeatable results, confirmed by microscope and the best methods confirmed by microscope and CUTTING WOOD ! ! ! !
Three different difficulty levels of wood planing. She isn't playing around.
As far as the natural stone verses the manmade extra extra fine stones 8000 and 15000 I suspected the natural stone had larger particles in it that could cause problems, how could it not, and that the synthetic has surpassed the best of the natural stones.
Polish verses the matt finish:
Any jewelers or metal experts want to address the terms "cut" and "color" ?
I believe that is what we are talking about here to some degree. An abrasive that cuts does what it sounds like the color comes in when the abrasive tends to burnish the surface and smooth the scratches out after doing the initial cutting. Wet/dry black paper tends to color because the particles break off and round over and tends to color when the paper gets worn out as opposed to the blue paper/cloth which tends to break but stay sharp. I could bandy the names of the abrasive components but for all concerned it is easier to just mention how the sandpaper looks.
Microscope Photos
Yes, those photos tell some difference. My question is: How much of the 'story? The article would be more informative if included/compared the photos after a few swipes/cuts with each of the blades. Of course if one strops after each swipe, then the diamond paste has a functional advantage. If the sharpness equalizes quickly (few swipes), the advantage is kinda superficial.
I do not remember whether there were any photos of the planed surfaces and what was the difference in their quality.
Best wishes,
Metod
In the article, the natural Japanese waterstone was prepped with a Nagura. This is a traditional method, and helps the waterstone work better by raising a slurry, but one issue is that particles from the Nagura stone can be transferred to the natural Japanese waterstone, which can cause the issue with larger particles that you mentioned. I have one natural Japanese waterstone that gets a fair amount of use, and I just use a 400 grit diamond plate on it. That simultaneously flattens the waterstone and raises a slurry without this issue.
One other thing to consider is that larger particles that may be present in a natural waterstone don't stay large as you sharpen. They fracture and break down in size, so the large particle issue is usually temporary, and with practice and patience can be worked around. From this standpoint, the synthetics are at a disadvantage, since should a larger grit particle in a ceramic waterstone pop out, it's going to stay there until it's washed off the surface of the stone.
Lets follow some of those paths shall we . .
Wilburpan,
I am sure you are a nice person and I am not attacking you or being a troll dude or anything but I would like to follow some of those points you bring up for the sake of edification.
First I will say it is entirely possible that synthetic stones can have larger contaminates in them. I have a 10,000 Ice Bear that seems to scratch up my blades where the 8000 Norton leaves a more consistent and better mirror. Yes I am still stuck on that mirror thing. Around and around . . . I like this groove daddy'Os.
Sorry . . . where was I ? . . . oh yah
So I grab the Norton and the "finer" Ice Bear sits on the shelf nearly mint condition.
Nowwww lets talk about them Japanese stones and the particles in 'em.
Are we assuming they will fracture and break down more so than the ceramic? Maybe they just stay embedded in the rest of the stone and are worn down/sheared off (quickly or eventually?) but does that mean they cut a narrower swath ? As narrow as the finer particles ?
Are we assuming The ceramic can not act the same as the natural stone ? I know you first said in the stone and then popped out onto the stone but that all is another fish to fry. The ceramic can not act the same as the natural stone ? If so why/how ?
We are thinking the slurry is still a good thing to have while sharpening. I am not saying the article I posted is without a speck of misinformation.
EDIT: she is just presenting various established systems of sharpening and looking at the results.
WHY are we thinking slurry is desirable. What function does it fill ? (other than cleaning the stone before sharpening begins)(so why not wash it off before beginning to sharpen ? )
I agree; using the nagura on more than one stone is worrying. I rinse mine.
The reason one would not want to flatten every time to clean the stone is that it wears out the stone rapidly because one is removing a layer of the stone. The nagura seems to wear down first and get in the "pores" of the stone and snag the metal and pull it out so it can be washed away.
Yes you have raised a slurry with the diamond plate and it is relatively uncontaminated slurry . . . but again . . . why is this helpful to sharpening ?
In my experiments it isn't helpful but now the slurry fans have the floor . . .
tell me why baby why you wana make me cry baby cry ?
Ok I may have had too much chocolate here, or not enough, but . . . any way . . . slurry fans why do you love your slurry ?
love your slurry
The slurry with the fringe on top, that is.. OKLAHOMA! is back on Broadway, and not a moment too soon.
Jud
darn
You beat me to it. ;-)
Hi roc,
No worries -- I like thinking about these things.
Now, I'm not claiming that I'm the world's expert on sharpening by any means -- I'm mainly reporting on my experience using several different types of waterstones, both manmade and natural Japanese waterstones. And looking back, I oversimplified some things in trying to explain where I'm coming from.
Not all natural Japanese waterstones need a nagura, or a slurry to work well. Natural Japanese waterstones can range from being quite soft, like one I bought from Lee Valley back when they had some, to very hard, almost like honing on a granite plate. Using a nagura or a diamond plate on a softer stone won't provide any advantage, as enough sharpening particles will be released so that the abrasion of the tool will proceed quickly. For a very hard stone, it takes some time to raise a slurry so that enough sharpening particles can be freed to allow the abrasion to take place. This is where a nagura or diamond plate is useful – you can get past that first waiting period more quickly. The first time I used a diamond plate on a very hard waterstone, the difference in sharpening speed was impressive. But again, this may not be a huge advantage for every waterstone.
The natural Japanese waterstone that I use the most is in the middle – soft enough so that sharpening proceeds quickly, but hard enough so that it maintains flatness well in use.
I agree that we can expect different quality control from different manufacturers, and even the idea of grit size seems to vary a bit depending on who's making a waterstone, so the idea that you are seeing a more coarse scratch pattern from a 10000 grit waterstone from one manufacturer compared to an 8000 grit waterstone from someone else isn't surprising to me.
The main reason I brought up the issue of the nagura is that my experience is that the natural Japanese waterstone that I use the most gives me better results than the Shapton Pro 8000 grit waterstone that I have, which is opposite of Aimé Fraser's experience. My guess is that the use of the nagura is what contributed to the "few stripes raised slightly on tiger maple" that she mentions.
I do think that compacted sedimentary particles in natural Japanese waterstones are more friable than the ceramic particles used in manmade waterstones. Maybe some of the other scenarios you are proposing are true, but in the absence of direct observation I think that this is the most likely explanation. In any case, it's clear to me that using a natural Japanese waterstone results in a finer scratch pattern on my tool than the 8000 grit Shapton Pro that I have.
Not that any of this matters in our shops. If the Norton 8000 grit is what works for you and Ms. Fraser, that's completely fine. Maybe I would be fine with using the Shapton Pro 8000 alone. And I don't pretend to believe that anything that I've made so far would compare to anything that you or Ms. Fraser have done. But I still like pondering these things.
So I guess my answer to the question, "Why do slurry fans like slurry?" is that I like it in those situations where it helps.
Take care,
Wilbur
All,
How much more quiet woodworking fora would be, if everyone did as they ought, and used OILSTONES.
No slurry angst, no prehoning flattening sessions, no total immersion/ wet on top ambivalance. Are you a Baptist/ Nagura? or a Methodist/ Shapton? Mirror finish? Can you see the angels' reflections as they dance on the edge of the blade?
Back in the day, men were men and sharpened their hollow-ground bevels freehand with oilstones- fine India then Arkansas- then went back to work, woodworkers working wood not slopping slurry, or agonising over their reflected glory. Back in the day a back bevel was a means to make a common-pitch plane perform like a York -pitch, not a "trick" (watch me pull a ruler outta my hat- TA-DA!)
To be fair there were the same sort of arguments- do you use motor oil cut with mineral spirits, or with kerosene, or just 3-in-1oil out of the can?? I heard an old-timer say that neatsfoot oil is better than mineral oil, but I use Marvel Mystery Oil myself. It has its own,,,je ne sais quoi.
Don't get me wrong, there is a place for slurry. I put 9 1/4 yardsof it under the slab that is now my front porch. They also call it "flowable fill".
Ray
Ha ! Back in the day...
Ray
Back in the day when I was young, the plane Irons were made out of stone. I see your brother got his new house on the mountain under roof. Nice.
What the heck are you doing up at 4 in the morning ?
Swenson,
I don't think I am a good influence on you.
I woke up on the couch and answered a few replys.
This is nuts. I am going to bed.
: )
Roc,
This sharpening thread is really fun. Lotsa action. Of course, everyone missed the boat. Everything in this thread is old hat. The only way to go in sharpening is "Side Sharpening". WHether you use oil or waterstones is irrelevant. The important thing is that you move the iron so that the edge travels along its long axis, NOT ITS SHORT ONE. If you haven't tried this, you should. I used to have a bit of trouble using the old method in that I couldn't keep my bevel flat. I thought I was holding my iron at the same angle all the time, but I wasn't .
HOWEVER, if you SIDE SHARPEN, and move the iron along its long axis, it is a piece of cake to keep it at the same angle.
If you wan't a jig, Shapton sells one for side sharpening. Just go to the Shapton website.
POINT #2 - The reason to go to a 30,000 grit waterstone is not to make the edge sharper, even though it does. The real point is that the edge lasts longer. Once you have used a 30k stone, you just can't go back. It like living in the Playboy mansion. Once you have lived there, you can't go back to normal life.
POINT #3 - If you want to live in the stone age, as Ray does, and use oilstones, Don't use mineral oil or kerosene. The ONLY oil to use is Marvel Mystery Oil. I sharpen my carving gouges on oilstones, and I use a white translucent stone, the kind that you covet. I highly recommend it. You will find that the Marvel Mystery Oil is finer than mineral oil, which is too thick for a proper meeting of the edge and the stone. Somehow, I find the use of kerosene to be distasteful. BUT MMO, that is beautiful stuff. It was a high tech product decades ago. Now it is just plain GOOD. Go to their website for more info, and for some fun.
http://www.marvelmysteryoil.com/index.php
I hope these three hints help the folks in this thread. Over in The Burl, more advanced information is available, and everyone is welcome to stop over there. I stop over here. I enjoy the peace and quiet here, and I enjoy reminiscing about the old ideas of sharpening that I have seen here. It really is fun - like watching old movies such as the Maltese Falcon with Cary Grant and Faye Dunaway.
Have fun.
Mel
PS - just to keep you on your toes, I have inserted an error in the above post. :-) Everything else is absolute, incontrovertable undeniable fact. ((Well, almost.))
Hey Mel,
Maltese Falcon with Cary Grant and Faye Dunaway
That ought to be, Gidget Goes to the Malt Shoppe in her Falcon, with Sally Field and Troy Donahue.
Can't fool me,
Ray
Ray,
I said that I put an error into my message. You found it.
Actually, many of the other things in my message were opinions, not facts, and some were put it just for fun. I was so excited to see an active thread here in Knots. And it is on SHARPENING. It doesn't get better than that. I remember years ago, you and I talking about sharpening on broken pieces of sidewalk.
By the way, I was kidding about the 30K waterstone. If you don't have the money to buy one, you can just put some talcum powder on wax paper and rub your blade on it. The effect is about the same.
Mel
Ray
There was a picture in the Christmas letter I think. Elk antler tips just pop those flakes off the edge. Moose too big. Wasn't Humphry Bogart and Peter Lorie in Maltese Falcon? I re-edited that flick for television at MetroMedia Ch-5 in 1965. Was the last time I saw it and I got paid to watch. If I remember it was in B&W on 16mm with opt. trk. and we were using blooping tape to clean up the audio edits. My how things have changed... like the subject of this thread, for example.
swen,
Yup, Bogey and Peter Lorrie. Maltese Falcon. Different from Gidget, a chocolate malted, and her Ford Falcon. Surf's up Daddy-O!
Metro media 5. Was cowboy Pick Temple (and his pony) still on in '65, with Crusader Rabbit? Also Cap'n Tugg, w/ Mr Flanagan in the engine room, and Popeye on the poopdeck? (heehee he said "poop")
Thread's totally hijacked now, ya think?
Ray
Ray
No to Pick Temple. Capt. Tug was there and Gormley. After Capt. Tug retired and sailed around the world and came back for a visit he told the crew about sitting at an outdoor cafe on the other side of the world somewhere, Morocco or Tangiers or something like that. Two American servicemen were walking up the street, passed him, and did a huge double take. "Holy s--t" one of them yelled, "that was Captain Tug!" They must have been from the DC area. They were so surprised and came back to the table to talk and get an autograph. Willard Scott didn't work at Ch5 but he taped commercials there. He was Ronald McDonald and he would come into the edit rooms to borrow white film editor's gloves when he forgot his Ronald McD. costume gloves.
Hijacked, ya sure.
Svenska poika.
"PS - just to keep you on
"PS - just to keep you on your toes, I have inserted an error in the above post."
Maltese Falcon aside, my take is that the error is the phrase, "The only way to go in sharpening is...." There are too many people who get very sharp edges with a multitude of different sharpening regimens for there to be only one way to go.
Sorry - duplicate post.
Duplicate post.
swen,
So you are on the mailing list too! Ya, haven't seen the place yet, but been hearing lotsa stories about the construction adventure.
So are you in the moose, or elk, antler camp when it comes to pressure flaking to restore a stone edge? Let's keep this discussion on topic. ;-)
Best wishes for 2011,
Ray
A different world . . . very hard and no slurry . . . no nagura
Nothin gets much harder than an Arkansas oil stone. They don't need slurry or a nagura.
Kerosene, mineral spirits, motor oil ?
Poooweee
stones so hard they arn't friable . . . hardly at all . . . a different world.
Some day I will order one of those beautiful translucent oil stones just because I think they are classic and look cool; but I bet I don't use it much.
A little oil stone help if you will
duplicate reply please ignore or erase
A little oil stone help if you will
Ray,
>if everyone did as they ought, and used OILSTONES.<
I got some warm air up my kilt and started to check out the translucent oil stones . . .
Curiously the 3/4'" thick Norton goes for $160 and the one 1/4" thinner but one inch wider goes for $80.
Larry Williams says he uses water stones in that ad for the oil stones by the way.
So
Any reason I shouldn't get the wider thinner Norton? They don't wear much/don't need flattening often.
Probably ought to go for the package of medium India with the TransHardArk for $13 more, right?
I AM serious here.
PS: if you read that other nonsense I wrote in this post and delected never mind I got out a tape measure and measured my Norton water stones.
PPS: Here's a bigun. Two inches longer. Hmmmm
http://www.amazon.com/Arkansas-Sharpening-Stone-Translucent-10/dp/B003J3V0ZY/ref=pd_sim_sbs_hi_2
Roc,
I've used water stones and did for a couple years. I don't use them anymore because I found I was spending more time keeping them flat than sharpening. With the number of freshly heat treated irons I sharpen these days I just don't have time to deal with water stones, their mess or their limitations. Well maintained oil stones cut just as quickly, stay flatter a lot longer, and don't require the mess or paraphernalia. BTW, I dress my oil stones frequently and leave the slurry on them.
roc,
I don't think y'all will wear out a 1/2" thick Arkansas stone in your lifetime. The 3/4" thick one will be only slightly less likely to shatter when (not if) you drop it on the floor.
The stones I use are: a pretty big (maybe 2 1/2" x8"x 1" two sided (fine and med) norton India stone. I use the fine side as my "coarse" stone, honing with it after I hollow-grind on a white wheel, and when I need to re sharpen. The last time I used the med side was touching up an axe.
I use two Arkansas stones; a "soft" (hah! snort) white stone about 1 1/2x 4 1/2 x 1/2 that I follow the India stone with, and a slightly larger hard black stone that is maybe 2x 5 x 1 that I use after the soft white when I am feeling real froggy; that is to say if I am on a piece of crotch walnut or curly maple, and want to make real thin shavings and a lot of 'em.
Also in my collection of whet rocks is a big 2 1/2 x 8 x 3/4' (aprox) surgical black arkansas stone that was a gift, and that I don't use. I just can't get that involved in sharpening as a pastime to justify using it, which is to say that I couldn't see an improvement in my edges when I tried it out a couple times. I don't have a microscope and so must rely on the surface quality of wood being worked and the longevity of a usable edge to guide me.
Larry W, or any of y'all want to use a waterstone, fine by me, no hard feelings. You can have 'em.
Don't know that you need a big stone. I only have about a 2" long sharpening stroke. Much longer than that, and I don't have control over the angle I'm trying to maintain/ can't balance the bevel on that hollow grind. Your stroke length/ honing guide mileage may vary, past performance no indicator of future edge quality etc, etc.
Stone flatness is not something that I lie awake at night worrying about, nor is it something that I even look at with any regularity. That India stone gets way outta whack I'll buy a new one. Meanwhile, I just use the whole surface of the stone,(pick a different area each time,) and generally keep wearing it down all over.
That makes me a hack, ok. Old dog, new tricks kinda thing.
Ray
Ray
Ray: That's what I needed to know. Thanks !
> about a 2" long sharpening stroke. Much longer than that, and I don't have control over the angle I'm trying to maintain<
That must be part of the reason I have a devil of a time when free handing it . I try to run the length of the 8" stone and I get all crampy finger trying to keep it right.. Short strokes is the way to do it free hand.
Arks
I went with the 8x3x1/2 hard Ark Norton for $80 from TFWW, and the so-called soft in the same size for $30. I couldn't see the extra 2" in length being worth another Benjamin.
The problem I see with creating a Renaissance of sorts with oil stones is that we'll need to create a New Myth about using some exotic oil with them. Granola oil, perhaps?
Oh yah
>difference in their quality< Was ease of planing, subjective, and degree of tearout or lack of in the more highly rated systems, in tiger maple. Read it (again).
Time
Can you tell me, guys, where you find the time to cut and plane wood with all the time you spend arguing here?
Bourg,
You asked where everyone finds the time to spend arguing.
I haven't seen any arguing at all. Just folks having fun after they emerge from the shop and need to unwind by having some fun and blowing some smoke. Heck, I don't even get back here very often. I thoughts Knots was dead, but it still gets a few posts each week. I just stopped back for a visit and saw a bunch of folks having fun with woodworking's most popular passtime- talking trash about sharpening.
Roc and I are old friends and we swap a lot of fun. Some of it is even informational, but the prime purpose is having fun. Heck if I wanted to argue, I'd just go talk to my wife. :-) ((Just kidding.))
Have fun. Get back to the shop. What are you doing reading all of this fun stuff.
Mel
Ooops. Damn English. Wrong choice of word there. I did mean "having fun".
That happens too often when a frenchy as me tries to mix with those guys from the south.
Up here around Montreal, having a good discussion with different if not contradictory ideas is called "argumenter". It is considered fun by most people, and translates to "argue".
Now, looking to my English-French dictionary (I still use those old things called dictionaries instead of Google, although in a digital form), I see that you probably understood my use of arguing for its second meaning, "disputer", something used a lot by lawyers and a few husband and wife.
So what I meant is that you guys where "argumenting", not "disputing". Translated in English, that would be you guys where "arguing", not "arguing".
This would be a little like "waterstone" or "oilstone", which also be said "stone" or "stone".
Mon ami,
Laissez les bon temps roullez,
Je ne parle pas bien le français. Je suis italienne, au moins je suis d'origine italienne.J'ai visité votre partie du monde il ya quelques années. Belle. La femme de mon filsest canadienne. Il ya de nombreuses raisons de visiter le Canada. Je dois aller à LeeValley et acheter des outils.
à plus tard,
Mel
Plueeesseeee.....
"Over in The Burl, more advanced information is available"
There is not a single thread on sharpening at the burl, where the hell is the more "advanced" information? This is getting really tiresome, can't you give it a rest?
ps. Charlesworth is the first one to point out that he developed the rule trick to get his students going quickly and not spend hours sharpening, but then he does it on bevel down blades. Side sharpening has been around for quite a while but requires a guide, regular sharpening can be done without a guide given enough practice. So, sorry but your "new" information is quite old as well.
I can relate
Swenson,
>the snoring drives your wife to beat you about the head and shoulders with a heavy alarm clock 'till you quit breathing. <
why do you think I am always waking up on the couch. Here are a few guesses:
My own snoring woke me up.
I got chased out of the bed room but was too out of it to remember
Queenmasteroftheuniverseandbabybunnytrainer carried me out to the couch; an impressive feat of strength but for her it was get some sleep or die.
Fill in the blank _________
Are you going to write up an article for FWW on a shop built CPAP?
Can we include a power take off so we really can saw logs with it ?
roc
CPAP does work and does save lives as apnia can cause hearts to attack you. But I wonder sometimes if all that air pressure is driving sawdust deeper into my lungs. If you hold your breath while snoring you may have apnia. A Dr. Rx for a sleep center check up will tell them how much pressure you need to stop and the CPAP is set to your needed pressure.
If in doubt turn it up
>wonder if all that air pressure is driving sawdust deeper into my lungs<
Crank up the pressure and blow that saw dust out'a there then give it a good coat of Boeshield T-9. That's my advice.
LW: That's what I gathered but figured I would fun yah a little.
: )
Why .
I should have capitalized "why" and left the rest lower case. I knew There was a reason that I wasn't using the ruler. More than I don't like the ruler coming loose just about the time I am getting down to a few good swipes or that it rounds the facet I want to make flat and accurate, or that it makes my nice flat 8000 look like a farmer's field already to plant.
Then it all came back to me like a message from God burnt across the sky , AGAIN , because I was too stupid to remember the first time.
Sorry; lower case except the WHY.
Oh, oh almost forgot. Since you said somebody explain not just Larry the dubbing is like if you got your edge nearly sharp and then took it to a strop that was flexible and the microscopic area at the edge rounds down to the "sharp" edge. Like a bullnose.
I may not be explaining it well. I suppose its extreme is a blade dulled from use. The wood rounds and blunts, dubs , the the very edge. As opposed to two FLAT surfaces coming together to make a sharp, and more useful plane blade's cutting edge.
Thanks for the explanation.
As far as the ruler trick, the first time I found out about it I thought that having a ruler underneath the blade was just adding another piece to make things more complicated. I am sure it works for some, since I am happy with the results I am getting I follow two principles, KISS and if it aint broke don't fix it... :-)
Duplicate entry moderator please remove .
The connection cut out on me and said could not complete my post. When I came back it had been stuck down head, twice, and not up with the rest of that part of the thread.
The Burl has been acting up as well.
OK TO DELETE THIS ONE
Two sides
That is something I do but I don't recall talking about here. I have my stones so I can tell one side from the other, manufacturer's lettering right side up for the back flattening side or an arrow put on edge of stone with magic marker. I use the other side for sharpening bevels on. One reason I spend the extra money for a one grit stone, rather than two grits back to back, and have passed on the Shapton on glass and bought the thicker "Pro" stones. Taking the back of the blade up and down the stone full length tends to help keep that side of the stone flat. I really like David Charlesworth and respect his vast experience as compared to my seriously pitiful output. That said I do like metal work and looked in on this subject of sharpening a time or two.
I have to agree with all of this, especially Ray's bit about India stones. The big ones from Norton (8x3) cost fifteen bucks. Therefore I am not worried about keeping these flat though they have stubbornly hung on to that attribute perhaps longer than one has a right to expect. If they go seriously out of flat, I think I'll just do me-self a favor and buy a new one. The only thing, frankly, that will make a hard Ark seriously go out of flat is carving gouge honing and in this case you WANT the ruts and that's what the other side of the stone is for - carving gouges and such. One must remember these things have two sides - never glue or plaster them in (as some old blokes recommend), you need the other side for gouges or if not used for gouges simply for even wear - both sides toward the middle if you will.
Roc's point about the ruler trick flattening an otherwise desirable slightly crowned iron is well taken. I think he's right and it's something I've never thought about, though I admit to having a visceral reaction against what appears to me to be an unrepeatable and mostly useless little dodge like the ruler trick. I think David Charlesworth gets sharp edges in spite of the ruler trick not because of the ruler trick, though one can't help but admire his dogged insistence that the whole exercise is worthwhile. At this point I wonder if David defends the technique not because it is terribly efficacious as much as he does because he put it out there to begin with. I can think about the technique abstractly enough to know it is not a revelation except perhaps in the very narrow circumstance of having to deal with a warped chisel or cutter that defies flattening. That's what the garbage can is made for in my book. Time's too short and all that rot.
Otherwise, the RT really has no 'warranty of scripture' if you will in any of the old woodworking manuals I happen to like and have learned from - Charles Hayward and Bernard Jones compilations (unless I've somehow missed it). Not that these guys are the be all and end all, just that they knew good shop practices when they saw them.
Actually, it is a French that wrote about the first voyage to the moon, Jules Vernes, "De la terre à la lune" (From the earth to the moon), published in 1865, while Conan Doyle was only 6 years old. Verne is also credited as the inspiration for the first film on the subject, done by Georges Melies somewhere at the beginning of the century.
And as far as I know, the French do have a space program while the Brits don't. The Brits simply hire the French to launch their satellites.
Plane Blade-Flattening the backside
This has been a wonderful thread on sharpening plane blades. You are to be commended for keeping it going for over 30 days. The end result is many fine woodworkers expressing their views on sharpening plane blades and no one seems upset or angry. Reminds me of some old farmers 70 years ago in the small town barber shop discussing which make of tractor could pull a three bottom plow faster. They were not engineers but they knew a lot about farming from experience and that was the sum of their education. Couple that with common sense, strong ethics and pride in the land they made history on the Kansas plains.
Rex Featherston
Hey You Are Right
Sorry. I was thinking of The First Men in the Moon by H. G. Wells 1901 so I am all screwed up.
Glad somebody is paying attention. It is a fun movie, by the way, even if one is not all that much into science fiction
http://movies.netflix.com/WiMovie/First-Men-in-the-Moon/60022474?trkid=438403
You can ignore the UR rating. I don't know what they are thinking; this movie is like a Disney movie.
Aah ! There's a pleasing place on the web !
Great web site ! ! !
Slainte,
You could teach classes in how to set up a web site in addition to all your other skills !
I have a couple of questions and thoughts :
See that palm strop thing does work ( to be kept to a minimum though)
What is the significance of the broken handled screw driver?
How do I get one ? Do you offer such a tool for purchase ?
What kind of wood is in the handle?
Does the handle need to be custom broke according to my height and weight so as to balance properly when in the tumult of sharpening ?
I am guessing but is it part of the "Screw Driver Trick" technique I been reading about ( I haven't been reading about one but I want to appear hip to the other readers [don't let on].)
How do you prepare the screw driver ? Does it need to be sent off to Scotland for a "Master" tool maker to prepare?
Should I have two Screw Drivers then; one at the screwdriver master and one in my use?
Can I have that old plane in the photograph ? It is seriously out of date and I am sure nobody would want it. Can I have it ? Can I ? Can I ?
Hoping to learn more about the Screw Drive method systems approach !
Sincerely,
The screwdriver is a circa mid-1970s Footprint (I think) imported from the so-called 'Land of the Free'. It has a plastic handle, essential for the shattered appearance as plastic develops fragility with time, and breaks easily when dropped on the floor at the appropriate moment-- twenty to twenty five years after manufacture is about right. The screwdriver, wide bladed as you see, has two primary uses:
Undoing the screw to remove the cap iron from the blade.
Prying the lid off the oilstone box. This is a necessity because I sharpen so rarely that the two parts of the wooden box magically sort of glue themselves together between sharpening sessions. You have to remember that I only sharpen my planes on New Year's day as a treat for my planes, whether they need it or not. I guess you can count that as the "Screwdriver Trick" and add it to your armory of techniques to try, ha, ha.
No, you can't have that piece of sh*t Norris which was knocked out in the factory just before the company went belly up. Slainte.
Oh . . . Wow
: )
This is not a conversation where you can ask someone a question and be sure the person heard you. If DC dropped by and explained something, there is no reason to expect him to come back and check whether everyone agrees, or if someone has asked him a follow up question. If he were the OP, that might be a reasonable assumption, but in general it is not. So if you ask a question and someone apparently ignores you, that's just a consequence of the medium. In my mind the unreasonable thing is badmouthing someone who is clearly not there to defend himself.
If you are still wondering about using the ruler trick on a cambered iron, just consider what you are doing. You are honing (with your finest stone) a very short and shallow (0.1 degree) back bevel. If you were honing the ordinary bevel you would only be able to hone the bit on the stone at one time, so you'd simply make sure you honed all of it. The same goes for the back. You simply hone as usual, and make sure that each bit of the back edge gets honed. Turn the iron as you hone so the bit of the edge that's beiong honed stays parallel to the ruler.
If you dub an edge, putting an unknown amount of extra bevel on it, the reason that can be a big problem is that when you next hone you may hold it at a shallower angle and waste time honing the part not right at the edge, or increase the angle too much while making sure to hone the edge. The reason the ruler trick does not do this is that the angle is better controlled. A very slight angle change can be accomodated without many strokes on the stone because the bevel is so very short that not much metal needs to be removed. It's the combination of control and the very small angle that lead to consistently useful results.
But don't do it if you don't want to.
Alan, I fear you are missing a substantial amount!
( : )
Mel
And a Happy New Year to you too. Good to see you back here even if it is for a short visit. Thanks for the input on the ruler trick. Back in my bow hunting days I used to use a hard Arkansas stone on my broadheads. If you were at the Guild meeting two or three months ago you saw the Green Dragon. I am almost finished making one for my grand kids. Awesome design. Lots of fun to make. No more ruler trick for me. I guess you saw my remark about experts and the Titanic.
Take care. See you at next meeting.
roc: I'm up at four in the morning because my CPAP dried out my sinuses and woke me up. Also I spent thirty years working 2pm to midnight and 4am used to be my bedtime.
EDITED TO INCLUDE DRAGON PIX
CPAP
Swenson,
Your
Coalition for the Prevention of Alcohol Problems
Woke you up ? What are THEY doing up at this hour ? Never mind. Sounds like quite a party forming though !
I wouldn't worry about it. They probably just saw all those "drawer handles" (unhuh) laying around and decided to check up on ya' all. Tell 'em I can vouch for ya.
: )
PS: that is as long as you give me directions to the party. Need me to bring any thing ?
Don't start the conga line without me.
CPAP is continuous positive air pressure or something like that. It forces air down your lungs when you sleep and prevents sleep apnia which causes you to snore, It can kill you. The way it kills you is the snoring drives your wife to beat you about the head and shoulders with a heavy alarm clock 'till you quit breathing.
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