What are the best options for finshing an Adirondack chair made of Select Pine or Spurce Pine; water or oil based primer and paint? Can Spar Varnish be used with good results instead of paint?
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I've recently seen some information on the longevity of outdoor finishes and woods preferred for outdoor use. I also have some experience as a long time boat owner. Oil based paint will provide the most durable finish, latex paint will likely be in second. Spar varnish is reasonably durable, however not nearly as long lasting as the paint would be. There are other factors as well, for example, when the varnish starts to go you will need to remove all the finish or at least sand past the "dead" varnish. With paint you can recoat if it is dull as it will not show the layers below like a clear finish does.
Pine is not on the "list" of outdoor woods, so I would make sure that it is painted very well. Also take special precautions where the end grain is in contact with either the ground, your patio, or deck. The end grain in the legs will absorb moisture and wick it up the wood. An epoxy coating on the feet of your chairs will help avoid this. There is a special penetrating epoxy but I have yet to see it in quantities for just a couple of chairs and it is quite pricey in the larger quantities.
I have just completed construction on a pair of Adirondack chairs myself. I chose cypress for it's rot resistance and will paint the chairs with an oil based paint meant for outdoor exposure.
All the chairs I have made I have painted with a solid color stain that you would use on decks & railings. It sinks in an does not peal like paint and requires no other finish over the stain. I have used Olympic & Sherwin Williams with equal success. I have made over 100 chairs from western red cedar or cypress and all my clients have used solid color stains that I recommended or I have stained them and none have had any problems with peeling etc. I have used both water based and oil based and do not find any difference. On pine or spruce I would opt for the oil base stain. Good luck
Do you apply any kind of pre-stain or special coating on the hardware/fasteners of your chairs for outdoor use? My Florida environment (Central, not coastal) is pretty hard on both wood and metal left outdoors year-round.
I used Stainless Steel fasteners including carriage bolts on my Adirondack chairs. Even the screws which I countersunk and plugged are SS. It just doesn't cost that much more and I want them to last, it's taken me years to get around to making them so they need to last, haha.
I've decided that on the end grain for legs, where they contact the ground, I will use the Minwax rot fix that penetrates and solidifies the wood fibers. I think that is a good extra precaution. The epoxy that does the same thing is only available as a quart kit and that is way more than I need, it will be wasted unless I make a dozen more chairs.
I've seen epoxy (not the kit type) used for this purpose also. Simply use tape around the leg (creating a dam) and burnish the tape on well. Then assuming your chair legs are all equally the same length, add the same amount of material to each. Don't have to use much.
It's worked on a picnic table I built at my parents for quite a while now (8years, no damage).
Could do this in addtion to the penetrating wood stiffener for incredible protection.
Cheers,Michael
All the screws for the adirondack chairs and out door tables etc. are stainless steel. I tried deck screws on a pair if chairs for a client that was going to stain his own chairs and a year later I saw some rust on the screw heads. The solid color stain did not prevent rust from forming where the finish on the screws got nicked around the phillips head socket.
Thanks, Guys.
Hey mrbird60,
As a long term sailor, I have learned a few things about stainless steel. If your fastenings are "rusting" after you have applied a finish over them it is because in order for stainless steel to remain "stainless" it is because of the finish you have applied over those fastenings. Stainless steel needs the presence of oxygen in the atmosphere to keep from corroding. It forms a few molecules thick film of oxidized metal to stop further corrosion. If this film is not able to form because of the presence of a covering finish then the metal will continure to "rust" until eventual failure. Don't paint over stainlees steel or install it underwater for the same reasons.
Hope this helps
I never had a problem with the stainless steel screws, it was the coated deck screws that showed rust where the philips head screws got their coating nicked from the screwdriver. The last 50 or so chairs I used stainless with no problems. My own chairs are 12 years old and are in perfect shape with the stainless screws.
Can I piggyback on this thread and ask anyone's opinion of Thompson's Waterseal? I am just completing a cedar garden bench and wonder if the above preservative would be a good way to maintain the natural look of the cedar. There is an old thread about finishing cedar, but it didn't cover Waterseal, (not Waterlox...I know what that is). One thing I am doing is epoxying the bottoms of the four legs.
I've always thought the Thompson's products were pretty much useless. For an outdoor clear finish, you might consider an oil/varnish mix.I got the idea years ago from Sam Maloof, and I have tried a variety of combinations for interior and exterior work. For outside stuff, the mix that has worked well for me is two Minwax products: Helmsman Spar Varnish, Clear Shield (an oil with UV inhibitors. I mix the varnish and oil with paint thinner - 1/3 to each. This conconction has the protective, film qualities of varnish, but you can rub it on. Down the line, you just need to sand and reapply the mix.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Hi,looking through the forum for advice about outdoor furniture finish I found your message interesting.
Could you explain what is advantage of such a cocktail. Before you ask here is why I ask. I made a wooden mail box for myself and my son. Mine is protected from direct rain and is in use for some years, but still outside. My son's gets a bit of rain, not very well sheltered, and did not last more then two years. I used polyurethane on both. On mine 3 coats and on his two coats. Now I am in dilemma what to use to avoid the same problem in a year or two. I found you suggestion appealing.
Thank you for just reading this!Brundo
Edited 8/27/2006 10:45 am ET by Brundo
If you use just a film finish (like spar varnish), the film will deteriorate, and you pretty much have to strip it off when you recoat. An oil finish will usually not hold up to the weather more than a year or so; but to recoat, all you have to do is rub it down and reapply the oil. Mixing the two will give you the advantages of both --i.e. longer durability of the varnish, and ease of reapplication with the oil. With any exterior finish, you want to buy something that specifically states it contains UV inhibtors. These chemicals are expensive, so how much any given product contains is directly related to its price. The Minwax spar varnish (Helmsman) is cheap, and will therefore contain a smaller amount of the UV stuff than would an expensive marine varnish.I have used the Minwax oil (Clear Shield)as well as their spar varnish only because it is cheap and easily available. And, for me it lasts maybe 5-6 years in a protected area and maybe 3 years if exposed directly to the weather. You could cetainly use better quality products, and the finish might last much longer. Let me also say, there is nothing new about concoctions like this. I first read about it in a piece about Sam Maloof maybe 25 years ago. And, I believe Bob Flexner writes about these mixtures in his book too. ********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Thank you much on elaboration. This will be of a great help!
It's not the rain, it's the sun that causes exterior finishes to deteriorate. And typical polyurethane varnishes aren't well suited for the sun, generally worse than traditional resin varnishes, including the classic spar varnish which used phenolic resin. Good marine spar varnish--Epifanes, Interlux Schooner, or Pettit Captain's are the three good examples in that group wil hold up much longer. Also, two or three coats just isn't enough. Thicker films, with more UV absorber additives, will hold up longer. That's why the labels on the marine spar call for 6 coats.
Still any varnish will need attention, depending on the amount of sun. It can usually be scuff sanded and a fresh coat added for some years. Then, when it starts to fail it can be stripped before the wood turns grey and the process begun again. The key is to stay on top of it. An annual, or every other year if you don't have full sun, will keep the wood looking fantastic for quite a while.
The very first chairs I made from cypress I used Thompson Water Seal and it looked good for the first year. Out here in Ohio the wood turned a grey black from the weather and pollution and did not turn a nice grey weathered look as I had hoped. I ended up using a solid stain over it but it has a tendency to flake off the original finish. I personnel would never use the Thompson finish again. I had the same experience with my deck which was made from western red cedar. All other chairs I used a solid color stain with no other finish. Some are 12 years old and still do not need re-staining. (I do bring them inside for the winter season)
Thompson's water seal has no UV inhibitors or blockers so the wood will turn color although water will bead up on it. What you will want is a sealer with some color that will block UV. Cabot has some excellent finishes that I have tried recently that are intended to block UV so they stay that golden color and repel water. Every couple of years you just recoat. I have used this on cedar fences and it holds up well for maybe 3 years then needs another coat or two. Should be just the ticket for outdoor furniture.
Sounds like your good advice has saved be some possible disappointment if I had used Thompson's. I really have put quite a bit of effort into this project and the thought of it turning ugly out in the weather is really distressing. A nice gray weathering would be fine, but unfortunately, I don't live on Cape Cod....far from it! I have used some pigmented stains on my pine deck, and it has held up well for years without the buildup of old finish. The Cabots sounds much like that. Cabots used to make a product called Bleaching Oil, that was used to "encourage" the salt-air weathered gray look on cedar shingles. I will check that out along with the one that maintains the natural wood look.
Thanks all.
Thompson is junk. Cabots, while far more expensive is equally far more superior for a project like yours.
Rich
I agree with the epoxy sealer idea, but take it a tad bit further and do it to the bottom 3" of anything coming in contact with the ground. Just in case a small puddle develops.1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go 4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
For years, I have painted my chairs (made from any wood that comes along and this year from cherry) with a top quality latex. They last 10 - 15 years when left outdoors (I'm a believer that even though they are outdoor furniture, Adirondack chairs should not be left there). This year I bought some "Copper Coat" (a wood preservative) and coated them before painting. It adds a couple of days to the finish time and in 15 years I'll know if it was worth it.
At the risk of being thrown out of Fine Woodworking and sent over to Fine Homebuilding, I made my Adirondak chairs out of pressure treated pine. Painted with the same oil based primer and latex paint I used on my house, they have been outside for 15 years and still look great (re-painted once and washed many times). Not the best material to work with, but it sure holds up in humid southern climates.
I did make a set of chairs from Ipe a couple of years ago and coated them with a clear oil based exterior finish. However, these were donated to a charity auction so I don't know how well they are holding up. Last I saw of them were on a front porch that was protected from the weather.
I have heard good things about untinted oil based exterior paint. I have some sample cypress pieces that have been outside in the TX summer sun for about 6 weeks now, so it's too early to say how it will hold up. They look good so far.
At $12 qt or so it is worth trying.
This idea keeps coming up, promoted for a time by moderators at Wood magazine fora. It makes no sense. Paint base is formulated assuming there will be pigment. Thus, it may be very good at mildew resistence, but it defies economic reason that the makers will pack this product with UV absorbers that would be of marginal use for a product that is meant to be opaque due to the pigments it contains. The guys who make marine spar varnish know that they have to face a tough, knowedgeble marketplace that is willing to pay $25 to $30 a quart. Since I am a firm believer of the principle that there is "no free lunch" I am highly dubious. The so-called tests published were of relatively short duration and the comparison was made to Minwax Helmsman, one of the worst spar varnishes in the market place.
I hope Practical Sailor will include the paint base in their next round of tests. They seemed to think it an interesting idea when I suggested it too them. I think I will be proved correct--otherwise I will have lots of crow to eat.
You may be right, check back with me in a year or so, I'll let you know how it turns out.
The guys at the paint store sure didn't buy into the idea, either.
How did this experiment turn out?
Not sure if I would use pine for adirondacks. If I did I would use an oil based paint and seal the leg ends with epoxy as mentioned in other posts. I've recently started using Cabot's Australian Timber Oil on outdoor furniture. It will need to be reapplied every couple of years but I like the finish.
I built this chair for my wife a couple of years ago and used the Cabots on the frame and spar varnish on the seat and arms. I ended up having to sand off all the spar varnish after the 1st year because the of oxidation at the varnish wood interface. I replaced it all with the timber oil. One downside to using the timber oil is that you have to wait awhile before sitting in the chair. It has seen 1 New England winter and this summer and so far so good.
Good luck!
I "painted" my Oak entry way doors with hi-gloss paint base that was not tinted. I found information on this several years ago on Wood Mag site and decided to try it out with excellent success. It's been over two years and there is no sign of wear. I shopped around and tried different brands, Benj Moore, Behr, Glidden, but they were not a clear as I wanted. I then tried industrial grade enamal from ELLIS Paint Co. Their "hy-lux"
brand and the part# is 1844C clear base. I would recommend slight thinning out of the can to improve flow using a brush. If you cannot find this brand where you live, try going to an industrial paint store and talk to the staff about this, that's how I choose this "paint".
Good luck, Richard
Update?
I realize this post is 10+ years old, but as you are still active on the forum, I am wondering if you ever verified your theory that using untinted exterior paint is useless/does not provide much UV protection? I haven't had much luck finding any tests conducted by any reputable sources regarding the subject but am coming across this 'tip' more frequently in recent years. I am in the final prep stages of refinishing a set of lovely rocking adirondack chairs that are at least 10 years old, 'rescued' from an aging family members porch. I wish I had taken before photos, to show the dark, grimy condition the chairs started out in. After extensive! cleaning and signicant sanding, a few repairs for cracks and chips, I am deliberating the choices of stains and finishes and was browsing around online at all the different options available and people's actual experiences/results/opinions with various products and brands. That's how I ended up here. Any helpful tips/techniques/warnings are welcome in addition to your opinion/knowledge about the untinted paint idea.Thanks so much!
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