What is the optium width of stock (ASH) to be glued together for a tabletop?
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Optimum width cannot be generalized as it depends upon, among other things, the stock you have on hand (its width, the size of the tree it was cut from, etc.), how it was cut (flatsawn, quartersawn, rift sawn, etc.), how the grain of different pieces will match up harmoniously, etc. etc.
Ash wood, stock size of boards are 12" 10" quarter sawn/ or quarter sawn not for sure, just stock cut normal cut?
Here's my point (and others may well come along and differ): stock choice and preparation involves numerous judgements as far as reading your stock so as to decide what is stable (won't cup or warp or split etc. later) and what is attractive. Quartersawn is very stable, but may not be considered all that attractive in some woods, like ash.
Personally, I try to make my glue ups from the fewest boards possible to achieve the desired width. That said, I don't like two wide boards and one 1" strip if it will be noticable, and in such case, might rip planks to get three boards of similar width. Then again, if I could add the strip to a board with cathedral arches where the straight grain at the edge would blend into the one incher to make it invisible, I'd go that route. See - it all depends.
You know much more than I do! Is cutting a 12" board into anthing smaller than 5" OK/ I just don't want it to cup or something like that..or hav too many boards gluded together..
Start like this:
- Is the wood reasonably flat and straight now? (and has it been acclimated to the temp and humidity in your shop for several days)
- If yes, that's a good sign.
- Try jointing and planing it to get it ready for a glue up, but then leave it for a few days. When you come back, it is still reasonably straight and true? If so, that's real good, and I wouldn't think of ripping it narrower unless you were doing so for another reason like grain matching to achieve an attractive table top.
Edited 2/29/2008 8:53 pm ET by Samson
I was told not to have a board gluded up wider than 5", because it might cuo,twist, and other things..so you believe that a board 12 to 10" is fine to glue together? Yes the boards are flat now and have been in my shop several weeks without and change.. i'll take your advice on anything you recommend. Thanks for your input!!
If the boards were cut well with the expectation that they would be used more or less as is and not further processed significantly (e.g., no pith or other things that happen in the "home brew" or rough sawn world), and they seem stable now, as I said, I'd glue up the wider the better. Many antiques have panels from single boards 18 inches wide or more that are doing fine. There is no need to rip and reglue stable wood. Indeed, it's a shame to slice it up.
Thank You, I'll leave them as is, and glue them up!!
70445,
When you apply glue to the boards it may cause slight swelling at the joint line because the wood has absorbed moisture for the glue. I wait two weeks after glue-up to make sure the swelling has gone down before proceeding to the next step.
These guys are bombing you with complications to emphasize what grain-sensitive, brilliant cabinet makers they are. Go ahead and rip to 5-6 inches and glue them up. 10-12 inches is too wide. 8 would be OK (I'm sitting at a maple table with 8 inch pieces right now.)You will be fine.
"10-12 inches is too wide."
If you're going to make a blanket and definitive statement such as that you do really need to justify it with reason and insight.
You supplied neither.
So my question is, "Why"?
Do you have some specific scientific insight or specialist knowledge of timber technology to support what you said?
Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Sorry for my rude comment, but it seemed to me that the responses to the original poster were unnecessarily detailed. The poster wants some general guidance about gluing up. Evidently he hasn't done it before. So it seemed to me that, as a matter of general advice to a novice, many narrow planks are safer than a small number of wide planks. I said GENERAL ADVICE -- like you I know that there are many complicating issues: How the wood was sawn, how it was dried, how it was stored since drying, grain matching concerns, details of fastening to skirt boards, future humidity/heating environment, nature of finish to be aplied, future exposure of finished piece to sunlight, etc. etc.So my sense is that there was a mis-match between the nature of the poster's question and the detailed response of the experts. No offense was intended.And slainte to you too.
I didn't think your post was rude. It just lacked any reasoning. I was trying to get you to expand on that. Certainly there are reasons to keep wide planks wide and, conversely, there are good reasons to rip those wide planks into narrower parts, and reassemble those parts into a wide panel again.
As just one example a quarter sawn wide plank taken from just off centre of the log is often a good candidate for ripping, taking out the centre 1" to 2-1/2" and rejoining, especially if the middle of the board contains any of the first 25 years or so the tree's growth rings. The first 20 to 30 years worth of growth in a trees's life creates juvenile wood which shrinks differently to heartwood laid down later in life. Leaving those early growth rings in often results in the board cupping into a shallow V with the concave side facing the bark.
Here's another example: boards that come from an off centre location in the log can also be problematic; they can bow, cup and spring in unexpected ways-- sometimes they are best handled by ripping and rejoining.
That's the sort of thing I was looking for. I can't see that it really matters if the original questioner might be inexperienced; there's no harm in presenting accurate and useful information. Somebody will probably get some benefit from it, even, hopefully, the originator of the thread. Slainte. Richard Jones Furniture
Those are interesting points, and I certainly agree that this is the level of detail that ought to be on Knots. But sometimes a short answer is what someone needs.Are you in Scotland? I'm off to there in a few weeks to visit daughter and grandchildren.
"Are you in Scotland? I'm off to there in a few weeks to visit daughter and grandchildren."
I'm a bit south of the border nowadays, about 220 miles. I lived in Edinburgh for a large part of my earlier life. My daughter and grandchildren still live there and most of my friends too. We all keep in touch.
I hope to move back to Edinburgh one day. It's my favourite city because I always immediately feel at home when I arrive, which is pretty frequent. It's a capital city too, and small so you're never far from the country, and it hosts pretty much all the important arts too. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Thanks, I agree with you..that's what I was going to do orginally, but wanted feedback from other woodworkers.
Why do you agree with him?
He made an ignorant unsupported assertion.
Add to that that he insulted the rest of us who were trying very hard to help you. I personally won't make that mistake again.
Look at old furniture, that has withstood the test of time. Did they rip wide boards down?
Traditional joinery has lasted because it works. Follow good design skills and proper allowance for movement, and you can have all the wide boards you want.
Listen to these that have spoken, they speak from their knowledge.
Jerry
What you need to learn is how to determine what causes cup and twist. If you had a wide board which had the elements which cause this, and just cut them, and re-glued all of it back, you will likely still have those problems. Someone who cuts up wide boards which never had any tendency to cup or twist will likely not have the problems later, but they have gone to more trouble, and the piece may not look as nice. If that is what you want, then knock yourself out. First, cupping is related to the difference in ratios between tangental and radial shrinkage. This problem is worse the closer to the center of the tree the board was cut from. If you look at the end of the board, and the arc of the rings is big, indicating that the board was cut from a large tree, the tendency to cup will be less than a board which was cut near the heart. Cutting a wide board with short arc rings, and putting that part back into a top will likely have problems that you don't want as well. Get a copy of R Bruce Hoadley's Understanding Wood. His writing and illustrations have the information that you are needing to learn.
Let's drop back a few steps.
For starters: What is the desired size of the tabletop? What shape do you envision, round, rectangular, ellipse, etc.? What kind of base are you planning? Do you have a drawing/photo of what you're looking to build? Grain orientation of the tabletop boards you want to use?
The questions you are asking can't be answered without more details unfortunately.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
18" wide 43" long, credenza type of furnitue, fastened to the top with Z clips screwed to top
The general rule we used in our shop when making high end custom panels was to use as wide a stock as possible and if you had to use multiple boards, they should be almost the same width and use an odd number of boards. Assemble the boards for appearance. Therefore, do not arbitrarily alternate end grain. Alternating end grain DOES NOT prevent warping contrary to what early Norm said.Howie.........
The general rule we used in our shop when making high end custom panels was to use as wide a stock as possible and if you had to use multiple boards, they should be almost the same width and use an odd number of boards. Howie.
This is a point I have not thought about, that is having an odd number of boards in a glue up. I can see where that would look much better. I will always do this from now on, thanks.
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
You are partially correct in saying that alternating ring orientation does not prevent warpage, each individual board, no matter what its orientation, will still cup more or less with seasonal changes in humidity. But, by alternating the orientation, the glued up panel will stay flatter overall, and place considerably less strain on whatever the panel is attached to or mounted in, and that is the advantage to the technique.John White
Tage Frid argued the opposite. His reasoning is that you can't really tame the washboard effects of alternated rings, but you can tame the larger cup over the width. (Obviously the rail structure matters here.)
Steve,
I agree. I'd rather fight one cup than multiple ones. With a door panel, I can see where it would be advantageous to limit the cupping, and here the washboard effect wouldn't be as noticeable as on a horizontal surface, but I still couldn't bring myself to use a bunch of narrow boards.
By the way, your finishing post are great.
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
I would do everything I can to leave any board as wide as possible. Cal
This subject comes up frequently, and I will sound like a broken record, but here goes.
I am in the camp that says to use the widest board possible ( as long as the pattern match is good). I discount any advise to rip boards down. The minimal (non existent really) gain in stability is not worth the reduction in the appearance. If the board went from a wet tree to a dry board and remained flat or nearly so, it is not going to radically change shape with the minor fluctuation in moisture content inside your home.
Of course some allowance has to be made for expansion and contraction, but this has nothing to do with the width of the individual boards in a panel. I think this point is often confused; that is the stability as far as cupping is concerned and that of the expansion/contraction. Take a top made from three 8" wide boards and one made from a single 24' wide board; if in that width top, there is the potential to move 3/8" from winter to summer, the glued up top won't move any more or less than the solid top (assuming similar growth ring configuration). The solid top may display more of a tendency to cup, but this is easily dealt with by using proper joinery, and putting the heart side up. On the other hand the glued up top will also cup, but there will be three cups instead of one.
Another subject that is rarely discussed is the reflectivity of wood. Wood is much like carpet, in that it changes color and grain intensity depending on the viewing direction. See this link http://americanfederalperiod.com/relectivity.html. This is why I cringe every time I see the references to alternating growth rings.
Rob Millard
To some extent, everybody that responded is right. Yes there are many antiques that have large slabs for table tops,but check the species of wood before you can generalize that antiques stayed stable and were not kiln dried. Walnut, cherry and mahogany make up the bulk of those tops with 24" tops out of one piece of wood. We don't have those trees anymore unless you have one on your own woodlot and if you do sell it for veneer. Professional cabinet makers try to stay around 4-5" because it is a relatively safe dimension all the time, no matter what the orientation of the grain. I have had QS white oak cup when I was stupid and did not take equal amounts off throughout. We all glue up the best side up and try to take more off the underside and we get into trouble when we don't equalize the passes through the planer. I have used 14" walnut boards unsupported by fasteners and 12" cherry for one piece drawer fronts (Thos Mosher does it all the time)but I do not think I would use ash in 12" pieces. Hickory is even worse, had to keep my pieces at 4" on 2- 36" X 48" 5/4 for a harvest table top. I kept the 4-12" leaves at 3" and it cupped a little.
Fifteen years ago I went through 2 top end furniture manufacturers in Grand Rapids,MI and there every board was ripped to 3" and then cut to length and glued up to make what ever they were going to make. This included table tops , dresser sides and even chair backs. They said they didn't want to chance warping. This may be a little over kill. I usually shoot for 4 to 5-1/2 " in ash or any other wood.
Optimum width for me is about 5 inches, no less than 3 and no wider than 6. One reason I choose 6 as a max is that my jointer capacity has usually been 6. I may go wider if I have a larger jointer and the stock is quarter or rift sawn. Either way, one face should be jointed before glueup.
You have got a lot of input on this so I'll throw mine in. Many moons ago, I thought (don't remember exactly from where) that smaller boards were more stable. I did some glue ups and still had cupping and twisting. It use to frustrate the bejeezus out of me. Now, I understand a lot more and my issue was not being willing to wait. Bringing in the stock and letting it set. Doing your rough milling and letting it set stickered. I know now that the stability of the wood has more to do with things and picking the right wood for the right application, like QS for Rails and stiles etc. I have milled some boards down and had a little cup, but milled a second time (allowed extra for this), and after that second pass it was fine. If if moves much, go a different direction. Anyway that's m2cw. I'd stick with wider boards but I generally go balanced.
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it.
And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
bones,
I generally go balanced.
What does that mean? I've not heard that B4 in the context of the discussion.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
"bones,
I generally go balanced.
What does that mean? I've not heard that B4 in the context of the discussion.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!"
By balanced, I mean if my top is to be 12" (example), I would prefer one 12" or two 6" or 3 4"s .vs. two 5"s and a 2". To me the two 5" and a two would seem out of balance. I guess it's a made up phrase. Maybe a better prase would be it' just don't look right to me. I try to let the boards dictate how it goes together. I can remember back when, I would maximise the lumber to minimize cost, but now I may pick through a bunch to find the right ones. Of course, I have more money now as well, and that makes it easier. Take care.
Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Gotcha. Makes total sense.
Thanks,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
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