I hardly ever use Poly as a finish but I am making a sitting bench for my oldest granddaughter and she wants a Gloss finish of Poly on it?? Not sure why but that is what she asked for…
The top is only about 33 inches wide by 18 inches deep. The poly I have tried (both water based and oil) flash off too fast to get a nice finish. I know, it is probably me!
I find that the poly flashes off to quickly, at least for me…
Anybody know of a retarder to use for water and/or oil based. I am using MinWax but I am not above using any other brand,
Even the water based will dry too quickly and I have very high humidity this summer here in Chicago.. Almost every day!
Replies
Poly isn't a class of finishes. First, oil base "poly" is entirely different product from water based "poly", there are few common attributes. Water based, better called water borne" is an acyrlic finish, with additions of other resins, including a bit of polyurethane, to modify the properties a bit. Oil based is a varnish based around an alkyd resin which is modified by the addition of a polyurethane resin. . Poly adThds some additional abrasion resistance, and little else. But it markets well. "Poly" really is better suited for floors and not desirable for furniture.
I'd recommend a non-poly oil based varnish for high durability and the ability to create a gloss finish. Pratt & Lambert 38 is an excellent lighter colored varnish. Behlen Rockhard and Waterlox Gloss are both high quality phenolic resin varnishes, but a darker amber color. These will be much easier use in achieving a quality gloss finish.
Oil based poly like other higher quality varnishes can be easily retarded by the choice of the thinner used. Mineral spirits are slower than naptha. All oil based varnishes need some thinning. Manufacturers routinely lie about this on the labels, since they have removed thinner to conform to VOC limitations, and if they they just told you to thin that would violate the rules. You do need to thin varnish.
The key to a gloss finish is less how perfectly you can apply the varnish, though that helps, but in how well the finish is rubbed out after it cures. With gloss, the surface flatness is important. So preparation prior to applying finish is important. Really work for FLAT with the final sanding at about 180 grit being done by hand using a moderately large sanding block. Then expect to apply about three coats of varnish (or even fourcoats if you have had to sand a lot to level the varnish of the early coats) sanding between coats with 315 grit paper. Again sanding by hand with a sanding block helps you see whether you really have a flat surface, so you want the next to final coat to be evenly sanded without glossy patches. If the original surface wasn't as flat as you thought you will see it,
Apply your final coat of varnish as evenly as you can, but you can fix minor defects easily. Let the final coat cure as long as you can before rubbing out A month would be good. Runs and sags are best removed with a scraper such as a single edge razor blade or the blade for a utility knife. Then give an overall sanding with 600 grit to remove all dust nibs and level the surface without cutting through the final coat. Jump to 1200 cami to remove the 600 grit scratches. This might take longer than working through all the grits, but you will remove less total material and thus have less chance of sanding through the top coat. Then shift to a polishing compound to remove the 1200 grit scratches. For the highest level gloss, which would usually be overkill, you could even go to the very fine "swirl remover."
Steve...
I understand your very helpful reply. However, I asked about a retarder for Poly. Either water or oil based.
You have to understand that I am making this for my Grandaughter (a gifted artist in my opinion). She has her own ideas about everything!
She liked the Jatoba hardwood I use alot of and she wanted a sitting bench with storage for her bedroom. Like the common grandfather, I told her.. SURE... What a mistake on my part... I had to make it in the dimensions she wanted and with a stain color very much like the very, very old, rosewood you see used on very old chinese furniture. Not the really dark (almost black)color of patina on old rosewood. (And not black lacquer which is much darker and no hint of red).
I tend to use a 'Danish' oil (varnish, gilsonite colorant) on Jatoba. Jatoba, in my experience takes on little oil, stain, tint or whatever in certain areas of the wood. Filled with glass? :>)
For the bench 'lift up top' I used some left over Jatoba veneer plywood I had. It is expensive by my standards so I thought using it was a wise thing to do... Very wrong! I may just scrap the top and use guled up boards.
As I ramble on... Every sheet of Jatoba ply I have ever used, has some areas of open grain. Not unlike common oak. It is almost like the veneer shrunk in certain areas. I made a 'filler paste' -- 'grain filler'--- from veneer removed from the scraps of the plywood I used. The wood was ground up in a blender and I used Dewaxed Shellac as a 'carrier/glue'.
All looked well after a few hours with my card scrapers on each side of the top. I applied my so called Danish oil. I waited one week (Maybe not enough?) and then applied a wipe-on Oil poly (Min-Wax Gloss). I use it sometimes but only in 'Satin', not 'Gloss'.
All goes well until I hit the areas that have filler in the grain. It would seem that the 'Poly' hates these areas for some reason.
I am sure I can fix this with ALOT of extra work. I was just thinking that some retarder would allow the poly to flow a bit longer over these areas and look like the other parts.
I think that I stated that I am not a finisher of wood. Pretty good with black lacquer on old cars when I was a kid....
I could correct if I had spray equipment and a place to do it. I work in my attached garage these days and I babysit often every week so I cannot use much solvent based.. Especially spraying.. And then again I have old/new dogs and a few birds. Birds die very quickly around solvents.. Don't ask how I know....
I still thank you for your reply... good stuff to think about.
I'm afraid that from your description there is something else happening than having varnish that dries before it can flow into a particular area. I don't think a retarder is going to be the solution to your problem. It sounds like, though I'm not quite sure I've got it right, that something in the filler is repelling the varnish. This is usually a contaminent of some sort. Slowing the varnish cure won't have any impact on this--perhaps even the reverse.
What is the vehicle for the gilsonite colorant, mineral spirits or something else? What are the proportions you are using? And is it correct that you just mix the gilsonite with varnish to make your "danish oil", I'm a bit confused since danish oil is usually a mix of oil and varnish--possibly with some colorant. Traditional Danish Oil of the oil/varnish variety is applied and then vigorously wiped off of the surface. Is that what you did with your version of "danish oil"?.
You are using a very unorthodox pore filler, though I can't see any reason why it shouldn't accept varnish, though it would not accept a true oil/varnish danish oil since the shellac, having sealed the wood, would let almost no oil/varnish penetrate so that virtually all of it would be wiped off. .
With all due respect to your granddaughter, Steve has given you a MUCH prettier and NICER finish than poly. What reason does your DGD have to require that plastic looking finish. Sorry, but it is true.
Have you considered using a wipe on varnish finish of the variety Steve has suggested--a NON-poly varnish that will give a much better depth "in the wood" look. It can be gloss.
I tend to use a 'Danish' oil (varnish, gilsonite colorant)...
I am one old male in a family of baby to adult women. I learned very long ago, that arguing with them is impossible, and I always have to 'back off'... Unless, I feel it is dangerous for them to do.. As a man with a family of mostly females, I learned long ago, to please them.. Not argue with them.. Makes life much easier for me.. Sometimes...
She is an Artist and has strange and wonderful ideas about things. I had some Jatoba.. She had some idea...
Jatoba does like oil but some Jatoba will have open grain in a few places that need to be filled.
Danish Oil is a blend of linseed oil and gilsonite colorant (whatever that is). She wanted a gloss poly finish. I tried to make her happy! That is all there is to it. I thought I only asked about a 'retarder' of some type that could be used with oil or water based Poly? Maybe two different retarders.
She wanted to try to tint the color of the oil for her background so she could paint a Salvador Dali type painting onto the top of the sitting bench I made for her. I used a so called danish oil rubbed out but we found that where there was open grain the color/tint? of her 'paint' changed.. She was not happy. All I know is that the color/tint changes where the wood had open grain.
Shellac, that I love, made it worse because it is transparent.. I have no idea. I have never claimed to be a 'finisher'..
She wanted to paint her object over a gloss poly.. I did not ask why!
I solved 'our' problem. I wiped down the bench top with Acetone and then made a pad from a large 3M green sheet and put it onto my orbital sander. (Yes, the pad only sort of holds on the sander gripping pad). After buffing out the old finish I used a spray can of Varathane Red Mahogony. It is a stain with polyurethane.
I applied three coats with a 'rub out' of each using the same method. For the final coat rub out I used a 3M gray/grey pad.
I finished off by hand rubbing the wet Varathane Red Mahogony with a grey 3M pad. The top is only about 18 by 30 inches.
I think that the stain within the poly hid almost all under defects.
She is happy.. All that counts!
YES, she is happy. She has not learned about a good finish. So be it. She might be even happier with a finish suggested here. If you always "bow down to her" she may not "learn". Just another grandmother offering something.
She has not learned about a good finish..
On the contrary. Or should this be to the contrary? I, in fact, showed her what was posted in this topic about the finish suggested.
As far as I can tell, her 'wants' are based on a project she wants to do for her Columbia college art classes. It is any project they want using a finish that was thought out by all members of the class. Each student will use a different media such as wood, metal, plastic etc. using the list of finish chosen by the class. Gloss poly was chosen by the class for the protective base coat on different solid media. I think it is a class experiment or demonstration? I did not ask further...
They do not have to make anything special for the project. Only apply their art onto the base coat chosen by the class. I was making the sitting bench for her and she wanted to put her art onto the lid/seat.
I know one thing.. I learned alot! I hardly ever use Poly, mostly oils and wax. I will use poly even less.
I DO understand.. 'Just another grandmother offering something.'.... Her grandmother died long ago and I'm the only one left on our side of the family. She is a wonderful woman and I do everything possible to help her. If that means "bow down to her", I do it. We get along great as I do with all of my children. Yes, I am a pushover for my children but they are well behaved and respect others. All I could ask of them...
I do understand your point and I was a bit taken back ('taken aback'?) at first look. Just me, on your statement. I reread and I thought a perfect answer for some children or adults like me...
I hope you take my reply as only my thoughts. No objection to your words at all.
Thank you for the reply.
A gentlemanly response, and thank you for it. ;o) I just DO hate poly.
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