North American and European Woodworking
It’s interesting how two cultures do the same thing so differently. Sliding table saws, short fences, and combination machines are of European origins. North Americans have long fences (longer is better seems to be the theory), fixed base routers, and dedicated machines. The European riving knife has gained much popularity in North America, while other ideas have not fared so well. We North Americans also use aluminum and hold work together with clamps, rather than cramps. What other noteworthy differences are there between the two cultures?
Chris @ www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
(soon to be www.flairwoodworks.com)
– Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. – Albert Schweitzer
Replies
Europeans have real beer.
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Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
~ Denis Diderot
And Canadians don't?
Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Not that I've tasted so far, which one did you have in mind?
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Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
Well, it's awfully subjective, but I'm referring to that of micro breweries. I like the local Granville Island Breweries line. Molson Canadian? Ooog. (Didn't expect this thread to go this way!)Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Guinness fan here, we can change the subject if you like! Don't want the authorities knocking down your door!
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Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
I'm not a Guinness fan. I was going to mention that in my last post. Nothing here to be censored or ashamed of.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
You're still young, taste develops as you age!
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Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
Still hope for me yet, eh? Glad to have you around here, Don.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Glad to have you around too!
I really appreciate the effort you put into helping others.
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Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
You're no slouch either!Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
One does what one can. Have a good evening.
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Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
"You're still young, taste develops as you age!"Yeah thats because taste buds die as you get older.
Edited 2/7/2009 11:16 am ET by ted
Hey DGreen,
You know that most of the Guinness you get in the USA is brewed in New Brunswick, right?
Anyhow, I suggest trying "Fin du Monde" and anything else made by Unibroue -- good brews.
-Andy
you have obviously never had Labatt Lucky Lager
Chris,
I'd say that the most far-reaching differences are due to the existence in America of a huge serious hobbyist market, which is hardly a factor in Europe. Did you know that in order to practice carpentry in Germany or Switzerland you still today must go through an extensive and rigorous apprenticeship system? After their formal training, the young journeymen are required to travel around (dressed in their medieval attire I might add) and live for a year by picking up jobs as itinerant carpenters. I know this because occasionally they've arrived at my door. But the very existence of the hobbyist market in the US and Canada has created many tools. The obvious one is what's called a tablesaw in the US, but you have only to leaf thru an issue of FWW to see that easily 50% of the items on sale have been created for that market of serious hobbyists.
David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
David,By practice, I hope you mean work to make money off of, rather than making something for, say, yourself. Hobbyists - that's certainly a big difference, and one that I am grateful for. I am glad to be able to be attempting to make a living off of the craft at my early stages of life. Apprenticeships are not at all common in North America, especially in woodworking. They are a little more common in trades such as electrical. Thanks for the post.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
The European riving knife was actually a design that was taken from an American table saw before the Uni-saw came out in 37' I believe and consequently set the tone for all table-saws from that point on as they were cloned to the Uni-saw. The Euro's adapted the riving knife for safety purposes I believe but it's really not important when.. where and why.
I have an accurate.. very smooth gliding long fence but a short fence rides it's face... adjusts fore and aft.. and can be taken off in seconds on the rare occasion I have need of a longer fence. Not sure where the idea of the short fence originated and I suppose it really doesn't matter. I find it safer in ripping and most other fence mandated operations.
Not sure what you mean by Americans and "fixed routers". I have a fixed under my router cabinet and use a "fixed" to trim laminate. But.. I also have two plunges for hand held operations and could not live without them as I do dadoes and a host of other things with a plunge?
Have to agree with Ring (David) that there are many more hobbyist in N. America as they have more excess to affordable machinery and don't have rigorous guide-lines that have to be met from both qualification and safety stand-points.
I think the biggest difference between European WW's and American WW's is the fact that most Euro WW's live in Europe and most American WW's live in America. And they often have different accents when you hear them in person. On the other hand.. they both put their pants on in basically the same manner and bleed when cut with sharp or dull objects. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
So... there is much common ground whether one admits it or not...
Back to the shop to be a serious hobbyist that isn't always serious. :>)
Sarge..
Edited 2/7/2009 9:38 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
Sarge,
My impression of the amateur British woodworker at large is that he is often a bodger, by which I mean a person who is slapdash and not inclined to refine his pieces. There are a lot of plain ugly pine thangs that are fit only for burning, IM not-so HO. This a a bad tradition often perpetuated by the lower end of British woodworking magazines, who are fond of cheap, do-it-in-a-weekend, not-difficult stuff. Design thoughts are foreign to these woodworkers, who prefer a simple plan.
On the other hand, there is also a British tradition of absolute perfection and precision, mostly found in professional cabinet makers but also in a significant group of amateurs. This contrasts with a rather more handtool-led approach amongst many Americans, who seek a high quality look rather than out-and-out precision, which precision often ends up in a piece looking a bit soulless. Many (not all) British woodworkers seem to like the Robert Ingham philosophy of woodwork as wood engineering. Personally I prefer the Samson idea of "evidence of the hand of the maker" which I think of as a largley American approach - in this day and age at least.
Another significant difference is in the area of finishing. The American trend seems to be to cover everything with 47 varieties of stains, gels, shellacs, oils, paints and gawd-knows what else. In Britain there is usually (not always) a much simpler approach of no-stain and a basic coat such a a varnish, shellac or oil/wax.
Perhaps one big overall difference is that American WWs often seem both trapped and inspired by traditional forms whereas British and European top-class makers seem much more radical in their designs. Personally I prefer the former but then I'm a rather old-fashioned conservative (except when I'm a raving rebel).
Lataxe, giving only his vague personal impressions.
I must be a middle of the road WW with no real sense of direction on the traditional and radical. I just seem to build em and "damn the torpedoes" on what the outcomes is. Regardless of how it ends there seems to be no end as I just go build something else that suits my fancy at the moment. I am more of a wood mechanic than design inspired WW as the actual end result does not tickle my fancy as much as the making of the joints that result in final assembly.
Finish.. must be a middle of the road kind of guy there with the above applying in this department also. Stain.. just oil and shellac.. just depends on the mood as regardless I just go build something else. So... I can't say really why I do what I do.. Traditional.. radical.. stains.. oil.. shellac.... whatever. I just do it as I am just a mechanic at heart.
Now... off to work on that "old timey" computer desk-hutch. No style.. no expected end result or look... just "old timey". ha.. ha...
Regards...
Sarge..
". . .which precision often ends up in a piece looking a bit soulless. . . ."There you go again with your sweeping stereotypes. I think any number of students that have been disciples of Peter Korn, Robert Van Norman, James Krenov, the North Bennett St. School, et.c would take issue with that quote (myself included).
Well now Ted, don't get me wrong.....
The precision woodworking I'm refering to is not the same as "highly competant" and also has a tendency to exclude a more traditional and quiet proportion in preference for innovative joint-making and a sometimes ostentatious, even loud, look. It definitely worships the machine although handtools are used where the machine can't go.
The look is sometimes described as "crisp"; think "finely-wrought IKEA with lots of clever decorative but geometric embellishment". In short, not Krenov or anythng like it, as that seems to value subtle nuances of design and excellence of execution rather than robot-like perfection in a piece.
Of course, we are into the land of generalistions here; but I do think there is a very real desire in many British designer-makers to achieve a degree of perfection that approximates to the sort of precision that a very clever robot might achieve. Think modern car rather than finely made carriage.
Lataxe
David,Great post - you hit on some key differences and utterly confused me with your last sentence.I don't know how radical my designs are considered (they certainly aren't reproductions), but it seems that I fit your description of a European woodworker but build like an American, allowing hand tool marks to appear in my finished work.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
I Live in the United Kingdom and thought you may find the following explanation of the word bodger interesting
regards CharnwoodView Image
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POSH
BODGER/ˈbɒdʒə/View Image
An itinerant chair-leg turner.
This term was once common around the furniture-making town of High Wycombe in Buckinghamshire, between London and Oxford. Bodgers were highly skilled itinerant wood-turners, who worked in the beech woods on the chalk hills of the Chilterns. They cut timber and converted it into chair legs by turning it on a pole lathe, an ancient and very simple tool that uses the spring of a bent sapling to help run it. Their equipment was so easy to move and set up that it was easier to go to the timber and work it there than to transport it to a workshop. The completed chair legs were sold to furniture factories to be married with other chair parts made in the workshop.
The word only appears at the end of the nineteenth century. There may be a link — through the idea of a itinerant person — with a much older sense of the word, for a travelling merchant or chapman. The Oxford English Dictionary finds examples of this meaning from the eighteenth century, but there’s a much earlier one from Holinshed’s Chronicles of 1577 (a major source for Shakespeare) in which William Harrison rails against bodgers who bought up supplies of wheat to sell abroad, leaving nothing for local people to make their bread with.
But that leaves us with another sense, the more common one (at least in Britain and Australia) of an incompetent mender of things, which Americans and some British people may prefer to see spelled botcher. In both spellings this comes from the Middle English bocchen, which had a sense of repairing or patching. It could be significant that in medieval times it was a neutral term that had no associations with doing a job badly. It’s possible that this old sense of the word survived in dialect or local usage, and evolved into the furniture bodger, while its meaning in the standard language changed.
Yet another sense of bodger is hinted at by a line in the Flanders and Swann song that mentioned the rhinoceros having a “bodger on his bonce”. Many people have written to say that they know a bodger as a pointed instrument for various purposes. For example Doug Dew wrote: “From my childhood in Surrey, I have a vague memory of the use of the word bodger to mean a blunt stick or tool used to make holes in the ground for seeds”. Alan Harrison added: “Bodge is certainly in use in Black Country dialect for poking or making a hole. I have heard my father use bodger of an instrument used to make holes, as for example when making an extra hole in a belt when the wearer has gained or lost weight”. Tony Chadwick, Professor of French at the Memorial University of Newfoundland, remembers the late Dr George Storey, co-editor of the Dictionary of Newfoundland English, applying bodger to one of those pointed sticks for picking up litter. Others have mentioned that it is the usual name for the tool used by scaffolders, which has a spanner/wrench at one end and a point at the other.
It seems extremely likely that this is a variant of podger, recorded from the nineteenth century in various engineering contexts. Indeed, several subscribers wrote to say that they knew of pointed instruments under this name. It is said to derived from podge or pudge for something short, fat or thick-set.er
C,
A podger - definitely my word for a pokey/spearing stick.
I don't think the current meaning of bodger comes from botcher, even though the meanings are similar.
A greenwood working book I once read, but now can't find, mentioned that chair bodgers eventually got a bad reputation as they were paid less and less for more and more spindles, as the chairmakers did the usual business thing of competing labour to get the lowest cost.
The spindles (indeed the chairs themselves) became poor as they were made by unskilled folk and at a rapid rate, often from inferior material. In addition, the manufacture was of the production-line type, with bodgers only making the spindles not the whole chair. This generally leads to boredom and a lack of commitment to quality in the assembled article (a chair).
In a poorly made chair, the first sign is often spindles that come out of their housings or snap. Thus the poor quality was easily attributed to the bodger rather than to the chair-assembler or the businessman commissioning and selling the chairs.
Is this the true etymology? Who knows, but it's a good tale. :-)
Lataxe
A podger is a tool used in steel construction -- I used it erecting hydro towers (pylons) in England. It's an occupational rather than regional term, I suppose because construction workers move all over the country. It's a 2 in 1 tool, open spanner at one end, drift at the other. They're not short and thick ("pudgy") but about 15 to 18" long, made to fit a 5/8 or 3/4 hole and bolt.
You use the drift when you're landing one section of tower on top of another. You use one podger to line up one set of bolt holes, another podger to line up a second set, and theoretically a third set of holes should then line up to accept a bolt. In practice you quite often have to use force, so it's not exactly a precision instrument. When you're 100 ft up with the wind blowing up your kilt you just hammer in a bolt as best you can with a podger, and somebody comes along later to replace the damaged bolt.
I can see how a similar technique in chairmaking might inspire scorn in a competent woodworker, but I think your etymology is more convincing.
Jim
Jim, that may also be refered to as a spud wrench by USA iron workers, millrights or crane and pile driver erectors. Mine is a long drift with a 1" off set open end . Paddy
Yup, that's the same animal. Spud does make more sense as a name, c.f. the tool used by gardeners, but I never heard it used over there. Strange language.
Jim
Jim,
Perhaps this is you up on them pylons stringing new cables?
I took these photos a year or so ago, whilst out walking Monty the hound, when the pylons coming out of Heysham nuclear power station across the River Lune were being upgraded to have three cables per arm rather than two. I talked to the blokey in charge (to get permission to photograph) and he told me that all the cables in the UK are gradually to be replaced with much lighter and more efficient ones, in terms of power transmission. Thus three where there were two; and four where there were three.
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However, in light of the recent snow/ice on the cables that have caused a few cables to snap and even a pylon or two to crumple, is this a wise policy?
Any road up, I wouldn't care to be up there a-dangling-o meself, despite the opportunity for a reet good podging session!
Lataxe, who likes the ground.
Nah, not me. These guys are wearing more safety gear than an astronaut. We were a little less formal.
Jim
Sarge,Quite the grabber you have there - the riving knife is actually an American invention?I believe you introduced me to the short fence. I tried it, but haven't given it enough of a chance to get used to it and like it.By fixed routers, I meant fixed base router. Here on Knots, I suggested to a transatlantic woodworker that a fixed base router would work well for his application. He responded that fixed base routers had never caught on over there.I thought that they wear trousers?Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
FW
Another thing that drives the woodworking differences is the availablility of wood. In my case, I am looking at felling a 200 year old walnut tree that is beginning to rot in the center. It's my land and my tree. N.Amer mentality.
In Germany, you better talk with the forestmeister before you fire up that chainsaw. It's different.
For me, the wood inspires the direction and project in some cases. I don't take that for granted. I would imagine the tool makers are in-tune with the needs of the different camps and they try to reach the biggest market.. no?
later
dan
Dan,Yes, I for one am very grateful to have the bounty of unique wood next to my house and available to me. I can be the romantic type who will design an entire piece around a unique piece of wood. Like this one...Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
>Wavy slab<Aaaahhh shades of George Nakashima. Have you looked in on his work ? Built stuff for the Rockefellers and was also an architect over seas. He traveled extensively and lived in India and Japan. His book called The Soul of a Tree is a hand drawn work of art in its own right !roc ( who some times regrets being such a curmudgeon hermit ) ( but a cow can't winnie )
Yes, I am familiar with his work. I bought his book after reading Maloof's because I liked Sam's so much. I found Nakashima's a disappointment compared to Maloof's. But that's just me.Yes, the slab does scream Nakashima. Which reminds me... I have a Nakashima-inspired question to post on storing lumber...Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Another UK perspective here.
There are lots of differences - language, attitudes towards saftey, availability of tools and timbers, workshop sizes. I could fill a book.Language is one of the more amusing and potentially confusing (and sometimes embarrassing)areas of difference. Our planer is your jointer, our thicknesser is your planer. You apply French Polish with a tampon, we use a rubber. And we are just as shocked by your nomenclature as you are by ours, I can assure you, tampon has a very different meaning over here!Safety is a big difference. Although all the main writers do stress the importance of riving knives and guards, my understanding is that many people regard them as optional. I'm not saying that nobody uses an unguarded blade over here, but nobody would dare to stick their neck out and photograph, let alone film, a tablesaw being used in this way. Dado blades are regarded here as the tool of the devil, mainly because of the difficulty in guarding them. My personal view is that we are too restrictive and that many on your side of the pond are too gung-ho and we would all be better to adopt a more mid-Atlantic position :)Whilst it is possible here to get exotic timbers, you will almost certainly have to order it mail order. Any local timber yard is going to have oak, ash, perhaps cherry (but unlikely to be the quality that you guys seem to be able to get), poplar (only we call it Canary Whitewood), and maple. Other than that it will be softwood and MDF. One or two of the bigger yards like Whitmore's will have walnut, elm and probably a few others, but they are not the norm.My workshop is 28' long and varies from 10-12' wide, and that is considered large for a home shop over here. We all have the impression that you all have basements you could play basketball, all fully kitted out for woodwork. Are we seeing it all through rose-tinted glasses?Finally I think that the real problem is that children are not taught woodwork in schools any more, or at least, not to anything like the extent it used to be when we were kids. So few children have ever picked up a plane or a saw. Most hobbyists over here learn as adults. And because night-classes and other tuition is thin on the ground, we mostly get our info from books, mags and DVDs. I have to declare an interest here in that I have contributed to WW books, write regularly for a UK mag and have my own series of DVDs, so I'm not exactly unbiased here, but I would say that in many respects UK mags and US mags complement each other, rather than compete.FWW is obviously the market leader, but after you've had it for a few years you see the same article reappearing. I think I have 3 version of "5 ways to make a drawer" and an unknown number of "Finishing with oil" ones. I'm not saying that doesn't happen over here, but I certainly don't see it as much. Of course, it's always new to someone, and there are, after all, only a limited number of basic techniques in woodwork, after that it is all style. And that is where I think we win hands down :) European styling is far more cutting-edge. But as I say, I'm not entirely unbiased.FWIW I really enjoy the different views and approaches and I try to take the best from all.Cheers
Steve
Edited 2/9/2009 8:44 am by Steve Maskery
Thanks for your perspective on WW in the home shop over there as you clearly called a spade a spade. I have some acquaintances over there that do manage to use a dado even though I personally don't over here. Like sands in an hour glass... these are the day's of our lives.
I got interested in WW in high school shop and you mentioned it had been dropped pretty much over there. Well.. it has pretty much been dropped over here along with metal-workiing.. auto mechanics.. etc. etc. for budget reasons and computers rule in the budget department.
Again.. I really enjoyed your take on WW over there. I have to run down to the shop (1/2 basement and two car garage) to shoot some hoops now (ha.. ha...) and hope the sun glinting off the 14 K gold plated drive-way doesn't get in my eye while I shoot .. :>)
Regards and have a good day...
Sarge..
Edited 2/9/2009 4:28 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Hallo Mr M - nice to see you here in a propah WW forum. :-)
Now then, you opine:
"My personal view is that we are too restrictive and that many on your side of the pond are too gung-ho and we would all be better to adopt a more mid-Atlantic position".
But I wonder what evidence or fine logical argument you bases that opinion on, hmmmm? Personally I would nanny the Ypean WW even more than the current regs already do, as there are plenty of silly-men only to keen to take the risk of removing a bodypart or nutting a plank. (Or allowing the naive apprentice to do so).
Now, some will say, "It hasn't happened to me yet" assuming that no novel events ever occur. Perhaps they told themselves this in the womb? "I haven't been borned into the cruel world yet so I nivver will be". Ah ha! A fallacy, as all bairns and tailgaters at 90mph on the motorway will eventually discover.
My logic goes like this: the Ypean regulators on WW machines are not all silly politicians or bureaucrats but practical folk who have seen the dire and bloody results of machines chawin' on humans. In short, I trust their experience more than mine or yours.
Lataxe
Hello Lataxe, I thought you might have something to say :)The instance I had in mind when I wrote that is the case of short arbors on tablesaws. This is to prevent us from using dado heads. It is not illegal to use a dado head over here, but it is illegal to use a machine without a guard or one that doesn't stop within 10 seconds. (I'm talking about workplaces here, you can do what you like in your own garage.)Dado heads are the cause of hundreds of accidents a year, so they get a bad press, but in every case, I suggest, the accident happened because of poor practice. Dado blades can be guarded, but not usually by using the standard crown guard. I have to think more creatively. So I have three different guards that I use on my tablesaw and I use the one most suitable for my needs.As it happens I don't use my dado head for cutting dadoes! That is the most difficult to guard, and a router and housing jig (there you are, Chris, a dado is a housing over here)does the job in half the time, more safely. But a dado head is great for splining picture frames, for example, which is what I'm doing today, and it gives a better finish when cutting rebates. In both cases I can guard it well, so I don't see why I should be stopped from doing so. But finding a tableaw in the UK that has a long arbor is very difficult. In fact, I think that my Xcalibur, a Delta Unisaw clone, is the only one on the market and that is not CE rated, so the importer is sailing a bit close to the wind.That is my case.OTOH I think it is bonkers that anyone can order a 1k machine, plug it in and start using it without any training whatsoever and then expect the rest of society (we have a National Health Service over here) to pick up the bill when it all goes belly up.And I can't understand for the life of me why anyone would want to use a saw without a proper riving knife. They are not restrictive at all (in the way that a splitter is) if they move with the blade and that is not exactly difficult to engineer.So there you are, a real-world example.
Right, I'm off to cut some big juicy mitres (or, for you, Chris, miters!)Cheers
SteveSpace is more valuable than the just that occupies it.
Woodworking DVDs and jigs from http://www.workshopessentials.com
Steve,
"....but in every case, I suggest, the accident happened because of poor practice".
So true, but then only me, you and Sarge always do good practice, on every ocassion, without fail. (Yes, I'm fibbing). So, just in case a fellow should find himself less than 100% fully competant and attentive one day, perhaps we are best not to employ machines that are configured as-standard to chew upon our persons when we suffer a lapse of attention? And we must not forget those naive apprentices, who can be Full-On-Daft for some years, until the hormones abate a bit.
Still, I suppose the NHS must have some chaps to practice finger-sewing and bandaging on. :-)
Personally I have hold-downs on the TS fence and a feather board in the mitre slot (all it's good for, that slot, as a sliding carriage is the Ypean norm and so much more usable, happily for us). Even a propah saw with the guard and riving knife might decide to "have a go" at us so it's best to muzzle the blighters as well. I think all TS should be sold with a fence with a hold-down or two mounted on it (T-tracked, as I did with mine retrospectively) and/or a magnetic featherboard.
If Scheppach and other Ypean manufacturers would implement a saw-stop style mechanism, I'd buy such a saw in an instant. It only takes one careless episode, when one is tired and emotional, for the finger(s) to go flying orf in an arc of bloody splatter. Even the NHS cannot always make them good as new, assuming the cat hasn't anyway nabbed them for a snack whilst one is slumped pale-of-face on the shed floor, regretting one's slip of good-practice standards.
Lataxe, as yet still whole.
Steve,I feel slightly honoured, being given the privilege of being on the receiving end of your first post. Great post, by the way.Regarding French Polishing, I am more familiar with the term rubber. I think I picked it up from Flexner's book, Understanding Wood Finishing. I am also familiar with the other meaning of tampon.I feel that your safety point of view is fairly accurate, the same goes for workshops. There are a good number of small (10x10-ish woodworking shops here, though too. In general, it seems that in Europe, space in at a premium (not even enough room for face frames!). Not the same over here.I'm not sure that our education system is much different in that respect. My high school dropped the wood shop class the year after I left. There are classes available in colleges however. But for kids, soon, the only exposure might be helping out dad.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Don't forget Nakashima was interned with other Japanese during the war...makes it that more impressive of what he went through in life to get to where he ended up.
The Europeans pioneered the horizontal slot mortiser. Found on combo machines and stand alones. Goes back to the 50's or more. American hobby woodoworkers and many pro shops are just finding out about it. The Festool Domino is one example. The American version is the Multi-router which is a step backward with more unnecessary bells and whistles...make it more complicated! Vacuum bag goes way back as well. Not invented by Darly Keil as some seem to thing. European hardware and the 32 mm system.NOt to mention you could design and make a piece with European hardware and get the hardware later and it would fit. With American hardware you had to buy the hardware first or it wouldn't fit later. Europeans are leading innovators in sheet goods as they cut down all their trees years ago. Europeans are the first to make electrical components that are interchangable.
Machine bases of sheet steel and cement and concrete instead of cast iron. Innovators in tooling with insert knives...yes, they had it first, not Byrd.
The parallelogram jointer, although it's not as good as the inclines on the old Crescents or Olivers for convenience and ease of changing a table.
There's more...
Edited 2/7/2009 11:14 am ET by RickL
Ah, Rick, I knew I could count on you for some good info.I had never thought about the influence Europeans had on how we build cabinets. A good system, no two ways about it. Now if only I could figure out how to build cabinets without having to build boxes...Maybe it has something to do with the general lacking of a hobbyist market East of the Atlantic, but all their tools seem to be top notch, whereas some of what is available in North America falls short. Or maybe only the better tools make the voyage. Those Europeans make good tools!Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
"Those Europeans make good tools!"
It is first by requirement, and then by design, I think. The more nominal tools for Lataxe's "bodgers" are downline versions of what the major woodworking forces in the EU require by their unions and by EU-OSHA.
The Gewerkschaft Holz und Kunststoff, GHK (Germany), the European Federation of Building and Woodworkers, and the Italian unions of Fillea-Cgil, Filca-Cisl and Feneal-Uil represent the EU's wood-processing industries and comprise some 40,000 firms and employ almost 600,000 people.
It's a powerful lobby and all the tool companies kowtow to them on the safety requirements, the least of which is the highest quality metallurgy and tool making. The other reason quality is first is that it precedes the reduction in accidents and given that some of the EU countries standards require "employed for life" or pay huge fines for termination, it is even more understandable. They also generally pay the disabled for life at working rate.Yes, they make good tools but I suspect the quality of EU tools is to a certain extent one of economic consideration. Boiler
"The Europeans pioneered the horizontal slot mortiser. Found on combo machines and stand alones. Goes back to the 50's or more. American hobby woodoworkers and many pro shops are just finding out about it. The Festool Domino is one example. The American version is the Multi-router which is a step backward with more unnecessary bells and whistles...make it more complicated!"I'm curious what is so complicated about a MultiRouter? It only adds a Z-axis and a tilting table. The tilting table may be common with slot mortisers but most I've seen don't incorporate, however my Inca does.I know there is the whole stylus and template aspect but that seems more like an accessory, its hardly necessary for the tool to be productive. Only time I used that feature was to make round tenons, otherwise it seemed completely unnecessary; make your mortise and size your tenon to fit.To me the value of the MultiRouter is the Z-axis which enables you to whip out tenons remarkably fast and retain the mortising in a compact package. Its not for entry doors but for furniture and especially chairs its a great tool.It is expensive but the build quality is there, its not cheap in that sense.Just surprised to hear someone with a beef against the MultiRouter, its just a 3-axis router jig; I don't see the complexity.Now in regards to Euro practice the combination jointer/planer with a mortising option seems to make so much sense its hard for me to believe separate machines are the norm. I know in industrial settings the changeover is prohibitive but for a small shop the utility seems to outweigh the hassle. I would trade the Z-axis for 12" jointer capacity and the smaller footprint.
The fact that they try to make tenons and dovetails with it. Can't be simpler than to make your mortises and use loose tenons like the original European concept. The multi-router wasn't the first but it was the most bells and whistles from an American company.
Now in regards to Euro practice the combination jointer/planer with a mortising option seems to make so much sense its hard for me to believe separate machines are the norm. I know in industrial settings the changeover is prohibitive but for a small shop the utility seems to outweigh the hassle.
I think has as more to do with space and attitude... On this side of the Atlantic we (with the exception of those apartment dwellers) are blessed with space. The attitude come in on two fronts: Dedicated machines must be better than combo. AND: The price of an equivalently sized Jointer and Planer is typically less. (Thou quality is probably less as well)
For me personally what seems to tip the balance is the possibility of using the helical head with a J/P. Maximizes the performance of two operations and with the carbide inserts the cutter life issue is minimized.The utility of using the mortising table just is another great option for a small custom builder.Now when you are primarily dealing with sheet goods like a cabinet shop then these machines make a lot less sense. Better off with pocket hole machines and any kind of edge bander.One cabinet shop I worked at had didn't even use a jointer or a planer, everything was done with the wide belt. They did have those machines but they sat unused in a corner of the shop.When the economy allows I'll move over to a combo machine, I'm convinced for the way I work its benefits far outweigh what I give up.
I don't know a great deal about it other than my reading/observing via pics in mags and some VHS tapes by Jim Kingshott but the higher end Europeans seem to use oak in the drawer sides and we tend to use pine or poplar.
I subscribed to a European magazine for a year ( almost eighty dollars for twelve issues ) expecting more hand work and perhaps higher end attention to design and detail.
Boy was I wrong. I am back to FWW and glad to be. The other thing I ran into is they are running articles by our American builders that are identical to what was ran in FWW a few years ago so I wound up paying twice for the same articles !
I could watch Mr Kingshott work all day, by the way, but alas he did not have one article in the mag I subscribed to. He may be retired by now.
roc
http://www.nonesuchtools.com/kingshott.html
Kingshott is past retired...
> Kingshott thanks for the info.Sad to hear. I wish he could have had the longevity of Maloof and Krenov.wowrocEdited 2/8/2009 6:36 pm by roc
Edited 2/8/2009 9:02 pm by roc
What other noteworthy differences are there between the two cultures?
WE live in different places and think different.. WAY differently?
Worked with Belgium folks. I love them but as strange to me as I was to them, as I would think. If you need to know... Worked with some wonderful engineers. Very young engineers... and service folks (they were the engineers) . The girls were the BEST.. Very pretty and KNEW what they were doing! The men.. Just So..So..
Xeikon that went belly up... but.. Great folks especiall the women engineers.. OK so I love women! Got more than a few in my family!
Lier, Belgium? As I recall it was in Gent?, some old Agfa plant that was modernized?
Wood working is a hobby for me; however, I have an extensive shop and take on some large projects. Over my working life as a manager; I ended up working in America England and Germany for many years at a time; which provided me the experience of doing woodworking as a hobby in different countries. As one respondent noted the British have almost a fetish with safety and the prices of wood in England are beyond belief.
The availability of space in the typical British home, forces the wood hobby out to a garden shed... not the best arrangement. In Germany the size of the homes is more like America and there I had a rather nice shop.
Wood prices in Germany were much lower and a greater variety was more easily obtained. I've come to think that tools are almost universal any more and the variations which I found do not amount to a great deal.
Sheet goods are much more commonly used in Germany; mainly because their style of furniture seems to be more aligned with the use of plywood.
A lot of what I did in England was to buy antiques and repair them; which was easier than trying to purchase hardwoods for construction of new pieces. My experience is that there are more German hobby woodworkers than I found in England. It seemed much more common there. It is an interesting hobby no matter where you are located and it is not that hard to find supplies in any modern western country.
Over the years I bought many antique tools in both Germany and England; which was a delight.
In the city museum in Speyer Germany there is a display of some Roman tools. All quite similar to what we have today.
So, there is not a great difference between countries in the western world... availability of wood, space to work, and local furniture design varies a bit... but the basics haven't seriously changed for a very long time. Somehow in a rapidly changing world, there is some comfort in that knowledge.
Moksha
In the city museum in Speyer Germany there is a display of some Roman tools. All quite similar to what we have today.
I 'think' I have been there. The Romans, with all their faults, were wonderful woodworkers in stone AND wood!
Speyer was a city for almost 1,000 years prior to the Romans conquering it. The City still has the Roman defensive walls, main gate, Roman baths, Roman Coloseium in which events are still being held, a large modern looking building that is still in daily use built by the Romans, the most amazing thing is a Bridge over the River Mosel carrying four lanes of auto traffic today was built by the Romans. The city museum in Speyer has a large excellent display of Roman artifacts. I would recommend a visit to Speyer by anyone with a love of history. During my time in Europe I built up a collection of Roman antiquities and although I wanted to find some Roman tools to add to my collection; the closest thing I managed to buy was a group of Roman nails of various sizes. The oldest tools that I managed to obtain dated to the middle ages; tools from a village cobbler. When do you think you visited Speyer?
Moksha
When do you think you visited Speyer?
Not sure. Lets just say somewhere between 1960 and 1964? I was stationed in Kaiserslauten Germany for about two years. Cold war thing. Kaiserslaute had some old German armored barracks that survived and where we were. I was in armored artillery then. Heavy self propelled armored guns. 8 inch, 5 inch an 155 MM. I was a recovery mechanic.
My toy then was the M88 (early vintage).
I am sure I visited there but I cannot recall seeing the Roman Colosseum. Maybe all the strong, warm German beer consumed?
Will,
After seeing your crane, I understand how you can toss your drillpress all around the shop, throw it onto its back, with such ease.
More power! ar-ar- arrrgh!
Ray
After seeing your crane, I understand how you can toss your drillpress all around the shop, throw it onto its back, with such ease.
I 'Grunted' ALOT at my age! But I was skinny and strong when very much younger!
Edit: I sure would love to drive that M88 something again! It could pick up a house if the A frame was tall enough. I had a great crew to help me.
I also had a M543 that I used very often.
Edited 2/13/2009 8:15 am by WillGeorge
M543
Kaiserslauten was just west of where I lived in Germany; Waldsee a small village south of Ludwigshafen and just north of Speyer near the Rhine river. You were not far from Trier and it was a popular destination for troops stationed in that area. The Roman Coliseum was located away from the city center to the East South East... about five blocks from the old main wall. At one point a branch of the wall ran up to the coliseum and enclosed it within the city. Wine was and still is the main industry in Trier. It has been a major producer since before Roman times and exported a lot of wine to the Roman empire. A vast network of caves underlie the city and they claim 300 million liters of wine is stored in those caves. Karl Marx was born in Trier and his father was a Jewish wine merchant there. Attached are pictures from Trier, the beautiful woodwork is inside the Dom or Catholic Cathedral, which was made
by the Romans in about 345.
I have never been to a Yuropean wood shop. So my limited viewpoint was they all worked in small sheds so they could never be seperated from the fine planes and special ol tools from the days of yor. Sir Davids shop is my only visual, and it seems to be a bit of a Hobbit Hole. Extrodinarily Comfy, with first breakfast, a second breakfast and such. Easy going and no rush or bother. Time to blather with folks, and get a few cuts in here and there. Somehow I envisioned lots of those places around and about. His view of the poor quality around has quite ruined my fantasy.
So I did meet a fella here the other day who had a big fancy house in Colorado. He put it up for sale, and a Texican wanted it quick. Gave him full price and wanted him out in 10 days. This fella had a 40 by 25 shop full of tools, PMs and all the nice stuff. He told the Texcian no way he could move it all out in 10 days, so he asked for $50,000 extra for his shop full of tools and he got it. Left the whole shootin match there for the fella to cut all his fingers off. Probably never touched them and they are covered in rust by now, who knows. So I asked him, now that you live down here in Phoenix, and had all that cash, you must have built one heqq of a shop. Nope... said he quit working wood, and took up playing Golf.
Morgan
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-------(*)/ (*) http://www.EarthArtLandscape.com
Morgan,
Golf! Now there is a queer activity. Why do fellows feel that compulsion to knock a small white ball into a hole using a stick? Shurely this causes the ruination of a good walk, as Mr GB Shaw opined? Also, them golfers are prone to wave and shout if one rides the knobbly-tired steed through their estate as a short-cut that avoides the deep-water ford......
As to sheds (as they are rightly called); it is important that these are a physically separate domains from the hoosey, wherein there is generally lodged a pernickity ladywife who is often a martinet concerning clean floors and tidy aspects. Dust and shavings are not welcome, nor the whine of TS and burp of bandsaw. My shed is Full Up but this (and it's all-wood, insulated aspects) mean it is a haven for a pottering-lad, as you discern.
For instance, yesterday I spent a happy hour or two making shaker peg rails of cherry and blackwood, upon which muddy walking boots will be hung in the vestibule. The rails complement a fine wee A&Cish mirror and hat-hook thang I made some years ago. Muddy boot off the floors is a condition that pleases the ladywife and her tidy-gene.
****
Incidentally, light nights are coming as is the joy of Spring. I have been out in the lanes again charging about on the velocipede. Happily, no snowdrifts hereabouts just now but there is a brown and purple haze of fat-bud in the treetops.
Lataxe, an old phart in a shed.
>>Shurely this causes the ruination of a good walk, as Mr GB Shaw opined?
That quote is actually from Mark Twain.
Ben,
I stands corrected. :-) No doubt that GBS nicked half o' his aphorisms and such from the likes of Mr Twain.
Perhaps the sentiment was really first opined by some ancient Scot, just after the game was invented and he had had a bad day with the stick and ball? Of course, the language is likely to have been rather more colourful.
Lataxe
Lataxe,
an old phart in a shed
I pharted around in a shed B4 but I wouldn't do woodwork in one. The word shed reminds me of an outbuilding with a bunch of junk in it, rusty, dank and musty smellin. Sounds like a good place for old pharts!
Ye needs to add some glamour to yer woodworkin palace. Silk curtains festoonin the winders, lots of American made iron thangs and a proper reefer ta keep yer spirits cool.
Those laddies up North of ye invented that sport of knockin a little white ball around ye know. We Americans just perfektid it.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 2/11/2009 7:35 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
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