Take a look. Here’s a link to Christopher Schwarz review and the link to the Lee Valley site. Tom
http://www.popularwoodworking.com/article/veritas_premium_block_planes
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=61963&cat=51&ap=1
“Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand”
Replies
Very shinny, I do like the rust resistant alloy that the casting is made from.
Have fun.
Troy
This reply is in response to a previous post on Lee Valley's newly designed tools. I actually like the looks of the new dovetail saw and block planes. Since I am in the market for my first dovetail saw, I plan on purchasing the Veritas. I have no doubt that it will perform just as well as other western saws that cost twice as much.
As for the premium block planes, I think they are stunning although at $300 they are way out of my league. I admire the designers at Veritas for their original designs. I don't understand what all the exaggerated criticism is all about. A previous poster described the new plane "resembled a suppository". Huh?
I guess some people would prefer if Veritas just copied designs by Stanley and Disston. Hasn't that been done already?
I would like to congratulate Lee Valley for it's unique and interesting tools (they also perform well too by the way). Thanks.
Donovan
Hi Donovan
Only the Premium (SS) version is expensive. The Standard (black) version is roughly the same price as the (continuing) Veritas LABP.
My review is at: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasPremiumBlockPlane.html
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek"Only the Premium (SS) version is expensive. The Standard (black) version is roughly the same price as the (continuing) Veritas LABP.""Expensive" is a relative term. If someone is interested in getting fine tools, and one has the means, the cost should be irrelevant. Gas has been getting cheaper lately, but a few months ago, the Premium LV block plane cost was the same as about three tanks of gas for the auto. When you think about it that way, it is a bargain.Not only that, but the SS won't rust, so you can use it underwater. How many planes can you say that about? Well, I guess that technically, you could say that wood planes wont rust either, but they are tiring to use for underwater work because they tend to want to rise up. A ship's carpenter would definitely want the new SS model. If you are going to use the SS for underwater work, especially deep sea stuff, it is good to drill a hole in the body (( NOT THE SOLE!!!) and attach a lanyard which you also attach to your belt, in case you drop the tool. I don't think that the LV people really thought through the design of the SS for underwater work. The use of a rubberized coating on the grip would have been handy. Luckily, you can buy that coating in cans, and just dip the top of the SS in and let it dry. It could well be the best designed block plane for underwater use that is on the market today. MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
"Expensive" is a relative term.
Hi Mel
What about this as another "accountancy method" of judging whether a plane (or any other tool) has value .. as you have already noted, the LN (and likely the LV) have high resale value in the short-term. .. now what about when you keep the plane until the day you die?
To determine the value, you employ a assurance assessor to determine your potential life span (in future they will have an office inside your neighbourhood woodwork store). Simply divide the cost of the plane by the number of years you have left. Calculate this as cents per day.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,
You got me again.
I am going to change my name from Mel to "Target".
MelPS - I have often thought about the disposal of tools after a woodworker dies. That would be an interesting topic.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,You remark sonorously:"I have often thought about the disposal of tools after a woodworker dies. That would be an interesting topic".I am getting buried with mine. Hang on! The daughters will just dig me up to get at the loot!! It'll have to be a ritual burning on a large pyre. No doubt they will then burn their fingers rather than get digging-blisters.Perhaps I'll leave them to a charity, such as the "Make a Crusty Old Neanderthal Happy Although He'll Never Admit It" society.Lataxe, nowhere near deed yet (I hope).
If your daughters don't I will.
Pedro,Apropos that other matter: I noticed this:http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/subscription/Materials/MaterialsArticle.aspx?id=31880Lataxe, who is setting Pedro-traps around the shed.
Lataxe, I like that Idea you set some nice Pedro traps, then when Pedro is stuck in them I can come on over and climb over him and said traps and get the goodies.
Opps did I say that out load?
Doug M (getting back into shape so I can climb over Pedro and out run Lataxe)
Doug,As you have seen, the Doug-traps consist of an ensnared Pedro, who gets you by the vitals as you step on him. As you squabble over who gets which plane, I set the cat on you. He only has one canine left but he will snaggle-tooth you quite viciously. Also, you will be too embarrassed to be seen with a cat on your head, so you will both skulk by the shed instead of escaping, until I have chained you to the bench where you will have to perform regular sharpening duties and clean up the shavings (by eating them - there is no spare soup in the house).This is the terrible fate that awaits any who even glance at them planes with the wrong kind of glance. (I can tell admiration from lust quite easily, as I am familiar with both emotions).Lataxe, a jealous plane owner.
Lataxe,
Thanks for the article! Very interesting. I will begin baking all my wood at once. If you do the same make sure you don't put your Marcou's in the oven else the plastic handle on the new one will melt.
---Pedro, who is getting into shape so he can hold Doug Meyer's weight when he climbs over him.
Lataxe,
You aren't going do die for decades. I wasn't thinking of you. But you do bring up an important issue -- what does your wife do with the tools? There are lots of different circumstances, which would call for different approaches. BUT let's not get ahead of ourselves. Lets leave this topic for a full thread in the near future. I believe a lot of people are going to weigh in on this issue. NO ONE IS GOING TO BURY YOUR HERD with you! I won't let that happen. :-)MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I have often thought about the disposal of tools after a woodworker dies. That would be an interesting topic.
Hi Mel
Why not raise it on TBT (The Big Thread)?
I am going to change my name from Mel to "Target".
Sorry Mel :)
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,
You asked why not bring up the topic of what to do with the tools of a deceased woodworkers in the Big Thread. We could. But not too many people other than the usual group, are visiting the thread. I think this is a very interesting issue. I'd like to start a separate thread on it. Once I start it, I'll just step back. I see the issue as something to get lots of input on from different people -- moreso than for an interesting discussion. Well tomorrow is Thanksgiving around here. My wife is already up with our daughter and son in law. Tomorrow I will drive up there and have dinner with our daughter's inlaws. One of the things I am thankful for on this holiday is the great set of friends I have on Knots. I value your friendship. Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Bit morbid really. Why not discuss what the first tool we'll give a child/grandchild will be?As for Lataxe, with my neural implants in his brain (by Christmas at the latest) he'll go back to Festool, and give all his Marcou's to me. I'll send the one with the plastic handles to Ray. I'll send one of the others to Rob Lee so he can stare at it until he develops some aesthetic sense.
---Pedro
Pedro,
"As for Lataxe, with my neural implants in his brain (by Christmas at the latest) he'll go back to Festool, and give all his Marcou's to me."GO FOR IT. I'll drive out and sharpen your Marcous if you let me try them out. I really wasn't being morbid about a woodworker's tools after his death. I am also a stamp collector, and I have witnessed a number of widows taking their husband's stamp collections and "selling" them to a dealer for virtually nothing. A few minutes preparation by the guy would have helped his wife get a more reasonable amount for his collection, or at least to insure that his wishes are carried out. My wife wouldn't know which of my tools are resellable, which are worth a reasonable amount of money, which could be sold on EBay, which on Craig's list, etc etc etc. I am thinking of developing a short form that woodworkers could modify and include with their will. I believe (no joke) that woodworkers really need to spend a bit of time putting together some info, writing it down, and giving it to their wife, or other important person.I believe the thread on this topic will be quite interesting.Happy Thanksgiving, amigo.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,You are at it again! Now you are wanting us to confuse tools with valuables or government bonds. Perhaps that Rob Lee has sussed the market and is about to offer chisels in the form of glittery necklaces or a measuring implement that may be worn as a gaudy broach? Now I understand why some of them posh tool making lads include certificates of autheticity......Next you will be locking your tools in a subterranean cellar with many alarms and bars, inclusive of a nitrogen atmosphere. I have sent your details to Mr Holtey and to Mr Economaki.Lataxe, who uses his tools to do things.
David,
My tools are special to me. Read the message that Ray sent me. He feels much the same. He described it better. It has nothing to do with the pretty baubles being turned out by Rob Lee or Tommy LN. For the most part, my posts on Knots are much like yours -- they skim the surface, and include irreverence, and poke friendly fun. Once in a while, I get serious. I guess it is difficult to tell which is which, but not for me. With regard to the disposal of tools after the death of a woodworker, I am quite serious.It may be that the coming thread on that topic will help make clear how different people feel differently about tools. Read Ray's message again. There are some woodworkers who do not chase the latest change in block planes or shoulder planes by modern makers, but rather become attached to a good tool that may have a history with previous woodworkers, especially one that you admire. After using a tool for a long while, one can become attached to it. One becomes comfortable with it, and its idiocyncracies. As that happens, the tool becomes more of a "tool", that is, a real extention of one's hand, arm and mind. One does not replace such a tool with the latest neatly designed tool that the yuppie woodworkers are flocking to.Such things are impossible to explain - like describing "color" to a person who was born blind. You understand such a feeling. As you said, you are taking your Marcous with you. Attaboy! Gotta admire a guy who is firmly attached to his tools.Gotta go and pack for the trip. See you in a few days.
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Value and attachment to objects is all relative. It's 7:30 AM, Thanksgiving morning and I'm sitting here, having a cup of coffee, Fox and Friends is on TV and across the room is one of my curio cabinets full of civil war artifacts. The top shelf has a Union Kepi, with Union "bullseye" canteen to name two objects. The Kepi has worth in the range of a Marcou.
What's my point? Well for one, later today, I can't take the Kepi out of the cabinet, put it on and wear it to Thanksgiving dinner, although, if I had the Marcou, I could surely use it as I do all tools (at least once) that I have. The Henry Disston (no sons) rip saw (with stamped and not etched imprint) I have, I sharpened (very carefully) and used it once before hanging on the wall. It's sharp and should I want to use a #7 rip, I know I have it (along with more than a few similar saws). The Kepi reminds me every morning about the cost of freedom when this country established itself.
Once you try to apply value, you are de-personalizing the item and making it an object to be hoarded much as old Ebeneezer did with his gold. Little good will it do him when he's gone. With sentimental attachments, such as Ray has, of course, you must make arrangements in advance. But for items you accumulate through life, enjoy them and make sure your family knows you enjoy them. Then they will know the right thing to do with them when the time comes.
T.Z.
Wise man, couldn't agree with you more. All this talk of wills and detailed instructions for post-mortem tool allocation strikes me as materialism in disguise (and taken too far). It's the attachment to, and not the value of, a tool that counts.If the kids/grandkids work wood, they'll know the value of tools and cherish the ones you used. If they don't, no amount of posthumous desire will convince them that a LN is anything other than an oversized paperweight.I'd rather talk about life, and the living, and what we're doing now to make them value tools and handwork.I'd meant to stay out of all this morbid navel-gazing, but your post was so spot-on, I couldn't help myself.Happy Thanksgiving!
---Pedro
Tony,
Value and price.
Right. The price one can get for something is one thing. It is important. But the Value to the individual is much different -- like your grandfather's watch, the bow saw that Tage Frid gave you the day he took you to see a Yankees game in New York City, or the original handwritten tool review of Derek Cohen which is on the back of a napkin and still has the coffee stains on it. Such things have great value, yet the price is indeterminable.
Hope you had great Thanksgiving. I did. Am at my daughter's place now. In the next hour I will take a quarter inch off of the bottom of two doors which rub on rugs as they are opened, and fix the lock to the door to the garage. LIFE IS GOOD.
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Only problem with the Cat idea is that I have been living with them my whole life and their is little that they can do to me that one of them has not already done. (don't ask). As for Pedro getting into shape, well he better get into good shape I am NOT a small boy (last I checked I was over 275 in blue jeans and such. Add in the weight of those plans (you were going to wait for me to get back right? I mean you are stuck in the trap so I figure you will wait until I get them out of the building at least Pedro). And you will need to be in real good shape.
Humm, maybe I will just have to track down your female relations and marry into the family, then I can inherit them. Do you HAVE any female relations??
Doug Meyer (trying to come up with a new plan of action).
So sorry, Mel.
The name "Target" is already spoken for. It's mine. I took a pasting in an electrical thread for offering to help a fella wire his saw plug.
You'll have to find another.
Jeff
Jeff,I am off to search for that thread you mentioned, as I cannot see you as a target and want to know the trick for getting the roundel on to you. One never knows when the biscuit must be defended agin' those mad-eyed folk who detest the lovely wooden wedge.Lataxe, who can't eat too much bread so is looking for the circus.
I removed all traces of myself from the thread. Too many know-it-alls for my tastes.
Jeff
Jeff,
"The name "Target" is already spoken for. "OK Jeff, it's yours. If we are going to name ourselves after the big box stores, you can be Target. You can call me Home Depot. Home Depot may not be much, but it is better than K Mart.Happy Thanksgiving.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
"PS - I have often thought about the disposal of tools after a woodworker dies. That would be an interesting topic."
Indeed, it is to me as well.
1) I have a bunch of tools that belonged to my dad, and a few that were his dad's.
2) My next-door neighbor, retired Ethan Allen shop foreman, said to me once,"I'm gonna have my sale before I die. I want to make sure everything I have ends up in the right pile!"
3) I have been to more than one sale of a woodworker whom I respected, or was a mentor to me, just to buy something to keep as a "memento mori". I think of him each time I use that tool. Now, I'd remember him regardless, but the memory is tangible with the tool in hand. Who will remember Lloyd, Carlyle, Jay or Mac, when their/my tools are dispersed?
4) Many, if not most, of my hand tools are old enough that they were owned by more than one person. Some were related to me by blood, some, by an acquaintance, many, not at all. A name may be stamped on the end of a plane, of an owner, long dead, unknown to me, but for how the tool was treated by him and since then. Others are unmarked by any of their previous owners. Yet, there is a lineage of sorts, continued by my ownership and usage- the placement of my hands upon the surface where they grasped them-of these tools, a kindred spirit that is passed down (without getting too ghost-whisperer about it) from user to user. We pass from this earth, but the tools we leave behind pass from hand to hand.
As Nathaniel Dominy wrote on the plate of one of the clocks he made, "Where oh , where! Shall I be, when this clock is worn out?
I've been thinking of my hand tools. Why am I not concerned about the disposition of my tablesaw and jointer?
Ray
Great post, Ray. I feel the same about my hand tools, and, likeyou, have some that belonged to relatives and some that came to me from unknown woodworkers who I still feel a connection to.
Ray,Amazing. I suggested a thread on a topic, and the first responses were all negative. But you understood. This is not a joke. It is dead serious.I really want to start a thread on it. I believe it could be the most important thread ever in Knots. SO, please hold that magnificent message that you wrote. Truly, you have the soul of a woodworker. You don't have a cursory attachment to pretty tools. You have a deep attachment to tools that have served you and others well, and you want them to endure in a meaningful way with someone who can and will appreciate what they have. My tools don't have the history your have. I do have some from my father and father in law, and a plane from a good friend. My tools are well cared for. I want them to go to someone who will use and appreciatte them. Like you, I am not talking about my old Craftsman drill press. But a simple list would let my wife know what tools could bring her some money on Craigs List. I'd like my kids to have some of my tools (based on their interest). I don't think about this much. I need to. Not to dwell on it, but to do something rational. I look forward to a great thread on this. Lets not let all of the cats out of the bag until this starts. Have fun. I really appreciate the message you sent me.
MelPS do you remember when the "Bulls**t" stamp became popular. People would Ink-stamp it on things. At that time, I came up with a different ink-stamp: "Written with a pure heart". I didn't use it often, because it wasn't often called for. If I still had thatt stamp, I'll put it on your message (so to speak).Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hi Derek,You wrote:
"Only the Premium (SS) version is expensive."Not true. The standard version is 8.5% more than the equivalent from Lie Nielson, and Lie Nielson isn't exactly known by how cheap its products are.Both the new LV block planes are expensive. From Chris Schwartz review I also gather that due to the length of the tool (largest block plane in its class): "This is a two-handed plane in my book. If you can wield it with one hand and take a heavy cut you probably can palm a watermelon.". Isn't the whole point of a block plane to use it one handed?I'm taking a page from David Savage's tool reviews and calling a spade a spade. Ugly, impractically large, and expensive. Yuck.
---Pedro
From Chris Schwartz review I also gather that due to the length of the tool (largest block plane in its class): "This is a two-handed plane in my book. If you can wield it with one hand and take a heavy cut you probably can palm a watermelon.". Isn't the whole point of a block plane to use it one handed?
Hi Pedro
I must disagree with Chris. The new LV block planes are very comfortable and easy to use one-handed. This is how one would bevel edges. However, as much as one could plane end grain (etc) one-handed, no one would not really do so. Even a small #102/103 would be used with a second hand to steady the toe in such circumstances.
Holding the Premium plane one-handed does not require a large hand. Mine is very average in size. Held correctly (Chris even mentions this), the lever cap nestles into the palm and the thumb and fore-finger automatically go to the finger recess. The plane does feel heavy this way one-handed while it is held outstretched in mid air, but fortunately it is designed to be held against a board most of the time. When this occurs, the plane becomes light again :)
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,Being always impressed with the quality, functionality and price of Me Veritas' lines, I'm glad to read in that Schwartz interview that the new block plane is not a new direction for LV but just a peripheral line in "posh". Perhaps they seek to do a Bridge City albeit as a sideline? Who knows why, especially if they are in some sense flogging them cheap (compared to the manufacturing cost) as is alleged in that interview.Of course, all tastes are allowed in tool decoration but the thing looks too cadillac-fin, Buck Rogers for my personal taste. As a youth I would have deemed it "a chrome bomb". Still, if it works well why worry? However, real men with impeccable taste look to New Zealand..... :-)Lataxe, owner of many Veritas instruments as well as them antipodean ones.
DerekThanks for the review. I think the planes, especially the 'shiny' one, look like art deco. And I can't believe that LV, LN or anyone save Mr. Marcou would make you send the plane back after testing. Seems to me to be a bit stingy, not to mention the cost of shipping may outweigh the value of the plane. If it's a question of ethics/conflict of interest if you keep the things, then perhaps you could send one to Lataxe, one to Mel and save the next one for ME! :) Tom, giving thanks for all good things, including new tools."Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand"
Thanks for the review. I think the planes, especially the 'shiny' one, look like art deco. And I can't believe that LV, LN or anyone save Mr. Marcou would make you send the plane back after testing. Seems to me to be a bit stingy, not to mention the cost of shipping may outweigh the value of the plane.
Hi Tom
Thanks for the sympathy. Happily, this was only for the protype I was providing feedback on at the time (it happens with other protypes as well. They get returned). It gets sent onto the next person for opinion. They are just protypes - the skew rabbet and the side rabbet planes I was sent were made of plastic. It is just for examination. However, the block plane was close to final specs, and just beautiful. I mourned its loss for weeks.. The planes I reviewed were production planes and given to me for the time I put in on the protype. The reviews I write are really just to share my experiences with others, and even then I select out the ones that I think others would find exciting (I have quite a number that will not be reviewed - just never enough time, so I keep it to a few). I am presently putting together several reviews of several block planes, vintage and new, and various manufactures. But first I will finish a comparisoin of the Veritas Skew rabbet plane with the Stanley #289 (its ancestor). I am building cabinets a-plenty and these are being used for some of the work.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Hi there Derek,
You mentioned that you are putting together a review of some block planes, could you through in a #140 skew? I use it as my only block, and I'd like to know how it compares to the more traditional variety. I want to avoid buying tools for the sake of it, and only get the minimal set that will do the trick.
All the best,
---Pedro
Hi Pedro
I do plan to do a #140. Not the Stanley #140 here, but a LN #140 that eventually replaced it.
Did I say a few block planes?
View Image
Regards from Perth
Derek
Oh wonderful! And all the way down on the right in first place where it belongs! I can't wait to read this comparo. When's it due?
Thanks in advance,
---Pedro
Pedro,That LN140 skew is a wunnerful tool, as you well know. I have one other block plane (a standard angle LV) which has been relegated to the job of planing dirt off rough planks to ensure that nicer planes don't get their blades nicked by a hidden nail or bit of gravel. Other planes seem to do anything the standard block can do; and often a bit better.The LN 140, on the other hand, seems to get used for all sorts. For example: super-smoothing edges and rabbets of well-behaved grain, fitting tongues on breadboard ended tables and dealing with big tenons or bridles. I bet you could give me another list of tasks it performs very well.....? Like you I am enamoured and want the left-hand one too. So, whilst Derek's comparison will be very interesting to read, as always, neither you nor I need him to tell us that the 140 is a fine and useful plane, even if there is a chrome bomb or other model that cuts well and looks all smooth & glittery to boot.I think Derek renovated one of the early LN140s, which (as I recall reading somewhere) was the first model made by Mr Nielsen......Lataxe, who is somewhat askew hisself.
True, I don't need Derek's approval to know I'm right in loving the 140, but he always puts in little bits about new uses to a tool that I'd love to see for this one. In fact, why not skip the comparo and do a full-length homage to the 140 with all its uses. I too would like a left-hander, but my right-hander has the cocobolo knob and they don't make it anymore, so the two wouldn't match. More fraternal than identical twins. Very upsetting.The 140 is tied with the Marcou for my favorite tool. Every time I pick either one up I smile.I just used it to cross-cut (with no blow-out because of the skew) the inside of the hole I'd cut in the cabinet sides. It's all meant to be very lovely but may end up looking terrible. Not sure. But the skew did it's part. I also use it to trim any proud endgrain on dovetail, finger, and through tennon joints. And of course, to raise panels and cut rabbets.
Happy Thanksgiving!
---Pedro
Good grief, Derek - part of you trip down the slippery slope has been down the "Block Plane" Black Diamond Run.
I think if I had that many block planes, living in the USA as I do, I'd donate about half of the herd to Habitat For Humanity and write it off on my income tax return.
Having worked on HFH sites, I can say that what they really always need is electrical extension cords, but I guess some of the volunteers could amuse themselves with the block planes and thus not do any serious damage to the structure of the home being built.
Take care, Ed
"Yes, but what's good for me ain't necessarily good for the weak-minded." - Augustus McCrae, Lonesome Dove
Hi Ed
Heh .. most of them are borrowed. My aim is to provide a short review of each, mainly for to use as a reference aid for those wanting to buy a block plane cheaply, to restore, what to expect at different price levels, etc.
.. here is a shot of my #140 (restored from a wreck) ..
View Image
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,I vote with Pedro - put aside them other blockers and do the LN140 homage first. This will add ammo to my case for spending even more pension on another edge tool (the LN140 LH version) which case must be water-tight, copper-bottomed and irrefutable, since it will be made to the ladywife who is a vicious accountant at times.Your article could include a procedure for Pedro to make a cocbolo knob for his second 140, as he has become obsessed with the look of the thing as well as the function. I feel your detailed description of that new LV chrome-bomb block plane may have affected him, despite his protestations. Before long he will be polishing the brass instead of sweating on it, as real woodworkers do. Then he will be secretly obtaining Bridge City catalogues........Lataxe, who only has that one LN plane.
Derek, I avoided the silly prices for the old Stanley #140 by picking up a Miller Falls copy that I think to have a bit better fit and finish. I reach for it frequently, it's a very good worker. Have you ever had one in hand? All the best, Paddy
Hi Paddy
I like MF - especially the braces and egg beaters - but their tools are thin on the ground in Oz. So, no, I have not had a chance to try their #140 version. I spent several years with the Stanley #140, tuned it up really well, and only bought a LN because a derelict one came up on eBay that no one wanted! I would say that the renovateation was something of a team effort with Thomas LN, which is what makes it special for me. It has a thick W1 blade and it tuned ... and yet the Stanley is not disgraced by a long way - it works nearly as well as the LN. I chose to keep the LN and sell the Stanley. I wonder what other #140 makes there are out there?
Regards from Perth
Derek
Tom,You can have my Veritas freebie chrome bomb plane, which I know LV want to send to me in order to try and stop me admiring Marcous. One of the grandchildren would only try to use it as a toy spaceship and cut hisself.The danger of buying an art deco plane is that one might have to remodel the shed to achieve a matching look. Can you imagine how hard it will be to bend all those planks into swoopy curves? Also, things will fall off the bench, which will need to be shaped like the Normandie ocean liner.Lataxe, who has never liked finned machines except on the engine block of a large single-pot motorcycle where form follows function rather than a designer's brain-spasm.
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