I was responding to boilerbay on the ‘potty mouth thread’ when suddenly the discussion was closed to response.
Big Brother? Are you there?
Anyway, I cut and pasted it. Hope it makes it throught the filters.
Original Response:
I hope I’m not stepping out of line by responding to this, but I’m already a trouble maker so, what the hell….
I believe Adam is referring to a complex phenomenon brought about by the pervasiveness, and availability of the Internet. The ‘ads’ he refers to are implied.
By ranting about the recent argument over the current FWW chisel review, readers and ranters do loads of free advertising for the chisel makers, the author of the article and, of course, Taunton Press – just by talking about it. It’s called ‘word of mouth’ marketing, and KNOTS is filled to the gills with it.
We do it anyway, but on KNOTS the Taunton powers-that-be have the ability to edit US, the ranters. Sooooooooooo, you might get a slightly biased view of which chisel is the best, or you might be tricked into buying five sets of chisels just to prove another ranter wrong. WHO KNOWS? The possibilities are endless, and that’s the beauty (if you will) of ‘word of mouth’ marketing – the predictability factor of the potentially MILLIONS (or BILLIONS) of people caught up in the web, i.e., people are ‘easy to read.’ We’re predictable, and we continually fall for cheesy marketing scams, knowingly or not.
It’s absolutely fruitless to try to fight it. It IS the new economy, and you can’t exactly convince a few billion people that the new way is no good. Like it or not your life is pretty much ruled by it. You DID enter your credit card info to gain access to KNOTS, right? Oooooooooops!
Josh
BTW. Check out www.sethgodin.com – click on his head. He’s a ‘guru’ of sorts. He can be infuriating, but he’s usually right. Once you see the patterns (of commerce in the new economy,) you’ll understand what Adam is talking about.
Seth Godin has several books published, if you’re a book junkie like myself. In them he (subtly) refers to other marketing/management guru’s (of the new economy) such as Jim Collins, author of Good to Great, Built to Last, etc. His site is www.jimcollins.com
Replies
Josh ,
In regards to your comments in the other thread ,
No offense but when you make your personal situation public on an online forum you have pretty well given your privacy away , imo that leaves you little room to complain that your being mistreated when all we have to go by is the info you submitted which was not all that flattering to you .
Lets talk wood
regards dusty
Hi Dusty,
It is difficult to write in to these forums, and really give a sense of your personality - It's not like most of us go through the rigors of character development, etc, as would a novelist, or biographer. You (in general) read what I write in your own voice - my voice is lost in the process. A lot is 'lost in translation,' if you catch my drift.
I was not complaining, and I'm fully aware of the fact that writing to an open forum is putting oneself out there, and necessarily being open to criticism. I am fine with that. I will not dispute that. I embrace that. Is 'that' clear?
I'd like to remind the entire KNOTS community that:
1. I am feuding w/ one certain member (if I can call it a feud) because that member was one of two original responders to an inquiry I made in regards to my bandsaw. I was attempting to 'talk wood,' in a manner of speaking.
With no prior knowledge of my situation, no experience with the machine I was inquiring about, and without asking questions (which, if my post was unclear or vague, is what most people would do) to try to clarify the situation he simply - and with NO prompting from me - wrote back that I was the problem.
Here's my original post:
42628.1
Hello,
I've been on this forum before with questions about my Rikon !4" Deluxe bandsaw, and have gotten some good advice. I'm still having issues with the machine, though, and was wondering if there's anyone who might be able to answer a few more questions.
Background info: I've had the saw for approx. 2 years. In that time I've replaced the guide bearings five times. Rikon was helpful at first by providing free replacement bearings, upgraded bearings and advice. Recently, however, I've only been able to purchase new bearings ($25 a set) from their service dept. They've stopped replying to emails, and do not return phone messages unless they are VERY urgent. Bearings aside, I'm beginning to not like the machine for other reasons - the guides themselves are a pain, and I'm constantly adjusting them. There's a ton of slop in the adjusting mechanisms, and I cannot adjust the bottom guides to accept a 1/4" blade... they won't go back far enough for the side bearings to clear the teeth!
I've been looking at Laguna machines, and they've been looking better and better. The ceramic guides seem like the answer to lots of my problems. I've noticed that they sell guides that will retro-fit other machines. Does anyone know if they sell guides for Rikon machines?
Also, does anyone have thoughts on the Laguna guides? General thoughts, criticisms, praises, etc.? How about the machines? Are they as legendary as they are made out to be?
I'm asking these questions here before I approach Laguna because they have a very aggressive marketing and sales dept. I've requested info in the past and received a barrage of phone calls at all times of the day. I'd like to avoid that for now.
Thanks, Josh
Does that sound threatening, ignorant or provocative? I think it is a reasonable post - pretty clear as to what I'm asking for, and not, in any way, meant to offend, or elicit a mean-spirited response.
Here's the response that got me mad:
42628.3 in reply to 42628.1
You are doing something wrong if that is all the life you are getting out of the cheapest of bearings. I can't address the blade size as I am not familiar with that saw. If you have had to replace the bearings five times in two years you are the problem. How much side load are you putting on the bearings? Are you putting visible tracks on the blades?
I find this response to be quite offensive, and aggressive. There is no advice included in the response, no friendly, or inquisitive 'tone.' Anyone who's willing to be honest will admit that the tone of this response is accusatory, and questions are rhetorical - meaning they are meant to accuse me of not knowing what I'm doing, and he's quite straight forward about asserting his feelings in regards to that.
WHY DIDN'T HE RESPOND TO MY QUESTIONS? HE GAVE NO ADVICE! HE VIOLATED THE BASIC TENENT OF AN ONLINE FORUM, WHICH IS TO OFFER ADVICE, NOT BLATANT, UNFOUNDED CRITICISM!!! My only choice was to be offended.
Of course I may have lost something 'in translation,' but that's a risk we all take when posting to KNOTS (more so here than anywhere else I've posted!)
Interestingly, Don was wrong, and I diagnosed the problem myself, eventually. It had nothing to do with cheap bearings, lack of lubrication, side load or operator error.
I'm not 'here' to flatter myself. If you all want that, try joining a church group, or knitting club - you can count your virtues all day long. Real life is a gritty, rugged, grinding mess most of the time, and I don't care if you think I'm doing a pretty job of it.
Regards, Josh Whipkey
Edited 8/8/2008 11:31 am ET by Josh Whipkey
josh, heck man, we all have problems, and we all deal with them in different ways. eliminating alcohol and recreational drugs from your diet is definitely a very good step forward . . . . BUT what is the therapeutic benefit to you of what you are doing here? that's rhetorical and for your introspective reflection;ie, I'm not looking for an answer.
it would seem that you are getting agitated, and that can't be good for your overall journey; most likely it is serving as a distraction. restated, do you really care whether I or anyone else out here in cyberspace thinks? we cannot impact your life or head if you don't let us into them . . . . so suppress the visceral impulse to strike out at whomever piques your attention. focus on YOU, not us; we already know we are lost causes . . . . why else would we be here rather than the shop?
Amen! I don't know what's in the air, but this is the 2nd or 3rd thread in a week that's been a complete waste of cyberspace (IMHO). Oh, well.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Dear St. Patrick,
You are absolutely right. I know you said answers aren't necessary, but I just got back from the bank, and while I was driving was thinking exactly the same thing. I've overcome a lot in the past few years, and boasting, and bickering (and offending... being offended) here on KNOTS is pretty absurd, and antithetical to everything I wish to accomplish with my life.
I'm done arguing. I'd even like to offer an apology to everyone who's been unfortunate enough to have stumbled across my miserable rants.
Don, if you're reading, I'm sorry. I mean it, too. You were being you, and I took it the way I wanted to, and blew it out of proportion. I could just as easily have asked some questions of you rather than blowing up. I've been a jerk, no excuses....
Forestgirl, sorry for the wasted cyberspace.
My middle name (which I'll keep private) was passed down from my Irish ancestors, so I'll take St. Patrick's advice as a sign, and leave you all to your chats. I wish you all well, and again, I'm sorry for the waste of time, energy and space.
Regards, Josh Whipkey
Hey wait a minute Josh,
You don't gwet off that easy man. What was the resolution to your issue with the bandsaw!? Maybe I missed it but am curious to know.
:-)
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
josh, i was not saying to "go away", rather, i was saying "chill" and to keep it in perspective, don't take the bait, don't be too quick to take offense, etc, ie, take a deep breath and count to 10 . . . . then decide what to post, or even if to post.
as i said at the beginning of my post, we all have issues (demons) and we are on the same journey.
peace out
Nope, dude, we're on the same page. I just need a break.... Feeling burned out in the shop, and came here on line and promptly got myself burned out again...! I like the dialogues, and I love woodworking - can't wait for the new rags every month or two. I'm just feeling a bit responsible for pissing off a lot of people who've been doing the KNOTS thing for a while, and I have no right to do/have done that.
I don't mean to 'bow out,' or 'go away,' but I need to think about what I need from this place so i don't get so carried away. Thanks for your advice. I do appreciate it.
Maybe someday I'll be cool headed enough to offer some advice.
AND... The problem that started this all (the 'original' problem) was a bandsaw with wheels that were neither parallel, nor coplanar. I investigated all this after receiving a tip to check out a book by Mark Duginske (I think that's his name.) I later received an email in regards to a second post - one which generated almost no response - from someone who had the exact problem with his Rikon saw.
In short, the bottom wheel had so much wobble that even though the blade tracked properly, it moved forward and backward enough to put tons of stress on the thrust bearings, and would not allow for any proper adjustment for drift, lead, etc. The blade was pretty much all over the place, and it wore the bearings out. I'd have agreed with the lube issue, but it literaly couldn't have been an issue because there was not enough time in some cases for them to dry up.
Anyway, I had to shim the bottom wheel out to achieve coplanarity of wheels - not quite there, but the axle is too short for another washer. I just was informed that I should go through the steps a few more times, with a suggestion for how to check for wheel wobble, and maybe the bottom wheel can have a shim removed - every adjustment affects the alighment completely.
Also, the person who managed to correct his Rikon had to replace a warped wheel, and had a few other issues I have yet to check. My saw is running more smoothly, already, but I'm interested, now, in seeing how far I can go with it.
THAT'S what I've learned so far. So...... yes, there was some lack of experience and knowledge on my behalf, but I am working on it. Please bear with....
Later y'all - for a while, anyway,
Josh
"...after receiving a tip to check out a book by Mark Duginske...." Well, Josh, if you can remember how to spell his name after such a brief look-see, you're doing something right. I have to look it up every time I type it, and I'm usually pretty good with typed names!
Glad you're taking a deep breath and reassessing things. Life's too short for burning on that kind of energy.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
"Later y'all - for a while, anyway"
Why do all the fun guys leave??
Where's Bradbird been?
Interestingly, Don was wrong, and I diagnosed the problem myself, eventually. It had nothing to do with cheap bearings, lack of lubrication, side load or operator error.
I stopped reading the other thread early on... But I'm interested in finding out what was causing the issue.
Adam, in the rant thread you stated:
"KNOTS is private property. What you write is owned by Taunton. They can publish it without your consent, delete it from their property without your consent, and they can be held civilly or criminally liable for what we write as if a Taunton staffer wrote it."
Having been a civil trial lawyer in california for the last 29 years, i find i must disagree with your purported legal "opinion" about Taunton's potential liability exposure. You are, again, wrong.
Well, there are cases which support Adam's assertion. Several forums have been sued (and won) and or shut down by offended people (I don't mean their panties were in a wad) and, usually, by companies who feel their name and reputation has been damaged.
Users of forums have sued over content posted about them by others and at times the forum owners also named as they had prompting to take action and did not.
A good search of law cases will reveal a bunch. Heck, even what someone wrote in Wikipedia got Wiki sued.
Take care, Mike
Good morning Mike,
anyone can sue anyone for almost anything, but that is not the same as the defendant being liable. Point me in the direction of the cases you reference and i will reconsider my position, but me saying I think Adam is an idiot, or is pink, or is knothead, or is anything else is simply my OPINION, to which i am entitled, be it ill-informed or not.
Now, OTOH, if i make a FACTUAL assertion, such as calling someone a thief, or a whoremonger, or worse, then i had better be able to factually prove it or i will be liable for defamation (libel if written or slander if oral).
it would only be in the latter situation that potential liability on the part of a publisher could develop IF several things first occurred. generally, and at a minimum, they would have to have notice of what was there and that it was untrue, and none-the-less took a "i don't give a sheetz" attitude, and the other party was damaged. i could go on and on, but adam statement is flat out wrong . . . at least here in the great state of california.
postscript: how are my saws coming along?
Edited 8/8/2008 12:06 pm by stpatrick
Hi,
Well, being that you are or have been a lawyer, a goodly portion of the education was finding/looking up information...<g>
I of course have read the accounts in trade journals. While they did list case numbers for some of them (depending on the publication) I don't have them readily in front of me.
And yeppers. People can and have sued for nearly any reason. Always have and always will. In at least a few of the cases I read about, there were damages assigned to the forum owners in the wya of monetary assessment.
There is a current case where two plaintiffs from Yale are suiing 28 (currently) anon. posters and the forum and its admin for posts. The safe harbor for copyrighted material may or may not end up saving the forum et al. The owner, a law graduate himself, was in fact denied a job because of his involvement in this case.
Recently a California blogger lost two civil suits where SLAPP could not be used as a defense.
The first instance above is going to be a legal test as regards how liable are forum owners and admins. In that case, the admin was urged by the offended parties to remove the nasty posts and refused. So that may well work against him as the site has rules of propriety and that fact will be argued these rules were breached and he didn't remediate the problem in accordance with their own rules.
Which gets us back to FWW and Knots. I suspect a forum on must join in order to participate that has no rules of engagement is actually safer than one, like Knots, that does.
Shoot me an email about the saws if you would.
Take care, Mike
hastily typing in order to get back to work...
Edited 8/8/2008 12:57 pm by mwenz
"Well, being that you are or have been a lawyer, a goodly portion of the education was finding/looking up information...<g>"
Mike, as the french would say; touche'
as others would say, "well played, sir"
i'll email re the other. thanks
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled