http://www.woodworking-magazine.com/blog/New+Premium+Handplanes+From+Stanley+Works+.aspx
any comments?
maybe stanley is redeemming themselves
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Replies
Interesting...they look an awful lot like the LV planes. Not sure about the frog/body one piece thing. Price seems pretty good. WIll have to wait and see...
Chris
Dunno why they didn't just roll out their classic designs perhaps with a bit more reliable machining.
As somebody else mentioned - they look like the Lee Valley abominations.
You know, it takes a lot to win back good will. This seems rather several days late and several dollars short. If I needed these types of planes, those who long ago stepped up: Veritas, LN, old tool dealers, etc., would get my money.
Edited 8/27/2008 9:48 am ET by Samson
I agree. I posted a comment on Chris Schwarz' blog that I would be embarrassed to have the modern Stanley logo emblazoned on any tool in my shop other than a tape measure - an attitude largely shaped by their efforts at extreme low quality for the cheapest possible price, and off-shoring as much production as possible.
You posted too huh? I thought, as soon as I saw them, that they looked JUST like the Lee Valley planes. That's what I wrote. Maybe they work well, but they look kinda ugly. Two other comments I agree with-Stanley has to go a long way to win business from the already established players (and themselves i.e. their vintage models), and I don't know why they didn't just re-introduce their own classic designs made better. Yes, LN is already doing that, and they sure look nice, but I am sure Stanley could make the same quality as LN with slightly down-market materials (and a slightly down-market price).
Most nights are crystal clear, but tonight it's like he's stuck between stations.
Perhaps the over-possessiveness of Lee Valley's patent lawyers as discussed in the LV skew rabbet thread will actually be useful here - they can sue the pants off of Stanley for copying "look and feel" of their planes. That'd be a good thing - Stanley needs to be taught some severe lessons about going the cheapest route possible (in this case, copying the look of the LV products instead of coming up with something new).
Copying Lee Valley? The bench planes look a lot like Sargent to me in the shape of the sides.
The look of the new Stanley is similar to LV, but the style of the plane sole of the LV are similar to the antique Stanley Gage! I suppose if one is to dig deep enough, many of the "new" ideas of today may have been tried somewhere in the past.
I, for one, like the idea of Stanley re-entering this market. Most of everything posted about the planes is specualtion, outside of what Stanley has said. I really doubt if I would purchase one, as my tool coverage is more than sufficient as is, but I would like to get one in hand to see how it feels. I would also like to take the blade out to see how well it is bedded.
Anyhow, have a good one and if you (or anyone else) is considering a LN tool, better pull the trigger quickly: prices are set to rise shortly.
T.Z.
Stanley isn't doing this for $hits and giggles. Look for one of the current players to be out of the tool manufacturing business inside three years. I doubt Stanley will be satisfied for the tiny piece of the market remaining that isn't being served. Somebody's gonna have to go. Book it.
Yeah but who? I've been thinking about that too but I'm thinking LV and LN are set, though I would bet more on LN. Clifton? Most of the "custom" makers probably aren't going anywhere because those shopping for a new Stanley probably aren't the ones looking for a Sauer & Steiner.
Most nights are crystal clear, but tonight it's like he's stuck between stations.
I think LV would find it easier to quit making planes since they sell a whole lot of other stuff.
I'd much rather see LN weather this storm.
And based on Stanley's designs I have a feeling I know who it is they'd like to pick off first.
Edited 8/28/2008 4:31 pm ET by BossCrunk
Interesting theory re: the target. The market should be interesting over the next few years.
Most nights are crystal clear, but tonight it's like he's stuck between stations.
Boss, think long term. First Stanley introduces premium planes that look similar to Veritas. Then after a few years of taking market share away from Lee Valley, they buy out Lie-Nielsen and bring back the Bedrock line. Don't laugh people, it could be a possibility. Stanley Works is a huge conglomerate with billions in sales per year that is not going to take a small company in Maine that remanufactures a line of planes that they (Stanley) created and developed nearly a hundred years ago with a grain of salt. The employees of Stanley Works and the Stanley family are very proud people. Think about it.
I think the first casualties might be Anant, Kunz, and Groz, not to mention Stanley's inferior home center offerings. These planes are priced in this segment more or less. LN is premium, as is Clifton, and the boutiques. LV is is more in the sights and price point, but I'm guessing won't suffer too much.
Also, it remains to be seen whether Stanley will significantly expand the line. A jack, a smoother, a block, and a shoulder, while low hanging fruit, is not much of a full line.
Edited 8/28/2008 4:59 pm ET by Samson
Edited 8/28/2008 5:02 pm ET by Samson
When LN first got going, their 'full line' consisted of bench planes. Now, look at all the specialty planes they make, and make very well. Stanley would be wise to concentrate on quality in the beginning, and not try to 'tool up' their lines to accomodate all the different planes out there. Make those few starter planes very well, and win back the customers with a high quality tool like LN has been making since the inception. Then, expand into all those other tools they used to make, and make them better. With their huge pocket book, they could really do some serious damage to the current players in the plane business.
I feel that mvflaim (Chris) has a good feel for what probably will happen. Stanley could buy out LN without burping, and Tom could go fishing, skiing, or whatever the heck it is that he likes to do, for a couple of centuries straight on the dough $$$, and not need to worry about balancing factory expansion and quality control ever again.
Sounds like a Golden Parachute to me. We'll just have to wait and see.
Jeff
My point about the limited line was simply that a company like Veritas has a lot of planes in their line to spread revenues across. They are therefore less likely to be destroyed by even major share cuts into only their 4, 5, block, and shoulder units.
I hate Stanley's move personally. They have sucked and done nothing for us for 50 years. Indeed, there garbage products have probably driven folks away from handtools as many who bought a Stanley POS more than likely quickly became frustrated and assumed all planes were like that.
It will be a shame if those that stepped up for us when Stanley abandoned the field are now hurt by Stanley's "change of <sweet>heart." LV, LN, et al. built a market, and now Stanley wants to poach it after 50 years of producing crap.
You have to remember that not everyone can afford/justify the cost of higher end tools. Some people just want something to "work good enough" or they need a tool and they know they aren't likely to use it again. These people probably make up a huge majority of the market. You can't blame a company for capitalizing on that.
True, but the new line of planes is only a handful of dollars cheaper than the high-end tools you speak of (Veritas/Lie Neilson).Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Definitely not a full line. However, its as many planes as the average woodworker would ever need. Good call on which planes to re-release. My predictions for LN - there will be a flurry of buyers trying out the new Stanleys, but after a few months LN will reign supreme!Chris
First I've heard of it, but I applaud Stanley for getting back into the woodworking business!
I dunno. I kind of like their current stuff. I can use the plane as normal to work on plane figured wood and can retract the blade and use the sole like sandpaper for highly figured wood.
Chris @ www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
I am happy to see any new source for quality hand tools. However, if the tools are made in China, for instance, I will gladly pay more money for an American made tool (meaning Canadian, Mexican or US) Is there anyone else out there willing to pay more for products made locally (if the quality is there)?
Those LN handplanes are good examples of what Americans can do to produce quality at home. The same goes for the Veritas line. Let's make sure we support our home produced quality woodworking products! Thanks.
Awesome!
They don't look like LV to me, but like the work of a design major, fresh from university, throwing a slight change to the classic sidewall shape using his auto-cad 3-D modeling software - oh and a couple of ripped ideas from LN. I see a lot of CAD pictures in my line, and the resulting products never look that beefy in real life.My first plane was a brand spanking new Stanley #4. I spent hours making the sole flat, lapping the frog mating surfaces and hand machining the chip-breaker. I ended up getting a Hock blade for it when I realized the original blade could not stand up to yellow pine knots. I even made a knob and tote for it out of rosewood. I learned a lot about the handplane from that frustrating experience and was really turned off by all the hassle. I finally got the tool to do a decent job. Second plane? LN low angle smoother. The hours I spent on that tool were all working wood.So, no more Stanley made after WWII for me. My next new one will be a LN 604 1/2. It's better than the original.Besides, don't you think Stanley has forgotten a lot of what they knew? Now they'll have to re-learn it all, and then innovate on top of that. Did someone say the LN price was going up? Dang it! Any idea when?Huck
It just did!! Sorry for the bad news. 4 1/2 up $35 on the website.
I was going to answer Huckleberry's question on when prices of LN and LV would go up by saying "sooner rather than later, as they are comparatively under-priced when compared to prices of the latest Stanley models".
So I now wonder if they will build in suitable concavity or convexity in order to allow folk to flatten them rightouttathe box. The accountants would cost in a wastage factor as well, I believe, and the Chief Engineer would have to ensure that there actually is sufficient material on the sole to allow for ritual sole flattening. You always gets what you pays for. (;)Philip Marcou
I would note that LV has already served notice in the latest catalog forward that they will be introducing a new line of "premium" planes. It will be interesting to see what they come up with that is noticeably better than most of the current products!This is going to be fun to watch!! Regards,Ron
"I would note that LV has already served notice in the latest catalog forward that they will be introducing a new line of "premium" planes."
So now I know why Rob Lee has a museum which contains an example from most handplane makers around the world. (;)Philip Marcou
Yes, I'm willing to and DO buy American whenever possible! While I have a few post-war Stanleys my goto planes are LN.
Dick
I don't recall getting a $35 increase on my last paycheck... Funny how it goes, eh? I guess it's time to find a new job.
Derek
With the cost of material and fuel going up as they have been I am impressed that LN has held the old price for so long. It's been years since they raised it. I don't begrudge them the increase but I did order a plane just before it went into effect.
I understand companies needing to raise their prices. I would just like to see my wage go up as quickly as everything else. My boss should be watching the price of tools and adjust my pay accordingly. :)
Derek
Amen!
"My boss should be watching the price of tools and adjust my pay accordingly. :) "Tell your boss that he/she will get extra points, along with greater admiration and loyalty, if he/she does so in advance. ;-)
Derek,
Introduce the idea of an employee tool allowance. It is standard fare in good automotive and heavy diesel shops. . .Huck
That is a good idea. The fact that I am employed as a Power engineer may not work in my favor though.Derek
Hmm, don't know what that is exactly.Huck
A power engineer is a tradesman who deals with steam production. We are employed in power plants, processing plants, hospitals, etc. Any where there is a boiler to make steam for any purpose you will find a power engineer at the helm.
I work at a window factory, so maybe i could justify some ww tools. hmmm?
Derek
That's cool. Good luck with the boss!Huck
Just saw one in Appleton, WI for $325. Is that what you are seeing?Huck
I got the price of the LN 4 1/2 off the LN website.
Thanks Joel, I'll take a look.Huck
Woodcraft sill has the old LN prices. Think I am going to stop by on my way home and pick up the one I have been looking at.
I was in the market for some Stanley powerbore bits, but lo and behold this turns out to be another useful tool that Stanley decided not to produce any more. LV picked up the slack. Wonder if Stanley will reenter that market?
Or how about decent chisels? Maybe Stanley will make a new 750 line to pursue LN. Wood handled chisels with good steel is probably asking too much.
Stanley can pretty much claim to have only made modifications to their earlier designs, which if you think about it, is what Lie-Neilson did (not a swipe, I am the proud owner of 7 of Tom's planes). The description of the #4 sounds like they crossed an infill plane with a bevel up smoother. As I read it, the frog is part of the thicker main casting and looks to have a Norris style adjuster pretty much like an infill. Who knows, these may end up being really good tools.
Is it kind of tacky that Stanley abandoned the fine tool market and wants back in? Yea, but so what. It's business. I don't think it is any more tacky than Record copying all of Stanley's planes decades ago and marketing themselves as great tool innovators or all of the current near east tool manufacturers producing cheap Stanley knock offs. Personally, I'd hate to see LN or LV take a hit after having the guts to step out and risk reestablishing the fine tool market, but that's free enterprise. To survive those guys will have to find a way to answer the challenge of Stanley trying to get back in the game. I wish them luck and really good ideas.
I think that LV and LN market to those of us that want to use quality. The new stanley's may work better than anything they have prodused in the past 30 years or so, but I am sure that driving a cadilac is still better than a chevette. They both get you there, they both do the speed limit, but it feels much nicer to arrive in a caddy.
Those looking to make a good living off of WW aren't people who use only hand tools. They need to use a combo. Those who are having fun on their spare time and want a nice product to do it with will still favor LV and LN. That is the society we live in. If you are going to do it, buy the nicest tools, golf clubs, motor bike, fishing equipment, etc. possible, and then enjoy yourself. We all buy sh*tty products and then realize what we just did.
Derek
When I think about it, I am blaming Stanley for my own ignorance. Now I know better and enough to be able to judge their new line on it's merits. It's just business for sure.My next plane is still the LN 4 1/2!Huck
If they are making them in China, they can keep them.
Hi steve
do you know were they plan to sell these new planes? I emailed garrett wade tools,without a responce.I would like to try those block planes ,and rabbit planes. thanks mark.
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