Over the past year I noticed a few manufacturers starting to produce what they call “hobbyist” tablesaws. They look like cabinet style tablesaws but the notable differences include having less horsepower and having the trunion mounted to the table instead of the cabinet. The idea is that they offer a decent saw for someone who is your typical weekend warrior not needing 3HP and not wanting a contractor style saw.
Until this weekend, I had only seen the Delta and King Canada offering. Both looked pretty good, but the King offered more horespower (18/9) compared to the Delta (15/7.5) and the King had a superior finish (the Delta had considerable machine marks on the table). I had been told that General was also looking to release a new hobbyist saw as well. The rumor was that it would be more in keeping with the true cabinet saws (e.g. cabinet mounted hardware), but wouldn’t be available until the summer. Well, on Saturday I had my first look at the General International saw. In one word, it was disappointing. For starters, General claims that it has a 2HP motor. In looking at the amperage, it was listing at 11.5/5.7! How General can claim that a 5.7 amp motor at 230 can produce 2 horses is beyond me. By comparison, the King also claims to have 2 HP, but it offers 9 amps at 230. Delta was honest in assessing its horsepower at 1.5, but still offering more amps than General. The General also had a strange 3 pulley system where the motor drives an intemrediate pulley which then has a strange plastic/rubber belt driving the pulley which turns the blade. I’m guessing the 3 pulleys are used to produce a left tilt blade (King and Delta are right tilt). The dust collection was also a joke. Sawdust is diverted down a very resticted goosneck which then finds its way to a small 2″ opening. Delta and King had 4″ ports. Here’s the kicker – cost. These prices are in Canadian funds (in Vancouver):
King – $800, Delta – $900, General International – $1,150.
Has anyone had first hand experience with any of these saws? I don’t know if I’m missing something but at $1,150, I would expect a much better product from General.
As I’m in the market for a tablesaw, the King looks appealling. I’m just struggling with whether I want to buck up an extra $500 (including Duty) and go for the Grizzly. I’m not convinced the extra horsepower is worth the additional money, especially since I’ll likely purchase a high end bandsaw to do the majority of my ripping.
Replies
I bought a grizzley 10" left tilt with extention table and shjop fox fence. It was around $1200.00 and they had a special on shipping. It's been great for everything I do. Went together withou a problem except for splitter. I think I did't want to take the time to adjust it so I left and the guard off. I'm very carefull and do not do a great volume at one time which may make you tend to get careless.
I just ordered the Grizzly 1023slx. By the time I added mobile base and base extension it will be $1,300.00 delivered. I currently use a shopsmith, and trust me go for the HP no matter what brand you buy. I've never heard anyone complain that a saw had too much power! The 1023s without the extension is only $795 + shipping of $78.00. If you do get one of these new hobbyist machines let us know what it's like.
Bones,
What blade are you going to use on your Grizz?
You'll be very satisfied, mine runs trough 8/4 hard Maple or Oak, like a knife through butter. I do glue ups directly off the saw with no glue line showing.
Looking at the posts below, I really believe Delta lost their old quality and either they make major changes to their organization, or will be left in the dust.
Willie
I use Forrest blades on RAS, TS & Circ Saw(for ply cuts). I had never used a good blade, always opting for the cheap blade. My brother recommended the WW series. All I can say is WOW. Improved the performance of my shopsmith tremendously. It goes through wood like butter. I use the thin kerf with a stabilizer (except circ). I can't wait to get it on the Griz. My 1023 showed up damaged and another one's on the way.
Edited 8/9/2004 7:31 am ET by bones
Hey,
I am thinking on buying a Grizz tablesaw mod. 1023 in the 3hp range to replace the contractor saw I currently have. I am a little hung up on left tilt versus right tilt. What are some of the pros and cons? I guess what I am looking for is a little education on the subject.
patmac
Do you want to cut bevels with the blade facing away from the fence or towards it? I personally wanted it away so the waste side would not be towards the fence and a throwback issue. I bought the 1023slx 5 years ago and its a heck of a saw. You wont be dissapointed no matter what you decide. ...Advice is a form of nostalgia. Dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off , painting over the ugly parts, and recycling it for more than it’s worth – lyrics from the song wear sunscreen
patmac911,I bought the right tilt grizzly 1023 and am very happy with it. Some of the things about the right tilt include the crank for tilting the blade is on the left side...I can get booth hands on it. Also, I like the fact that the blade stays registered to the fence at a constant distance. Lastly, I like the dust port on the left side making it easy to change to another machine.On the con side, with the motor on the right side, I can't use that space for storage and access to the motor for dust is less convenient. When it comes to beveled cuts, personally, I don't like doing them either way. I don't buy the concept that it's safer to have a moving board on top of the saw blade rather than under it but, more importantly, tilting the blade requires you replace the zero clearance plate with one that has a much larger opening....consequently, cutoffs can get sucked down into the opening....and I don't like that. Where I can I use my tenon jig for beveled cuts.
Hi,
I can't answer your question, but it makes me ask how you can buy a Grizzly in Canada?
And do you know if Grizzly and King Canada are practically identical as I have been told?
Tool marks are minor in comparison to thin, webbed castings that warp, in my opinion.
I bought junk and found it is false economy, The hassle trying to do adjustments, and then finding they won,t stay, not being able to tilt the blade consistently, stiff controls, poor fences, cuts that are not smooth, vibration, noise.... so I bought a Unisaw and am well satisfied.
Ken
[kamloops]
Hi Ken,
I live 20 minutes from the U.S. border. Bellingham, which has one of the Grizzly plants, is only about an hour away. My first experience with Grizzly was at their tent sale in May - I had no problems bringing a jointer and planer across the border (but I was charged 14.5% duty).
I am not familiar with any of the three saws you mention. Are they similar to the so called "hybrid " saws produced by Dewalt and Jet?
Shaving price points has become all the rage among tool manufacturers in recent years. So we are now seeing a lot of inferior materials used in the guts of the tool, and inevitably, they well not hold up too well over time.
If there is any way you can scrape together the $$$ to get into one of the top of the line saws -- either cabinet or contractor type -- I would encourage you to do so. Not only well they perform better, but they hold their value very well, and are easy to sell whenever you want to get rid of them.
Hi Nikki,
No, these aren't hybrid saws like the Dewalt. I think they are probably best described as contractor cabinet saws. I haven't seen anything on the General or Delta site, but King has their saw at http://www.kingcanada.com
I agree that it's aslways wise to buy the best you can afford. However, we all have to pick our spots and for me it came down to whether I felt my bandsaw or tablesaw would be the 'centre of my universe' in the shop. Until recently I would have thought the tablesaw would win out. But after having taken a course at a local studio, I now want to put the money toward the bandsaw and handplanes. I haven't ruled out going with a 3HP Grizzly or Jet or even the 3HP King, but I simply can't make the Delta Unisaw or General 350 work within my budget ... without losing my wife :)
Ken, I don't know if the Grizzly and King come from the same plant. It wouldn't surprise me becuase their bandsaws look very similar (as does General International).
Nuff said ---- sounds like you have carefully thought through your priorities. And I think that's great.
Hi Joelc
What model General are you talking about?
I have the 50-185 (left-tilt), which retailed for about $650us here in L.A. I'm very happy with it after 8 months.
It was a bear to assemble: Instructions that came with it were for the right-tilt model (hold up a mirror!); some of the mounting hardware was metric, some imperial; some of the nuts and bolts were missing, while there were dozens of others left over ...
Now that it is set up, though, it works great. It has not gone out of square since the initial setup, even after tilting the blade over to 45 deg and back many times.
The supplied dust collection insert has a 4" opening. I made a foam-core insert to help close off the motor side of the cabinet, and I duct-taped most of the open seams around the stand/cabinet. Result is relatively little sawdust is on the floor after hours of cutting, including dadoes.
Hope this helps,
Tom
Hey Tom,
I'm not sure of the model number as I didn't check it. I also don't see this saw on the General site. If you purchased your saw some time ago, I doubt they're the same as General just released this saw in the summer.
What is the amperage of your saw? I don't recall seeing the 50-185. Is it a cabinet style tablesaw?
Hi Joelc
check out this page. my saw is fourth in the list of tablesaws. 50-175 is right-tilt, 50-185 is left tilt.
http://www.general.ca/english/main.html
Tom
General International is an offshore cabinet saw. Made in China, maybe taiwan. Dont confuse it with the Generals that are made in Canada, which carry only the General Name. The General made in Canada is top notch, Along with a Powermatic in terms of Quality and some older Delta Unisaws prior to the factory moving offshore.
Buy what can be serviced in your area, a great deal on a saw that cant be serviced w/o selling your children isnt a great deal at all.
There has been talk about king and grizzly being made in the same factory, only going to a different paint booth and out the other door. The factory probably just makes the specs as per the labels contract requirement.
Do a search on saws and you'll find a wealth of topics, next to jointers and bandsaws, tablesaw questions probably rank in the top 2 of asked questions in both weekly and monthly askings on this forum.
Hi WmP,
Yes, I realize that General is a top notch product and I haven't mistaken the two. My question is related to the line of hobbyist saws and whether people have had a chance to use them directly and offer first hand experience.
From what I understand, they are a new item in the market with General International just releasing its model. As far as offshore products go, General Inetrnational seems to have a very good offerings which is why I was surprised to see the new hobbist saw come in around 40% more expensive than King yet seemingly offer substantially less. I hope this isn't a case of a known name brand boosting its prices because of reputation instead of quality.
I suspect you are right about Grizzly and King as many of their products look very similar.
I have recently rented space in professional shop where we have a monster 5hp table saw with sliding table and a King contractors saw. The 5hp will go thru 3in maple without batting an eyelid whereas the King ( I am not sure of the hp but it is probabally in the 2hp range struggles with 2in material with a new blade.
My gut would tell me to get the most horses you can get. I must admit the big saw is somewhat intimidating and you need to show it a lot of respect. The fellow who owns the shop was cutting maple for a set of kitchen cabinets and I guess was tired at the end of the day when he had a catch. The resulting bruise on his chest was something to behold. He was lucky it did not get him in the face. So you have to be especially careful with the bigger machines, but I think they are worth it if you are cutting larger dimension lumber.
Anyway that is my take from a relative newbie. I will be interested in your final decision. What is your take on left and right tilting blades?
Cheers, MrH
Hi MrH,
I 'grew up' learning on a General 3HP cabinet saw which was a left tilt. I currently have an older Craftsman contractor style, also a left tilt. I definitely prefer left tilt because it is familar to me, tilts away from the fence and there is less chance of a nasty bounce back should wood get wedged against the fence.
Hi Joelc,
It looks as if your question generated a lot of comment. I will be interested to know what you end up purchasing. I am still interested in the question of "if left tilt is inherently safer why do we still make right tilt saws. As you say it probabally comes down to what you grow up with and are comfortable with.
Good luck with your decision,
Cheers, MrH
Joelc,
They are not really new. I have had a Jet version of this for about nine years now. Mine is 2 hp, but about 4 or 5 years ago they downgraded it to 1-3/4 hp. It uses two belts rather than three that the cabinet saws use. The trunnion is mounted to the table top wich makes blade alignment difficult just like a contractors saw. Its not a bad saw, definately a step up from a contractors saw, especially for dust collection, but still significantly less than a true cabinet saw. It is a purchase that I regret, I wouldnt buy it again. Save a couple of extra months and get the General 350. Mine will be replaced as soon as I find a good deal on a used one. I would prefer an old Oliver or similar but my shop is on the second floor and 2000 lb is just too much. Probably replace it with a vintage General or Powermatic 12" when one shows up.
Brian
The dealer obviosly did not do a good job explaing the many differences and advantages of the General International hybdrid saws, I would gladly do over these with you if you contact me , David
patmac:
I have the Grizz. 0690 and I'm very happy with it. Mine is a left tilt because I'm more comfortable, as others have stated, with the waste on the left keeping my good cut against the fence. I realize you can move the fence over, however being right handed I have better control of the primary piece of wood.
I think you'll like the saw. Set up was pretty straight forward, the saw is relatively quiet and it passed the nickel test. The only thing I don't see on the 1023 is a riving knife, I would prefer to have one.
Good luck with your purchase, Jim
Edited 11/24/2009 12:42 am ET by James R.
Thanks, Im going to order the saw right after the holidays. I understand that the knife can be ordered sep. if so I will order it with the saw.
Interesting that the knife can be added. Did you call to find that out, or is the info on their web site and I just have not found that? I need to get out of my Delta Hybrid and I owe 4 other grizz products and could not be more satisfied.
Morgan <!----><!----><!---->
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I live about 2 hours from the Muncy PA store. I asked the salesman at the store and he told me you could buy the knife thru parts and it would go right on.
Pat
MrH,
A 1 hp saw can do just as much damage to the human body as a 5 hp machine will do, like they say size doesn't matter.
Taigert
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