Hi All:
For me, the highlight of the Lie-Nielsen Handtool Event this past weekend in Kennesaw, GA was getting to try out the new precision stainless steel plane by Ron Brese. http://www.breseplane.com/page05.html What an unbelieveable tool. I hooked my index finger around the front knob and pulled the plane the length of a scrap of hardwood. The plane took a full length, full width ultra thin shimmering shaving and left behind a flawless surface in its wake. This is the plane I will be measuring all others by. I’ve given you a link to Ron’s website so you can see the plane, but a picture just doesn’t show you what it can do. If you can make future Lie-Nielsen Handtool Events do so. Just seeing Ron’s plane in action will be worth your time.
gdblake
Replies
WIA
I've used one of his planes a couple of years ago at the Woodworking In America Conference. I can't believe a plane can perform that well. It was simply a joy to use. If I ever make it big, I'll buy one.
GD,
How does Breese's plane compare to the Holteys? and to the Marcous'?
I re-read Lyn Mangiamelli's great review of smoothers and his tests, which were quite objective, really favor a plane by Steven Thomas.
I wish he had also tested Breese', Phillip's and Holtey's.
I did read Chris Schwartz's great handplane "shootout" which was attended by many of the woodworking and tool "greats", which included many very high end planes. He concluded that Krenov's hand made plane was good enough.
I am SO CONFUSED. What should I do? Do I have to buy them all to find out?
Maybe I should. I will talk to my wife about that.
Have fun.
Mel
PS, If you haven't read Mangiamelli's review, and Chris's review, let me know and I'll send you the references. They really are a great read.
PPS - as you know, my thinking about any plane that costs more than $500 is not a woodworking tool, but rather a very nice "collectable". It does for a woodworker, what a nice Lamborghini does for a car enthusiast. It lets him know that he has been successful in life.
PPPS - My goal is still to make furniture as great as that of the Goddards and the Townsends. I will need tools that were at least as good as the ones they had. I will also need their ability to design and to execute.
I don't know why anyone would put a price condition on a plane and say it's not for woodworking above that level. I can't imagine that too many planes outperform holtey's planes, and quite a few of the people who have them use them a lot. If it wouldn't be grounds for instant divorce in my household, I probably would have a few "store bought" infills for regular work.
I think I have one plane above that price, but it was a kit, and barely above. We'll see how it turns out, as I'm building it right now.
As far as infills go, though, it may be that you can get an adjustable iron plane to do whatever they do if you fiddle with them. The beauty of a good infill with a fine mouth and a heavy iron is that there is no fiddling, all of the varables are "fixed" and nothing gets out of adjustment or needs to be set. You put the iron in, you set it for depth, and you plane. If you accidentally plane against the grain, there will be no fretting, there is no tearout. If you have very hard dense wood with reversing grain or knots, no issue, but the same can't be said about that circumstance for most bench planes, and especially not a krenov plane. A krenov plane in cocobolo or figured hard maple is an exercise in elbow fatigue and chattering teeth.
If cost is an issue, a very very good infill smoother can be built from new materials (i.e., no scrounging for old stuff or trying to make an OK plane with a mish mash of scraps) for about $300 - and that includes a billet of dry exotic wood and a "store bought" lever cap.
I attached a picture of my second one, about $300 worth of stuff - exactly - and probably somewhere between 50 and 75 hours (very very enjoyable hours compared to most woodworking projects). It's not exactly pretty by infill planemaker's standards, but it is extremely functional, and I couldn't begrudge anyone who is willing to dish out the cash to have someone else make one. It is a whole other ballgame in terms of performance and ease of use.
Apologies to anyone else who has already seen these posted on another forum.
Not much of a coincidence, btw, why the lever cap and iron look like something that ron brese would make - I got them from him. I made the lever cap on my first plane and bought an iron from ron hock, but Ron's prices are so reasonable on the iron and chipbreaker that it seemed goofy to make them when I was sort of "in a rush" to have my own and the monetary savings aren't really there doing it like they are on the rest of the plane. I just wanted control over bed angle, sole thickness and size of the mouth (it grew to about .004" by the time I was done filing)
I probably have a lot fewer tools than most on here - I used a belt sander and a hand drill in making this one, everything else was manual with files, (cheap) rasps and a home depot hacksaw.
At any rate, infills are definitely a "don't knock it until you've tried it" camp. I thought they were high-priced hooey until a friend of mine went to saratoga springs and tried one or Ron's smoothers and said "you need to try one, they are a whole different world". I have plenty of LN planes - they are superb planes, but they are not as pleasant or comfortable to use as this smoother, and dare I say it - not as easy to use, either. Someday, I'm going to get my fingers on one of Ron's, Karls, Konrads, ...any of those guys. Until then, even a piker's effort like this takes away the cringe when I hear the prices of infills - they are not just collector's items.
David,
Your plane is BEAUTIFUL. I'll take your word for it that it cuts beautifully. Congratulations.
The nice thing about woodworking is that everyone gets to have their own opinions. No one is wrong. We are all correct (or approximately :-) Great discussions.
Remember my point about the Goddards and Townsends? My point is that their furniture was and is among the best ever designed and made (IMHO). Their tools were not nearly as good at the current LNs and LVs. So my point is that the differences among planes are IRRELEVANT, if you can't use them to make furniture which is "better" than you made with a lesser tool.
Most people cant tell the difference between a piece of furniture that was made with hand tools and one made with machine tools. Nowadays, many use both. So make a piece and use some nice LNs and LVs to work on part of it and use your gorgeous infill on the other part. My guess is that no one but you will ever be able to tell the difference. If they could tell the difference, my guess is that the difference would not be great enough for others to make the piece be considered a significantly better piece of furniture.
One can take this point to its natural end. The most important part of the making of a great piece of furniture is its design. A close second is its execution. Maybe they are "even". To me, "better tools" let you execute designs which couldn't be executed by previous tools, or they make the job more efficient. I believe you are focussing on "efficiency" of a tool, and its pleasantness to use. That's nice, but there is a "law of diminishing returns". Suppose Holtey comes out with the best plane ever made, and the cost is $1.2Million. Would it be worth it?
To me, a GREAT woodworker is one who can design and make masterpieces using someone else's tools.
Of course, my opinions are not widely held. When I go to another woodworker's home, the last place I want to see is his shop. I want to see what he designs and makes. I want to hear how he came up with his designs, and why he used certain joints in certain circumstances. I want to know more about his choices of wood. My strange belief is that tools are merely "a means of getting work done". If you don't have one that you would like to use, make do with another one.
But my opinions and $4 will get you a coffee at Starbucks.
Don't get me wrong. I LOVE TOOLS, and I LOVE TO GET THE SKILLS TO USE THEM. One without the other is worthless. WHen I see a woodworker use mostly tools from the old days to turn out a masterpiece, I am thrilled.
WHen I think of what I need to do to be able to make furniture like the Goddards, the last thing I think about is improving my set of hand planes. There are other things that I need to work on more. My getting more tools and more expensive tools to achieve that goal would be like my tryng to get to the moon by climbing a tall tree. I could get closer and closer for a while, but I couldn't make it.
But this is all VERY SUBJECTIVE. There are many who are not interested in doing those things that will allow them to become better furniture designers/makers. THey are interested in making tools, in owning tools, and some even use those tools. Some dream often of the newest tools and future tools. Nothing wrong with that. It is good to have dreams. I dream of being able to design and make better furniture. I have a long long way to go.
When I read the writings of people (living) who make furniture that I consider great, I almost never hear them talk about tools. I wonder why that is. When I hear people talk about the best new tools, they tend to be older richer males who are hobbyists. Nothing wrong with that. When I visit the shops of woodworkers that I consider to be very good, I never see boutique (expensive) planes. I wonder why that is?????????
Variety is the spice of life. Your ideas are far more widely held here on Knots than mine are.
Have fun. I enjoyed your post. It made me think. (and that is important). If my post caused you to think, (and to enjoy the process of thinking) that is a good thing. Sometimes Democrats and Republicans don't like to hear each others' ideas. Those who only like to hear their own ideas have very small minds. Same is true with woodworkers.
Mel
Thanks for the compliments. I assure you there are cosmetics on it that a person buying a plane wouldn't tolerate, but when you build your own tools, you don't have to fiddle with that stuff.
I bounce back and forth between adhering to "a plane must make better results" (or chisel, or spokeshave, or whatever it is) to be justified as a purchase, and to "it must maximize my enjoyment in the shop".
I've settled on the latter - part of that for me is a tool that creates superior results but doesn't hassle me to do it, and if I can build it, all the better. If I could get away with buying some of them, I would do that, too, but I've run my wife's patience out on that front. Infills fit in this category. It may be that you could get similar results with planes made of plywood (I think I could do that, actually), and certainly with an LN, but the joy in use just isn't the same as being able to take a plane out every time without thinking about anything, and plane with or against the grain and see no tearout. That maximizes my enjoyment.
The first plane I built is an ugly little square plane, it was suggested by someone else to do that to minimize the physical work in making one and learn to get the feel for working with metal and wood. It still works extremely well, but it looks like a cheap kitchen knife because I didn't know some things about how to orient the wood in it, etc. it's ugly.
I don't get too jacked up about other peoples' woodworking unless I see something I want to do myself. In that respect, you're probably more like the average user than I am, even if not so on the tooling. If someone wants to show me their shop, so be it, but I generally am looking for things I can make use of if I'm in their shop, and not so interested in the social side of "sharing shop". Mine is an absolute mess, I don't care to do more organizing or cleaning than I absolutely have to. I get a lot of "i can't believe you can work in this" comments, etc.
We are all doing this for ourselves. Even most of or friends have no clue what we're doing, even if they've seen our shop, and they likely consider us crazy when we pay more for lumber in a piece than they'd pay for the entire thing. BTDT several times.
It's a hobby. Folks have to decide what they want out of it. For some, that's a contest of trying to imitate masters with only a toolbox full of tools. For others, that's playing with tools and really never making much, and for others yet, that's cutting yard ducks out with a sears bandsaw and painting them with a can of spray paint and some stencils. As long as you're doing what you want to do in your shop, enjoying what you're doing, it's hard for me to say anything in one direction is right or wrong. Most of us don't have to try to sell what we do, so the constraints and things that make woodworking a job for the pros - we can just ignore. The judgements of accomplished woodworkers who do things differently than we do, we can ignore those, also. If I decide I no longer like to do it (woodworking) and would rather go back to sitting in the living room playing guitar, i'd sell my stuff tomorrow - no big deal. I don't think there's a lot of chance of that, though.
It only gets slippery when people want a one-line answer for every question. "what should I get?". "what should I build?". "what's the best way to learn this?".
To me, the best answer for that is "whatever you want, whatever you most want to build, and whatever way makes you the most satisfied and gratified".
(I sure am glad there enthusiasts out there from the scrap bin krenov plane makers to Karl Holtey - just gives me a bigger menu of ideas to maximize enjoyment of shop time).
David,
I like the way you think. I like your values. They are a bit different than mine, but what the heck. That's fun. My approach to acquiring tools is much more like that of the professional fine furniture makers than to that of most hobbyists at Knots. But most of my friends are hobbyists, like myself.
I learn a great deal about tool use in this part of Knots. I worked all with power tools and watched a lot of Norm for thirty years, and then started moving to adding hand tools. It makes things a bit more precise, a bit more fun and a bit safer. It takes me a longer time to make a big mistake with a hand tool than with a power tool.
Today I am making my first set of lipped drawers with half lap dovetails on the front. EEEHHHAAAAA! And mostly with hand tools. This is VERY CHALLENGING for me. Others around here do it in their sleep.
I have enjoyed making your acquaintance, and hope we converse many times in the future. If you ever get to Northern Virginia, I hope you stop over to my place. We'll do a babeque and swap furniture stories - skills, designs and tools.
Have fun.
Mel
PS I admire Ron Breese's planes, just like I admire Phillip's and Holtey's.
Thanks for the compliments. I assure you there are cosmetics on it that a person buying a plane wouldn't tolerate, but when you build your own tools, you don't have to fiddle with that stuff.
Sir, I really doubt your statement.. "but when you build your own tools, you don't have to fiddle with that stuff." I'd bet they still fit your standards and were beautiful tools".. Your statement make no sense.. I would think that NO tool you ever made.. ever left your shop without having THAT special touch.. "there are cosmetics on it that a person buying a plane wouldn't tolerate".. I would say you just make it that way, anyway and you thought to say it to say that way!
I can't tell if you're disagreeing just to disagree, but there is no issue on any of my planes that I "just made that way" and thought to "say it that way" afterward.
I spend my time around the bed, the tote, the mouth, the fit of the infills and the lever cap fit. To make a perfectly tidy plane out of steel with only hand tools, those things mentioned take time, but not like the time it takes to make noncritical parts look perfect the way a master machinist's and planemaker's (ron brese, philip, karl holtey) parts would look.
That is a conscious decision while making the plane, to not spend the time doing that. were I actually making a plane for someone else, I would spend the 10 or 15 (or more) extra hours that it would take for me to be more anal retentive about protecting the metal and making all visual surfaces proper, and getting more into making sure every pin and secondary bevel is aesthetically perfect so that if the plane moves at all over time, all of the joined metal lines look perfect. No plane leaves my shop, not one I've made at least, so the commentary about a special touch on something that leaves my shop has no application here.
You can disagree with that, and walk along disagreeing with everyone else in this thread playing conspiracy theorist or dinner theater CLUE guest, but I don't see what you think anyone gains from that. You're certainly way off on your comments about my post.
I'll make you a deal, Mel. You buy one of each (assuming the wife approves, of course), and I'll test them for you. ;-)
Ralph,
I have always recognized your genius. You are able to get to the nub of an issue in an instant, and you can see deeply into the souls of men.
As soon as my wife lets me buy all of those planes, you are invited over for a barbeque and we'll also make a nice Chppendale tall case clock and an Art Nouveau sideboard, and in the evening we can also make a few Greene and Greene pieces. Those planes will really increase out efficiency.
Have fun.
Mel
deal!
I'll bring roadrunners for the BBQ. I'm sure you've heard of "beer chicken", where the chicken is barbequed, standing up with an open can of beer in the, uh, cavity? We do the same in New Mexico with roadrunners and tequila, but have to use the little mini-bottles like they serve on airlines.
Of course, it's a deal
Ralph,
My wife has been talking about going to New Mexico. We may get there before you get here. Nothing specific in the plans yet. Who knows? Since our second kid went to UNM, we developed a real liking for your State. I definitely have to go back to the Church St. Cafe in Albuquerque.
Have fun.
Mel
Some Things Never Change
WOW Mel! I've been away for a year, maybe year and a half and you are still crapping down people's throats when they try to mention an exceptional tool at a fair price. Seems like you have taken this on as a retirement project.
8 years at knots next week and I still only have 1 person on my ignore list. Guess who???
Lee
8 years at knots next week and I still only have 1 person on my ignore list. Guess who???
Me as in Will George? Not sure it is Mel because you responded to him. Mel is very much like my long passed on wife.. She hardly ever spoke. But when she had something to say, We all listened... Carefully!
Off the road for a while
I would really be glad for everyone to have an opportunity to have a go with my planes, however I'm off the road for a while and back in the shop making planes for the good people that have ordered tools from me. I will however be at the Woodworking in America Conference being held in Cincinnati in October. Hopefully at that show I will be debuting two new additions to this new stainless steel line of planes along with a production version of this panel plane and infill planes as well.
When participating in these events we don't shy away from bringing very hard to plane woods to use for demoing these planes. At the recent L-N Hand Tool event in Atlanta my demo pieces were a very heavily figured piece of curly maple and a piece of curly cherry that had a quarter sawn surface with the face of the curl coming thru that edge. For many these are the type pieces that yield the most problems when planing.
A big aspect of these hand tool events is education. Many people commented this past weekend that they were under the impression that one needed tools set up at steep effective cutting angles to achieve nice surfaces on these hard to plane woods. We show that when one uses a tool with a sharp iron, an adequately tight mouth and has these features in a tool with nice mass in which are the parts fit together rather precisely........ the wood fibers have no choice but to shear and curl up.
In other words, nothing moves within the confines of the plane body but the shaving.
Thanks for the kind words about my planes,
Ron Brese
gd,
"...the plane i will be
gd,
"...the plane i will be measuring all others by."
you're scaring me. not six months ago and you had me talked into the finck do-it-yourself plane making method. you even went so far as to post your first success/attempt. now you are extolling the vast virtues of something i cannot nearly achieve to, let alone afford AND i have finally, after some serious scouring about, located and gotten my hands on, all the necessary doo-dads and tools to get things done. brese plane indeed!
still looking for a nice chunk of wood...
eef
Eef, I'm still an advocate of making your own
Eef:
I will continue making planes using the Krenov method and encouraging others to do so. My better efforts perform extremely well. Attendees that stopped by my demonstration at the Handtool Event were surprised at just how well a Krenov plane works. I have a couple that I can use to plane wood with "naughty figure" that switches back and forth in waves. The board I demonstrated on at the Handtool Event was a nasty piece of narl which became beautiful under my European style panel plane. Even if you only make a few, I believe a woodworker learns a lot about designing and tuning a plane to maximize performance in the process. The experience will aid you in selecting from the planes that are out there on the market. Plus for very little money you can make a plane that will out perform vintage Stanley's and the cheaper clones.
Ron Brese's planes perform at a level that is beyond my reach. Mel, no I haven't gotten to sample a plane from every other maker out there. To date the Brese precision stainless steel panel plane is the best performing plane I have had the pleasure to try out, hence it is now the baseline by which I will compare future planes that come my way.
gdblake
taken for the website:
J.L. SBP KIT
Beta kit for Shooting Board Plane for J.L. Price: $795.00
ok... to mee, that's a LOOOOT of money for 1 hand tool. it may be the very best quality, but it's the very highest in price,as well.. there are no free rides, you get what you pay for( for the most part). However, not too many cabinetmakers that I'm aware of, who do this for a living, have anywhere near this quality handtool in their shops. not a one. Why? price vs. return...and with todays' economy, only the wealthy, or very successful cabinetmaker can afford that outlaying of cold hard cash. I know that I personally don't use enough hand planes to justify the 20 doolar flea market Stanley #5, yet alone one costing as much as my table saw....there does come a point where $$ vs satisfaction ends, and reality takes over. Just like Festools, Custom made hand tools are for those who can justify the expense, or don't need to, financially. And most woodworkers are not amongst that list....
In addition to Ron's message I hasten to add at this late stage that I will also be at the Woodworking In America show , along with customers toting one or more of my planes: so should any "difficult" timbers fail to respond to to a Brese plane the final solution in the form of a formidable array of Marcou Planes awaits them......☺
Holy Cow! Philip Marcou makes landfall in the USA?
Boy I'm really pissed I won't make that show now. I just talked to Ron on the phone the other day and told him how much good woodworking stuff I missed out on being stuck in BFE Mississippi.
We'd have half of the Hell's Planers together in one place for a reunion!
Philip I have had a computer crash and lost all of my email addresses, no excuse for not being in touch for almost a year. Hope things are going well for you and your business. If you can access me through the site here drop me a line.
take care,
Lee
Yep, these computer crashes can be scary, I believe, hence the use of an external hard drive thingy on mine. Lee, drop me a line on [email protected] to re-establish comms-i'm danged if I can see how to send private messages on The New Format Knots.
So Philip, If we're planning on coming to the Cinci WIA should we bring along our Marcou planes?
Neil
Marcou planes
Neil,
By all means bring along your planes, as there are others who are doing the same and it might be interesting to compare them. At this stage I'm not sure what if any I will have to sell, but I will have a fair number of minis, some of which will be in cases. At the moment I am trying to make stock as well as fufill orders. I am looking forward to meeting existing customers and other plane makers.
Missionary Position
Philip,
I will glady aid you in your mission to the plane-unenlightened backwaters but, as you know, I yam a pensioner now and in need of comforts at all times. I have noticed that First Clarss air travel involves the use of a reclining couch not to mention attentive plying of exotic grogs by a winsome lass in a uniform. Such a comfortable missionary position during travel is really a necessity therefore I must ask you to purchase the appropriate first clarss aeroplane ticket for me. Naturally, the same consideration applies to the 5-star hotel you will be booking near to The Mission.......
Should I bring just one example of each Marcou plane type or all 307 of the herd? In all events, I hope you have a polishing-slave in attendance as I rarely get the chance to wipe off the sweat-drips, resins and dust that accumulate. I know you will want to present The Revelations before the wondering and awestruck hordes with the best possible gleam-state.
Lataxe, who would probably never clear Customs in fact.
Lataxe, my peripatetic friend,
Should Mr M's accomodations not be forthcoming and you must needs ride a peddleboat 'cross the big water, just know that you have a place in old Virginny to lay your head when you arrive on our shores. And we have just the thing hereabouts, to restore the shine on those nasty sweat corroded shiney bits on phil's babies, and perhaps put a gleam in yer eye as well:
http://www.blueridgeinstitute.org/moonshine/index.html
Ray
"... and perhaps put a gleam
"... and perhaps put a gleam in yer eye as well"
More likely a beam I'd say. He's already cock-eyed surely, so that hooch will probably just about finish him off. Slainte.
Richard,
"that hooch will
Richard,
"that hooch will probably just about finish him off"
Sounds as if you just might have had a chance to sample a wee dram (or 6) of our stateside poteen. It will, as we say, "flat slap yore hat in the crick (creek)" if you get to free with it.
Cheers,
Ray
Shocking Liberal Behaviours
Ray, old hoochswigger,
Has hedonism become so far advanced amongst the population that even the most outrageous deviations are now practiced willy-nilly!? I have never laid any of my parts on an old virgin, not least because there is no such thing around here. What will the old virgin require in response to her generous comforts I wonder? As we know only too well, everything in America is a commodity these days so there will shurely be an outrageous price to be paid.
Is this why one needs to sup at the moonshine - to dull the shocking novelty of the procedures with the elder person? It is all too risque for an innocent village lad such as myself.
*****
Now, I notice that Richard has made a dig, which is very unwise of him as he only lives over the hill from here. However, I will admit to cock-eyedness, since I always keep at least one cocked so it is primed and ready to spot the many fools and charlatans that litter the population these days. Richard will be relieved to know that I have cocked an eye at him and judged him to be without charlatan aspects, although he is undeniably foolish since he is a Scotsman yet abides in Yotkshire, where they won't be able to understand a word he says.
****
Now, get yourself dressed as a proper woodworker ( broon apron, flat cap and tweed trousers) so you can go over to that show-thang where Philip will be showing his wares. You can give him a cuddle from me and buy a plane at the same time! It will be a lovely day out. especially if you go on the Injun and give him a ride on it.
Lataxe, currently sporting sore fingertips from guitaring and cutting stained glass.
Lataxe old buddy. I simply hadn't had a wee poke at you for many months-- I thought it was time to do so. Having a wee poke was an easy way to try and get back into the swing of things here at Knots.
It's not been the same place at all since the changeover late last year-- so little banter and wisecracking nowadays, and the software seems kind of clunky with it taking ages to open a thread or otherwise negotiate about the place.
But after more than ten years participating in various Knots forum formats I'm not yet ready to give up on the place, ha, ha. The current forum format or style is, incidentally, my least favourite of all the formats I've seen used to host Knots. Slainte.
Ray..
Thanks for the link.. I especially liked 'Sipping in the Blue Ridge'..
My old Army buddy, from Tennessee, use to make some of that “fruit liquor” made with Figs! I have been known to tip a few clay jugs of that stuff!
For fun reading: http://www.coppermoonshinestills.com/id28.html
He made White and Yellow whitelightning...
Maybe the yellow was made with 'carpenters herb'.. Fitting for in Knots? See: http://www.paghat.com/yarrow.html
Copied from the link above:
"Day by day through the dust & heat have we thirsted;
Day by day through stony ways have we hungered;
Naught but a few bitter herbs that grew by the wayside."
And I guess I still love that old song by Texd Ridder...
Rye Whiski we can no longer view... What a shame!
Anyway, your link made much fun for this old man... One link lead to another!
I have to add that he still lived in a very old house (shack) that he grew up in with his sisters.. He was the baby boy and had five older sisters to guide him in life.. He had plenty of money to move/live elsewhere but chose to live and die in the family home...
I miss him and his Fig brew....
Will,
You are a ring-tailed wonder!
Y'all sure know your way round the internet.
Ever see a documentary on PBS about a moonshiner called Hamper Mc Bee?
"Rye whiskey, rye whiskey, rye whiskey I cry,
If a tree don't fall on me, I'll live til I die."
Ray
Invitation
Philip,
Glad to hear you are coming to the Colonies. Will you be coming by Washington, DC in your travels here. I live just a few miles away in Virginia. My wife and I would be happy to have you stay here for a few days. Since the kids went off on their own, we have plenty of room, and the food is good. I could set up a time for you to meet the Washington Woodworkers Guild. Ray Pine doesn't live far away. Sean (Samson) doesn't live far away. I am sure we could get some good woodworkers to come over for a barbecue. Let me know if you are interested.
Mel
Exhibitors
I missed your name on the exhibitors list, shame on me. Now I definately have to convince the wife to make a weekend trip to the show, 400 mile trip. Just a hop skip & jump compared to your travel.
Everything's a smoother.
Welcome back
Charles,
"Everything's a smoother".
Have you ever tried an electric power plane?
Very fast, but you gotta be good to get a smooth finish. :-)
You ought to bring back Boss Crunk or develop a newer version.
Have fun.
Mel
Your point is well taken, smoothers do get too much focus
Charles:
You make a valid point. I should have said Ron Brese's plane is now my baseline for judging smoothers. I'd like to have a fore plane that performs as well. Most of the hardwood that comes my way is rough sawn. Without my scrub, fore and jointer planes I couldn't build much of anything. I think the reason we tend to focus so much on smoothers is a combination of the general difficulty many have with working figured woods and nowadays more woodworkers process stock by machine.
So Charles, what is your favorite plane and why?
gdblake
GD,
Consider yourself to have been given a large compliment. Charles has answered you. He hasn't answered me.
Do you remember Charles from the old days? He used a bunch of different names, but essentially he is a "hard liner" for doing woodwork, not for talking up fancy tools. He focuses on doing work in the shop, and not on talking up expensive stuff with other people who are more into tools than into making things.
His approach on this subject is pretty much identical to that of most other professional furniture makers. I can't see a real professional furniture maker getting all teary eyed about a Boutique plane that costs in the thousands. I can't see a professional car repairman having a bunch of boutique wrenches in his shop that cost $2000. He knows what would happen to them.
This attitude is more of a "culture" than anything else. It comes from the early years that most up and comers go through who want to build fine furniture for a living. Initially, the money isn't there to buy fancy tools, and they certainly are not necessary. I don't know any professionals who use them -- just rich old hobbyists. Not that there is anything wrong with being a rich old hobbyist!!!!!. I am an old hobbyist who would like to be rich.
Woodworking hobbyists who focus on expensive tools remind m of older affluent bicycle riders (hobbyists) who spend a great deal of time talking about the lengths of various tubes on a bike, and the type of welds, and the placement of the spokes on a fancy new set of wheels that have just made it into the bike mags. They have fun doing this, and it doesn't hurt anything. They find others who enjoy talking about the stuff, and they get together and talk.
If one wanted to become a professional woodworker (fine furniture maker, not a kitchen builder), one wouldn't be wrong in listening closely to Charles. I have never seen photos of his work, so I am not sure if he has made anything, but he talks like he is a professional woodworker. Who cares if he actually is. He is one of the last of a dying breed - rugged individualists with attitude. My guess is that he'd be a hard guy to like, but his advice on professional woodworking sounds very solid to me -- very solid indeed.
Unfortunately, there are not a lot of professional woodworkers (fine furniture makers) on Knots. Just a few. I wish there were a lot more. One can learn a lot more from Ray, Richard, Rob and Charles about real woodworking than by talking to other hobbyists about expensive planes. But then again, not everybody wants to be a professional woodworker. Some people just really enjoy talking about expensive planes to other people who like to talk about expensive planes. Nothing wrong with that.
Have fun. I enjoy hearing you talk about fancy planes. You sound like you are in seventh heaven when you do. It is nice to see happy people.
Mnel
It's all fun.
Hi Mel:
Thirty years ago I was a "part-time professional woodworker". Like Derek my day job was counselling and managing two rural county mental health centers. I had hooked up with an unfinished furniture store to build custom orders. Beds, dressers, chest of drawers, kitchen cabinets, book cases, all case goods. My power tools consisted of a Craftsman tablesaw, belt sander, 1/4 pad sander, corded drill, and a cheap Craftsman fixed base router. A few old Stanley planes, junk set of Stanley chisels, brace and bits, and some handsaws got me by. If I couldn't do the job with the tools I had or if I knew it was beyond my skill level I passed on it. As it was, I stayed busy and the guys that owned the furniture store kept pressing me to go full time with the woodworking. Glad I didn't because they folded when the Chattanooga economy crashed in the early 80s.
I appreciate a guy like Charles because he's happy with what he has and knows what he can do with it. Anybody can own a tool, using it is another matter. I'm way more impressed by what someone can do then by what they own.
Yes, handplanes have become a hobby in and of themselves with me. I've really enjoyed messing around making wooden planes using the Krenov method. The experience has taught me a lot and I have ended up with some nice tools. There are two things I really appreciate about Ron Brese's planes (and Clark & Williams planes as well). The craftsmanship that goes into them and the excellent way they perform. I wish I had these guys skills.
gdblake
GD
Great response. Glad to learn about your background. That makes three psychologists around here: gdblake, derek and 9619. But my specialty was Human Factors Psychology - designing tools, procedures, manuals, systems, etc that humans interact well with. Thus, my interest in woodworking tools, procedures, training programs, etc. I don't talk about my background here in Knots much, because in the past, it generated some negative responses. Working at NASA, trying to design systems and tools that humans interact well with -- that was a great career.
I got into woodwork because my wife is such an avid needleworker. She is a phenomenal quilt maker. She did drapes, clothes for the kids, decorative stitchery, etc, and I needed something to occupy myself. My brother was in the business of doing remodelling - mostly kitchens. He made some wonderful furniture. In his first shop class in High School, when others made a shoe box, he made a full sized hutch based on an Ethan Allan design. I asked him how to make raised panel doors. He showed me on his Unisaw, which was made in the first year that Delta made Unisaws. He refurbished it completely after finding it sitting in a few feet of water in the basement of an old hotel in Hartford, Conn. THen he showed me how to make the frames for the raised panel. He said, "You have to get a Stanley dowelling jig, and you use two dowels in each joint. I did that for twenty years.
For decades, I made stuff, but didn't read much about woodworking, and never took any classes. I did watch Norm on TV. It wasn't until I started reading FWW that I realized there was more to joinery than a dowelling jig. By the way, Not one of my dowelled joints has ever failed. But then again, none was made before 1968. :-) I didn't own a plane. I started with: circular saw, jig saw, router, belt sander, hand drill --- all Craftsman!!!!! For seven years, I built everything on a worktable that I made from scraps of plywood from the site that was building the arpartment house that I was living in. I did it on the second story deck of the porch -- in places like Binghamton, NY. Later, I graduated to a table saw, drill press, jointer, etc, ---- all Craftsman.
I never had the urge to do woodworking for a living. I enjoyed what I had spent ten years in universities learning to do. After getting on Knots, I responded negatively to folks like Derek, urging them to use power sanders rather than planes. THEN I LEARNED. Slowly, I acquired some old Stanleys, and fettled them. Then I started to learn what they could do. It took a while, but now I have gone almost entirely unplugged. Working part time at Woodcraft after i retired, I got some nice Lie Nielsens at a great price. Nothing against Lee Valley. WC just didn't sell them. Of course, now neither LV nor LN will sell to WC. What a shame.
At first, I thought that paying $350 for a hand plane was outrageous, but after using one for a while, along with my Stanleys (which operate excellently with their original irons), I began to really appreciate the LNs. After a while, I began to learn about the boutique planes, and tried a few. My parents were very blue collar. I can't get that out of my blood. If I had the money, I still couldn't buy a $100,000 car. And I couldn't buy an expensive plane. But "expensive" is a relative word. I have become comfortable that LN and LV tools are well worth the price. With LN, I can sell them on EBay and get my money back. i can't do that with anything else. BUT, having tried some expensive planes, and having read Knots, and having read Chrs Schwartz's "Handplane Essentials" chapters on boutique planes, and having read Derek on such planes, I have come to the conclusion that one cannot really buy a better plane than a LN or an LV. I also believe that I don't really even need the LNs and LVs, because my woodies do just fine, and the Stanleys are even better at some things.
Reading Chris's shootout on lots of different planes, including the boutiques, was an eye opener. He is a writer so he can't afford to upset the hand plane makers, but he came out and said it - the only reason to buy them is if they make you feel good. Even Derek has come close to saying that.
The more I use my LN's, the more I like em. Last night, I was planing the flat edges of come curved pieces for the backs of two chairs. I used my LN #8. Then I used my Stanley #7. I could easily get away with my Stanley, which I fettled myself, or with an old wood try plane that I have, But I really like my #8.
So I guess I am hooked on nice tools. I am not as hard over as Charles. I enjoy the making of the furniture, not the owning of the tools. I do enjoy the using of the tools, as you do. So in the scheme of things, there may be a continuum, with Derek on one end of the spectrum, and you somewhere to the right of Derek, and me somewhere to the right of you, and Charles somewhere to the right of Attila the Hun. There is room for all of us in this world of woodworking.
It really was nice to get to know you a little better.
Thank you.
Mel
Mel
It's time to give this broken record a rest.
It is not about the tools but about the use of the tools. Who cares how expensive or how cheap, for example, a smoother or chisel or handplane is if they are used with the same affection and dedication to make furniture (or whatever).
Regards from Perth
Derek
No offense to you, but I don't think there is enough figured wood in the world to supply all the internet woodworking experts who claim they need thousand dollar ++ planes with which to 'smooth' it. I know it's in short-supply around here. You'd think everything, virtually everything, these blokes built was out of the gnarliest tiger maple ever to show up at a lumber yard, and not treated as an occassional indulgence tempered by artistic restraint (what's that? most will say). Perhaps a lot of this relatively rare stock is being sacrificed to test the boutique planes people with more money than good sense, or woodworking skills, are sure they must own because they read it on a forum somewhere.
To answer, however tangentially, your question to me about planes - my finishing plane is, most of the time, an old No. 3 Stanley - the type with the more solidly made frog. Made by the tens of thousands year by year. What it hiccups on gets rectified (or not) with a card scraper. I don't doubt for a moment that somebody with a very expensive plane can produce a 'better' surface (most so treated look oddly devoid of character to me). This fact doesn't bother me in the least, nor do I consider it to be a problem I need to solve. Glorious indifference - very liberating. I actually think it's pleasant to run a hand across a wide expanse of tiger maple and feel the change in texture that corresponds with the figure. Silly me, I guess I didn't get the memo that this stuff is required to be homogenized into oblivion - a mere suggestion of its former self. The tool salesman might ought to just say "I have a plane that will make any wood feel like smooth Melamine in one pass." I find that news less scintillating than most, and my wallet is happier for it. Just because we can doesn't mean we should. Probably applies in a lot of areas of life beyond making furniture. Oh well, one man's smooth is another man's craggy mountain range. Maybe it is absurdity itself, artistic license and the beginnings of the establishment of one's own style, or reclamation of the differential texture of species of wood. Or a bit of all three. Only one's hairdresser might know for sure.
I have an old Ohio Tool Co. smoother that is showing promise after I closed the mouth on it a little. Probably doesn't plane any better than the 3, but feels nicer to an arthritic hand. Bought it on a lark, truly I did. Spent an hour or so futzing with it. A nice little exercise in relatively precise and delicate chisel work. That's all the effort I'm willing to put into something like that. It was an interesting diversion. Probably unnecessary given that the No. 3 works fine. Chalk it up to a moment of weakness I guess or maybe latent nostalgia, or maybe need for pain relief. Pick whichever one you think puts me in the best light.
Otherwise, apologies in advance, try as I might the tools don't always excite me. I have about as much fondness for them as I do the piston in the number four cylinder of my car. It's there. It works. I'm appreciative. Same for them. I'm much more interested in the journey I'm on than the pistons in the engine that get me there. Thankfully, woodworking tools are simpler than an automobile engine. They require comparatively little maintenance for the possibilities manifested in them.
No offense taken, thanks for the reply
Charles:
I greatly appreciate your reply. One of the things I enjoy from Knots is learning how others approach woodworking because it is often an opportunity to learn. If nothing else, it forces me to rethink my own approach. Your simple statement of "everything's a smoother" reminded me that I couldn't get much done if all of my planes were smoothers. There's a lot to be said for the simplicity of limiting yourself to a #3 or card scraper. If the board can't be worked with what you have, just maybe it's the wrong board instead of the wrong tool.
gdblake
Charlie Charisma (aka Bossy Crankism)
GD, you mention,
"I appreciate a guy like Charles because he's happy with what he has and knows what he can do with it. Anybody can own a tool, using it is another matter. I'm way more impressed by what someone can do then by what they own".
I feel you may have fallen for Charlie's charismatic charade, whereby he exudes a mien of Authority, mostly be dissing views other than his own incredibly narrow/shallow drone; yet never provides any evidence of any kind that he knows anything much about making wooden articles. You have also fallen for his false division of "peole who make or own high quality tools and therefore cannot woodwork" from "people who don't make or own high quality tools and therefore can woodwork".
* We have never seen a photo (not one) of any of his claimed woodworking. He has in the past offered the "excuse" that we might all copy his fantastic designs and somehow do him out of business. Ha! Another explanation suggests itself, the most simple (and therefore most probable) - that he doesn't actually make anything. (Prove me wrong, then, Charlie).
* Charlie's "advice" is usually a lot of negatives about other folks' experiences and the conclusions they have practically derived from them. Should one be a novice and look to guidance from Charlie-posts, one will find virtually nothing of use apart from the rather obvious just-do-it and you-need-skill remarks: not exactly sage-like utterances. There is lots of prejudiced blather about the tools and personalities he does not like, however. His motive seems to be envy of such folk rather than any considered critique of what they do and say.
As another wise psychologist amongst the Knots bretheren once remarked, a Charlie-post is " never about the woodworking". It seems to be about Charlie the superman sneering at all the undermen. As with other supermen, one may discern a certain lack of objectivity in his self-assessment and that of others. Indeed, with Charlie anything "other" is instantly wrong.
However, he does provide fine amusememt and stimulation to the likes of moi, always keen for a verbal scrap with a paper tiger or a poser on a podium (self-erected).
And I will offer him a short piece of excellent advice: to get respect other than the awe of the gullible, one must give respect.
Lataxe, a Charlie-chaser.
Not to worry, I'm not naive
Lataxe:
Thanks for your concern, good to know a few people are trying to look out for me. I've been a member of Knots for years. I'm fully aware of Charles' exploits and various disguises. He likes to pet cats from tail to head. Even though he meant it as a jibe, his point in this case was quite valid. When I responded to his jibe he was polite and friendly in his response. When asked what his favorite plane is he replied he likes his #3, a smoothing plane. Another Charles misdirect or an honest exchange. We may never know.
I'm not sure if Charles picked up on the subtle way I responsed to his "but I don't think there is enough figured wood in the world to supply all the internet woodworking experts who claim they need thousand dollar ++ planes with which to 'smooth' it." I was very indirect, but I ended my exchange with Charles with the statement "If the board can't be worked with what you have, just maybe it's the wrong board instead of the wrong tool." That was my nonconfrontational way of saying if your tools are limited so is your choice of materials. Inspite of changing careers 25 years ago, sometimes those old counselling techniques slip into how I discourse with people. I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing.
gdblake
Blushing
GD,
Sorry to get so carried away with Charlie-hunting that I came over a touch patronising. I offer my shame-face at this faux-pas. As you say, there is room for multiple kinds of Quality and procedures, although sometimes a "higher " quality will provide a greater capability. And a "lower" quality will often do.
Ed,
I see you are a doing the "Zen & the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" thang. That book describes a fine journey and one I am trying to emulate in my own Galgatian context, which may or may not be possible lacking the allegorical geography of the Western USA. I would be interested in hearing your mumblings concerning this book - it's concepts and their relevance to woodworking (or vice versa).
Charlie,
You need to consider Basic Logic before blurting your silly examplars. The fact that very skilled blokes of yesteryear (and today) can produce remarkable work with less-than-optimum tools does not mean that optimum tools lack value in aiding good work.
Lataxe, never closing his mind-doors despite the risk of snakes getting in.
Well that is too large of an assignment. I am only halfway through the book, but there is no way that I am going to make these grand pronouncements about "woodworking" and try to connect them to the ideas in that book. Woodworking is too big of a tent, in my perspective of it - there are many, many different types of people engaged in many forms of it - what you see in "knots" is a very small and limited sample of the types of folks out there. In my own personal little life I am literally surrounded by woodworkers - my Dad taught shop for 35 years, my girlfriend Colleen made her living as a custom woodworker for 25 years, and a close friend of my family ran a very successful cabinet shop for over 30 years. There is no way I could even attempt to throw my philosophical lasso around all of these people and their attitudes toward woodworking. Woodworking is simply a hobby for me and the beauty of working with hand tools is that I can think about writing fiction while I do it. Also I like wooden boats and the first one I ever made that actually floated was kind of a kodak moment for me.
Now one of the first ideas that catches you by the throat in ZAMM is the idea that anything that can be done well is an art. You could obviously apply concept that to making your Hayrake tables and enjoying using your expensive tools and whatnot.
But you say that you are trying to emulate the ZAMM journey in your own Galgatian context - does that mean you are trying to achieve a balance between a romantic, gestalt-driven appreciation and understanding of the world, and a rational, logical, "classical," problem-solving intelligence of the world? Aren't we all, though many may only dimly realize it? The beauty and success of ZAMM seems to be that it draws out this dialectic - but as mentioned, I've not finished reading it. Books that "will help me more as a writer" - my rationalized excuse for books that are "more fun to read", eg Ken Bruen, Sanctuary, Daniel Defoe, Robinson Crusoe, Vladimir Nabokov, Lolita, Leonard Gardner, Fat City, William Faulkner, Absalom, Absalom, John D. MacDonald, Dead Low Tide - are on my shelf and compete for my attention. But I will finish ZAMM - Colleen told me I had to read it in order to understand why she put 9 coats of finish on a hardwood floor that she was refinishing once (I already understood that she was a perfectionist).
Puzzle Books
Ed,
As you say, no subject as large as woodwork could or should be reduced to half a dozen aphorisms, zennish or otherwise. I did find ZAMM providing yet another sidelight to illuminate the subject though - along with the writings of David Pye, Richard Sennett and others about craftsmanship. The ZAMM elements that grab my attention are to do with understanding what that "rightness" is (Pirsig's Quality) or how it can be recognised; and how the interface between my and my "work" can be enhanced. There seem to be many routes; which is why I find the trite Charlie/Mel dismissal of alternative paths so tedious.
One route involves some kind of alignment of the Quality-seeking across everything involved in an endeavour. My feeling is that the tool is a very important interface between a craftsman and his intent (the quality he is trying to put into what he makes). My experience is that some tools do better than others in creating this interface, as they "disappear" in the hand so that the joining of the craftsman's mind/hands to the crafted result doesn't require tool-wrestling or contain too much tool-limitation attributes.
After all, why should a tool we acquire from a tool-making craftsman be anything less, Quality-wise, than what we hope our furniture will be? As Pirsig mentions, some technology-manufactured objects have a severe lack of quality because the designer or manufacturer have not bothered about Quality and merely churned out a thing with surface-look or style. It looks like a plane but it doesn't behave like a "right" plane can.
So, a craftsman-made tool, such as a Brese or Marcou plane, helps me approach the quality I desire (feel is "right") in the table, chair or cabinet. I also know (from bitter experience) that one of those other kind of planes (typified by the modern Recod or Anant) is a hinderance within the interface of me to the intended piece.
But this isn't to say that a chap (such as our own Sarge) cannot develop a tool-maintenance skill to such a high art that even an Anant or a low-quality Record can be made to perfom to the level they require. Nor will other kinds of plane that contain a rather more Quality (LV, LN and all the others) be inadequate. There is an argument that a person can become so experienced and skilled with even very poor quality tools that they surmount them and do Quality work anyway.
The superskilled people generally seem to acquire that degree of poor-tool surmounting skill via long apprenticeship or other very time-demanding experience. But whether the cynical Charlies and Mels can see it or not, I know from a lot of personal experience that the quality of my own work improves when high quality tools are used. This improvement is not automatic and still requires me to spend time to acquire the skill, as well as determination to keep trying (via mistakes) until there is success. But it allows me (at my ripe age) to have time to develop other skills too.
Perhaps I am lazy, in some way, if I fail to devote my whole remaining life to acquiring the skills to overcome poor tools? I prefer to think that I am merely being efficient and economical with that time. The high quality tools are merely an accelerator. It doesn't matter if they cost more than the average tool, if the money is available. Money is only money and those who are cheap with it only end up having cheap lives.
Lataxe, about to receive Pirsig 's second tome (Lila) from dear Mr Amazon.
PS As to synthesising romantic and analytic character traits / associated behaviours - well, it seems like I spent my whole life trying to do that balancing act. It's very easy to slip off the ridge into Reductionist's Chasm or down the other side into Arty-farty Canyon, both dead-ends.
Good post, Lataxe - I understand your attitude a little better. I think it would be a shame if young people starting out thought that they needed four-figure tools to do good work, but frankly I am bored with that whole argument. I am glad that you are happy with your kit and wish you the very best of all possible woodworking tools to assist you in your philosophical expedition to, like Robert Pirsig, find out what Quality really is.
I see that I am being called "unEdifying" by Philip in another post, which I guess is a step up from "woodworking taliban." Ah well, maybe we can discuss this in person at the WIA conference.
Still awaiting an explanation
Still wondering how all the old boys got along - you know, the ones whose stuff is in museums. I've been to most of them worth going to. Stuff looks pretty good to me. Smooth and all. I guess. Or is it? They usually frown on the patrons touching it. Still, it looks good from behind the ropes.
Maybe some of the museum curators will log in here an realize that the stuff in their collections was really made by unsophisticated hacks with a laughable kit of crude tools. Having come to such a conclusion, promptly dump the entire collection. I'd be a buyer. You?
Charles the explaination is simple, the tools weren't crude
Charles:
I've heard this from others. First, their tools were not crude. Infill planes were in use 2,000 years ago by the Romans. Though simple, wooden bodied planes from all around the world for centuries were precise tools capable of producing flat stock. Their other tools were also more developed than most are willing to believe. Second, the craftsmen were highly skilled. They started in childhood and spent a couple of decades honing their craft by working long hours day in and day out.
Superior tools are not a guarantee of becoming a talented woodworker, but inferior tools can keep a person from developing to their full potential. As I stated in this thread, I appreciate your being content with the tools you have and the level of skill you have achieved with those tools. As you stated, I understand the peace of mind and liberation it gives you and I'm happy for you. There are some here, I'm one of them, who wish to advance their skills and not be held back by their tools. Neither viewpoint is wrong, nor should either side look down on the other.
gdblake
Just saying...
But could it be that even if they were crude, in the past they were more concerned with the wood left on the bench and not the shaving that was thrown away? From my experience in photography I know there is a joy and satisfaction on using the right tool for the job and having things come out as we envisioned them the first time because of that tool, some of them happen to be expensive but necessary.
Having said that, IMO I don't think planes fall in this category. OTOH if you enjoy making planes, it is good to have a base line to shoot for and the fact that they can take a 0.000001 of an inch shaving is irrelevant.
Shavings were useful back in the day too
JG:
Couldn't tell you the thickness of any shaving a plane of mine has taken and don't care. All I care about is the board the right size, shape, and smooth enough for the use I'm putting it to. Regardless of the tools they had, my belief is that's all the craftsmen of the past cared about as well. Like them, I do use shavings to start fires and burnish surfaces (I'm told they stuffed their mattresses with shavings as well, something I don't care to try). Oh, shavings can be pretty useful for soaking up spills too. Maybe we should start a thread and everybody can share their clever uses for shavings. Ah, I digress.
Sorry, I'm not into texting and have no idea what "OTOH" stands for. As I've already acknowledged to Charles, not every plane should be a smoother. Still, when it comes to a smoother, I've never used a better one than the Ron Brese plane I bragged on at the start of this thread (and as I have already admitted to Mel, no I haven't gotten to try out every other smoother on the market, but have gotten to test drive quite a few of them).
It's okay with me that handplanes aren't a big deal to you. No reason they should be. I don't get excited about cameras even though I own and use a couple of them all the time. My original post was intended for those who share my interest in handplanes. "But in too many cases we find that we are constantly dealing with what is urgent, and not with what is important. They are not the same." I have no idea where that statement fits into the discussion, but as a universal statement I agree with it. Still, this subject has been rehashed on Knots several times making it neither urgent nor important. It's been fun, but there is no point in continuing this. Charles, I hope I have somehow answered your concerns.
gdblake
Perhaps I did not explain myself well.
The purpose of my post was to encourage you to continue to make your planes and shoot for what you feel is an example of excellence. The price of the tool is unimportant.
OTOH means "On the other hand"....
The last sentence is my signature that comes from a writing David Ring was kind enough to send to me, regarding the life of a professional woodworker. I guess I should try and separate it from the message text, I suppose it is a glitch on the forum program.
Good luck and let us see some of your planes in the future.
I miss understood your post, I apologize.
Jorge:
Please accept my apology, I miss understood the intent and tone of your post. I have already posted several of my planes. If interested, you should be able to do a search on my name and see some of them. A few others have also posted pictures of really fine planes they have made using the Krenov method. I advocate this method for several reasons. It is cheap, quick, doesn't require a high level of skills, allows for experiementation, and yields a very usable tool. The other nice thing about this method is that it lends itself to making just about any type or style of bevel down wooden bench plane you might want.
Thanks for jumping in. Not enough people are posting on Knots these days. Hopefully the community will build back up.
gdblake
Well, of course they really were not crude at all, though a Breese plane might objectively do a slightly better job "out of the box."
People today make the mistake of thinking that they can buy a skill that does not exist in the hand.
CHarles,
I order you not to reply to my message. Please do my bidding.
Now for a thought which I am sure has occurred to you. You are on a fools errand. Your take on expensive handplanes is identical to that of Ray Pine and all of the other professionals, and is similar to that of some hobbyists, such as me. However, Knots is not for professionals. It is mostly peopled by hobbyists with too much disposable income. As Derek said, people around here want to talk about expensive planes, not design, or skill, or making masterpieces. Those topics are too difficult for those who spend their mental resources thinking about their next expensive purchase rather than on continuing to make outstanding furniture with merely tools that can do the job.
You speak the truth, but unfortunately you are like a Buddhist walking into the College of Cardinals. You have a culture which is foreign to the culture of the locals.
Keep it up. You give some people the excuse to rant, and that makes them happy. Isn't it nice to make people happy?
Mel
Dog's Level
Charlie,
Our dog does not care what shape or how ornamented his dish is. He does not care how the food is arranged in the dish. He does not savor his food. He has no social component to his chowing. Only the nutrients. He just turned 6 months old and is already at your asthetic (and maybe even intellectual) level. You are lucky that you can make a living being so exuberantly gifted. We, if not plural then royal, :), can extend such observations to furniture, eating utensils, writing utensils, watches, cars, clothing, tools (handplanes included), art, etc.
Metod
Metod,
You responded to me (9619) but addressed the message to "Charlie". So I am not sure if you mistook my message as having been written by Charles. In any case, I wondered how I could respond to what you said in a comical way. This is what I came up with.:
Metod,
We are amused by your insouciance.
However, we will become annoyed if your insouciance evolves to impertinence. If that occurs, we will insure that you are informed. Until then, carry on. You are excused.
HRH
I was curious
"You responded to me (9619) but addressed the message to "Charlie""
I meant to address my reply to both, you and Charlie - but became curious to see what would happen otherwise.
So, you were amused rather than ashamed? This being the case, you have
My wishes for an eventual recovery,
Metod
I was curious
"You responded to me (9619) but addressed the message to "Charlie""
I meant to address my reply to both, you and Charlie - but became curious to see what would happen otherwise.
So, you were amused rather than ashamed? This being the case, you have
My wishes for an eventual recovery,
Metod
Metod,
You have always amused me. Amusement is the reason most people come to Knots, IMHO. WHen I first came to Knots, I got into a thread in which a number of the old guard were arguing about which shoulder plane was best, and I posted a simple message. Interestingly enough, I got a response from Forestgirl, who said that she saw I was new to Knots and she warned me about the dangers of getting into Threads which were rambunctious. I noticed that the old guard was just exercising and having fun. Certainly, no one in their right mind could get this excited and "angry" about shoulder planes. I didn't participate in the thread except for that one message. What I saw was a number of folks who were exercising their mind with a little fun conversation. I think I noticed a few who seemed serious, but I found that difficult to believe, so I gave them the benefit of the doubt.
One of the folks in that thread was Adam Cherubini, who sent me a private message, and said that he was upset that I was "Dissing" him. I responded with a private message, saying that I had never heard of him, and didn't know who he was, and that my message was addressed to someone else, and was extremely positive. He wrote back and essentially said that he thought that most people knew who he was, and he apologized when he realized that I didn't know anyone in Knots, including him. WHen he reread my message, he found that it was quite positive.
I learned from that first experience that there are some folks on Knots who take themselves pretty seriously, even though no one else takes them seriously. There are fewer of those folks around now, but we still have some. I do not take myself seriously. This is just for fun. Also, you may have noticed over the years, that I never get into an argument. I don't enjoy arguments. I do enjoy serious intellectual discussions. Not all discussions around here are of that sort. I do remember a tag line which said "If you don't think so good, then don't think so much." Great like, don't you think.
I have always enjoyed your posts. Please keep on posting.
Have fun. Hope you enjoyed my "hypothetical response" to you.
Mel
Mel,
it certainly appears that Knots is populated by more hobbyists than professionals, but that may be an illusion since there are alot of lurkers who rarely contribute but choose rather to glean what knowledge they can and find entertainment in the sniping that goes on in threads like this one...that issue aside, how in hell can one have too much disposable income?...can you provide some enlightenment on the subject?...I'd really like to know.
Neil, who enjoys his tools and his woodworking
Too much disposable income
Niel
Your question is VERY EASY. How can someone have too much disposable income? There is a saying: Cocaine is God's way of telling you that you have too much disposable income.
There is another example. I have a friend in CA who became a Marine aviator the year I started my first real job. He went to CA and bought one house after another starting back in the late 60s. A few years ago, he sold them all and bought:
- a $3M house
- two airplanes
- a $156,000 sports car,
and numerous other toys.
Now do you understand "too much disposable income"?
Of course, it is a 'relative" term. To some, $100 is a lot of money. To others, it is $1000, and to others, it is $100,000,000.
I know one guy who has over 1000 planes and saws, many of which are HIGHLY COLLECTABLE. I asked him to adopt me, since he is older than I, and his kids are not interested in tools. He said NO.
"too much disposable income" is a fun term. Great to get a conversation going. :-)
Thanks for writing. I enjoy my woodworking and tools too. I wish I had enough disposable income to buy three Holteys.
Mel
People today make the mistake of thinking that they can buy a skill that does not exist in the hand.
Charles
Regardless of the cost of a tool, skills are bought with sweat. We all know that.
The Tools-of-the-Trade are freely available these days, and in the past couple of decades the quality has improved beyond the dreams of the woodworker of Yesterday. And all this is because hobbiests of Today dream of being like the woodworkers of Yesterday.
Does it somehow degrade you when hobbiests also wield tools and call themselves "woodworker"?
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,
Just a short time ago, you wrote to me saying that we should get away from this old rehashed topic. Now that Charles has brought it up again, you have jumped back in. Very interesting!!!!!!!
Also interesting that no one is able to generate a lot of discussion these days. As we discussed, even your latest photo essay generate little interest. HOWEVER, when Charles jumps in with his conservative views, you and everyone else is jumping in and showing a lot of interest. That says that either:
1) Charles is a very very interesting and important person, or
2) Charles' ideas are very important and potentially damaging to the current Knots wisdom, and must be dealt with before they have an effect.
In any case, three cheers for Charles, who has generated more excitement and responses than anyone has, since the old days.
Now if we could only get Adam Cheubini back to join in.
Have fun. (Don't take Knots or Knotheads too seriously. :-)
Mel
PS - Charles' views on tools are essentially universally held in the professional woodworking world, and as such, have an unexcelled degree of validity. You may not like Charles or his message, but you have to acknowledge that his message is absolutely valid.
My guess is that Charles could walk into Ray's workshop or into Richard's workshop, and turn out magnificent work USING THEIR TOOLS, or he could do so in my workshop or your workshop. I don't believe that any of the afficianados of expensive tools could do that in their own workshop, never mind in Ray's workshop.
Q.E.D.
Like I've always said Mel, I can collect dental instruments and it won't make me a dentist.
"Like I've always said Mel, I
"Like I've always said Mel, I can collect dental instruments and it won't make me a dentist."
Perhaps with practice and and some good "stock" to practice on?
Good one, BB
I am wondering...
Do you actually read what you write? If so, do you realize how obnoxious you come across in your posts?
You make sweeping generalizations with no basis or data to back them, up for example:
" Charles' views on tools are essentially universally held in the professional woodworking world "
You must get around a lot to know every professional woodworker in the world.
Then you put down professional kitchen and cabinet makers with sentences like this:
"If one wanted to become a professional woodworker (fine furniture maker, not a kitchen builder)"
Not only is this arrogant, but it shows your ignorance about high end, solid wood cabinets and kitchens. When friends found out I was starting a solid wood design shop, they took me to a home where the person who made the kitchen had used the doors of the kitchen cabinets as a canvas. He had carved across the entire length of the cabinet doors a landscape, pretty much like a black and white photograph and had left the drawers bare. Not only was the kitchen functional but it was a piece of art as well, that any chair, table or "fine furniture maker" as you put it would envy. Let me put it this way, there is no doubt in my mind that David Ring would run rings around you as a wood worker based on what I have seen from his work and what you have posted in the knots gallery.
This brings me to the general arrogance and lecturing tone of your 500 word essay posts. I cannot speak for anybody else her, but whenever I try to read your posts I cannot get past the second sentence before I start thinking you either think too much of yourself or you think the rest of us are idiots, I am betting on the former. Heck you do not even have an amusing style like Lataxe. The magic of english is that it is a very succinct and efficient language as a non native english speaker I urge to learn how to use your language more efficiently, it shows a greater intelligence.
And finally you clearly do not know what is the meaning of the initials Q.E.D ( quod erat demonstrandum ) in your previous post you did not prove, demonstrated or provided incontrovertible evidence that what you posted was true. All you did was present some assumptions based on nothing but generalizations and what you thought was our motivation to answer to this thread.
Sorry for the rant guys, but someone had to say it.
Jorge.
PS. I do not know Derek, he is not my friend and I am sure that if he wanted to argue with you he is a big boy and can defend himself, but men, if you want to argue with him about wood working you are bringing a knife to a gun fight based on your gallery posts.
Flies
Jorge, well said and no need to apologise for anything. The perrenial flies are a-buzzing again and one needs to get out the fly swatter a la Lataxe now and again, lest we be swamped by Malevolence, UnEdifying waspy commentary and Charlatanism.
I can't help observing that whilst all three like to talk about cabinet making none have shown any notable examples of work , or any aptitude for actually making useful tools of any sort, preferring instead to belittle others.
I would also like to point out that many of the fine cabinet makers of yore were also makers of superior tools, often by necessity but also by choice: a visit to a London museum will confirm that. And collecting tools is not the preserve of hobbyists- not a few of my customers are full time professional woodworkers, whilst others produce pieces in their spare time which are superb examples.
But it is unfettered Charlatanism that gets up my nose....
Hello, mookaroid
Hello, Philip
Glad to hear you keeping busy with plane making.
First time back here in a while, and I see that somebody actually got Charlie to post some pictures of his work.......quite amusing.
I also see that a certain troll still enjoys interjecting 2000 word essays in gibberish regarding what he qualifies as boutique hand planes.
I guess some things never change.
Take care,
Jeff
Just a short time ago, you wrote to me saying that we should get away from this old rehashed topic. Now that Charles has brought it up again, you have jumped back in. Very interesting!!!!!!!
Mel
I see these kids in my practice. They are bored and then proceed to stirr up as much trouble as they can for entertainment. Unfortunately, they do more damage to themselves, their reputations and relationships, and you have to ask whether they believe it is worth it. That is a rhetorical question since they have little insight, and even less tolerance to play quietly.
I quite enjoy working with these kids. They can be fun ... hard work .. very hard work, but life needs to have its little excitements. So I welcome the challenge. Others are not so accepting.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Curators and Docents
Charlie,
Well, the visitors need them. But there is some similarity with the eunuchs (such as employed by Chinese courts): They can't but know 'everything' about those around them who can.
Best wishes,
Metod
Charles, surely you wouldn't be a buyer if there were any other bidders. According to your own claims, you can't even afford a second set of chisels.
I remember when I was in first grade, I told my parents I wanted to buy the A-team van when the show got cancelled.
Lataxe - well done in explanation. I haven't ever even seen a picture of anything charles has produced, but I sure have seen no shortage of posts where he claims to carve a chess queen out of ebony knots with a hatchet that was sharpened with a sand-filled towel.
Here ya' go Hoss.
Great sideboard
Charles:
That is a truly beautiful sideboard, very nice work. Thanks for sharing.
gdblake
Nice!
So you're saying that you really didn't need a $1500 bench plane to build that? If that's true, then I definitely don't need a $1500 bench plane to do the woodworking that I do.
I still need that $5000 Special Edition Martin Eric Clapton signature acoustic guitar, though. Really, I do. The limited, special-special handmade custom shop one with ol' EC's name in mother-of-pearl inlay and the 14 carat gold purfling? No kidding, It will make me a better guitar player. Really, I just know it. There are subtleties that just can't be duplicated with an ordinary guitar....even now, I am working on my lists of rationalizations for purchasing it, plus saving the money. If I could find a forum on the internet where starry-eyed novice pickers raved like a drooling Gomer Pyle on crack about how great they were, then that might help me pull the trigger on buying one,
Exceedingly poor trolling, Ed. Or should I say excellent display of some sort of mania?
Poor because there are very few professional musicians who use instruments that are of the same relative quality as is a krenov plane to an infill.
In fact, I'd like you to point them out to me, the ones who are serious players using substandard instruments - not just the ones who sling an instrument around their neck and sing songs other people wrote, just the serious players.
Travels across all types of music. Most performers either have one-offs that are custom built by a manufacturer, or ghost-built guitars with the contract endorser forcing the ghost builder to falsely apply the veneer/peghead of the endorser onto the otherwise completely custom guitar.
Don't see too many professional saxophone players running a bundy II on stage and jumping online to criticize the "novice" players who are hunting for a Mark VI, either.
Next thing we know, you're going to run to the corner of the wrestling mat to tag in charles so he can tell us how his obsession with golf balls ruined someone else's ability to work wood with high quality tools.
Not trolling, just joking around with an old friend who has been on the forum for a long time, same as me.
Woodworking is a big tent - whatever opinion you have is fine with me.
Image over substance
Mr W,
That Ed is a tease although he finds it difficult to differentiate teasing from sneering some days. He is working something out so we must not tut over much at him.
Concerning that geetar example he gives, I ask him to consider this: has he differentiated (he needs lots of differentiating practice) between geetars (or planes) that are expensive because of all the surface style and glitter and those that are expensive because a master craftsman applied considerable and hard won-skill, for lots of hours, to make a tool that provides users with a very large scope within which to develop their own skills?
Naturally, some star-struck hero-worshiping types will always be impressed with a label or a dollop of celebrity. One can spot them by the name-dropping and fawning over this or that "personality" or fashion (even if the fashion is 200 years out of date).
As you intimate, as soon as the price is for a label with some big-knob / celebrity name on it, we may justifiably ask, where is the quality? With other items, we count up all the signals that indicate the presence of high quality then decide if we are willing and able to meet the cost. We wants the better tool or instrument to expand out potential-scope. Cost considerations are just a bit of arithmetic.
****
I have been larnin' the classical guitar for nearly a year now, no easy matter like larnin to work wood. :-) The first guitar has been a £300 Cashimira - a fine instrument of good quality materials and design but limited in its tone, volume and ease-of-fingering (I have discovered). It has got me so far. It would get me still farther.
My tutor has a rather nicer instrument of fabulous tone and playability (even when I, the cack-hand, am allowed to pluck at it). It cost £7000. Now, how do I decide whether to stick with what I have or to seek a better instrument? Do I need to become a much better player first (plenty of scope there)? Or is that slightly Catch 22 and will I indeed become a better player if "encouraged" and "enabled" by a better instrument?
I tend to the latter view. I might be wrong, as it turns out. But will a better geetar prevent my progress? If not and I have the money, why not seek that better tool for making music? After all, the money would otherwise sit in a bank, get spent on transitory pleasures (beer and skittles) or get left to a daughter, who would only be ruined by such spoils..... If I buy a better guitar I may increase my learning rate or even my eventual degree of competance (although I may not). Meanwhile, a fine geetar maker will be encouraged to continue his craft, to the benefit of all - himself and those players who really can take advantage of the capabilities his instrument enables.
Lataxe, no good at hoarding coins for no purpose but hoard-lust and counting-orgasms.
The second half of your post describes what we called a "guitar jones" when I lived in San Diego, California in the 1980's. It basically means that no matter what guitar you are trying to learn on, you want to buy another one. The only cure is to go down to Tijuana and see the eight-year old street urchins who can pick with letter-perfect perfection Pink Floyd's "Money" from the beginning bass riff down through the third solo, on a Sears Stella with a plastic fretboard rescued from a garage dumpster. At that point, it will begin to dawn on you that regardless of what you do with your money, you just need to practice more to be good.
(And I'm the one trying to work something out! Ha!)
Just joshing and only half-serious, of course. I would never belittle someone learning to play guitar. After you work with the nylon string classical for a while, Lataxe, buy an electric guitar with an amplifier. Make sure the amplifier has a button that you can push to overdrive the preamp to a level of distortion - you'll need it later, trust me.
I had the guitar jones when I was in high school, but no money to make it go. When I got out of college, I satisfied the jones and realized that what I really wanted was the plainest guitar that was made the closest to the way I wanted a guitar to be. Lot of similarities to a plane with a tote, mouth done properly, but not much attention given to the rest.
I don't have many guitars now, but the ones I have are more plain than any of my "jones" guitars, with the exception of a telecaster that I kept. They are also more expensive.
Playing the solo to Money isn't much of a test of a guitar - it's something for someone a year in who hasn't practiced that much. If you start playing guitar as a 45 year-old bank executive, that might be something to shoot for....The solo to hangar 18 will leave the people with crappy guitars looking for another hobby.
Never could get into the classical guitars - the strings roll under your fingers when you try to bend them, but I'm impressed by the folks who have the mental fortitude to do something 10,000 times until it looks effortless and natural. Don't know why someone into that style would want to trade out for switching channels all the time.
Besides, woodworking and guitaring don't really mix at the same time unless you really have a lot of free time, or one is a living and the other a hobby.
If you could only have one woodworking tool, just one, what would it be?
I think I'd choose a hatchet. or a hand saw. I'll go with the saw. I could use a rock for a hammer, would that count as another tool?
Bret
From what I've watched of that show "Survivor," I always think, if I was on that show and could take one item in my personal gear, I think it would be a good chisel. Maybe a 3/4 inch E A Berg tanged bench chisel. Not only could I improve the shelter a little bit, but it would be much easier to carve the fake immunity idols with. And then, if push came to shove, backstabbing the other contestants would be quite a bit simpler,....
Advice
Mel my advice to you that in order to improve your cache' on these boards is to consume and to advocate consuming - both without ceasing.
Of all the things that frustrate me about woodworking (or ever did for that matter), achieving a good surface finish is way down the list. You?
Charles,
I haven't been back to this thread in a while. I see that you meant to send me a message, but addressed it to gdblake.
I have seen your sideboard. Excellent! That was the biggest surprise I have seen on Knots in years, and a very pleasant one! Now about your advice on being a consumer. I have been. I have acquired a nice set of hand tools, which I actually use. I have a nice half set of hollows and rounds, a Stanley 45, a wood try plane, an old wood moving fillester, some very nice LNs, including a #8 which I use daily, as well as a nice selection of measuring and marking tools, chisels, and a good selection of carving tools, a small set of saws, etc. I have been moving more toward hand tools, although I use a bandsaw for thicknessing. ( I am not interested in long sessions with a rip saw.) It has been fun learning to use these tools to actually make useful items which my wife and kids and grandkids and friends like. Right now, I am making a pair of chairs for grandchildren.
Have fun,
Mel
PS I'll start worrying about my cachet soon. :-) First, I gotta worry about making the pieces of the chairs fit together well.
Perhaps a more humble observation
Over on the Popular Woodworking site the editor has a blog entry called Test-Driving Exotic Infil Planes. It is the last two or three paragraphs at the end which many here might find illuminating. A plane, he quotes a well known plane maker, is just a jig to hold a chisel.
A lot of discussion seems to lost in cognitive dissonance of "here's why all that money i spent is worth it." And I'm sure the ones who get planes like that like them, like those that drive Rolls and Porches. I get along quite well with my old Mazda. It gets me where I need to go.
Peter
nothing wrong with Old Users
if they have some good care given them: A few pictures of "Mazdas" of mine...
I like 'em - look like strictly business to me.
Dog,
Nice set of planes. Some of them look like planes in my workshop. I have a no name spokeshave, a few woodies that I have remade, and some old planes that I have fettled. Also in my set are a Stanley #78 that I bought new in 1968 for about $12, a Sears Craftsman #5 that I bought new in 1968 for very few dollars that I recently turned into a foreplane, in the manner that Chris Schwartz recommends, with a radius on the blade of about 8".
The important thing is not the planes, but what you can make them do.
Nice post.
Mel
I have read the article on Test-Driving Infills planes
Peter:
Not only have I read the article, but I have actually used the Krenov plane and Ron Hock's plane discussed toward the end. The Krenov plane worked okay for general tasks, but wasn't much of a smoother. The Hock plane though (which Ron Hock made from one of his old plane kits) worked amazingly well. Better than vintage infills I've had a chance to use. For years I used old Stanley's (with the original irons) and got by just fine. I now prefer to use planes I have made in addition to my LN bevel up smoother and jack. They work better than the old Stanley’s.
I'm not interested in getting caught up in arguments about the price of any tool or what motivates someone to spend a lot of money on a tool. Why does it bother you what anybody is willing to pay just to own a particular tool, car, or anything else for that matter? (Just to put your mind at ease I drive a Ford Focus Wagon and really like it.) My original post had nothing to do with any of that.
I have gotten to use so many, that when it comes to planes I’m just not that easy to impress. Most can be made adequate with proper sharpening and tuning, but not all planes are created equal. All I wanted to do was share with those who may be interested just how special Ron Brese's stainless steel plane truly is. The craftsmanship was flawless and its performance clearly (given the responses to my post) has to be experienced to be appreciated.
gdblake
Contradiction
Charlie,
Yours looks to me like a top notch work.
The problem is that it is not just a fine example of your workmanship but also of your intellectual inconsistency (I know that woodworking and intellect do not always have to depend on each other - plenty of empirical evidence...).
You rant and berating fine planes because all you need is anything that would give you the desired surface quality. Now ponder at your side table: The drawer provides about one cubic foot of storage space, and the top 4- 5 sq. ft of space to put one's stuff on. I can meet those 'functional' requirements at a considerably lesser expenditure (competence, material, labor). I presume that your customer (even if it you) would experience somewhat greater satisfaction from your version than a lesser one.
The same applies to many (majority?) other items and activities in our lives. Our dog values his dog dish just the same, whether it is pretty or ugly. Can you do at least a wee bit gooder? Please, please.
P.S. I would address this post to Mel too, but he did not make the sideboard :)
Metod
Not a Big Deal
Obviously, you are welcome to form your own opinion about what tools you need for your woodworking. If this includes a large array of very expensive planes or just one or two premium hand planes then so be it. They do work. I've never asserted otherwise.
I still think people are often obssessed to the point of distraction with smoothing and smoothers.
Thank you all, time for a recap
Charles, Mel, Metod, Phillip, Jorge, Lataxe, Derek, David, and everyone else involved in this thread:
This thread has accomplished more than I could have imagined. Lets recap (sort of a top ten list).
1. The new Brese stainless steel plane got a lot of attention, which is what I intented in the first place.
2. Philip got to put in a clever plug for his planes. Can you take a swing through Atlanta on your way home, I'd love a chance to work with one of your offerings, I hear they are superb?
3. Mel got a reality check and it didn't even cost him a trip to yet another psychologist.
4. We seem to have come to a consensus that everyone can have whatever tools they want (cheap, expensive, or otherwise).
5. We also seem to have come to a consensus that owning tools doesn't mean you know how to use them.
6. We all got to see a beautiful example of Charles work, something many of you have wanted for a long time.
7. We learned that people aren't dogs, we like to be surrounded by esthetically pleasing things, furniture, tools, whatever.
8. Charles played nice and got an acknowledgement that indeed, when it comes to handplanes we focus too much on smoothers.
9. Some of us got to know each other a little bit better.
10. And, this thread sparked some of the old fire, interest, and fun that is Knots.
Group hug for jobs well done. Thanks all around for making this thread one to be remembered. Just maybe Knots isn't dead after all.
gdblake
Nice job, GD
GD,
You did a nice job with this thread. Somehow you did make some of the old Knots come back. Even CHARLES came back, and he did something he never does. He published a photo of his work. You achieved something that few have ever done.!!!!! Also, you ran it up to a number of posts that is rarely seen these days.
I enjoyed it. I received a private email from someone who didn't post to this thread, but who read the thread. It turns out that he is a professional woodworker who actually uses some boutique planes. Previous to that, I had never known one who did. I am going to talk to him more, since the idea seems foreign to me. It turns out that most of his work is making kitchens and built ins but he also gets commissions for single pieces of furniture - which allows him to use his high-end planes.
Glad that Philip got a chance to plug his tools. Too bad that Larry Williams and Mike Wentzloff and others didn't get a chance to chime in. We didn't see "routerman" either. Do you know routerman (Pat Warner)? If you don't, you should. He is a very interesting character, and he knows router systems better than anyone. His writing causes me to think.
Have fun.
Mel
Mel - a quick read of Karl Holtey's page mentions the same, that while most customers are of the executive or finance backed, that several are professional woodworker types.
I don't know why anyone would get so snobbish (this is not directed at you) to where they would refuse a better tool if it were within their means and they had a desire for it, as if they'd be looked down for not trying to make things as difficult and undesirable as possible to prove they are better than someone else.
The same message could then be said for furniture - why waste a bunch of money on furniture that has hours and materials in it that have nothing to do with the function of the furniture. This is the inconsistency lataxe referred to.
The other inconsistency being that charles does have some dirty little secrets in tools - expensive ones - that most people would not shell out the cake for. Especially the set of C&W H&Rs. Someone so obsessed with boasting of making so much with so little surely would've matched up a harlequin set of planes for $5 each and tuned them up as passable pairs rather than buying such finely made ready-to-go tools as Larry would make.
Surely the wood and customer would not know, as charles always says. It's nearly a mortal sin to just take the easy way out like that.
I actually think the fact that I'm rather happy to pay money to fill in a gap where needed proves, rather than disproves, my point. I'm neither broke, a tightwad, or anything like that at all. If I have a need for a tool I buy it. I think it's the "fill in a gap where needed" part that causes the most consternation with my posts.
I did check the used market, found that at that time it wasn't a viable option for me, so I wrote Larry a $1,200 check (which is a bargain now - aren't I brilliant?) and hired him to make the planes. It's called business. Pure, plain, and simple. Trust me, Larry is in business as a planemaker. And I love that about Larry. He's good at what he does and he delivers the product he says he will deliver. Those planes are not 'prized possessions' any more than the Stanley No. 3, the Stanley Handyman xcut saw that breaks down all my material, or any other tool in the shop. I'm happy to have them. I'm happy to have the functionality they provide. I don't have some sort of weird attachment to them like a child does a new toy. I expected them to be well made and to function as they were intended, even in my relatively unskilled hands. I've gotten better at using them. They have not let me down or disappointed me in any way.
Sorry but this just does not make sense.
So then your position is "do as I say not as I do". You chastise people for buying expensive planes, but when you need them you have no problem buying expensive planes. Like Mel, you seem to make some suppositions which are more a projection of yourself than what is really going on here. What makes you think that people buy expensive planes, puts them in a case and just takes them out to fondle them?
I only have two cheap planes, but I don't have any high end planes either. All of my planes are LV or LN. I wanted a Brese miter plane but at $1500 at the time I looked at them I thought I could use the money for setting up my shop so I bought a LN Nº 9. I am sure if you really wanted to you could have found less expensive alternatives to the planes you bought. You loose a lot of credibility when you pretend to be able to make a Bombe chest with a hatchet and whittling knife, agree with Mel that no "professional" woodworker would buy those high end planes to use day in and day out and then it turns out you have some of those planes you despise so much.
Do you think that $1,200 is a lot of money for eighteen brand new mostly hand made hollow and round molding planes? You do realize this equates to $66.67 per plane don't you?
Just checked and they now charge $3,500 for a set. I'd still buy them from Larry even at that price.
You must read in code or
$1200 is bordering on stolen goods (I realize that post wasn't directed at me).
"Do you think that $1,200 is
"Do you think that $1,200 is a lot of money for eighteen brand new mostly hand made hollow and round molding planes? You do realize this equates to $66.67 per plane don't you..."
Actually Charles; other than roughing out the billets and wedges on a table saw and jointer, and tapering the iron blanks on a milling machine, those planes are entirely hand made. $1,195 was a lot of money for a set of planes from an unknown maker when old sets could be bought for less than quarter of that. It was a huge leap of faith on your part to place that early order and I appreciate it. From the beginning we've had the best customers in the World. The most knowledgeable woodworkers, collectors, old tool dealers, historians, museum people and so many others have bent over backwards to help us in every way they could. I often look back and shake my head in amazement at how lucky we were and still are.
A lot has changed since those days when we worked four ten hour days at carpentry and three longer days at plane making. A lot more is done on machines but only when it doesn't compromise the tools in any way. We had a new machine arrive yesterday that will allow some of the calluses on our hands and fingers to fade away. I won't miss them.
All ribbing aside..
>> so I wrote Larry a $1,200 check <<
That's a pretty good deal. I don't think I'd make my own for that price.
They are considerable more expensive now I think. I had the planes in about three weeks time, maybe less if memory serves, certainly no longer than that. This was obviously before Larry's business really caught fire.
Aspects
Charlie,
"just one or two premium hand planes then so be it. "
My exact sentiments.
"I still think people are often obssessed to the point of distraction with smoothing and smoothers."
My exact sentiments, too.
It must be my poor level (well, I would not mind it to be higher...) of functional literacy that I read into your statements something that you maybe did not intend to convey. Now that you have said in in plain English, I got it. Please accept my apologies.
I am not a collector. I enjoy having the tools that I actually work with. If I upgrade something, I give away old items. More expensive items, those I put for sale (such as my old Sears jointer, drill press and table saw).
I do see, as of recently, another side to collecting - this from the point of the maker. When one can make a living , or as an occasional commission to a hobbyist, through fine craftsmanship, it is uplifting and ennobling. It does not matter whether the item is for a collector or for a user. The craftsmanship and the resulting satisfaction stand on their own.
There are people who 'are' by what they can do and those who 'are' by what they possess (often the collectors). Were not for the second type, the first one would not be busy enough to make a living. Sort of like no diseases, no need for physicians, no need for malpractice insurance, reduced need for the lawyers...:)
Best wishes,
Metod
Find the Thread
Ray, thanks for those thoughts. I'll see if I can find the thread you mentioned.
A little context
Thank you for bringing the plane to our attention. I have reacted more to the stream of comments than your intention . The following two paragraphs from the conclusion of Christopher Schwarz article on exotic infill planes may put a frame around a lot of the discussion above:
“If your planes meet the minimum basic requirements of a plane: a sharp cutter that’s firmly secured at an appropriate angle for the wood you’re working, the tool will do an excellent job. So if you think that buying a very expensive plane will make all lumber bow down before you and your tool, think again."
"But there are good reasons to buy custom planes – and they’re the same reasons people buy custom furniture when they could go to a discount store and buy an entire bedroom suite for $500. Some people like handmade and exquisite things. And thank goodness, because our mass-manufactured world can use a few handmade touches.”
So thank you for pointing out an exquisite thing. You are lucky to have been able to use it and appreciate it's qualities.
Peter
put them to work
I'd sharpen the blades and put those bitches back to work. Like you said, the liberty bell plane looks like it needs a new tote. Of course that didn't stop the original owner from using it.
Mike
They are all due for a good sharening...
I just need some shop time to do it. I have worked each of those old boys' tail off over the years. The liberty bell still does a very good job, even with the "new" tote. When I get a plane,or such, it is the unstanding that they will be put to work. How pretty or fancy they look like is secondary. The work they do comes first. Thanks for looking at my little stable, and thank you for your comments.
Tangents
Ed,
It is tempting to entice you down tinpan alley, since I am quite ignorant concerning both music and guitars. I am at that "know what I like (I think)" stage....
The classical guitar appealed precisely because (as you mention) it seems not just to encompass a great deal of music that rends at my emotive parts most deliciously but also provides a good platform from which to launch tangential adventures into jazz or even the stuff that invigorated my youthful self so long ago. It is also hard, hard, hard to get anywhere near "listenable". But how will it feel when I eventually have that breakthrough into "begining to be competant"? I will be wet with self-satisfaction!!
There's no feeling of dissatisfaction with the instrument I have now but rather a suspicion that a better instrument will push me (psychologically) harder. It's a bit like in cycling when you buy a sooper-dooper racing machine of lightness, grace and soft-click efficiency. You tend to try harder once aboard the gleaming thing - to go faster and seek better race-placings via sometimes astounding efforts - because you feel the need to live up to the bicycle and its capabilities. This trick really does work - something to do with using the quality of the tool (plane, bike, instrument) to increase the scope of your ambitions.
With the added bonus that the better tool also makes it that bit easier to adopt and achieve these higher ambitions.
As to any attachment to the tools.... Well, I confess to feeling attachment to them in the almost literal sense that they do become an extension of "me" (whatever that is) as they are used to create the stuff I use them to make - furniture, music, whatever cycle-racing creates (combat and its resolution?). But attachment to the idea of merely having them is a whole different thing. I also confess to feeling distain and even annoyance at collectors who put such tools in glass cases and only fondle them.. An unused tool is an abomination, like a piece of high art hidden in a rich man's vault, frustating the intent of the maker and denying the utility of its revelations to the rest of us.
Finaly, the "can't do everything well" contention of David Weaver. Well, there is some truth in the allegation "jack of all trades master of none". For myself, I have always felt satisfied with achieving some level of true competance at a thing and no desire to be a master, best in the world or any of those other heroic things that some lads aim for. I don't decry such high ambitions but for me personally a wide scope of abilities is of far more value than specialisation at the expense of the rest of life.
Lataxe, slow but tending to persist towards "sure".
Well good luck with it. I've got a book of Elizabethan music tabbed for classical guitar. Pretty fun to play music that Shakespeare would have been familiar with (sometimes even referenced in the plays) on a Fender Stratocaster.
I caught the beginning and the end of that post, but the middle was too long to read. I did see the part about not posting in the subject again. I'll believe that when this thread gets too old to stay on the board and floats away.
And, as far as the guitar comparison, I think you may be the one who started all of the tijuana stuff playing Money and relating that to someone who uses nice tools?
The whole guitar to woodworking made about as much sense as losing interest in golf because you became obsessed with how golf balls are made, especially considering you were far off, and that most professionals have instruments that for one reason or another are totally out of reach of hobbyist non-musicians - in some cases because even the makers wouldn't give us the time of day if we tried to get a hold of them.
I also don't know any professional woodworkers who use hand tools much (well, one does, he's half sculptor and half woodworker). My bit with this, if you've read SMC as you say you have, is that nobody here who is a hobbyist is trying to make a living at this, nor do we exist to try to do our best impression of someone who does. If it was about production and imitating professionals, we'd be pocket holing cabinet and door frames and putting in veneered MDF center panels, and worrying a lot more about how we could make an hourly rate on something vs. making it how we wanted to and not worrying about it.
I worked for parts of three years in a production cabinet factory. We made 5 cabinets a minute during production. I have no interest in trying to be someone else woodworking - especially someone who has to make a living doing it, or considering whether some board troll thinks I should or shouldn't be allowed to post my opinion.
I didn't think it would make sense to you David.
Here's a question for you - when you get buy a new tool is the first thing that runs through your mind something like "God, I can't wait to use this to build something." Or do you think of something else?
If I decided tomorrow that my woodworking required a Karl Holtey plane I'd write Karl a check for whatever amount he needed to put the job on the schedule and then I'd wait for the plane. Or maybe I'd go with a Brese plane. Dunno. If I needed it I would buy it. I don't think I need one, do you? If so, exactly why do you think I should have one? If you find them to be works of art, why should I buy one of them instead of a painting or a sculpture from some well known artist? I already have a tool with which to smooth lumber. If I'm buying art, why tool art?
FWIW, my house is full of Arts and Crafts furniture of my own making and also some Philip Clisset chairs - the real things, not reproductions. Frankly, I'd rather own the chairs instead of a Holtey plane. I know my wife certainly sees it that way.
Whose furniture might we find in your home, if you don't mind me asking?
>>Whose furniture might we
>>Whose furniture might we find in your home?<<
A combination of mine and some amishmen. I don't have high taste in furniture (or any interest in high taste furniture, so you'll just have to hold whatever you're saving for a peeing contest), I just don't want laminates in my house, and I don't want any veneer, marquetry, banding or carved items. Closest that's allowed would be something on a guitar or banjo - and I have zero interest in making either those, i'd rather play them.
I don't remember what the last "new" tool I got was, and what I thought when I got it out of the box. Wait..I did get an infill kit not that long ago. I'll let you know what I think of it once i'm done.
Oh, just remembered, I got a $10 high angle smoother, too, and I guess a couple of months ago, I bought some "better" woodies to replace the doggish woody jointer and fore plane I was using. I think my thoughts on the woody jointer revolved somewhere around "how am I going to get rid of the old ones without throwing them away", and I was pleasantly surprised to find the jointer that I paid $25 for was a JT Brown jointer almost unused. I don't pretend to understand collector tool values, so it's just a trivial fact, it works well as much as i've used it so far. Not so great on hard maple, but nothing light does, either.
I got a couple of gimlet bits coming today, I damaged one last week. I'll try to contain my excitement on those, too.
I don't have any brese or holtey planes, so I can't relate to your notion of collecting them as art. As far as what you should buy next, maybe you should answer that for yourself and worry less about other peoples' opinions, and less about flinging yours onto them. Maybe spend that mental capital on figuring out why you don't like to golf, because that's a terrible thing.
Still very happy to have them. Happy to have the capability they provide.
So Charles, you really are a dog!
Charles:
A lucky dog that is. Congratulations on the forsight of ordering a set of hollows and rounds from Larry early on. I would love to have a set, but fear they may prove wasted in my hands (regardless of price). What few custom mouldings I have attempted were done with my Record 405 multi-plane. As always, you are just full of surprises.
gdblake
High end Tools
What's wrong with having tools that are high quality, easy to look at, and work extreamly well?. I am an aircraft elecctrician, have been for over 35 years. My aircraft tools are a cross of Stanley junk, Craftsman barely acceptable, and Snap-on/Mac tools. Which do you think I prefer to reach for first? As a practical matter, the Snap-on or Mac tools are designed better, fit the hand perfectly and work first time, every time. They are over priced and probably over-rated. Yet, every professional aircraft worker and car mechanic regularly shells out the bucks for these tools. Beginners in my trade usually get the Craftsman equilivants and upgrade as their skills and financial situation improves. Becoming an aircraft worker will definately turn a person into a tool geek. We constantly haunt the Snap-on and Mac tool trucks, hand tool websites, Sears (Craftsman tools) and even Harbour Freight (shudder), looking for that wrench/socked/ratchet/widget that will make the job easier or faster. Ten years ago, I bought a six inch Snap -on mini ratchet for $42.00. That was an outrageous price, but it saved me at least 2 hours on a job that usually took at least six hours. My point is that if a better tool exists that makes any job easier or just more comfortable, if you can afford it, buy it. I don't need my Woodjoy square, I have other el cheapo squares that do the job, but I do enjoy using it!
Wow! Too long didn't read the WHOLE thing but wow, what a great conversation! I learned a little, a lot, something, nothing :)
And this is a zombie thread so I'll add nothing to it other than thanks for the great woodworking conversation.
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