Replies

1. 
   Samson | Aug 31, 2008 02:11am | #1

   What type of wood it is?

   How are you holding it? planing stop or tail vise on your bench?

   Am I understanding you right that you are tying to flatten a wide face of a 6" x 3.5' board?

   Is the board bowed such that on the other side the ends are high?

   How thick a shaving are you taking?

   Are you planing with or across the grain?

   This information may help in analyzing what you are experiencing.

1. 
   gmpatterson | Aug 31, 2008 03:44am | #3

   Hi, Samson,

   Answers follow:

   What type of wood it is?  Birch

   How are you holding it? planing stop or tail vise on your bench?  Planing stop

   Am I understanding you right that you are tying to flatten a wide face of a 6" x 3.5' board?  Correct

   Is the board bowed such that on the other side the ends are high?  No.  The other side presents the same problem - a high spot in the middle.

   How thick a shaving are you taking?  As thin as I can and still have it be one piece (not dust)

   Are you planing with or across the grain?  I am planing with the grain with the jointer, diagonal with the jack to remove the high spot.

   This information may help in analyzing what you are experiencing.

   Thanks for responding.

   Greg

1. 
   Samson | Aug 31, 2008 03:57am | #4

   Okay, Greg.  I'll just mention everything I can think of, so pleased don't be offended if any of it seems obvious or too elementary:

   - Even with a jointer's length, you can follow a hill up and down over 3.5 feet

   - That said, if your jack got the face flat or concave and your jointer made it a hill again, it's got to be your technique.

   - It's easy as a beginner to let the tail drop as you start.  You need to concentrate on applying downward pressure on the knob as you begin a stroke and on the tote as you finish.

   - If you are starting with a reasonably rough board, don't be afraid to start with fairly thick shavings.

   - Consider your stroke - presumably you are taking a step as you plane that length?  If so, concentrate on being balanced and keeping an even smooth downward pressure on the plane.

   Edited 8/30/2008 11:42 pm ET by Samson

1. 
   derekcohen | Aug 31, 2008 05:45am | #5

   Hi Greg

   Samson makes good points, and Charles likely has more experience than most in this area.

   I have always done all my flattening and most of my thicknessing with handplanes. You seem to know what to do, but I will mention a couple of others factors that have not been emphasized.

   Firstly, it is really vital that the work is held firmly. I don't say "flat" because you do not want to induce curvature as a result of force from a plane or a vise. You stated that you are planing into a stop. That says to me that you are planing forwards (as planing sideways or diagonally would force the board across your bench). The "hill" that Samson mentioned will not disappear if this is how you are working.

   Here is a board I was four-squaring a couple of weeks ago (for a lathe stand). It is a rough sawn ex-roofing beam - a little twisted and cupped from the heat, but otherwise reasonably straight. 5' long and 10" wide x 3 or 4" thick.

   View Image

   I did all the work with a cambered #5 1/2 working diagonally. Even at the weight of the beam/board, a forward stop is not enough and I have others along the far edge.

   View Image

   Work with scribbled pencil lines to gauge what is going on (you can just make it out at the far end). Keep replenishing them. Use (reasonably) straight edges and windind sticks to monitor (I use one of my 2' long winding sticks as a straight edge).

   When there is a hump, as you note, then square your planing more. This is where planing straight across the board is useful. I always do this when preparing tabletops or similar.

   View Image View Image

   Flattening boardsrequires attention to both the length and the width.

   Regards from Perth

   Derek

2. 
   BossCrunk | Aug 31, 2008 02:16am | #2

   Put that board down and try another.  If you are able to four square a different board then I'd say the one you were having trouble with some sort of twisting stress and the board just kept getting propellored.  It can happen.

   Are you using winding sticks to check for wind?  (pronounced like "wind your watch")

3. 
   joinerswork | Aug 31, 2008 04:47pm | #6

   Greg,

   I'd guess that it is your technique; that you are somehow taking more off the ends of the board than the meiddle.  You could be bearing down more at the beginning and end of the cut, and easing up a bit as you are cruising down the pike.  Try to envision taking a scooping cut (even tho the length of the plane will not allow that) as you push along the length of the board- that is, bear down more in the center of the board and ease up at the ends.

   Also, it may be that your bench top has a dip or hollow in it, or is itself flexing, and  that is allowing the center of the board to spring downward under the pressure of the plane, and rise up again after each pass.  Especially if the board you are working is fairly thin, 1" or less, and given the fairly narrow width you are working.

   Ray

4. 
   WillGeorge | Aug 31, 2008 05:15pm | #7

   First off I have to say..

   I rarely use most of my hand tools. NOT that they are bad. My routers, tablesaw, jointer and drum sander work for me..

   I will use hand tools when nothing better for the job at hand...

   I have a OLD #7 Stanley/Bailey . I love it!

   I kept noticing a high spot in the middle so I focused on flattening that section.

   I have no idea.. I would have just took out one of my trusty old hand scrapers and leveled that section and..  carry on.. and carry on... Reminds me of an old song!

   My first thought..          Just THIS 'stick' or all you work?

   I'd bet NOT you. Wood is wood and WILL try your patience!

5. 
   dkellernc | Aug 31, 2008 05:29pm | #8

   A couple of thoughts:

   Is your bench flat? (check it with your straightedge - we're not talking microns here, but there should be no obvious dip or hollow (or a crown, for that matter).  If it's not flat, the force you're using with the #7 could be flexing the middle of the board down into a hollow, and when you release the pressure and check it with a straightedge, you find a crown where the hollow was on your bench.

   Check the sole of the #7 with the same straightedge.  It's highly unlikely, but it isn't impossible that you've a bowed plane.

   (Most likely) - insufficient transfer of force between the front and rear totes as you plane.  One way to absolutely ensure that you're doing it correctly is to drive the plane solely with the front tote as you start the planing stroke (just lightly keeping your rear hand on the plane), and finish the planing stroke by letting go of the front tote and driving it off of the board with the rear tote.  You might consider reading Chris Schwarz' blog entry "tricking the banana" at http://blog.lostartpress.com/2008/06/01/Tricking+The+Banana.aspx

6. 
   bakesale1 | Sep 01, 2008 06:45am | #9

   Excuse me if I'm restating the above. Have you tried winding sticks? I find them to be indispensable for flattening faces by hand.

7. 
   roc | Sep 01, 2008 11:07pm | #10

   Hi gmpatterson.

   Way to go for sticking with this. Learning to master hand planes can be frustrating and time consuming and expensive.

   Here are my two cents. Have several blades sharpened and ready to change out. Thank you Mr Ian Kirby!

   They should be configured to the appropriate edge geometry. Study the old Fine Wood Working articles specifically #39 page 65

   The next thing I am going to say is really important when using a very wide blade such as your #7 so get this:

   For the initial flattening you MUST have a lot of curve to the blade edge. Why? because when the blade dulls a bit it rides on the surface and does not penetrate as deep as before unless you are a massive person and using exceptional downward pressure. Which is a waste of energy. Candle wax or oil the sole when it gets hard to push.

   Think of it this way: At this point (curved blade edge) we are effectively using a narrow blade in a huge #7 plane due to lack of horse power and downward force so we can maintain needed penetration. Your shavings will be an inch wide or so but your board will become and stay flat. Doesn't make up for bad form though.

   Now. When you take your cut with the semi dull edge it takes a good bite when it hits the first edge of the wood but then rises up sort of like one of those hydrofoil boats because it is difficult to maintain that bite as you go along. Not enough down ward force backed up by rigidity in your arms. This can cause the curvature in the surface you and I have experienced. More wood taken at one end of the board even with good technique.

   BE SURE TO TRIM THE ENDS OF THE BOARD SO THERE IS NO GRIT FROM THE LUMBER YARD LEFT ON THE BOARD OR YOUR BLADE WILL DULL IN THE FIRST FEW PASSES !

   If you have a relatively non curved blade edge, like what is desirable in a finish plane blade it takes more force to penetrate the wood and keep the sole in contact with the wood. Get a few blades and sharpen them flat and curved and test this theory for your self.

   So then you may notice your plane has stopped cutting as if the wood has gone concave but your straight edge says it is convex. What is going on!? You may at this point turn the blade depth a bit more and you can start getting shavings again. This makes the wood surface bulge even worse, resist this and put in a sharp blade. Touching up the edge does not help either you will need to do a proper sharpening.

   Also see Coarse, Medium & Fine info by Christopher Schwarz basically he says to use that curved blade configuration and take relatively deep cuts (but use progressively more accurate planes and less curve in the blades) right up until finishing then use the straight edge (not curved much) wide blade. You still need to change the dulled blade out for a sharp one. Even more often for your finishing cuts.

   I highly recommend a sharpening jig. Veritas is good with the accessory to set the blade protrusion and the curved roller. The part of the blade that is critical is microscopic. Without a jig you are attempting to do precision microscopic metal machining by eye and feel. Does that sound fun? I know there are plenty of people here that will disagree. They are tougher than I am. And more experienced ! I will admit that. Learn the jig and when you are happy with your wood projects then go for the speed of no jig.

   I was forced to learn the finer points to hand planes when I built my work bench from purple heart wood doing all the planing with hand planes. And no I do not recommend you duplicate my adventure unless you enjoy marathons and english channel swims etc. in which case yooouuuu willlllll beeeee in pig heavennnnnn ! ! ! !

   Sorry to say the same things several times but all of these factors must be considered:

   Blade edge width verses downward force, rigidity and horse power
   Sharpness/geometry/knowing when to change out dull blades
   No grit in wood.

   Forget one and the board gets cut convex.

   A final comment: The bevel up planes by Veritas are very very useful for the ultra hard woods including their jointer. I would rather look at a Lie Nielson but for the purple heart I grab the Veritas for flat sole and rigidity. I have many of both LN and V.

   Thank you for keeping the old ways going and pass them on if possible.
   Each one teach one we old metal machinists say.

1. 
   gmpatterson | Sep 02, 2008 01:20am | #11

   Hi, everyone,

   Thank you all so much for taking the time to respond.  After trying out most of your advice, I can see that it is going to still take me a while to figure all of this out.

   Roc,

   Is there a way to take some of the work out of all of the blade changing by using multiple planes?  I have a No5, No7 and a Veritas scrub plane.  The scrub plane has an extreme curviture in the blade (in fact, I can barely get more than a half-inch wide strip out of it without either tipping my bench or sliding it across the floor.)  I am wondering if I can use the scrub for basic flattening, the No. 5 (with a less curved blade) for refinement and then the No.7 for a more final flattening (I neither have nor really know the full purpose of a smoother yet but I would imagine that it would be the final plane in the progression - or a scraper.)  Would that meet what you are getting at or am I missing the point?

   Thanks,

   Greg

1. 
   lwilliams | Sep 02, 2008 02:07am | #12

   Greg,Skip the scrub plane. It's just too aggressive. I don't understand all the sharpening people are talking about. You should be able to get quite a lot of use out of each sharpening unless the wood has been drug through a sand pile or something. How are your sharpening skills?99% of stock preparation should be done with a fore (or jack) plane with about a 10" radius curve to the cutting edge and a trying plane with much less camber. Have you reduced your stock to rough length and width before trying to prep it? Are you looking at your stock critically to see what needs to be done? Don't just hack away, use winding sticks and a straight edge.

1. 
   gmpatterson | Sep 02, 2008 03:35am | #14

   I am looking at the stock with a straight edge and winding sticks but at this point I know little of what to do with what I see.  Thanks to all of the advice I received I have removed the banana curve from the board but now the starting edge is a high point and so is a spot about 8" from the end of the board.  I am imagining that I am not pushing down hard enough at the start now and that I am letting up a bit before the end so I am trying to correct that.  As I said in a previous post, I am thinking that I just need to keep going at this for a while and figure out most of it as I go.  Based on the advice I have received so far, it seems like everyone has developed their own method.  I am going to focus on making some shavings and develop mine.  I will give you guys a shout when I come across something that I can't figure out.

   Thanks again,

   Greg

1. 
   Samson | Sep 02, 2008 04:14am | #17

   Hang in there, Greg.  You've had a lot of advice thrown at you.  You're right that many folks have found there own ways, and also that you will find yours.  I just want to tell you that this isn't brain surgery.  Folks with tools much more promitive than yours, with blade likely less sharp than yours, and benches less flat than yours, managed just fine.  You just need to figure out the muscle coordination and attack angles a bit, and I wager you'll have a eureka moment.  Good luck.

2. 
   lwilliams | Sep 02, 2008 04:52am | #19

   I think you're on the right track, Greg. Just remember the length of your planes works with you. When you start getting close to where you want to be with the fore or try plane the length of the shavings will let you know.

2. 
   roc | Sep 02, 2008 03:28am | #13

   Greg,Heck yes you got it ! Different blade curves different planes. Shaving width is quite narrow with scrub like you describe. You can get into trouble with the scrub either taking off too much or getting tear out that you then must plane down to the bottom of the "holes" you made.The advantage is if you have a lot of wood to take off here and there but less than you want to attempt to bandsaw off the hard way then we be scrubbin !It is a very light tool and you won't feel bad when you see all those scratches on the bottom of it that would have been on your better planes if you used them to hog off the big hunks.You MUST make your bench immovable. Bolt it to the floor, put all your kids iron body building weights on a shelf underneath, jam your bench in the corner of the garage . . .something.Yea all the sharpening was worst case scenario planing long hard boards. But ! Sharpening is key. If your edge is sharp but the wedge angle of the blade is rounded that sharp edge may not be fully engaging the surface being planed and so you get the rounding of the board/cutting deeper at the start of the cut but not in the middle of the board.Use of a smoother is to put that mirror finish in the surface after the thing is totally as flat as you care to make it. See James Krenov books for why and how. Expect to remove no significant thickness with a smoother unless the blade is curved and the throat opened up.With the tools you describe the Coarse, Medium & Fine info may be all you need. You get to see the rhythm to work in with Chris's videos. That helped me. With out that mind set one spends more time than necessary.Since you are able to respond are you for sure putting shims of some sort under any high areas between the bottom of your board and the top of your bench? This prevents the board sagging or teetering. I keep a box of thin card board, thick solid card board, paper, door hanging wedges and what ever else to shim with.

   Edited 9/1/2008 9:35 pm by roc

1. 
   gmpatterson | Sep 02, 2008 03:38am | #15

   Not shimming yet.  I will have to keep an eye out for that.  Thanks, roc.

1. 
   roc | Sep 02, 2008 04:29am | #18

   Ok sounds like you are a person who does not enjoy reading about this stuff. Heaven help you!If I am wrong
   A really great all in one inexpensive book is Nick Engler's Woodworking Wisdom ISBN 7621-0179-2 and then build a library around what he doesn't tell you.Otherwise or in addition take one of the big time classes from Garrett Hack, Steve Latta, or Philip Lowe in no particular order.I studied and struggled with this by my self hard core for more than five years before I was happy with my skills and I love to study and read. This was after, in theory, learning it in high school in the mid seventies. It still helps a lot to watch someone who KNOWS how. I think it is getting to be a rare enough skill you may need to travel to see it done right.>Each their own way< Actually this is all more than a thousand years old and it is hard to improve on the basics. God is in the details. Learn the basic details.You are right! What are we doing yackin' when we could be in the shop!

2. 
   Huckleberry | Sep 02, 2008 03:45am | #16

   Two things hit me reading your comments:1) your bench must be FLAT and solid! No two ways about it. Put your straight edge on the bench and check it out.
   2) Your blade must be sharp. Can you shave with it?Huck.