Replies

1. 
   saschafer | Mar 14, 2008 06:17pm | #1

   You want an oil that doesn't interfere with the evaporation of the alcohol or combine with the shellac. Mineral oil is relatively inert and good for that purpose. Other oils will work (there is a style of French polishing that uses linseed oil, for example), but I don't think there are significant advantages to any other readily-obtained oils.

   There are some high-tech variations on French polishing that use volatile oils. This eliminates the clearing step where you remove the residual oil from the surface. But I don't know of any place that sells the necessary oils by themselves--I've only seen them as part of a ready-mix French polishing concoction.

   Mineral oil and alcohol don't really mix. If you put them together in a container and shake it up, it looks kind of like clear salad dressing. If you then dip your finger in it and rub your fingertips together, you can feel the lubrication effect of the oil as the alcohol evaporates.

   -Steve

    

1. 
   blewcrowe | Mar 14, 2008 06:23pm | #2

   Thank you Steve. That gives me a little better understanding.

   I would like to persue this idea of shellac with linseed, just for curiosity sake. Would you know, does Flexner or Jewitt have some web info in regards to it?

1. 
   saschafer | Mar 14, 2008 06:43pm | #3

   Jeff describes a linseed oil/shellac finishing technique in this article from FWW#186: http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/FWNPDF/011186052.pdf. It's not quite the same as French polishing, but the end result is similar.

   -Steve

    

1. 
   blewcrowe | Mar 14, 2008 07:33pm | #4

   Thank you, sir.

2. 
   blewcrowe | Mar 14, 2008 07:41pm | #5

   Excellent article, and a great tool for a last minute project.

   Tell me, why is it that all my projects turn out to be last minute projects. Is it something in the water, or just a simple misalignment of the universe?

1. 
   saschafer | Mar 14, 2008 07:56pm | #6

   It's the tannic acid from the Pine Barrens.

   -Steve

    

2. 
   blewcrowe | Mar 14, 2008 08:20pm | #7

   I'm a Piney. From my head to my hiney.

2. 
   hammer1 | Mar 15, 2008 04:25am | #8

   This is one of the better tutorials I've seen on traditional french polish. 100% olive oil is used.
   http://www.milburnguitars.com/frenchpolish.html

   Beat it to fit / Paint it to match

1. 
   SteveSchoene | Mar 15, 2008 02:03pm | #9

   It is a very detailed and clear explanation.  It is interesting how many variants you will find, all ending at the same or nearly the same final result. 

   I don't really like using t-shirt material on the pad, preferring a smoother fabric such as white cotton sheeting.   It's not a clear cut choice.  It's easier to avoid wrinkles with the stretchy knit than the sheeting and wrinkles can create streaks. 

   The use of alcohol to remove excess oil is very traditional and works, but can be the riskiest of steps.  It's a lot easier to use naptha to remove the oil.  Naptha is effective, but offers no risk of disturbing shellac from earlier sessions.   

    

1. 
   hammer1 | Mar 15, 2008 06:07pm | #13

   I read some accounts about the days of the craft guilds in Europe. You could identify what people did for work either by their clothing or physical appearance. The polishers all had an arm like Popeye. I wouldn't want to use a traditional french polish on anything other than a fine musical instrument or a small object like a jewelry box. It's a ton of work to do it correctly and things can go wrong. Some folks think they are french polishing but they are just padding shellac. It takes a lot of work to amalgamate the shellac and you can only do a few inches at a time. Considering the work, it's not that durable a finish. That's why violinists hold the instrument with a handkerchief, they don't want sweat and oils to get on the finish.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match

1. 
   SteveSchoene | Mar 16, 2008 01:52am | #14

   The handkerchief isn't for the varnish on the violin, there is a chin rest that is made of varying materials from ebony to plastic.  The hankerchief is to prevent skin irritations, even allergic reactions, from chin rests damp with oil and sweat. 

   Besides, violin varnish, which includes spirit varnishes based upon shellac, is a much discussed subject that is very MUCH more complicated than simple French polishing. 

   French polishing does take some effort, but it's not so arduous as to be overwhelming, especially compared to other alternatives such as applying three coats of varnish, sanded between each coat, and then after a months wait rubbing out to a gloss with several grits of sand paper followed by a couple of polishing compounds.   

1. 
   hammer1 | Mar 17, 2008 02:06pm | #15

   Hi Steve, In my younger days, I worked for a guitar shop. That's where I learned about french polishing. This was in the early 60's when information was rather limited. You learned from word of mouth and example, neither of which may have been correct. The same can be said today despite the info highway. Most of my job was sweeping floors but I wanted to learn to finish. The first attempts at french polishing were done on my own cheap guitar. I did get the hang of it, sort of. I was also young enough to work all night, make a mess and start over. There was no shortage of repair and refinishing work in the shop but I wasn't allowed to touch anything of value.It was many years later before I even saw an expensive Italian violin and that may be questionable. There is a lot of mysticism about violins and their finishes. French polishing with shellac was not used on the early 16th-17th century instruments. Little is actually known about those cooked up varnishes but the lore and alchemy is very interesting. If you are ever fortunate enough to see a rare instrument, they don't look like much. Those varnish finishes are extremely delicate, looking at them may cause it to flake off. Musicians that own these rare violins don't touch the finish. This isn't what we are talking about, though. French polish may not have come around until shellac was available in the west, perhaps the mid to late 1800's. The value of it is partly due to the very thin nature of the finish, one that doesn't effect the sound of the instrument, or so the story goes. I'm no expert on french polishing or on rare instruments. I can tell you it is not very durable but the instruments get handled and played for many hours every day. Owners of nice instruments are very protective of the finishes, whatever they may be, trumpets to guitars, rare to common. Even beginners are careful to wipe off any fingerprints before casing their instruments, regardless of the finish material. Body oils and whatever else is on your fingers mark finishes. As a side note, removing oil from a french polish can be done with flour instead of a solvent. I understand some prefer a drying oil like linseed which, apparently, becomes part of the finish. If somebody wants to learn french polishing, it would be wise to start on something of little or no value. Some will be very pleased with mediocre results but a great polish will take a lot of practice.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match

2. 
   MaxYak | Mar 17, 2008 09:18pm | #16

   "Even beginners are careful to wipe off any fingerprints before casing their instruments, regardless of the finish material."

   Somewhat off-topic, but in my experience, many beginners take better care of the finishes on their instruments than most pros do :-).  It's not at all uncommon for a pro's instrument's finish to be in pretty bad shape, at least where the hands usually touch it.  On the other hand, a pro's strings, slides, valves, pads, whatever, are usually immaculately maintained.

       MikeTo the man with a hammer, all the world is a nail.

3. 
   saschafer | Mar 17, 2008 09:34pm | #17

   I recently saw Jeff Coffin (of Béla Fleck and the Flecktones) in concert, and the lacquer on both of his saxophones was all but nonexistent, so both instruments had a dull, frosted appearance.

   -Steve

    

4. 
   MaxYak | Mar 18, 2008 12:59am | #19

   If the lacquer was completely gone, that was almost certainly intentional rather than a lack of care.  It isn't uncommon for brass and sax players to have the lacquer stripped from their horns, either because they think it deadens the sound of the horn or because no lacquer looks better than lacquer in bad shape.

       MikeTo the man with a hammer, all the world is a nail.

5. 
   hammer1 | Mar 17, 2008 10:15pm | #18

   Ever see Willie Nelson's Martin N-20, "Trigger"?http://photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=1046936Beat it to fit / Paint it to match

6. 
   harrycu | Mar 18, 2008 01:03am | #20

   "Ever see Willie Nelson's Martin N-20, "Trigger"?"

   My once shiney black acrylic Ibanez doesn't look much better. :^)

   Harry

    Following the path of least resistance makes rivers and men crooked.

7. 
   danmart | Mar 18, 2008 02:28am | #21

   The handkerchief isn't for the varnish on the violin, there is a chin rest that is made of varying materials from ebony to plastic.  The hankerchief is to prevent skin irritations, even allergic reactions, from chin rests damp with oil and sweat.

   Its also worth noting- the violin neck in not varnished on most finely built instruments. The use of a cloth is endless I guess. There was a video here on the home page from a violin making school in Chicago that touched on the finish methods. Interesting viewing if you have a few minutes.

   dan

8. 
   jbtx | Mar 19, 2008 02:45am | #22

   i am a novice/hobbyist guitar builder/restorer and have completed one guitar with french polish. it is a challenging technique, especially if you haven't seen the process "live" or seen the finished (ouch!) product by an experienced fp'er. but it is a VERY forgiving finish, you can strip it off in minutes and start all over again if you have to (let me tell you how i know this... ;o) ). it is also one of the least toxic finishes and can be done in your home without explosion proof lighting, spray booth with gigantic exhaust system, etc. it's also really cool once you get the "ghost trail" going. i think it's worth exploring. if you get the hang of it it's probably one of the quicker finish processes around.
   - and do learn to use both arms!best,
   vivian

9. 
   danmart | Mar 19, 2008 05:14am | #23

   Vivian

   Your preachin' to the choir here. I have been french polishing or more accurately padding shellac for 25 years. I have so many containers of different lacs I can't keep up with them. The whole shellac family has so many advantages in most situations that its hard to believe more folks aren't using it.

   There are a couple things I have not tried: guitars and rocking chairs. Being a guitar player(acoustic steel string finger picker) I am picky. No pun. Over the years I have seen some really great looking guitars that just don't sound right. It's a steep learning curve but it sure looks like fun.

   Keep on rubbin'

   dan

10. 
    jbtx | Mar 19, 2008 08:57pm | #24

    Hey Dan,

    I appreciate your comments!  Heck, if you are a fine woodworker and play acoustic it sounds (ouch) like guitar building is in your future!

    Be well!  - Vivian

2. 
   blewcrowe | Mar 15, 2008 02:48pm | #10

   Olive oil? Extra virgin?

3. 
   blewcrowe | Mar 15, 2008 03:08pm | #11

   Wow, just read it. I've never seen such an explanation. Thanks much.

1. 
   SteveSchoene | Mar 15, 2008 05:14pm | #12

   There is a chapter in Wood Finishing With George Frank that gives excellent instructions including an excellent set of pictures of the process.  This book, by one of the true masters of the finishers art, is one I strongly recommend--it gives an idea of the creativity that is possible.