I’m a relative beginner trying to upgrade my small basement workshop. I have a basic 10” compound mitre saw and recently acquired an old DeWalt MDC RAS, which despite some flaking paint and an exciting lack of modern safety features is clearly a much higher quality machine than the mitre saw. It’s been suggested that I put the mitre saw in the attic and rely on the RAS. This seems to be good advice, but I was wondering if anyone could think of reasons not to do this. I could probably find the space for both, but given space limitations it would make things easier.
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To anticipate the next question, I am planning to build a cabinet along one wall of my shop, where the RAS was going to live. If I keep both saws, I’d like to put them in line with each other, so that the fences and table heights line up and I can minimize the total counter length I have to dedicate to the two machines. If I only need the RAS, that simplifies construction considerably.
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Thanks.
Replies
I've got both in my basement. The RAS is more powerful, so it is used for rough cutting boards to length, etc. The 12" CMS is portable and goes on site. It excels at cutting any angle you need and is perfect for trim work, crown, etc. I've got the 12" double laser delta and love the laser.
I used a RAS for the first 10 years as a woodworker, but don't recommend them to anyone. I managed to do some decent work with it, but was never very comfortable with it's operation - or it's ability to do precision cutting.
I got a TS about 20 years ago and - after I got it set up right - the RAS sat in the corner collecting junk and getting dusty until I got rid of it. (I'm convinced that the guy at the Goodwill dropoff station loaded it into his pickup as soon as I was out of sight. - lol)
There were a few times when I almost wished I still had it, but after getting a Makita LS1013 SCMS a couple of years ago, I can't find any reason to want another RAS.
My two cents worth.
I also have a RAS and CMS. Both are quite ols, the 10" RAS being the first stationary power tool I bought. There are those who will tell you that these saws are inaccurate but I have had different experiences with mine. I took a lot of time to make sure it was set up properly and I never change it from 90° to the fence. If I need to cut an angle I angle the board not the blade, which is not all that often.
With proper hold downs I use it for dadoing as I can lower the blade in increments, is easily controlled and I can see what I'm doing all the time. The first few times can be a bit unnerving with all that metal flying about but I have gotten used to it.
View Image
One major issue with the RAS and CMS is that they spew sawdust all over the place. What I have done is to construct some wings that fit inot the space behind the RAS and installed a downdraft connector that connects to the DC. I just completed it and haven't had a chance to test it out but this may give you some ideas at least.
The CMS will sit just in front of the sawblad in the pic above. I will have to devise a method to raise the work to the height of the CMS but that should be easy to do with some fold down fixture(s).
Pleas excuse the appearance, I'm in the middle of construction. There will be a window in the space above the RAS/CMS Station.
Hope this helps,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 2/21/2008 3:13 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Here's another pic with the CMS.
View Image
The CMS supports will be to the left of the CMS attached to the bench on the left.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob ,
For years, I had a similar setup in my shop to the one you're proposing - the miter saw situated to the left of the radial arm. However, instead of having it sit up on the bench, as yours seems to be headed, I made a platform to sink it into the top surface, even with the top. That way it always stayed in place and I never had to move it.
The advantage of this is that you can put heavy boards on the entire "wing" of the cutting table without having to move the miter saw first. And there's also no need to raise the work up to the level of the miter saw when you need to do finer or smaller cutting. In my opinion, it's worth the effort to make it work like this. As I grow older I'm ever more appreciative of things that do not have me moving heavy objects around in the shop...
Keep us updated on your shop's progress. I like your "draft hood" behind the radial saw. Is that a patented design?
Zolton
* Some people say I have a problem because I drink hydraulic brake fluid. But I can stop any time I want.
Zolton,
There is very fine print in the patent that states if someone offers you and idea that will improve the design of the whole package then I can trade the idea in lieu of payment in cash. Some patent attorneys actually have common sense!
Your idea made me kinda slap myself up side the heed! So fair swap?
I recently curtailed my consumption of alcohol; maybe I should consider brake fluid as a replacement! As you so aptly put it, one can stop anytime they want................
Best Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
Fair swap indeed! I'll be sure to pass on any royalties to you, too. Stand out there by your mailbox and wait for them to roll in. Shouldn't be too cold up there at this time of year, eh?
Zolton* Some people say I have a problem because I drink hydraulic brake fluid. But I can stop any time I want.
Zolton,
Cold?
Nah, I think we're headed for a heatwave this weekend. Yesterday it was -16°F when I left for work; today it was only -8°F and it's supposed to be in the mid 20s tomorrow!
Gawd, Spring is in the air!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Zolton,
How close did you have the two saws? I was thinking along the same lines of having the tables and fences align, but in my mind the saws were several feet apart. That's why I was getting nervous about space.
Right now, based on all the feedback it does seem like keeping both saws is the way to go.
Poplarguy,
When I had my chopsaw and radial arm set up, they were mounted almost side by side. The shelf I had the chopsaw sitting on was, in fact, partially attached to the shelf that held the radial arm (I had long ago detached the radial arm saw from the flexible sheet metal stand it came with). It is a bit of a problem getting the tables all lined up perfectly in terms of height, but worth the effort it takes.
I never bothered to affix the chopsaw to the shelf it sat on. It slid back and forth easily on the shelf (well, in and out would be a better description). This allowed me to shove it back and out of the way (or remove it completely) when I was cutting something big or awkward on the radial arm. If I needed to cut a run of items to a stop on the chopsaw, I just clamped its base to the shelf in order to lock it in position. Plus, I could quickly and easily just slide the saw off the shelf if I needed to haul it to a jobsite or somewhere else in my shop.
Another thing to keep in mind: with a "mobile" chopsaw, it didn't really matter if the fence on the saw aligned with the long fence on the support table to the left of the saw. The fence on the support table was only there for the radial arm saw, and to hold the sliding stop - which I could use for both saws. In practice, if I wanted to cut something on the chopsaw, I pulled the saw forward a bit, away from the support table fence, and simply held the stock I was cutting to the fence on the saw itself.
Zolton * Some people say I have a problem because I drink hydraulic brake fluid. But I can stop any time I want.
Bob,
Thanks for the advice. Your setup is similar what I was thinking, but you have the saws a lot closer, which makes a lot of sense. I'm also very interested in how your dust control works, since only my belt sander creates a bigger mess. I don't have as much space behind the saw as you do, and was thinking of running a duct inside the wall behind the saw, and then using one of those metal heating duct connectors to create a shallow hood. .
Also, what were you going to do with the little outlet on the blade guard? Like yours, mine is on the front of the guard, which makes hooking it up to a shop vac a bit cumbersome. Since it only captures about 5% of the dust I don't even bother with that. I just try to turn it so it doesn't blow in my face. Any thoughts?
Thanks.
I've got a several things going on here.
As to the CMS, Zolton suggested that I make a cutout to the left of the RAS so the CMS sits parallel with the tabletop and co planer with the RAS fence. So I'm looking into ways to do that. I was going to just horse it out and set it on the table as seen in the pic but that creates a new set of issues with regard to stock support. Zoltons idea seems to be the best so far.
I'm going to do some more work on it this weekend, Ma Nature permitting. It was -32°F this AM and we're supposed to get up to another 1' of snow tonight. Winter is getting really old here............
Anyway, as to the outlet on the RAS sawhead, I'm going to try connecting a Shopvac to see how that goes but am not optimistic. The outlet on the CMS seems to work a lot differently, i.e. it really spits out the sawdust whereas the RAS is a bit lazy in that regard. My gut instinct tells me that there isn't enough air movement and that might lead to a 4" y connector and fashioning a connection to it through the small port on each saw. Another advantage to this might be that this could better service both machines by swapping it between each one.
Still another possibility might be making a downdraft arrangement on the table. It's amazing when you think about it that the OEMs weren't concerned about efficient DC when they designed these critters. Suppose they thought everyone would be using them outside!?
I'll post my results on the blog so as to keep everything together.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 2/29/2008 2:18 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Hi guys, not meaning to but in to your conversation here. But I have a RAS and chop saw mounted on the same bench (chop saw is sunken to be level with bench top) & aligned to the same fence system. they are both hooked up to the DC. The RAS still throws a little dust, I need work on the back splash collection area some more one of these days.You can see my setup at: http://www.cottsinc.com/woodshopRegardsScott
Hi Bob.
Here we go again :)
Paul
ps That window will be a nice addition , flooding that cut station with natural light.
Hi Paul,
I know, every time I look at the space the window seems to get bigger in my mind!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I've owned 3 RAS's over the last 25 years. Two Craftsman models and the last one was a Delta 12" with the turret head. Never really liked any of them. I couldn't get any of them to give me the accuracy I was looking for. Too much play, movement, flex, etc. in the basic design IMO.
I now use a 12" slide compound miter saw. It runs circles around any of the RAS's I've had. There must be some good ones out there, though, because people have used them successfully.
So, set yours up and make some cuts. See if it works for you
Paul
Paul,
Do dee dum dum dum dum. Tada da da da.
Heh, heh, heh, heh.
My Radial Arm Saw and Me!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Hi Paul ,
Every time I hear you say your 12" Delta RAS never really cut accurate I wonder why ? I have the same model and have no problems with it at all as we have talked about in the past .
What I do is use a 10" 80 tooth negative rake like a laminate or Melamine blade on mine for most materials and while some veneers do chipout on the bottom side by using a sacrificial piece of 1/4" scrap under a high profile part that matters .
Just out of curiosity what size and type blade have you used on your's ?
To me the capacity is greater being able to crosscut about 15 1/2" as opposed to 12" on my Makita 1013 . I really love the scms for the right cuts mostly on the job . I have a pal with a shop and he cuts all his face frame and stile and rails on his old Hitachi scms , he has no RAS so I know it can be done . We were down in Eureka last weekend but had to get back to the valley , otherwise I would have tried to get a hold of you for a visit .
regards dusty
Hi Dusty,
I do sometimes miss the crosscut capacity of the Delta . I was very meticulous about set up taking the time to get it dialed in. I always used a 12" negative hook blade. These were the Delta Industrial blades that were made in Israel. I even tried a 10" Frued and other brands looking for a solution.
I won't talk about the Craftsman saws. They both had different issues (used saws). The thing that was happening was, as a cut was started the carriage, arm, motor mount or a combination would flex . This would result in a kerf that was slightly wider for the first 1/4" or so. The rest of the cut was fine. It was as if once the saw got a feel for cutting it would stabilize. So, for example. If I cut my faceframe parts every joint would have a slight space at one corner where it should be a perfectly tight joint. That got very annoying. I tried countless blade sizes and tooth configurations with no real improvement.
One other thing I should mention. I checked to see If it was possibly my pull technique. Nope. Straight, even pulling. In fact, it didn't matter how slow or fast I pulled. I still got the same cut. So, my solution was......
When I moved my shop (where I'm located now) I got a SCMS and built it into my cut-off station leaving the RAS in the corner. And the rest, they say, is history.
Paul
ps Ya, One of these days we'll get together.
Paul ,
Did you ever check the guide rods up in the track / wheel assembly ?
When I was getting a funny cut I was able to reverse or rotate the rods to reveal new smoother surfaces .
dusty
Good morning Dusty,
I did check the guide rods. In fact , that was one of the first things I did trying to find the problem. Reversed and polished them. I even tightened the carriage rollers until it would hardly move. Nothing helped. I also checked the the pivot points at the motor housing and carriage top for play. Everything seemed tight.
Maybe this unit was a dud. I don't know. But when you're making a living at woodworking you can't spend a lot of time messing around with stuff as you know.
Keeping busy?
Paul
I have a HF 10" slide miter saw and except for the fence needing some tweeking and alignment it has been very accurate. Just a couple months ago I bought a new Craftsman 10" RAS. I bought it for dado's and cross cutting wider than 11" boards that the slide can't do. I read about the RAS not being that accurate and so far not that true with the new one I have. I took the time to make sure it was aligned. And when I use it, I make sure I pull straight. For me the Craftsman with the lower price, its worth to have it. Not sure I would pay twice that for a Delta though. Craftsman has its limits, but for what you get for the price. I think its a decent deal. BTW I waited unilt it was $519, tool club price plus 20% off for ording online. Chose store pickup so no shipping either. The month before could have ordered it for $479. But didn't have the spare cash then.
Hi ben,
I took the time to make sure it was aligned.
Amen to that! THE most critical step to success with a RAS.
Another thing I found, and this may have been due to wear/lots of use is that one must pay attention to the arm, especially the rails where the guide rollers connect to the arm. A while back I was getting what I'd call jagged cuts. What I found was that the rollers weren't tight enough to fully engage the rails and the rails had some small bumps on them, sawdust accumulation. A quick cleanup of the rails, some white grease and tightening of the rollers and life is good again.
Just a tidbit for ya.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I have both and use them both.
To be honest the (what's the abbreviation everyone is using?) compound mitre saw is my go to saw for most things.
That said When I need it the RAS is waiting right down the bench.
Have to say I keep my wits about me when I use the RAS. Don't turn your back on it ever!
It's useful when I'm doing something unusual which is exactly when you need to watch out.
I have an old Emerson made Craftsman (1977 model if memory serves) and I get very good service out of it. I rip on it, cross cut, and get perfect miters. I love it.
Edited 2/21/2008 7:36 pm ET by harrycu
The RAS is often, and unjustly, maligned. Mine was the first stationary power tool in my shop -- well, that's if you don't count my first "table saw", which was a circular saw bolted to the underside of a plywood table. ;-) I did a lot of decent work with it until I sprung for a contractor's table saw. Both are now in my shop. I also have a compound miter saw and several circular saws, including a rail-guided CS.
Typically, I use the TS for ripping & the RAS for crosscutting. I use the rail-guided CS for ripping the edges of rough lumber straight for further milling. IMHO, these are the uses at which each tool excels. I'll use either the TS or RAS for dados/grooves, depending on the need & orientation of the cut.
However, when working on certain projects, e.g., making tenons, it's very handy to leave the TS and RAS set up to do cuts where the setup is a bit harder, requires stops, etc. and use the CMS to cut and trim pieces to final length. Or to crosscut an angle when the RAS is set for a cut that I'll need to repeat. In fact, there are times when I have four saws (adding a CS on a guide rail to the other three) set up and cutting "assembly line" style. Reduces down time and simplifies processes when you can leave saws set up for cuts that you'll need for the next piece.
So my vote is keep both of 'em. You'll find you use them both more than you might think.
I wouldn't worry about building the CMS into the bench. They're portable enough that you can set it on the bench and support the ends of the piece, if needed, for use.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
First off, i've never used a RAS.
I'm suprised no one has posted about safety of RAS vs Miter Saw. Obviously, this is a user issue, but i've heard many stories and had a few handshakes w/ folks who are missing digits from RAS. I haven't heard of the same incidents on Miter Saw. Again, a user issue, but the RAS operations are more prone to creep up on your hand/fingers?
"but the RAS operations are more prone to creep up on your hand/fingers?"
Only if you're crazy enough to put your fingers in the cut zone. IMHO, used properly, a RAS is safer than a TS for crosscutting.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Hi Mike,
As you may know I fully support the use of a RAS and have for many years. I, like you, bought my RAS as the first stationary tool in my woodshop. Also, as you said, it offers a lot of flexibility when used in concert with other saws.
I think its accuracy, or lack thereof as some would opine, in my experience has usually related back to the initial setup. I've also found that if you change angles, i.e. swing the arm, it can effect its squareness to the fence, at least on mine anyway. The shooting board usually takes care of that though.
Initially I thought it offered many more advantages than a TS; it could crosscut and rip. I distinctly remember the first time I attempted a rip cut with the RAS. Had it all set up and fired her up. It scared the bejesus out of me and I have never once since mustered the courage to try it again. Never will either! Bought a TS for ripping.
I do use it for certain dado operations like making dados for bookshelves. With stop blocks it makes it easy to make the cuts. I like the idea of being able to see the blade as opposed to it being under the workpiece and I can easily lower the blade for multiple passes, sneeking up on the required depth.
Hope we don't get into another RAS rant here.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
"Only if you're crazy enough to put your fingers in the cut zone. IMHO, used properly, a RAS is safer than a TS for crosscutting."
So true Mike!!
Poplarguy, your DeWalt MBC is a great RAS. I own one too (along with an MBF and a GWI). Make sure you get the Mr. Sawdust book if you don't already have one. Once adjusted properly with a flat table and the right blade, my SCMS can't touch my DeWalts for accuracy. The only time I use it anymore, is if I need something portable, or if I have a lot of 4x material to cut.
The keys to success with a RAS are:
using the right blade (not a TS blade from the BORG)
having a flat reference table
adjusting the carriage so it can't move on it's own (4 to 5 lbs. force to pull it)
adjusting both the vertical and horizontal heel of the blade (so it's not twisted in the cut)
The craftsmans, deltas, etc. don't have the three point adjustment in the back of the yoke for vertical and horizontal heel. Also, they don't hold their adjustments like a DeWalt does. My miter, crosscut, and bevel settings are very repeatable.
After acquiring a few DeWalts, found I didn't use the TS enough to justify the space for it. If you have a good RAS, the TS becomes a one trick pony for ripping, and I know techniques riping on the RAS that make it as safe as any saw that uses a circular blade.
"I know techniques riping on the RAS that make it as safe as any saw that uses a circular blade."
So do I and I use mine all the time for ripping. My Emerson has a sliding hold down on the back side of the blade and anti-kickback pawls on the front. It will not kick back...it may hang up and bog down, but then it trips the breaker and all is well.
Harry
Following the path of least resistance makes rivers and men crooked.
Thanks. I love the saw. I replaced the blade with a Freud blade, doubling my investment in the saw. I do have the Mr. Sawdust book, but haven't made the table yet. Does it make a difference vs. a solid piece of MDF with 1/4 inch of masonite or plywood on the top? I'm still using the beat up MDF table it came with, and despite the age and being bumped around, the cuts are still very accurate for crosscuts and dados. Replacing the table is on my list, but the metal reinforced plywood seems like overkill. Also, have you done any of the molding setups in the Mr. Sawdust book? They look terrifying, so for now I'll stick to a router table.
Thanks for the idea of keeping some resistance on the carriage. The saw isn't that powerful, and when it gets ahead of me it can bind.
I've made 4 steel reinforced tables from MDF instead of plywood, just need to make sure you seal it to keep moisture out. The reason to make a new table, is to have one that is flat, and will stay that way. A flat table is essential for aligning the saw to have a consistent depth of cut, horizontal heel, and a perfectly vertical crosscut.
I have the Delta 4" moulding head, and a fair number of cutters for it. Works great for moulding work. Much different than a router........more like a shaper. Once you have that 1"thick by 4" diameter hunk of steel spinning, it is impossible to stall like a router.......too much inertia. Nice and quiet with the DeWalt induction motor, with the exception of the noise from the air it moves. Definately something to take your time with, make sure your setup is sound, and treat with respect.
Tim
edit: Forgot to ask which Freud blade you bought. The LU83R008 works best for the MBC and the rest of the "powershop" saws. I even use 8" blades on the GWI unless I really need the extra depth of cut, then I change to the 10". Have you found the DeWalt RAS forum yet?? http://forums.delphiforums.com/woodbutcher/start Lots of good information there, and helpful folks to answer your questions.
Edited 3/1/2008 8:21 am ET by tsgraz
Tim,
Thanks for the advice. I've been waiting to get my new table saw up and running before trying to make a table for the radial arm saw.
I've seen the forum, but haven't registered yet, more because of time than anything else. When I was rewiring the saw I also ended up calling the folks at Wolfe Machinery who were very helpful. Once I get everything set up and start trying to do fancier things that shop cabinets I'll probably join.
Everyone talks about problems keeping the saw in alignment, and that was certainly a problem with my dad's 1970's Craftsman. I haven't noticed any problem bringing the DeWalt back into alignment after pivoting the arm. The stops are impressively low tech big iron levers that leave absolutely no play, and the saw itself is rock solid. Still, I was planning on getting the saw perfect at 90 degrees and then builing a sled for 45 degree mitres.
The blade is an 8 1/2 inch, 48T thin kerf sliding mitre saw blade, with a -5 degree hook. I'm not an expert in these things, but the cuts are beautiful.
Simon
Once aligned properly, a DeWalt will hold it's adjustments almost indefinately. In the summer, I regularly move mine out of the garage into the driveway (they're all on casters) and back with no issues whatsoever. Don't bother with the 45 degree fence. Once you get the crosscut to a perfect 90, the RH 45 stop will be dead on. The LH miter stop is useless........use the broken fence board from Wally's book for those.
I don't have any personal experience with crapmans, monkey wards, and other RAS's.......but all the people who complain about the RAS being innaccurate and dangerous own them. I've never seen a DeWalt owner complain about those issues.
Bear in mind, your DeWalt MBC sold for about $250 in 1955.........back when that was a lot of money. Adjusted for inflation, that would be around $1900 today!! How many people would be willing to pay that much for a machine like that today?? Not many. And that's why they've purchased cheaper machines, and gotten exactly what they've paid for. Hence the poor reputation of the RAS. After B&D purchased the DeWalt from AMF, they continually cheapened the design to compete on price, and the end result was dropping the product altogether.
Sounds like your blade will do fine for crosscuts, but you can't rip with a negative hook blade. The two blades I use, are the 8" Freud LU83 with a +10 degree hook (best bang for the buck), and a forrest 8" WW1 60 tooth TCP with a +5 degree hook.
Tim
Thanks. I hadn't done any precision checks on the mitre stops, but I suspect you are right. The arm on this saw doesn't budge with the stops set, even before tightening the lever.
At this point, I was going to rely on the table saw for rips and long edge rabbets, and use the RAS mainly for crosscuts/mitres, in addition to dados, which is why I got the negative hook.
Simon
bww ,
I'm with Mike on this one , should we stop driving cars too ?
RAS is not for everyone , I use it on most every job , it took many years to become comfortable and proficient while being safe . I must say bigger and heavier is better imo .
I think much of the problems with RAS come from the wrong blade for the job and too big a bite for the lower powered models .
There are so many ways to do the same thing we are lucky
A good sled for the table saw bench will cut anything
regards dusty
Rip cuts are definitely a risky operation on a radial arm saw, crosscuts are much less risky about the same as a sliding miter saw. On a powerful RAS a bind when crosscutting can create some excitement but if you keep your hands clear there isn't a lot of risk. I suspect that a lot of the injuries you saw occurred in mills and lumber yards where the saws often weren't well maintained or guarded, and not a lot of attention was paid to safe practices.John W.
I far prefer my old craftsman RAS over my sliding mitre saw. I have never had any problem with doing accurate work with the Craftsman although it is critical to keep it properly adjusted. Doesn't take much to throw it off. I have never been concerned about the safety issue. Any machine with moving parts, much less a blade, is a potential danger. At lest with the radial arm saw you have a pretty good idea where the blade is and I find the moving blade tends to sharpen my concentration. The mitre saw does have the advantage of portability but that is about it. I can turn out decent work on it but I find it far more fussy, especially on moundings.
I can turn out decent work on it but I find it far more fussy, especially on moundings.
Same here. I keep hearing about the innaccuracies of RAS'. I too have a 70s Craftsman and I really like it. I have managed to corner about 90% of the spewed sawdust and am on the the other 10. Had ZERO luck containing the CMS so far. It just wasn't designed with dust collection in mind.
Also, I rarely move it from the 90° position; I'd rather jig the workpiece to the angle I want. With holdowns the stock doesn't move whe I cut it either.
I can do dados to nearly any depth that I want and they are as accurate as I can do on the TS. Being able to see what the blade is doing is way important to me. Tend to take light cuts and sneak up on th eline; I'm in no big hurry.
Wanna have some fun!? Mount the old Craftsman wobble blade on it! Better yet, mount the 3 armed molding cutter. Nah, that works better on the TS.
I never rip with it, that's what the TS is for. Guess I'm an old fart.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 3/2/2008 7:22 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
"Wanna have some fun!? Mount the old Craftsman wobble blade on it!"
Do it all the time! Much quicker to set up than fussing with shims and stacked dado blades. The cut's not quite as clean, but often clean enough.
Here's a pic of me cutting some combing to hold spindles in some railing, using the afforesaid '70's Crafstman saw and a like-vintage wobble blade. (The flash was so fast, you can almost read the lettering on the blade!)
Note the hi-tech, home-made dust diverter on the guard that directs the dust rearwards to the collector mounted behind the saw. It ain't pretty, but it works.
View Image
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Mike,
Note the hi-tech, home-made dust diverter on the guard that directs the dust rearwards to the collector mounted behind the saw. It ain't pretty, but it works.
Thanks man, you may have just solved a problem for me. I also have a collection point to the rear of my RAS connected to the DC but wasn't able to capture the dust from the blade guard port.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
No problem. Patent Pending, of course, but for fellow Forum posters, no charge.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Yeah, I, too, use the wobble blade on my 70's vintage craftsman RAS, although it is a little frightening to see all those spinning teeth without a blade guard over them.
Harry
Following the path of least resistance makes rivers and men crooked.
Edited 3/3/2008 9:13 pm by harrycu
Edited 3/3/2008 9:14 pm by harrycu
Harry,
It's been a year or three since I last used the wobble blade on my 70s vintage RAS (I have one 'o them buggers too). Maybe give it a go again soon.
What sacres the bejesus outa me is Craftsmans molding head set. It comes with 3 cutters each of different profiles and the blades are held on with setscrews. Ummm. talk about potential problems here.
It does have a plastic blade guard though!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob ,
Those old style molding heads work well on the TS , I have made bead board panels and backs using the bead cutter knife and it really does a decent job . The cut it makes is very shallow and for the most part safer than the RAS imo.
dusty
dusty,
Thanks, I should have mentioned using it on the TS instead of the RAS. As you said it's much safer but I still get nervous knowing that the cutters are held on with them setscrews.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Nice idea for the dust diverter. Sure beats trying to rig up vacuum hoses.
I'm suprised no one has posted about safety of RAS vs Miter Saw. Obviously, this is a user issue, but i've heard many stories and had a few handshakes w/ folks who are missing digits from RAS. I haven't heard of the same incidents on Miter Saw. Again, a user issue, but the RAS operations are more prone to creep up on your hand/fingers?
No doubt the RAS can remove parts in a hurry. Having said that... the table saw is still the winner for most accidents in woodworking. This is probably the result of more tablesaws out there and tablesaws being used more often but... a little common sense and cutting pieces large enough to keep the fingers back from the blade will provide lots of safety sense.
RAS: Its a great tool if you have lots of wood to cut to length. Over the last 20 years, the RAS has gone down in popularity. The new CMS are so nice many have chosen the CMS/RAS. Its a fair call if you have to make a choice and funds are limited. If you already have the RAS and you get a CMS, don't run off and sell the RAS in a hurry. You won't get much for it and you will most likely wish you held on to it. Slow down. Its a good practice on the RAS and the sales decisions.
dan
A radial arm saw is basicly a builders saw. If you are building a house or garage, you can't beat them for speed and the accuracy is adequate. However, if you are doing fine cabinet work, they are notoriously inaccurate to the degree that you need. You can do accurate work with them if you keep tinkering and realigning each time you change the setup but the degree scale diameters are too small for quick resetting of angles. I wish someone woul develop a RAS with a large protractor like that on miter saws. I owned a RAS when I used to do contracting and it really was useful but having retired and now only doing work in the shop requiring a high degree of accuracy, I have sold it and bought a sliding compound miter saw. I am happy with the change.
Ripping narrow stock on a radial arm saw can be very dangerous. As a young man, I recall the local lumber yard had a hole in a corrugated metal door where a 2x4 was thrown through it during a ripping operation with a large RAS. Another time in a school shop, I recall a 12" Delta saw throwing a 4 or 5 foot 1x6 up to the ceiling and breaking a flourescent light. Both cases must have been due to poor setup but they did happen. On the other hand, I have found that the RAS is very good for ripping up large sheets of plywood if you have someone to catch for you.
Edited 3/1/2008 5:22 pm ET by wdrite
That's interesting, I switched to a non-slider because of the slop.
Mine is a Delta Sidekick and has a different clamp than most. You have to be careful that the detents are ingaged if used or in between detents make sure the marks are lined up when you release the clamp. I have used others that creep when tightened moving off the mark when turning the clamp handle. This can be agravating.
My problem was the flex in the rail system. Granted I was doing a lot of mitered corners.
Not a big Dewalt fan, but their twelve inch saws have a very positive cam
lock.
So that's where I've ended up a twelve inch dual bevel Dewalt.
It only cross cuts to 7" or so but the angles are true.
This has been my experience with radial arm saws as well. I never was able (or willing) to keep one in perfect tune long enough to do any good at all. That's why the combination of a chopsaw and radial arm on the same table worked well for me for a lot of years. I'd rough cut on the radial arm and do finer work with the chopsaw.
But when sliding miter saws hit the market, that turned out to be the ticket for me. My Makita cuts 12 inches - as wide as the radial used to - and is as accurate as my chopsaw was. So, I sold both of the older saws and went with the slider. The only thing I miss from the radial arm is the ability to accurately cut across a board only going a certain amount deep.
Zolton* Some people say I have a problem because I drink hydraulic brake fluid. But I can stop any time I want.
I also regret that the miter saw is not for cutting dados. It is possible on mine but not very practical. I get by on this with my TS and router. I really don't like dado heads as I have seen others have kickbacks several times. I only use mine when I have to. A homemade T-square and router works pretty good and is much safer.
I don't drink brake fluid but have really enjoyed my homemade blackberry this year.
Edited 3/1/2008 7:02 pm ET by wdrite
Amen Brother. The Makita was my other choice. The only reason I bought the Delta was the folding stand. I have tried the Makita and it has a really good feel.
wd,
A couple a things : first off imo a RAS should be used for crosscutting not angles or ripping or any fancy stuff .
Secondly , my guess is that you as most have never owned an industrial high quality RAS maybe say 12" or larger unit so , to say RASs can not be used for fine cabinet work because they are notoriously inaccurate is a statement without collateral . Show me .
I guess my wood is uninformed , lucky for my clients .
regards dusty
Uh oh dusty,
Here we go again!?
I'm sure you know I'm with you when it comes to the RAS, not that we need to choose sides. Definitely pro RAS here, they're just so damn useful and you can do a lot with them too. I will be the first to admit that it taks a bit getting used to that blade spinning out there in the open so to speak. Not hiding under a table.
Guess I'd better start looking into a 12" B4 they all get killed off. Which begs a question from me; what 12" RAS would you recommend? Seems like the Dewalt is the weapon of choice.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 3/2/2008 7:46 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Hiya Bob ,
Now I would not for a second want anyone to think I consider the RAS any safer then any other shop machine or otherwise the type of tool that does not require much time to learn and feel comfortable using by any means .
I have the utmost respect for this and all tools and machines , none are to be taken lightly imo .
For all the folks terrified by the RAS , there was this little jewel of a saw called a swing saw , it pivoted like a pendulum . This machine was the most frightening one I ever used (once or twice) it belonged to a pal who was making pole furniture . They were common place in old lumber yards and larger versions probably still are in use in the big lumber and plywood mills .
I have an old Rockwell Delta 12" , besides Colebear I have not heard of this saw not performing correctly. The best I ever used was a 14 or 16" version of the same Rockwell I use .
Original brand is good the older Dewalts may be good there are a few others worthy of a look as well .
dusty
I have a 1953 DeWalt 12". Running a Chopmaster. Holds 1/32 - 1/64th all the way to max. I have my fence set for a 14" cut but all the way back,approx 18+. Cuts a perfect right 45 but I don't use it that way. Never use it in rip. Never use opposite power takeoff in vertical for anything. Solid as a rock, no variations, no wobbles. A real dust thrower. Lot of power. xcut a 9'x 16/4 rock maple with no problems. Dangerous sucker though. Don't look away. Only available brake is electric and a big operation and cost. Not worth it. Blade spindown is so long, I could get in the front 9 before it stops.:-)John
You are right that I have never owned a large RAS but I ran school shops for many years where we had larger saws. If RAS's are not to be used for angles, what are all those gadgets on them for? If you just want a cutoff saw, they are available. I did not intend to mean that RAS's could not be used for fine cabinet work. They can. However, they are more difficult to keep in adjustment than quality miter saws. To each his own.
"However, they are more difficult to keep in adjustment than quality miter saws."
FWIW, I have to adjust my TS more than my RAS -- course, neither are hi-end tools.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
The capacity in width being more then the standard 12" that most scms have coupled with larger more bigger and more better motors makes the ras capable of crosscutting larger boards that would be awkward on the ts , move the work or move the saw ?
just my opinion that angles are not what ras do best .
dusty
I just thought of a tape that you might be interested in on the RAS. It probably can be located through FWW. It is by a man by the name of Erphelding . I have forgotten his first name and my spelling might be a little off on the last but the guy takes an old 10 inch Craftsman RAS and does some fantasticly accurate work with it. He is of the 'perfectionist' type and I suspect that he is very particular when making adjustments. It also helps if only one person has access to a machine. The tape is very worthwhile for anyone who likes RASs.
My guess is that you're thinking of Curtis Erpelding.
-Steve
Right. Thanks. It's been several years since I've seen it.
Yes, the name is Curtis Erpelding. I have that tape ordered. I will post my review here once it arrives and I have time to look at it.
Harry
Following the path of least resistance makes rivers and men crooked.
IMHO ras are good for one thing.... stuff like repetitive cutting, like hundreds of blocks for concrete forms. The rest is mostly downside especially safety and accuracy.
Like many others, the RAS was my first stationary power tool. I spent a lot of time and energy setting it up and adjusting it as well as making some accessory jigs and tables for various operations. I installed a three piece MICARTA table 3/4" thick (I was able to acquire the material at no cost) which in over 20 years has yet to develop a permanent blemish.
Mine is no longer the "go to" tool it once was but I certainly would never consider getting rid of it! I'll build a bigger shop first (and that's not real likely LOL)!
There is a wood worker/author out there somewhere named Curtis Erpelding (pardon me if I butchered the spelling) that has made a science out of accuracy with a RAS. I recall reading some of his work at some point and he explains in elegant detail how to do VERY ACCURATE work including joinery with the RAS. Try a Google search and you might find a book or at least an article by him. It may be very enlightening.
If you have a decent RAS definately keep it and the miter saw. The miter saw will be the easier upgrade later on.
regards,
Mack
"WISH IN ONE HAND, S--T IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
Mack,
Just a follow up to your post.
http://www.mikestools.com/060009-Radial-Arm-Saw-Joinery-Erpelding-VHS.aspx
Also a RAS advocate,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Qote:
http://www.mikestools.com/060009-Radial-Arm-Saw-Joinery-Erpelding-VHS.aspx
I ordered that VHS from Taunton Press last night. I'll let you know how it turns out.
Harry
Following the path of least resistance makes rivers and men crooked.
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