Replies

1. 
   Danford_C._Jennings | Jan 09, 2002 10:32pm | #1

   *
   Greg,

   I would really like to help you but, feel uncomfortable in trying to with the information provided. I make furniture in the Mission style, FWIW.

   Could you please be more specific on the design and dimensions of the stock being used? Even a rough sketch attached as a jpeg (200Kb max) would help me or others to better visualize the piece for more accurate replies.

   At this point, I can only say that I use a lot of carcase dove tails, mortise and tenon joinery in my carcase construction.

   Dano

1. 
   Greg_Banks | Jan 09, 2002 11:50pm | #2

   *Dano; Wow, thanks for the interest and quick reply. I've attached a quick sketch, and used rough numbers. Essentially, my carcass stock would be 1 1/2 x 3" (rails and styles) and the panels either solid wood or perhaps veneered ply. the top and drawer dividers would be 1"t x w x l. The drawer sides and bottom will be cedar and the rest of the cabinet will be maple. Would have loved 1/4 oak, but the bed was completed in Maple 1 year ago, and this was an afterthought. None of my stock sizes are cast in stone, and would welcome an experienced perspective. I thought these would be suitable, but still learning.Greg

1. 
   Danford_C._Jennings | Jan 10, 2002 01:34am | #3

   *Greg, just dropped in on my coffee break. Saw the jpg, kinda what I had in my minds eye, good design. I'll get back with you here after I roll up, I'm on PST, and maybe we can tweak it a tad.Dano

1. 
   Danford_C._Jennings | Jan 10, 2002 06:07am | #4

   *Greg,Been fiddling around with your design a tad. My first question is; are your design elements taken from the bed or are you just trying to match wood type? The reason I ask is that there are a couple of "changes" I feel are necessary.My major concern involves the door and joinery it will require, no biggie mind you but, a change none the less that will also have some effect on the sides.A secondary and perhaps less of a concern is the plinth, or in the case of your drawing; the lack of one.In re reading your messages I notice that Mission is in quotations. Does this imply that you are using the term loosely or are you attempting to build this as a Mission style piece? Again, no biggie but it would help in saving some time.With the understanding that the following is not a solicitation, feel free to use my private e-mail if you would feel more comfortable in doing so. Dano

1. 
   Greg_Banks | Jan 10, 2002 06:48am | #5

   *Dano, The bed is essentially a sleigh bed with vertical slats curved to meet an upper rail (head and foot) which is 2" thick where it meets the slats and curves and tapers to a 1" round over. The legs are effectively 2x2 and curve to meet the head and foot rail, while the sides are 2 x 6. All that to say what I would call a mission style sleigh bed, and although the wood type must stay the same, I can't think of any particular design element which would be shared. I'm guessing that answers your 3rd question, but to be more clear....I like the look of the mission style which uses lighter frames, not quite the heavy timber associated (from what I gather) with the original Arts and Craft style. My thoughts on the door were to build a basic square MT frame door with a flat panel, much like the sides. Behind the door were to be 2 shelves. I was thinking that the side style (leg) would provide the hinge point and the horizontal drawer divider which separates the large drawer from the door and smaller drawers and the vertical drawere divider between the small drawers and door would provide a frame for the inset door. You are correct in noticing a lack of plinth. I was thinking the extended sytle on the side would act as a leg and a small curved piece at the front would be added to ensure the piece does not look like it is on stilts.Once again thank you for your thoughts, and extending the offer to use your private e-mail.Greg

2. 
   Sgian_Dubh | Jan 10, 2002 07:05am | #6

   *If I assume traditional drawers running on traditional runners and kickers, then you're going in the right direction. To make the runner and kicker frames, the web, as you identify it, a typical method, but not the only method, is to install the front and back horizontal rail with a double stub tenon into the vertical member, and on the left in the upper section, that will be into the front and back leg. Then cut your front to back members- i.e., the runners/kickers with a small tenon offset towards the middle of the frame into your front and back rail. In your case because you are using a frame and panel construction for the carcase sides you won't have to be concerned with expansion and contraction here so you can glue the tenoned front to back runner/kicker member in at both front and back. i In work with a solid timber panelled carcase side you would need to allow for expansion and contraction of the side, so you would cut the runner/kicker a bit short, cut the tenons, and glue in the front tenon. The rear tenon that goes into the rear member would float with the tenon shoulder a bit short of hitting the rear part, i.e., it would be unglued. There is no need to make the side panels flush with inside face of your front and back leg. The front to back runner/kicker can be notched around the legs internally and you glue on a vertically standing drawer guide to the upper part of the runner. I should mention that the underside of a runner that also has a role in preventing the drawer below from 'kicking' is a kicker, so the terms runner and kicker can apply to a single member, but the bottom runner is just a runner, and the top kicker is just a kicker, if that makes sense.Your vertical divider between the door at the right, and the drawers on the left would probably best be made out of man made board so that again you don't have to concern yourself with its expansion and contraction, but you would attach a lipping of solid timber to the front edge. Here your runner/kicker can be made exactly the same as on the left, but if you like you could run a full width housing stopped short of the front of the divider, and cut and notch your runner/kicker wide enough to sit in the housing.Below this you have two or three full cabinet width drawers, and what I said about runners/ kickers in the first paragraph applies here too on the right side. On wide drawer runner frames such as these you might seriously consider putting an additional centrally located front to back muntin. In a lot of good quality work the inside edges of your drawer frames, or 'webs', are grooved to accept a dust board, nowadays usually of plywood or veneered MDF.You will find a lot of similar information to my above screed in that never bettered, old, and definitive text, The Technique of Furniture Making by Ernest Joyce. In the US I think it's sold as the Encyclopedia of Furniture Making, and it can certainly be purchased at two or three of the big online booksellers. Arts and Crafts style furniture is not really my cup of tea as a maker, but good construction is, and I've outlined just one method that could go some way to resolving your construction dilemma. I'll leave you and Dano to 'tweak' the aesthetics of your design, if that's what you guys plan to do. ;-) Slainte, RJ.

3. 
   Danford_C._Jennings | Jan 10, 2002 08:08am | #7

   *Greg,In regard to the door, I was not referring to it's construction but, rather the joinery surrounding it. As usual, Sgian provided excellent information on the fundamentals of carcase construction.I would have front and back top rails tenoned or carcase doved into the side stiles which would be at least 2" square stock. I would also have a bearer rail on both sides and a center bearer rail for the top. The carcase would be on a plinth.Not to nit pick or quibble over semantics but, Arts & Crafts was a movement of which the Mission style, Craftsman style, and even Frank L. Wright's Prairie style came from. Mission style is not considered "light" though the Prairie style could be considered thus. Much of the Mission style's hardware was wrought iron or hammered copper, strap hinges, heavy drawer pulls, etc.Prairie style, generally speaking, emphasizes the horizontal plane, with few vertical accents. So, perhaps this is the style which we are really discussing.Regardless, carcase construction is pretty basic in terms of joinery. The overall design and stock dimensions, IMO, should be approached with that in mind. FWIW.Dano

4. 
   Greg_Banks | Jan 10, 2002 11:24pm | #8

   *Sgian, thank you for detailing the runner / kicker description. Initially, I was looking at using the side of the cabinet as a drawer guide, eliminating the need to glue the vertical guide. I saw this demonstrated in a seminar, by a Canadian, Rob Cosman who referred to it as a "piston fit drawer" which he had learned from Alan Peters - amazing feel when it slid into place - and was looking at applying it to this piece. Much of what you explained for the construction of the web frame was covered in the seminar (same reference book was suggested - will be picking up this evening) part of the problem was my poor chicken scratch is non legible after so many months and the non glued runner was fuzzy. Dano,Thank you for the suggestions, I will incorporate the additional bearer rails. I'm not sure how to incorporate the plinth into this. Would you notch it around the legs to ensure it stays flush to the sides? Just curious? I'm not familiar with Prairie style but will keep an eye out for publications with Frank L Wright as it sounds interesting. The lighter versus heavy is my interpretation of what I've seen in Taunton's "In the Mission Style" and what appears in the retail stores in my area as Mission, usually beds, tables etc.Greg

5. 
   Danford_C._Jennings | Jan 10, 2002 11:53pm | #9

   *Greg,No. The plinth is a separate component some refer to as the base. The corners are reinforced with corner blocks and joined using a variety of joints from a splined mitre to a blind dovetail mitre. Actual fabrication depends if it is projecting, recessed, or flush. I've seen some examples where the "plinth" is simply mortised intothe legs.As to Taunton's "In The Mission Style" I can't comment as I've not seen it. My main source for Mission style came from various Gustav Stickley reprints from his i The Craftsman magazine and what I've seen in Museums. This is not to say that your interpertation is wrong, it just might be different than mine.I should make one other clarification though, the Prairie style refersi primarily to architectural elements. Mission/Craftsman style refersi primarily to furniture. Because of the influence of the Arts & Crafts movement, there was a fair amount of "over lapping" into other areas such as textiles and architecture.Dano

6. 
   Danford_C._Jennings | Jan 11, 2002 12:52am | #10

   *Greg,Interesting, only part of an edit loaded......i I've seen some examples where the "plinth" is simply mortised into the legs.I had expanded on this by saying that I would not consider these pieces to be a plinth. Simply an element to remove the look you alluded to previously. If this is your approach I would recommend you give the same treatment to the sides.Dano