I thought I’d post this for those that may be interested. I have nothing to do with the listing/auction.
No representation without taxation
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Replies
matt,
gee. thanks for posting that. yet one more thing i want. yet one more thing i can't even come close to affording. aren't those marcous gorgeous? i am but a beginner in the world of handplane work. learned how to fettle a few months ago. the difference between unfettled and well fettled is very significant. one wonders the difference between my best fettled and that there marcou.
eef
Shipping is free for the winning bidder, doesn't that make the plane slightly more affordable for you :-)?Wow that is one expensive plane..
You don't have to use the 'buy it know' feature. The starting bid is lower. (insert smiley face here.)No representation without taxation
Is it new, or is it 'previously enjoyed merchandise'? Like it matters...gorgeous tools. Lataxe, you watchin' it? Tom"Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand"
Looks to be used to me - but possibly only slightly. The brass seems to be a tad tarnished.
I guess I got a good deal - I picked mine up at a rummage sale for $12 :-)
Lee
Where the heck were you rummaging? ;) Tom"Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand"
Lee was rummaging around in my workshop- I tend to look after people I "know".Philip Marcou
Philp,
When can I rummage in your workshop? Ah but wait! - it will cost me $thousands to fly there (first clarss, naturally).
Tom thinks I will be tempted by that ebayer. He doesn't realize how full the Marcou drawers are; and that the little corner left is resved for a very fine J15A of weight approximately 1.37 metric tons, probably still on the drawing board......?
Perhaps I should mention jack planes to Mr Brese? :-)
Lataxe, who is coming to the end of pocket money from the ladywife soon, as she is going to give up work so she can play-out with me all day.
Lataxe, who is coming to the end of pocket money from the ladywife soon, as she is going to give up work so she can play-out with me all day.
OK Philip, that's your que. Time to make that last push for 8 or 10 new designs before Lataxe's money runs out ;-)
Lee
Ah, Lee,
I don't think so as The Good Lady knows full well how to keep The Mogul of Galgate happy....Philip Marcou
Actually, one way to answer bones's question is to simply relate it to cars. Why buy a Rolls Royce when a Ford basically does the same thing. The short answer is because you want to.People buy Philip's planes because they want to have a beautiful handcrafted Marcou plane. It's as simple as that. To them it's not really an issue of whether or not they're better than LN or LV planes, or the same as a Sauer + Steiner, Holtey or Wayne Anderson plane (or one of mine for that matter). They want one of Philip's and that's that.The fact that Philip uses a Veritas blade shouldn't be an issue. Many traditional planemakers -- infill or otherwise -- used blades made elsewhere. No shame in that at all.
Handplane Central
Sire,
On no account mention jack planes to MR. Brese- he doesn't make them yet (;).
I have 2 (two) J15A's not on the drawing board but on the Granite Surface plate for your inspection. Semi dormant at this stage due to certain distractions, but soon to come to life- so measure the available shelf space to be sure you have at least 16 inches and it must be well supported.Actually I might make a field decision and do one at 15 degrees and the other at 20 degrees- and that is NOT because I think there is not enough back clearance at 15 degrees.
There should also be a growling at your door soon-a little early but there was a need to ensure it is there on March 1st.Philip Marcou
Philip,
Urghhh, I feel plane-lust! It's like malaria of the woodworking mindset - every now and then it flares up and one is reduced to a quivering thing in desperate need of the only medicine that will work - another beautiful plane. Still, I could be giving dosh to a bad bloke in Las Vegas instead. You cannot plane with a gambling debt, especially since they break your arms.
Just in case that Lee tries to get in first, I hereby claim dibbs on the 15 degree item as I like the effects of a low-slung BU blade no matter what its bevel angle. As to Mr Festool, he will just have to get by somehow without my Domino money. The ladywife gives 6-months notice next week so soon I will be poor! She will be coming to me later in the year seeking a frock allowance from my paltry pension!! I will buy her a refurbished sewing machine.
There was indeed a growl at the front door today. In stalked A Beast and put itself up with the other beasts of its ilk. It came with another parcel containing a bottle of single malt from a Scottish friend. Happily cats prefer creme de menthe so the Scotch was intact.
View Image
View Image
Naturally there is a reciprocation in the pipeline. :-)
Lataxe, a birfday boy (on 1st of March).
Just in case that Lee tries to get in first, I hereby claim dibbs on the 15 degree item as I like the effects of a low-slung BU blade no matter what its bevel angle.
No arguments from me there - I'll be having that 20 degree beast with a side of ebony or brazilian rosewood (er.....texas ebony)
Now that Philip has both of these sold he should get moving on the next order
Lee
Sire,
Your claim is duly filed noted and filed- about to be milled in fact as I try to avoid files.
I am pining for the chromed beast already (;). One cannot but admire the lines of that mascot- "Grace , Pace and Elegance" all in one.Looks good with the other cat.
What of the hound? Was he a family member?Philip Marcou
Philip,
That jag is happy in his new home and has been roaring around the living room, quite gracefuly it's true.
The hound in the picture is in fact "Kate" a back lab painted by Steven Townsend, a local artist addicted to all manner of beasts, including dawgs and large cats. There is a mountain lion ("Curiosity") and a cheetah ("Morning dew") of his not far away from Kate and the jag.
http://www.steventownsend.com/
Meanwhile a reciprocation is in the aether. You will be having to be getting used to British woodworking prose. :-)
*****
I yam dreaming of jackplane. The ladywife is making "new washing machine" noises-off again (to go with the "I'm old and knackered" noises the washing machine has been making). It's a terrible thang when essential tools might have to wait a month whilst humdrum domestic appliances are dealt with!
Lataxe
Sire,
I trust you will be brought tea and a biscuit etc in bed tomorrow.
The yack plane is happening and here is a picture of something I don't like doing but have no alternative at the moment.But I am sure Adam would approve (;)Philip Marcou
Would a cutoff wheel in a die grinder be too inaccurate?
................................................
Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
Don, I haven't tried it but I'm not sure if it would be quicker.Philip Marcou
Hi Phillip,Is it cold chisel and file work after the hacksaw cuts?CHeers,eddie
Eddie,
It is a cold chisel exercise to remove the waste, but then I refine a bit more by using the bench grinder-no files.
The next step is to mill them to a tight fit.
The reason I don't just mill them out in one go is that I have only a small machine which hasn't got the weight of a proper mill which enables heavy cuts to be taken, even with cutters blunt. A proper mill gives other options too.Philip Marcou
THanks Philip,Cheers,eddie
Karl, I mean Adam, I mean Philip :-)
"I trust you will be brought tea and a biscuit etc in bed tomorrow".
I did get extra maple syrup on the porridge this morning, along with two cups of delicious Yemini Matari coffee fresh from the grinder. But then I gets that every morning, should I look all hungry-like. The ladywife is terrible for feeding one up; just ask the cat, who is currently on caviar. But I may well be brought a little something in bed tomorrow morning - the ladywife dressed in [censored].
Every now and then we lads who make things in sheds, be it furniture or planes, have to return to primitive practices. At the very least this underlines why we prefer a more modern tool or process. Also, one can then fence with the galoots from one's experience rather than from a merely theoretical basis. And sometimes the primitive is quite enjoyable - a bit like having a sauna and then running through the snowy forest nekkid to plunge in a pool. It is perversely enjoyable, even though you only want to do it once a decade.
But I digress.
Even though I tend to admire far estern ingenuity and R&D (once it reaches a certain level, as with cameras) I am hoping the Mel-model of Marcou plane manufacture does not come about. I cannot see you as an accountant, manager of a folk-horde or a glib salesman.
I also suspect that the making of money is merely a hygenic factor for you and comes well down the list of life's essential pleasures and necessities, after "self-fulfilment", "personal competance" and so forth. Whilst I tend to agree with Mel on the macro economic scale, I feel he is lost in that capitalist model that knows the price of everything and the value of, well, not much outside of the balance sheet.
Anyroadup, saving for that plane-tank has begun!
Lataxe, a birfday boy, I mean gimmer (official).
Lud,
"Even though I tend to admire far estern ingenuity and R&D (once it reaches a certain level, as with cameras) I am hoping the Mel-model of Marcou plane manufacture does not come about. I cannot see you as an accountant, manager of a folk-horde or a glib salesman."
I too have admirations and don't believe we can teach them anything about a lot of things including plane making.
There is no chance of me engaging the gentlemen to churn out millions of planes in a bid to lower the price and "turn around woodworking" because as you have correctly said , it isn't my cup of tea and the price still won't be low enough-whatever it is, due to human nature.Not to mention financial aspects of setting up a full on industrial operation.Not to mention competition with other mass producers of good planes. Not to mention the fact that according to Mel woodworking is on the down turn which would imply a weak demand for cheap planes.
Look what happened with the Swiss (real) watch industry when the Quartz "watch" appeared- they recovered and are stronger than ever and mechanical (real) watches are even more popular than before, and the price range from cheap to mega costly is even wider. And one man quality watch making operations are in great demand-read top quality watches made for collectors/investment. I'm not saying this would happen with tools /planes but it is interesting to see.
And even more interesting will be what happens in the aftermath of this world economic cods up- with all kinds of manufacturing.
Edited 2/28/2009 4:04 pm by philip
Philip,
One of your 'older' pictures shows a mill cutting the pins...what gives?
Your hack saw blade looks 'dry'. A dab of cutting fluid...
Drill pivots/divots?
Best wishes,
Metod
Metod,
I still do it that way after removing the waste by drilling chiselling and grinding-see my post to Eddie.
Cutting oil? I use it with a hacksaw on an intermittent basis (;).Actually I'm nor sure it is all that helpful if at all.Philip Marcou
Philip,
In a day or two I plan to order some mills. Any thoughts on the rough cutting ones? Are they worth trying - 1/2" size for example? The few times that I used my mill, I'd lower the bit in small (1/32"?) increments to reach the base line. Awfully slow - and the sides of the flutes do not get used, just the bottom (wasteful, because I have no means to regrind them). Not that it matters for my micro-volume of milling.
But then, about $14 might be worth just to find out that my mill-drill is not up to it, even at a 'cautious' feed rate.
I do find the cutting fluid beneficial - it could be only psychological (it it works for the mills, why not for the saws).
Thanks for your opinion.
Take care,
Metod
Metod,
I have yet to use one of those roughing cutters because firstly I can't get the full benefit as my "mill" is so light and secondly the cheapest 10mm four flute one costs NZ$11.87 compared to $43.27 for a roughing cutter.
Forget about "coated" cutters, or cobalt cutters or other special Unobtainium steels. I do sometimes vacillate between cobalt cutters and the normal HSS ones because the cost difference is small, but I am not sure if they last longer to be worthwhile.
For me an typical pass on end milling is 1/10mm or 4thou with a four flute so your 1/32 is a heavy cut-but you soon learn what your machine can cope with.
The sides of the flutes do get used, esp3ecially the critical first 1/2mm or so... you need to bone up on sharpening these things.You can touch up the ends with the aid of a suitably shaped wheel, suitable tool rest and a head loupe and light , but it takes some practice and steady hand. You can extend the useful life greatly like that, but there is no way other than an expensive tool and cutter grinder to sharpen the flutes-that I know of at least.And it is uneconomic to get them sharpened here as they make those milling cutters in NZ .
Now you start to know why I remove the waste on those sole dovetails by other means before doing the final accurate work with a my "mill", saving the new/sharp cutters for the critical stuff.
P.S. Re cutting oil: you will see that sometimes it is beneficial and other times it is not, and it is probably more useful to remove the chippings . Philip Marcou
Edited 3/1/2009 12:51 am by philip
Thankfully cats don't have enough taste for single malt! 'Course I'm a heathen and drink mine over ice...Tom"Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand"
Tom,
Drinking propah whusky with any old ice in it is like eating filet mignon in a MacDonalds bun with the "cheese" still in it, after it's been in their freezer for a week and still hasn't thawed. Well, perhaps not that bad; but I believe you must be brought to Blighty then the Highlands, for some drinking-education.
Scots whusky men insist that one should dilute the whusky with a small amount of water from the same burn that supplies the distillery. Personally I feel that any good spring water does better, as it lacks the concentrated gag of peat and also the liver-fluke eggs.
In fact I like 5 parts water to one part whusky, which many Scots find sinful. But this is when subtle flavours emerge. Also it reduces the chances of the gob-rot, caused by concentrated grog slurping.
Lataxe, who will be sipping Talisker and Ardbeg of the non-chill filtered variety this evening.
LataxeI and several whusky sippers are dreaming of a tour of the Highlands and learning the proper art of drinking single malt. I had a dear friend from Ayr, and he instructed me in the ways of how the natives drink the stuff, but he wasn't able to completely convert me. When I make the trip, I'll drink several toasts to John's memory. Tom, who's not always willing to learn new tricks, but will have a go at this one.
"Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand"
PhilipThat's good--now I'll just go rummage through Lee's shop--he's only a 4.5 hour drive away! Leave the lights on, Lee! Tom"Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand"
I have no idea if it's used.No representation without taxation
C,
It has been used and it was bought in October 2007, but judging by correspondence with the owner I would say it has been very well maintained. He is a reluctant seller.Philip Marcou
A plane with a veritas blade 2k? Must be good livin!
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it.
And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
I think Philip must really enjoy making this self styled product. I agree, loving your job is very "good livin" indeed.
Rob Lee seeing his product trusted by such a high end product must also be "good livin".
I wish for either of these in my future and that of everybody else.
I can't comment as to how much profit Philip makes off one of these. I don't think his take is =$2000-$40 for the blade. I don't think he's making 6 of these a week and selling them at the local flea market.
No representation without taxation
Edited 2/24/2009 1:17 pm ET by MattInPA
Not challenging his profit. I think he's entitled to what ever the market will bear. I was wondering what made that plane so special? It's blade is a veritas blade. Is it the design of the opening the angle of the cut etc. I'm trying to figure out what would make someone pay 2k for a plane? Just curious what makes the special part. Obviously some see the value because he sells them. Just wondering aloud what that something is?Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Check out Post 9 and after regarding high end planes
http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=45601.16
No representation without taxation
This has been, in my opinion, the best thread since the first 200 posts of that 5000 post thread.
http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=45601.16No representation without taxation
Bones,
If you are serious you can answer your own questions by making a plane like that . See how long you take to make just one, if you can actually finish one. Or if you give up , try having parts made by others-if you have the money to pay , then see what price you need to ask in order to recover that money-forget about profit in that case.
Another way to answer the questions is to compare one with any other planes, mass produced or otherwise and see the difference.Remember- they need to perform better than they look.
When you get clever, see if you can make more than four in one month- and then see if you can sell those four....(;)
P.S. It would be useful if you could also provide blades interchangeable with Veritas but in two other steel options.Philip Marcou
Wow strait from the source! First, I am not in any way challenging the quality of your planes they look amazing and are art for sure. My questions was much more simple Is there something that separates yours from the mass produced planes i.e. veritas & LN's. I thought maybe you had a design element or something that would impact functionality. Love entrepreneurship!
PS if you don't mind the question, how did you come to be making planes? Was it a hobby you turned pro with, or did you have a background as a machinist and this is a natural extension? Just curious.
Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Edited 2/24/2009 4:09 pm by bones
Bones,
You do ask a fair question. I'll attempt an answer although there may be a bit of "rationalisation after the fact" here and there in it. :-)
With any tool there's a a law of diminishing returns (L of DR). You can pay a significant amount more for an LN or LV over an Anant and get a greatly significant increase in functionality and performance. You can pay a greatly significant amount more for a Marcou than for an LN or LV and get an significant increase in functionality, performance and quality of materials/finish. (The L of DR graph is getting steeper). You can pay a huge amount more for a Holtey than for a Marcou and get a significant but probably quite small increase in "quality" (for want of a better term) over a Marcou. (The L of DR graph is near vertical).
So, how much is that significant increase in functionaity and prformance worth? It's a personal decision. I like the weight, rigidity, precision, engineering and aesthetic quality of a Marcou enough to cough up the difference between it and an LN. That increased functionaity is not an illusion - the planes are easily set, work as well as any plane could and deal with nasty grained woods rather better than a similarly set-up mass-produced plane.
For some, that increased functionality (and the associated beautiful engineering) would not be worth the extra money. This is the case for me when comparing Marcous to Holteys. But if a chap has the dosh and wants the better Holtey knob-knurling or gleam, that's OK as long as he knows how steep that Lof DR curve is that he's on.
Lataxe
Bones,
No problem, and relax about Jeff- he is always a straight upfront guy.
It is actually "difficult" for me to start pointing out differences positive or negative between mine and Veritas or Lie Nielsen especially as those two do a fine job.Maybe mine is the sum total of a number of small "design elements" which impart that extra functionality (;).
I came to be making planes because of a need to eat, here in New Zealand, which is not my country of birth. I am interested in woodworking tools and machines anyway and would like to be in a position which still allows me to make specific types of furniture and make good planes (and sell them ofcourse).I am not starving at this stage and a combination of woodworking and metal working allows me to practise what I preach, so to speak.So the plane making was not a hobby even at the start, although I have done, and lately continue to do, my share of Stanley type fettling/rebuilding/makeovering: I simply neaten them up and make sure they work properly and then sell them on the NZ equivalent of E bay.Like the ones pictured.I have bought no equipment to make planes other than an ancient surface grinder and some instruments and cutters.All else was found in my shop.Philip Marcou
Thanks for the reply and the pics. I was provided a to a review of one of your planes and it was extremely detailed and I think answered my question to the point. Very nice work. Best of luck. Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Bones,
Why would people buy or commission an expensive piece of furniture when they could get the same 'functionality' for a fraction of a cost at various and more convenient furniture stores.
You need to have a better sense (Knot-wise) than 'biting the hand that feeds you'. I mentioned in another post that Krenov had an 'unbalanced' view on the matter of planes. Little point in aping the same. Great messenger (he offered much to many), but this particular message/view stinks (to my nose - to be biased).
Metod
I actually don't have a problem with Krenov in regards to "toning down" the look of a plane. It doesn't have to look good to be good. It just needs to work well.However I AM a sucker for a "pretty" plane. Different strokes for different folks.
Handplane Central
You should carry a picture of one of the Marcou's in your wallet. :-)
Best wishes,
Metod
Come on Metod: what is bringing on this waspyness?
Apart from that I think you need to try one of mine first, then you can make comparisons with Krenov planes-and I refer to functionality.Philip Marcou
I think you need to try one of mine first, then you can make comparisons with Krenov planes-and I refer to functionality.
But Philip, if you can make a plane that looks like it was hacked out by a rabid beaver, then we can make an apples to apples comparison ;-)
Lee
Don't forget, it needs to have an orange painted iron of uncertain parentage!
................................................
Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
Lee,
I could make one that looked as though a rabid hyena had coughed it up...... but not a beaver, hell no.
Actually, I am having difficulty following what Metod is on about so I sent him a message via satellite.Philip Marcou
Lee,
Krenov style planes offer a distinct different (I am not saying 'better') ergonomics, that is preferred (over the pistol/vertical grip) by many users. Their basic shape can easily be realized as a metal infill version.
My own design (not a 'public' property for copying) represents yet another distinct ergonomics. I plan (and hope) to sell a few sometimes in the future. At present I am in no rush and do not have a comfortable amount of time to work in this direction. Besides, before anybody else gets them, I want to have some for my own use/pleasure. This was my original intention anyway.
I posted a picture of a Krenov style a few months ago, so I know that it can be done. My first try at a metal plane, just to go through the process of cutting and peening of dovetails (had only enough scrap for a small one).
Truth: I haven't made an iron and a lever cap for it yet, so no facts about its performance.
Best wishes,
Metod
>> You should carry a picture of one of the Marcou's in your wallet. :-)
Best wishes,
Metod
How do you know I don't already? ;-)
Handplane Central
Cameron,
Silly me, I should know better. :-)
Best wishes,
Metod
"Bones,Why would people buy or commission an expensive piece of furniture when they could get the same 'functionality' for a fraction of a cost at various and more convenient furniture stores.
Numerous reasons people could do this. They like the style , they want to brag how much they paid for something or thats just what they like.
You need to have a better sense (Knot-wise) than 'biting the hand that feeds you'.
My sense comes from a lifetime experiece some good some bad, but mostly very common. Not biting any hands as no one here feeds me(TIC)
I mentioned in another post that Krenov had an 'unbalanced' view on the matter of planes. Little point in aping the same. Great messenger (he offered much to many), but this particular message/view stinks (to my nose - to be biased).Metod"
I did love the exchange though and Phillip seems like a down to earth guy which I really like.Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Bones,
"they want to brag how much they paid for something"
Ha, I can (not that is needed) present a dearly held opinion on such low life form. <g>
Best wishes,
Metod
Take care!Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Hi Bones
For your education, have a read of my review of the Marcou S15/BU Smoother.
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/The%20Marcou%20S15%20BU%20Smoother.html
In this I provide some insight into Philips manufacturing process, and compare its performance to a couple of other icons (Veritas BUS and LN #4 1/2).
This is not meant to sound like advertising for Philip. It is simply my attempt to paint a picture that enables the reader to understand just what goes into the plane (and others like this) and thereby how the pricing is justified.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Thanks for the link I read it and it was very informative.
Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Edited 2/24/2009 8:56 pm by bones
Go check out the price for a Holtey plane. Then you'll understand a little bit more. Have you ever worked metal before, to know what it's like to make a beautiful, yet functional tool that is machined to exacting tolerances, and done so by hand? Philip doesn't crank these out 4 at a time, all before lunch.
What does this statement have to do with my question? Only if you are a machinist can you ask the question? (retorical does not require a response)
If you are wondering why a few of us are becoming defensive just a bit, it's because your post regarding a tool with a veritas blade for 2k (your words) is so very offensive.
My words, Yep. I asked what would make it special with a veritas blade. It's a QUESTION. Take a deep breath and Don't get your panties in a wad. It was a serious question. In any business to charge premiums for functionally the same item one can get at a much lower price something else has to be there to set it apart. I was seriously asking if there was something else that set it apart.
Lie Nielsen, Veritas, Hock, etc.... all make outstanding quality irons for hand planes. Having the ability to order a replacement iron from a company like Veritas-Lee Valley Tools is a benefit, not a hinderance. It's the exacting standards that these planes are made to that set them apart, not the manufacturer of the iron, albeit a fantastic quality one. Just ask Lataxe and Mapleman. They have a shedful of these beauties. As soon as I get my kids gradeeeeated from college, I'll have a few, too.
As to your being offended, well hope you feel better in the morning. Have a good evening.
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it.
And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Jeff,
"If you are wondering why a few of us are becoming defensive just a bit, it's because your post regarding a tool with a veritas blade for 2k (your words) is so very offensive. "
I didn't consider Bones' message to be offensive. Actually, it is the same question I asked a few years ago. I used to wonder why anyone would pay $200 for a handplane. I remember corresponding with Philip and telling him that the total cost of all of the tools in my shop was about $4000, so $2000 for a plane was not in "context" for me.
I remember a number of posts about this question. I remember asking if it would be worth paying $30,000 or $200,000 for a handplane which was
"Better than a Holtey", and I remember asking what "Better" meant.
I like Philip, and I like nice tools. My questions were straight from the heart. I was amazed when I heard that a handplane could cost $2000, and then I heard about Holtey. EGAD!
In my mind, I never found a good answer to what "better" means for a $2000 plane. Is it worth it? Sure it is, just read anything by Lataxe. :-) Of course, Gestalt Psychology tells us that the more we pay for something, the better we think it is. Philip's answer to the cost of his planes was posted again in this thread. He rightfully says that it takes a long time to make his planes. Okay. I understand that. But suppose I designed a plane that takes twice as long to make, what have I proved? Bones doesn't care how long it takes to make the plane. His question was simply: what makes it better?
I don't think anyone answered Bones' question. Everybody talked around it. THis happens whenever this question comes up on Knots. I have come to believe that there is no answer. My guess is that the plane works pretty well. My guess is that it may work really well on gnarly grained wood from down under, which few of us from the states use.
So is there any reason to buy a Holtey? (Let's leave Philip out of this. It has nothing to do with Philip.) The answer is sure. Some people want a BMW, not a Chevy or a Toyota. Some people want Lamborghini. Some want a Maybach. If they have the funds, there is no reason they shouldn't buy it. Much of Lataxe's self-worth seems predicated on the planes he owns. It must. He talks about them incessantly. I use good tools, but I don't keep obsessing over them and telling everyone about my obsession. What I really don't understand is why Lataxe doesn't own Holtey planes, if he likes quality that much. ((Maybe all of us have our own private spending limits? Interesting question, isn't it.)
People buy expensive, nicely made things to let the rest of the world know that they have "arrived". They do so to reward themselves for a lifetime of hard work. These are all excellent reasons for buying a Maybach, a Mount Blanc, or a Holtey.
However, I think that Bones was asking how much better the tool is for woodworking, and not for its value as "art". He mentioned that.
YOu may wonder why I am blathering on and on about this. THe answer is because it took me a LONG time to figure out who populates Knots, and especially who populates the HandTools section. I believe the group is highly populated with older affluent tool collectors, many of who are also tool users. They (we, actually) are about as unbiased in our unabashed love for expensive tools, as the College of Cardinals is biased toward the Catholic Church. Let's face it. It is fun to hang out with one's own kind. :-) Like minded people who encourage the continued spending of big money on nice tools. The term "Need" is really hard to define.
Please don't be offended by this. I know Bones offended you. I mean no offense. Actually, I am far more intellectually stimulated by people who have views different from my own, than by folks who think similarly. I am not offended by them. I thank them for the challenge. Without them, life would be dull.
Holtey and Marcou are heros to me. They are self starters and entrepreneurs. They take chances, and they make things. They are the type of people who inspire! The fact that they make things that are out of my price league is irrelevant. There are lots of folks who do that. I drive a Toyota, and am darned proud of it.
Let's go a bit farther with this. I once wrote to Philip about finding a way to bring down the price of his excellent planes, and suggested some ways. There is no doubt that my suggestions would have reduced the "quality" of his planes a bit, but it would have reduced the price by a factor of four. I did this in all intellectual honesty. I was not being offensive or mean. I thought it would be good for the field of woodworking to have a "Junior Marcou" plane available that cost the same as a LV or an LN but was of much higher "quality", whatever that is. Philip did not care for my suggestion. I still think it is a good one.
Anyway, I hope that this explains why I take no offense at Bones' question. I am sure that someone will take my post as "anti-Philip" which it is definitely not. Anyone with half a brain can see that I am a supporter of Philip and of Mr. Holtey, and of anyone who can successfully sell planes that cost twice what Holtey's cost.
Have fun. I actually wrote this more for myself, than for you. You just gave me the impetus to write it down.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
>> I once wrote to Philip about finding a way to bring down the price of his excellent planes, and suggested some ways. There is no doubt that my suggestions would have reduced the "quality" of his planes a bit, but it would have reduced the price by a factor of four.
OK, I'll bite. Would you care to elaborate on this, please?
p.s. No need to be concerned, Philip. I'm not after more work at all :-)
Handplane Central
C.R.,
YOu asked about my suggestion to Philip to produce his planes at a much lower cost, where a small decrement in "perfection" would be ok. I suggested that he think about having them made in China UNDER CAREFUL SUPERVISION! You can get excellent stuff made in China, BUT ONLY UNDER CAREFUL SUPERVISION, and with the right controls. My guess is that even excellent craftsmen would not do as well as Philip, so there would be some decrement in perfection. However the metal and woodworking techniques are not "brain surgery". They can be taught and learned. For the right reward, I believe a third world country might be happy to get the work, the training and the supervision. My goal in suggesting this to Philip was to make excellent quality, maybe not perfection (as defined by a Holtey) could be made available to many more woodworkers if the prict could be brought down. I fully understand Philip's reluctance to let someone else make his planes. By making more of these planes, they would lose their "cachet", but it would widen the sales possibilities for excellent planes. My understanding of Philip's mind is that it is going in the Holtey direction, and not away from it. I believe Philip would like to be Holtey's "equal", and maybe even surpass him. That would be wonderful. I applaud him. Philip is a mover and a shaker, not a shrinking wallflower. I hope that he moves as far in the direction that he wants to go as possible.What Philip and I differ on is that I would like to see MANY MANY more, not fewer woodworkers be able to have access to his planes.. I'd like to see them sold by Woodcraft and Rockler. I'd like to see Philip put a scare into Rob Lee and Tom Lie Nielsen. (not that I dislike Rob and Tom, I just like competition.)When it came time to sell the "Chinese Marcous", I would market them differently. I'd do what Derek Cohen does. Take two planes and a piece of Jarrah or other squirrly grained wood, and show how one plane does it better than the other. I LIKE REAL DEMONSTRATIONS OF QUALITY.Does that explain?
I sure hope Philip does not take this negatively. I fully support what he is doing. He needs to move in HIS direction, not mine. He is the expert. I am merely a user of planes.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
We've got anywhere between 1.2B to 1.5B people living in China (and some very knowledgeable folks discuss if in fact 300 M people exist or not).
There is absolutely no doubt that if you search long and hard enough (and treat your partners with due respect) you will find craftsmen that will produce planes that far exceeds anything we are able to produced. They might even teach us a thing or two about woodworking and generation of tangible wealth. ---
Chris Scholz
Dallas/Fort Worth, TX
Galoot-Tools
Chris,
YOu sound like an intelligent and reasonable man.
I gotta get to know you better.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
C.R.,YOu asked about my suggestion to Philip to produce his planes at a much lower cost, where a small decrement in "perfection" would be ok. I suggested that he think about having them made in China UNDER CAREFUL SUPERVISION! You can get excellent stuff made in China, BUT ONLY UNDER CAREFUL SUPERVISION, and with the right controls. My guess is that even excellent craftsmen would not do as well as Philip, so there would be some decrement in perfection. However the metal and woodworking techniques are not "brain surgery". They can be taught and learned. For the right reward, I believe a third world country might be happy to get the work, the training and the supervision.
Hi Mel
Rather than responding to your post here, I would like to raise this is our own little "cafe". Here is the link:
http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=37729.5695
Regards from Perth
Derek
Thanks for that, 9619. The suggestion does have some merit, but it requires a whole new approach to it. I think the fact that Philip really enjoys making his planes from the ground up suggests that he wouldn't be getting the same level of satisfaction if he were to farm the work out to someone else. If he wanted to pursue it from a strictly money-making business model, rather than an artistic business model, then that would be something to consider. In fact it would be a very valid way to go.Not saying that I know exactly how Philip feels, but I might have an idea.
Handplane Central
Record Planes
C.R,
I agree with you. I have stated often that Philip must follow his own dream, and he is doing so, and I applaud him for doing that.So let's keep the thought but change the person involved. The thought is: let's try to make top notch quality planes available to most woodworkers at a very low price. Let's think about Tom Lie Nielsen and/or Rob Lee. Both seem content to make a medium number of good planes a year and sell them for a number of hundred dollars each. Each controls quality closely and locally, I believe. That's nice. Each is a much bigger operation than Philip's, and thus qualitatively different.I am reminded of the time when Steve Jobs of Apple Corp. was trying to recruit John Scully to come to Apple from Coca Cola. He said: "do you want to sell sugar water for the rest of your life or do you want to come with me and change the world."Think about that statement for a second and then turn to either Tom or Rob, and say, "Do you want to sit around making a few thousand planes a year, OR DO YOU WANT TO REVOLUTIONIZE THE WORLD OF WOODWOKING WORLDWIDE RIGHT NOW!"Let's use Tom as an example, but you can substitute Rob in the following. Suppose Tom says, No I don't want shift work to China. I want to employ as many Americans as possible. My response would be. Well Tom, if you move your operation to China, you might just quadruple the number of Americans you have in your organization, but they would be in management, oversight, marketing and sales, and then of course, there would be the thousands of others in countries across the world.So Tom, why dont you switch from a small US plane maker, to a man who teaches the Chinese how to make GREAT PLANES which your people design, and make the specifications for, and do quality control over before accepting. Your people will have to train some Chinese to become top notch plane makers, and you will have to have some people on-site for the manufacturing. But the result would be to make your current models and sell them for a quarter of the price, and meanwhile you could expand your lines to include wooden planes and infills, etc. These would sell at a quarter the current cost of boutique planes. Then woodworkers who have no super high quality planes and only a few good quality planes would be able to have a number of them for the same price. More folks could get into fine woodworking. Woodworking is diminishing in size. It is only a matter of time before it dies out. YOU COULD TURN THIS THING AROUND. And you could make a LOT OF MONEY DOING IT, besides making a lot of woodworkers very happy. What do you think?
Does it have a ring to it?My believe is that if Tom or Rob don't do this, someone else will. Indeed, as we know with the Wood River planes, it is already happening. If Tom or Rob don't do this, they may go the way of once previously great plane makers, and it may happen soon. I believe Rob is in a better position because he sells lots of stuff besides woodworking, but Lie Nielsen is much more confined to just woodworking. I would guess they will suffer the most from the coming onslaught of Chinese woodworking equipment, much of which will focus on taking the bread right out of his mouth. There is a light at the end of the tunnel. And the light is a train, and it is coming at us. Should we try to take over, or just run?But than again, what do I know?Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
More folks could get into fine woodworking. Woodworking is diminishing in size. It is only a matter of time before it dies out. YOU COULD TURN THIS THING AROUND. And you could make a LOT OF MONEY DOING IT, besides making a lot of woodworkers very happy.
I don't believe this, and haven't seen anything that would lead me to this suspicion. Producing a large number of planes in China would only lead to a large number of lower cost planes on the market.
With regards to Phillip, I believe there is a vast difference between what he does and what LN or Veritas does. The latter two both mass produce planes, Phillip does them one or two at a time. There is a certain value in that, that's identical to woodworking.
Another potential option to contemplate could be to sell American/Western made Planes into the emerging and potentially huge market of an affluent Chinese middle class.---
Chris Scholz
Dallas/Fort Worth, TX
Galoot-Tools
Chris,
"Another potential option to contemplate could be to sell American/Western made Planes into the emerging and potentially huge market of an affluent Chinese middle class."ABSOLUTELY. And it doesn't stop with China.Can you imagine a "High Class IKEA" which made and widely distributed a large line of finely crafted furniture, which could be shipped efficiently, and assembled by purchasers far far away. I would like to see Woodworking become a big thing. My vision is not limited to expanding the markets for woodworking tools. I don't imagine that any of the professionals on Knots would be interested in making many many copies of a finely crafted piece of furniture that can be packed neatly in an IKEA-like carton for shipping. It would be boring work. However a country that is hungry and has people willing to learn how to do skilled woodwork, might see it as a good thing.My prediction:
Those who are going to affect China's production of tools are already well along on their path, and it already includes LV and LN-quality tools. That horse has already left the barn. When these tools hit the market in a big way, in a few months, (barring a problem with quality), many will switch from LN and LV to Wood River, for example. This does not bode well for LN and LV. If they do not get ahead of the game, it could well be the beginning of their end. I see no real effect on the "boutique plane makers". Their market share is too small and well defined, and those folks are not "going to buy Chinese". Final thought - can you imagine how easy it would be for the Chinese to do a mass production of wooden planes (moulding planes, hollows and rounds, ploughs, dados, moving fillisters, etc. Heck, there are plenty of books and videos out on how to make wooden planes. I don't know if there is a big enough market for this type of stuff for an investment to be made. Can you imagine a Half Set of Hollows and Rounds for $300 - fully sharpened), a nice moving fillister for $50. Sometimes it is not worth the effort to set up the router, and it is easier and quicker to use hand tools. Unfortunately the darned collectors have driven up the prices of the old wooden planes. Sure would be nice to be able to get fine new wooden planes for what the old ones cost thirty years ago. Every once in a while, it is fun to let the mind run wild and think about what the world will be like. Of course, such predictions are not too reliable. :-)Enjoy,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
Get a Japan Woodworker catalog and you will find wooden Chinese made "hollows and rounds" and a plough plane at the prices you have posted. These have been available at this price range for years.
T.Z.
Tony,
Thanks for the info on the Japan Woodworker catalog. Very interesting. Is the quality lo, med, hi? I would guess on the low side.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I've never handled one although 5 or 6 years ago, before I picked up my vintage H & Rs (not a matched half or full set like yours!), I seriously considered these. Someone with far more knowledge should weigh in here and correct my inaccuracies, if I make any! I believe the planes are "Mujinfang" and if I'm not mistaken, some of these are also available at other retailers such as LV.
I believe Derek Cohen has had some experience with at least one style of these planes, so Derek, if you see this please weigh in.
Anyhow, my belief is that world economies grow, there is room for exporting and importing goods that originate in one portion or another of the world, without the need for predatory manufacturing. This can be best demonstrated by the influx of Japanese woodworking tools in the US and to a lesser extent, to the Mujinfang planes. Can't remember his last name--Christopher S., I believe, has made a business of Chinese made high end plane blades, etc. Cost of these tools are many times the cost of a Hock or an LN.
The issue many in the US have is my aforementioned predatory manufacturing and marketing. For the Wood River, Borg, Grant brands to succeed in distribution will require a concerted effort by Woodcraft, Japan Woodworker and Tilgear to deliberately market these brands against LV and LN. This is not something I'm going to get my shorts in a knot over, although I'm not in favor of deliberate copying of trade marked/ patented tools, such as some of the LV tools. The Bedrock design has been in the public domain for decades, but to deliberately make a tool similar enough in appearance that a consumer is confused is also wrong.
Low cost knock-off tools made in the Pacific Rim have been in this country since the late 70's. Remember AMT? They were one of the first to introduce Taiwan & Chinese knock-offs of both hand and power tools. Harbor Freight has also been around for years and fills a very low segment of the market. How about Grizzly? Even after nearly 25 years they are still known mainly as a low cost marketer of tools of acceptable consumer/hobbyist levels in spite of trying to give an impression of industrial quality (just try to get one of their motors repaired, or watch the life of bearings in saw trunnions, etc.).
Personally, I will not purchase any of these knock-off tools, although I would (sometime) buy one of the Mujinfangs. The Woodriver line also makes me suspect of what other off-shore items Woodcraft will be selling. Prior to the Woodriver intro, I held Woodcraft as a respectable retailer, but today I don't hold it in the same regard for the simple reason of their intent to deceive. There used to be a very fine retailer, that was the first employer of one Tom Lie-Nielsen. That was Garret Wade. After establishing themselves as a retailer of some of the better grades of tools, they lost their way, filling their catalogs with lesser quality items, but at higher quality prices.
Let me return to my comment on predatory marketing: I believe this is more the issue than country of origin. This is what aggravates and incites the protectionism discussion and the marketing starts here in the US.
What, though, do we want in the US? Do we want to maintain a free market system or protectionism? Capitalism or socialism?
OK, time to get back into the shop. I only have a couple more hours to myself today. Around noon my nine year daughter & I have to attend a "build clinic" for our local Soap Box Derby. I'm a race sponsor and also a car sponsor, which, of course, my daughter will drive!
T.Z.
Hi Tony
Mujingfang. I have not used the hollows and rounds. What I do recall hearing is that the Chinese design the H&R angles differently from the traditional Western plane - for example the hollow is deeper. In other words, these planes are not compatible with Western H&R planes.
If you are searching out new H&Rs, then you should have a look at the HNT Gordon website: http://www.hntgordon.com.au/
View Image
These are available in 1/2", 3/4", 1", and 1 1/4".
Mujingfang do make some wonderful planes. Their high angled (63 degrees) smoother is the plane that Lyn Mangiameli wrote so glowingly about. The HNT Gordon planes are based on a traditional Chinese (Malaysian) design, but he makes every one himself. His blades are 1/4" thick, while the Mujis are 1/8".
Chis Scholz is importing Chinese-made laminated blades for Stanley planes, infills, and woodies. These go under Galoot Tools. I have a couple and must say that they are first class. Not a cheap import. These are quality, handmade, and expensive.
I reviewed one here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/Galoot%20Tools%20Performance%20Series%20Bench%20Plane%20Blade.html
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,
Haven't heard Lyn's name mentioned in quite a while! Is he doing OK?
I want to be careful with the direction some of the discussion is going with off-shore/out-sourced manufacturing. I wanted to mention Mujinfang as a Chinese low-cost style (if I'm not mistaken, there are multiple manufacturers) of a quality product.
Here in the States, the issue becomes problematic with the substitution of a domestic made product with a product the appears the same, but without the same quality level.
There has been much misinformation demonstrated on many forums with opinions simply denigrating foreign products with the ignorance of the part domestic distribution plays in specifying price point, quality level of the product and ensuring the quality level. I am an American manufacturer who is concerned with maintaining sales in a problematic economy. I don't worry about off-shore, I worry about my own. If we do our job, we retain our sales. But doing our job means constantly finding better ways to reduce inefficiencies and share savings with our customers (automotive). We export nearly 35% of our sales, with markets in India, Ireland, Australia and Canada (these are also mature products as far as life cycle goes).
I'm not sure of why Mel made the suggestion to Phillip Marcou and only Mel can truly answer that question. I don't mind a good natured discussion of protectionism, but this is a topic that can get very nasty very quickly.
Anyhow, my break has ended! I'm down to only another hour or so until family duties call me away from the drawer fitting I'm doing. Drawer fronts are tiger maple and needed more than a bit of dressing. Was almost a pleasure, though! Been using my LV LABU smoother with a toothed blade, followed with a LN with a high angle frog. Have a good remaining weekend!
T.Z.
Hi Tony
I haven't heard from Lyn in a couple of years. He keeps a low profile partly, as I heard, that he had not been well. I believe that he is still completing pre-production testing for LV (as both Alf and I do). He did write an article for FWW a few years back.
Had Mel not made the comments which I found too outrageous (even for him :) ) that I felt needed to be aired, I would simply have kept my thoughts to myself. This is not a wagon that I really wish to push. On the other hand I do find the points of view others hold interesting.
To Lataxe - David, we shall disagree on this one (although I understand where you are coming from). Happily we see eye-to-eye on so much more. Oh, and Happy Birthday!
Regards from Perth
Derek
Mujingfangs are some of the best value-for-money planes I've ever used.
Handplane Central
Record Planes
Tony,
A very balanced post. For the sake of argument I'll contest this statement, though:
"....but to deliberately make a tool similar enough in appearance that a consumer is confused is also wrong".
A short riposte might be "caveat emptor". Another woud be that consumers are not nearly so confused as you imply, by a bit of appearance "deception" - especially if they are woodworkers who have done some research concerning what's available in the market.
I do agree that there is a sort of hijacking of a brand "look" going on. But isn't it just like fashion and style-copying in clothing or any other manufactured article in today's market? It seems a norm to me and not something per se to affect a buying decision or to invoke ethics about.
I like to buy on quality of the goods and fitness for purpose. The "look" is on the list of attributes to consider but anyone who buys something fundamentally for the look is just a fashion victim.
Lataxe
Edited 2/28/2009 10:51 am ET by Lataxe
I find "looks" to be something to be savored from a distance, particularly if the Missus is carrying a large rolling pin (I say this in jest as I married one 5 years younger than I! She has aged far better then I have).
T.Z.
Tony,
ENjoyed your post on predatory marketing. I went to the Japanwoodworker website as you suggested and looked at what they had. They also sell the Wood River stuff. Interesting. I thought it was just at Woodcraft. I wonder what is really going on.They have a lot of wood planes including the mugifang. Can't tell the quality from a photo. Some of the prices looked high. Some looked low. Couldn't tell much about the hollows and rounds.So it was a wash.
I think I will leave this line of discussion now, and go back to honing the backs of my #45. Obviously the hard part was the first grit. Now I am up to 320 grit, and things are moving quickly. I will finish polishing the backs and then do the bevels. Enjoy.
I learned a lot from your letting me know about what is available at Japanwoodworker. It was an eyeopener. You sure do know a lot of stuff.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I wonder how you would feel if Woodcraft (or NASA) stocked their stores with Chinese employees (UNDER CAREFUL SUPERVISION, OF COURSE). Instead of that $6 per hour you make they could replace you with a bowl of rice a day and a small place to put a straw mat.
Ha Ha Ha
Lee
lee,
First they came after the ones who had private jets, but I said nothing, because I didn't have a private jet...
Then they came after the ones with bowls for their rice.
Ray
Lee,
You underestimate me!!!!
You think I make $6 per hour.
You are wrong.
I make $8 per hour.
But as you know full well, I don't work there for the money. Just today, I met a guy who lives next door to Ray Pine, and I met a guy from England who lives near David Savage and knows him well. I meet very interesting people at Woodcraft. If you look through Woodcraft, you will see an ever increasing percentage of tools that come from China, and their low prices together with acceptable quality cause them to sell well. The new Wood River planes could be a BIG NEW PUSH in this area. We shall see.It is coming, my friend.
You will either join in, or get swept aside.
There is no stopping the train of Chinese woodworking equipment what will flood the world. There is NO WAY TO STOP IT. But there are ways to help it move in better or worse directions.Enjoy.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
MelohMel,
Your mind (and eyes) are so closed. Doncha read what anyone else writes?
"I don't think anyone answered Bones' question. Everybody talked around it. THis happens whenever this question comes up on Knots. I have come to believe that there is no answer".
Read the posts, Mel - there are lots of very cogent answers. Perhaps what you mean is you can't find The Right And Wholly Objective Answer True In All Universes That Accords With Mel's Weird World View? There is certainly not an answer of that ilk; indeed there isn't such an answer to any question you could conceive on any subject, I suspect. Planet Mel seems to be in another dimension entirely.
"My guess is that the plane works pretty well. My guess is that it may work really well on gnarly grained wood from down under, which few of us from the states use".
No need for you to guess - any number of trustworthy Knots lads have told you this is the case. Of course, you may not do trust.
"Much of Lataxe's self-worth seems predicated on the planes he owns. It must. He talks about them incessantly. I use good tools, but I don't keep obsessing over them and telling everyone about my obsession. What I really don't understand is why Lataxe doesn't own Holtey planes, if he likes quality that much."
I suppose I could argue away on these very silly allegations and point at your own tool-gloats. But I'll confine myself to a rueful grin and an "Aieeee" of frustration at your constant attributing of motives wholly foreign to those you denigrate in order to find "evidence" for your "case" agin 'em. Did I mention: Aieeeeeeee!
"YOu may wonder why I am blathering on and on about this"
Not really. One just accepts that you blather (and blather and blather).
"Please don't be offended by this".
Shurely shome mishtake? You really mean, "I am stabbing you with these assasinations of your characters but I want to pretend I am a hail-fellow-well-met bloke really". In fact you seem to be getting more spiteful by the post. Still, it is hard to be offended by a blatherin' eejit, at bottom. We must just sigh and wish the doctors could get your meds right.
"I once wrote to Philip about finding a way to bring down the price of his excellent planes, and suggested some ways. There is no doubt that my suggestions would have reduced the "quality" of his planes a bit, but it would have reduced the price by a factor of four".
Hee hee heee heee. That puts the cap on your very entertaining post, oh yes. I wonder why Mr Marcou did not fly you over there first class immediately. (No I don't).
Lataxe, Mel-student and would-be dissector (just lie on this board a while and ignore those big pins).
Sir David, appears we were typing at the same time . . . but obviously you are faster than me on the keyboard.
David,
Enjoyed your response. I remember you using the term "Mel-baiting" a time or two. Do you remember?
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
"I am sure that someone will take my post as 'anti-Philip' which it is definitely not."
Well, Mel, I, for one, did not take it that way. I sensed it was more "anti-Lataxe".
My current debate is trying to analyze what your comment means from the perspective of what the shrinks call "projection" and the rest of us miscreants refer to as "slang for male appendage-envy." Why even comment on your thoughts about what makes him tick? Why even throw in the gratuitous "slam"? It added nothing to your post, and only serves to make arseholes like me go WTF?, and then lash out at you.
"He talks about them incessantly. I use good tools, but I don't keep obsessing over them and telling everyone about my obsession."
I simply cannot believe you wrote this; have you ever read any of your own posts? Reminds me of the old adage about the pot calling the kettle black . . . . .
End of my rant, for now . . . .
Edited 2/26/2009 10:32 am by stpatrick
Patrick,
Ouch. Touche!Would have liked to hear your take on the central issue rather than the side issue. But side issues are more entertaining.Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
"I actually wrote this more for myself, than for you."Mel-I have a suggestion. Just for sport, see if you can write a message without using the first person singular pronoun. I have noted over the course of reading many, many posts of yours, that the majority of them, particularly the most long-winded ones, wind up being about Mel. For each post giving your opinions of others' business goals or personal motives or the personalities of people who use hand tools or stressing the sincerity of questions you have asked in the past, would you please try to write a counterbalancing one on some woodworking topic.I write this more for your benefit than mine.Don
Don,
Thank you very much for your thoughtful and insightful message. You are able to peer deeply into the souls of men. That is a wonderful gift.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel
"Of course, Gestalt Psychology tells us that the more we pay for something, the better we think it is," For me, that ranks right up there with "studies show," and preceding it with "of course" doesn't enhance its verity. Psychology is like Economics -- you can find an expert to support almost any point of view. I have 5 ultracheap Zona saws and one Wentzloff. If there was a Zona that could have done the same job as the Wentz, I'd have bought it -- but there isn't. You can't massproduce that kind of quality. But for many jobs a Zona is quite sufficient, and I think very highly of them. I didn't buy the Wentz because it was a work of art: the quality of the tool adds to the enjoyment of my work every time I use it. It didn't hurt that I knew it was handmade by someone who cares deeply about what bears his name. I'm quite happy with my old Stanley planes, but when I have to fill a gap I buy the best I can afford -- usually Veritas -- for my own pleasure. If a Holtey did a better job or gave me more pleasure I'd buy it if I could afford it. I wouldn't feel the need to telegraph the purchase to the world. There's a continuum of quality in any commodity, and who has the right to say that we should all stop at a Veritas rather than a Holtey to satisfy some communal Puritanical urge? I wouldn't spend $1500 on a handtool, but I've spent more than that on a limited edition book -- which, like the Holtey, is now worth more than I paid for it. It makes economic sense, it adds to my quality of life, and though I don't usually gloat about my possessions, I don't begrudge anyone else who is so pleased over a product that he wants to share his pleasure. Different strokes.
Cheers, Jim
Jim,
Loved your message.
You are a very wise man.
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Jeff, you have more than enough appreciative supporters/friends out here.
Well, a heart-felt thank you, laddy!
Jeff
Jeff,
I enjoyed your response thoroughly. You answered in a thoughtful, intelligent manner, and IMHO, you were, as always, completely believable. I am glad you agree on the reason for buying a HIGH END plane. I am glad that you pointed out that I am not anti-Philip. I have written Philip a number of private messages over the years, and made suggestions about marketing, and means of selling his planes, etc. I asked for nothing in return. I admire the guy and would like to see more people be able to enjoy his wares. I WOULD LIKE TO HAVE A REAL MARCOU. I drool at the photos of his planes.
It is good to have a discussion with someone who focusses on the central issue. One of my favorite signs says, "Any paradigm that ceases to focus on central issues is dead."
Have fun.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
It's really painful to read such squabblindg amongst family, especially Lataxe and Mel...so YOU KIDS STOP IT!!!!!
There, I feel better
I love my Marcou smoother and I think it was worth every penny...I have an LN 4 1/2 as well as a Bridge City low angle smoother (bought on sale)...I can't think of the last time I used the LN, not because it isn't a really good plane but the Marcou is so much better....the more experience I gain, the more I appreciate it...obviously there is alot that goes into deciding to buy a plane like Philip's and it's all personal...some, even with the funds, would not dream of spending that much money...they derive too much pleasure from rehabbing old planes and making them sing and feel that they got great value for their money...tools are tools. The value and significance we assign them is purely personal and hurts no one.
It's difficult to believe this discussion deteriorated into fighting and namecalling. Shame......shame.
.Neil, who just built an Asian style garden bench in the intermediate category and now is rethinking his Knots monniker.
By the way, I noticed the plane in question is no longer on ebay. Did it sell?
Neil
auction expired, no saleNo representation without taxation
Headmaster Neil,
I am the contrite schoolboy and hereby promise to be good (hoping you don't see my fingers crossed behind my back). But please sir, sir - it was that Mel's fault, he made a face at me!
Lataxe, semi-abject tool gloater.
Mel would never make a face at you. Now you two shake hands and go out a play..and no more Mel baiting, you're too good at it. Mel is a nice guy. He's also of Italian heritage which makes him opinionated. I can't remember which end of the boot he hails from but if it's the southern end I'd watch my step if I were you..
Neil, the cautious Scot
Neil,
Thank you for that- it sums it up. If I had the loot I would order either a standard Breguet watch or ask Mr Daniels to make me what he thinks I should have (;).
Could we have a look at you garden bench (made with Teak?) whilst the others are at the bun fight?Philip Marcou
Good morning Philip,
The bench in question is made from cedar, mostly Western red although there are a few pieces of aromatic in there somewhere...since Teak is running about 38 dollars a board foot and this was my first run at an intermediate project and something one sits upon I thought it better to make a "prototype" of a lesser wood...turns out this was a good decision as I made my usual number of dumb mistakes and had to make a few parts over...I haven't applied a finish yet.. there are 40 hand cut M-T joints.....as to your request for a picture I'm flattered and may make this the impetus to learn how to post pictures on this forum....currently I am making shoji screens to place in front of my bookcases in a room that has gone decidedly Asian in style....emboldened by my recent success with the bench I decided to make the screens from mahogany and have made frequent use of my prized Marcou smoother..so far they have exceeded my expectations and even impressed my wife who is abit of a perfectionist and not easily impressed....
Neil
Mel,
Your post was long, and I don't have alot of time right now. I'll read the rest, and give my best answers later.
As far as 'bones' goes, we have history. I know his synical attitude from his script, because I've had enough rounds in the ring with him in the past, so to speak. His statement of "2k plane w/ veritas blade" was the beginning of slam against Philips decision to have that blade in his planes.
Wow, we've had rounds? I'm sorry I don't recall those? If we did have rounds they were not memorable sorry. As to my intent on my question, dang, I thought my wife was the only one that knew what I was thinking about? (psst.. the question was answered very well by Phillip and others but thanks for your input)
I don't have many friends.
Sorry to hear that.
Philip is one of them. I also have a hockey players mentality. Can't help it, I was raised with it. If someone is working one of my friends over, I'm not going to sit idly by and watch it happen. Sorry.....just can't do...never will. If you don't understand where I'm coming from, then ask Bob (kidderville acres), as I believe he understands the mindset of a hockey player.
Take a breath step back and realize you know know everything. And asking questions (this was how I was raised) was how we learn and acquire information and its not insulting (try it sometime)
Besides that, I enjoy seeing how easy it is to get under 'bones' skin.
Nope, you're ok no problem here. You are the one that thinks someones getting worked over.
He always, and I mean always, replies back to me with quotes from my post, as well as his synical, rhetorical statements of rebuttal. I rather enjoy getting a rise out of him, because its so easy.....
It's so my answers are put into perspective and easily understood. If you don't like ok I'll just have to live with that.
Hard to explain, but I am that I am.....
Jeff
Try a line from one of my favorite movies Anger managment with Adam Sandler, repeat "Gooozfraba...Goozfraba...Goozfraba" over a few times you will feel better!
Seriously, have a good day!
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it.
And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
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