Replies

1. 
   jonsherryl | Feb 01, 2004 06:51pm | #1

   Brian, all of the true mahoganies (members of the mahogany family; Meliaceae) have quite good decay resistance, but I can't tell from your description what species you are considering here. The three major timbers in this family that are native to Mexico are: genuine mahogany ( AKA "honduras" mahogany, caoba; Swietenia macrophylla, native to extreme southern Mexico), Mexican mahogany (a close relative of genuine mahogany; Swietenia humilis, native mostly to the Pacific coast) and the softer and lighter colored "Spanish cedars" (AKA cedro, in the genus Cedrela, mostly Cedrela odorata or C. mexicana.)

   Any of these species would have excellent weathering properties and I think your decision would rest more on cost and working properties. The two Swietenia species are darker in color, denser and stronger than the Cedrela species, which tend to be softer, a little more uneven (almost ring-porous) in texture and rather gummy. The latter is easier to work, but not as strong and the gum tends to bleed through finishes, if you intend to paint this millwork.

   However, I think the bigger question is; are these woods you are considering actually all mahoganies? The common name "mahogany" is much abused, so you should ask your dealer for the botanical names of the woods, if he knows them, or at least some description of the species that produces them that will allow you to track down exactly what they are. The Mexican lumber trade isn't totally based on domestic species...so, just as here in the U.S., you could be dealing with something as far afield as the Asian lauans or one of several South American timbers, such as banak or virola. This doesn't mean that these other woods are necessarily inferior, but most of them don't have the decay resistance and stability typical of true mahoganies.     

1. 
   brianmexico | Feb 02, 2004 05:07pm | #2

   Thank you for your excelent advice. You answered almost all my questions. When I wrote the question in this forum (my first time) I was sceptical about including the names that are commonly used here. The first species that I mentioned which I believe are the ones you call true mahoganies are called caoba here in Mexico. The second species that I mentioned is called banak. What I didn't know is that this comes from south america, I had an idea that it might be from asia but your response has clarified that. So which of the two do you think is better caoba or banak? The first feels much heavier but the second seems to have held up well in other projects that I have made. The banak is less expensive and not as attractive as the caoba but because this project doesn't involve that many board feet I'm not too worried about the cost. 'There are three other woods here that I enjoy working with but I'm not sure what the names are in english, maybe you could give me a hand. 1- cedro - looks and feels similar to mahogany but with a name like cedar I'm not sure what it is (is this the spanish cedar that you mentioned?) 2- habillo - looks like walnut, very heavy. 3 - primavera - light colored hard wood, looks like a cross between hickory and maple. Thanks for your advice.

   One more question - I recently went to the lumber store and got a good deal on several boards of wood that the guy at the lumber store called "teka". He told me that the wood came from plantations here in mexico but I thought that teak was from overseas. Several of these boards are definitely teak but about half of them came out looking very different after planing. They are from the center of the tree and are remarkably beautiful. The heartwood is very hard and the color of walnut, the surrounding wood is very light colored and seems harder then the other teak that I have. I have found that teak is generally soft. Is this a surprise mystery wood or is there more then one variety of teak?

1. 
   jonsherryl | Feb 02, 2004 07:09pm | #3

   Okay Brian, that's quite a laundry list of questions, but lets take it from the top...and if I miss anything, you can follow up:

   Caoba is the Mexican name for genuine mahogany (typically the "Honduras" variety; Swietenia macrophylla, and the domestic Mexican supply is primarily from the Yucatan region in extreme southeastern Mexico.)

   Banak is the common name for timbers cut from several species in the genus Virola, native mostly to the Guianas and north central Brazil. This genus belongs to the nutmeg family; Myristicaceae...so, while the wood has a faint resemblance to the true mahoganies, it's not at all closely related. Personally, I think banak is a nicer substitute for genuine mahogany than are the lauans (Philippine mahoganies) from Southeast Asia. It's finer textured (not as stringy) as the lauans and it's pleasant to work with, because of its mild, spicy scent...However, for the project you describe I'd definitely recommend that you go with the genuine mahogany (caoba), since it has vastly superior decay resistance.

   The Spanish term cedro (and the English equivalent, cedar) is one of the most abuse common names in the lumber trade. It derives from the Old World cedar, belonging to the genus Cedrus (AKA cedar-of- Lebanon.) Woods in this softwood (gymnosperm) genus have a characteristic resinous scent...and when the Spanish explorers discovered the New World mahogany species in the genus Cedrela, which just happen to have a similar scent, they began calling them "cedro", even though they are broadleaf, hardwood (angiosperm) species and not at all related to the Old World true cedars. These Cedrela species (there are about a half dozen of them scattered all over Latin America) are actually mahoganies, even though they are lighter in color and usually less dense than other mahoganies...much as butternut is actually a walnut, but much lighter and softer than is black walnut.

   Unfortunately, the term cedro also gets applied to other woods, such as "cedro macho" (another mahogany relative; AKA andiroba, or Carapa, native to northern South America) and some woods that aren't even in the mahogany family...But if what you are buying has a strong resinous (cigar box) scent and a mahogany-like figure, chances are it is most likely one of the Cedrelas.

   Habillo is a common name for the Mexican species; Hura polyandra. The Hura genus belongs to the rubbertree family; Euphorbiaceae, but another of its species (Hura crepitans) is the more widespread and better known wood in this genus (AKA; hura, javillo, sandbox, possumwood.) On a selected basis, this genus produces some nice cabinetwoods, but its latex sap can be irritating and some woodworkers develop an allergic reaction to it...so, be careful.

   Primavera (Cybistax donnell-smithii) is a Central American cabinetwood (most plentiful along the Pacific coast of southern Mexico and further south) that was once much more popular than it is now. Because of its light, creamy amber color and mahogany-like figure, it was thought of as sort of a "blonde mahogany"...but it actually belongs to the Bignoniaceae family and is more closely related to ipe (and our native catalpa) than it is to genuine mahogany. It's an outstanding cabinetwood...however, it has been so mercilessly logged over the past two centuries that it is now very scarce. You're lucky to have a local source for it.

   Teak (Tectona grandis) is native to Southeast Asia, but it is now plantation grown throughout the tropics. While it grows well on a plantation basis, the wood seems to vary considerably in terms of density and color, depending upon soil type and growing conditions. The teak family; Verbenaceae, consists mostly of small shrubs and teak in really the only major timber producing species. There is another widespread genus in this family (Vitex) which has a few New World species that produce some lumber...but I suspect the "teka" you are getting is plantation teak.  

1. 
   brianmexico | Feb 02, 2004 07:59pm | #4

   Thanks for taking the time to fill me in about all these things. I love woodworking and have been working in the trade since I was 13 years old. I'm totally self taught, and never aprenticed with anyone, I design my own custom furniture and it sells fairly well. I love what I do and look forward to experimenting and learning more each day. It's great to learn these new facts about what I'm doing down here. The primavera is a great wood to work with and I have found the habillo somewhat uncomfortable to work. I have to use long sleeves and a mask to be comfortable. The cedro does have that great cigarbox scent you are talking about. I need to buy myself a comprehensive book about wood species with some good color photos of the different grain patterns. On my next trip up to the states I'll be going to the book store.

   Thanks again for your time and I would just like to say that for being my first experience using the internet and comunicating with others over the internet this has been a great first step.

2. 
   CharlieP | Feb 03, 2004 06:03am | #5

   I admire your knowledge and the ability to communicate it.  But I sure hope you had a cheat-sheet that you referred to in all these answers.  If it all came off the top of your head, it is too scary!

   Thanks for your contributions to this forum and to this industry.  ________________________Charlie Plesums  Austin, Texashttp://www.plesums.com/wood

1. 
   jonsherryl | Feb 03, 2004 07:09am | #6

   Charlie, I'm not that good. I know these families of timbers pretty well and have written articles on a couple of them...but I had to check the spelling of several of the botanical names...and I wasn't sure of the common name; habillo until I looked it up in Timbers of the New World, by Record and Hess. But once I had it identified as a species in the genus Hura, I'm very familiar with several timbers in this genus and have experimented with them. Fact is, years ago I damn near killed myself working with a species in this rubbertree family (Euphorbiaceae) called pilon. Beautiful stuff. Looked almost like walnut, but sanding it without a mask left me wheezing for the better part of a week...so, I've learned a lot of this the hard way.

2. 
   forestgirl | Feb 03, 2004 07:54am | #7

   Jon, there's a related question I've had in mind recently:  What was the mahogany that was used in American furniture in the early- to mid-1900's?  Is it a species that's still plentiful, or are we now working with substitutes?  If it's one that's pretty much disappeared, how did it different from the Honduras mahogany?forestgirl Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)  you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)

1. 
   jonsherryl | Feb 03, 2004 06:01pm | #8

   Forestgirl, this isn't a simple question in that the use of mahogany in American furniture making has taken many turns. During the decades following the American Revolution we weren't as involved in trade within the British Empire...but historically speaking, cabinetmakers in both England and her colonies used mostly the mainland species of mahogany; Swietenia macrophylla. While the British held Jamaica and a few other Islands in the West Indies...and therefore had access to some Caribbean mahogany (AKA "cuban" mahogany; Swietenia mahagoni)...their primary source was their colony of Honduras on the mainland of Central America. They referred to the Caribbean species as "Spanish" mahogany and, probably for patriotic reasons, shunned it.

   American cabinetmakers during the colonial period were tied into this British system of trade, but actually used far less genuine mahogany than did English cabinetmakers during the time of Chippendale and later Hepplewhite and Sheraton...Colonial American cabinetmakers opted instead for our cheaper domestic alternatives, such as cherry and walnut for all but very high-end furniture. After the Revolution and as America slowly became a maritime power we were able to source more mahogany from French and Spanish held territories, such as Cuba, Haiti (Hispaniola) and even extreme southern Florida, which we aquired from Spain in 1821.

   As to whether the mainland mahogany available during the 18th and 19th centuries was the same as what is available now...the answer is pretty much: no. While mainland mahogany of the same species (Swietenia macrophylla) is still available, our dwindling modern supply is now coming mostly from the upper Amazon region of Brazil. The mahogany from this equatorial climate tends to be softer and lighter in color than what the British were cutting out of the cooler highlands of Central America. The "Honduras" mahogany of the 19th century was a much nicer cabinetwood.

   By the late 19th century and early 20th century the mahogany trade expanded as the African species (Khaya and Entandrophragma) became available as international commodities. Much of the ribbon grain "mahogany" seen in furniture of this turn-of-the-century Victorian period was actually African sapele (Entandrophragma). The mid 20th century (at least until the immediate post WW II period was probably the heyday of mahogany in terms of global availability. Virtually all of the species in this family were still readily available and reasonably affordable...but during the last 3 to 4 decades virtually all of the true mahogany (Meliaceae) species have been so plundered that they are now fading off the market, one by one...And the sad thing is, mahogany doesn't respond well to plantation management, because when grown in dense, pure species stands, it is exceptionally susceptible to parasites...especially when the plantations are established within the species original native range. 

   Edited 2/3/2004 10:29:19 AM ET by Jon Arno

   Edited 2/3/2004 10:42:32 AM ET by Jon Arno

1. 
   forestgirl | Feb 03, 2004 09:00pm | #9

   Thanks, Jon, that answered all my questions and more.  The info on ribbon mahogany was especially salient, as that wood showed up in much of the furniture I used to preview at auctions and evaluate at estates.forestgirl Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)  you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)

2. 
   bleubassplyr | Feb 04, 2004 12:55am | #10

   Jon,

   Thank you for sharing your knowledge with us. Being a "knot head," I find I learn something new almost every time I log on. Your thread was highly informative and it was very generous of you to take the time to write such an in depth reply. I can envision all the other "knot heads" nodding in agreement with me.Keep away from people who belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great.-Mark Twain

1. 
   forestgirl | Feb 04, 2004 06:12am | #11

   Bleu -- no need to put Knotheads in quotes.  Just capitalize it and hope for the best, each of us should be pround to be a Knothead.  LOL!

   Ain't Jon wonderful!  forestgirl Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)  you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)

2. 
   bleubassplyr | Feb 04, 2004 08:14pm | #12

   LOL. Thanks from one Knothead to another. Wood you care to expand on that? I'm board, well, knot that board. Oh no, look what I've started.  :)))Keep away from people who belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great.-Mark Twain

3. 
   forestgirl | Feb 04, 2004 08:59pm | #13

   ROFL!!  I'll rout for you to stick around, Bleu!forestgirl Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)  you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)

4. 
   bleubassplyr | Feb 04, 2004 10:22pm | #14

   Good one. I think I'll start a wood pun thread. See you there. :)Keep away from people who belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great.-Mark Twain