In case you haven’t seen them yet, the new Lie-Nielsen chisels are finally out. Only (ha!) $250 for the 5 piece set. Add another $25 if you want rosewood handles.
http://www.lie-nielsen.com/tool.html?id=SC-Set&cart=108018509111286868
Jeff
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Replies
I don't get it! I am a big fan of L-N having bought a couple of planes and a saw, but what can they do to chisels to make them worth that kind of price. Except for the A-2 iron ( from which I suppose any manufacturer can make a chisel) what advantages would there be? Blade length and handles become somewhat a personal preference depending upon how one uses the chisels, so choosing among the various offerings for those features seems logical but what can L-N ( or anyone for that matter) do to a chisels to make it such a standout over competitors (as they obviously have done with their planes)?
SAILALEX
I'm sure the LN's are great chisels as Tom posted and I trust Tom's opinion. But, I will echo your exact sentiments that I don't think they are an average $30 better than a good quality chisel ( Ashley Ilse's, Two Cherries, etc. )
If I spent 8 hours a day with a chisel in my hand, I might go there. And that's a might! The only major difference has to be the A-2 steel and I don't personally see that as having to charge that much difference.
Someone might argue they are hand forged by expert craftsmen in a quaint little shop somewhere. So are Ashley Ilse's and they are about $30 cheaper per chisel. Has the price of A-2 jumped radically recently. If not, some of that price tag may be because it has Lie-Nielsen stamped on it. Just my opinion, of course. ha.. ha...
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I know Chris Becksvoort had a prototype set of these chisels and he absolutely loved them. He said they held an edge better than any chisel he has owned. Used a couple of his myself and they are very nice tools. Considering getting a set my self now that they are available to the general public.
Tom
Douglasville, GA
I'm sure they must be nice, but that price point is bound to be adjusted. 50 bucks each? For a bench chisel? I don't think so. To hell with edge retention. Keep a superfine ceramic in the tool well and do quick touch ups on a more reasonably priced chisel.
Edited 3/25/2004 12:30 pm ET by BossCrunk
$50 each dosen't really sound too far out to me I guess. The local lumberyard is selling Two Cherries mortice chisels for $49.95 each. Course, I'm not buying my chisels there for that reason.
Anybody know if the handles are avalible seperately?
Dirt
Mortice chisels and bench chisels are two different animals in two different price ranges. That's cheap for a good mortice chisel actually. IMO mortice chisels can be compared to the Barr's to figure out what a good price for them is.
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
True, I would expect to pay $50+ for a mortise chisel. Secondly, you only need a few of them - your 1/4" chisel getting the most work.
I love L-N tools, but there is NO CHANCE I'm paying $250 for five chisels.
They'd have to be carved with the figure of Beyonce, which is unlikely.
They may have made a very poor pricing decision. If they need $50 per chisel to make a profit, this may be the first flop L-N has ever produced. There are simply too many other good, serviceable brands at $20 less per unit. Touting longer edge retention is ridiculous beyond a certain point as it is not terribly difficult to do touchups as you go.
I'm an L-N customer and fan (we need them), but I won't be buying any of the chisels.
I just went to their site and don't see any chisels. Maybe this is a myth.
Boss,
sure, the likes of you do not need 'designer tools' because you are a master of (basically good) tools. However, there is a large segment of customers for whom owning objects 'associated with names' represets an important part of their identity and/or achievement. It is mostly such customers that drive a particular market.
Metod
I own some L-N tools. I really don't classify them as 'designer' tools at all. They've brought back classic designs and executed them probably better than the originals were executed. I don't dislike L-N. I just think the chisels due to come out, no matter how nice, will be over priced if they are offered at 50 bucks a unit.
I agree with your assessment though. What a quality tool in your hand ought to do is remove any excuse for poor work and put the onus squarely on the craftsman. I'm sure there are plenty of people who bought L-N and wish they hadn't for they no longer had a tool to blame for crappy work.
Mark,
It's not a myth. I received an e-mail from Lie-Nielsen announcing their new chisels:
"LIE-NIELSEN CHISELS
For some time now we have been working on chisels. We've tested steels extensively and have found A-2 tool steel to hold an edge very well. The first chisels we are making are bevel edge socket chisels based on Stanley's popular 750s, which have a very nice feel in the hand.
Our introductory offer is a set of 5 sizes (1/8, 1/4, 3/8, 1/2, and 3/4")with a leather tool roll for $250. plus shipping. Handles are Maine hornbeam; Rosewood is optional for an additional $25.00
Later on, we will make other sizes and begin making mortise chisels. At that point, we will be selling individual sizes as well.
For those of you who have already contacted us about chisels, we will be in touch shortly. It will probably take us some time to get up to production speed, so chisels will be shipped as they become available.
If you are interested in placing an order, please use this link: http://www.lie-nielsen.com/chisel.html.
We will confirm your order and get in touch with you when it is ready to be shipped."
-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
Okay, thanks.
Sarge,
Sure they are different tools, but, why should one be more expensive then the other to make? Looks to me like the LN or old Stanley socket chisel is actually a lot more complicated to make then the Two Cherries mortice chisel. I personally wish they would have copied the Everlast design, but I bet their price would have been much higher then. Have a good evening,Steve
Dirt
I have nothing against LN. They have taken some great designs (as Boss stated) and made them even better. In the case of thier dove-tail saw, they just kept the Independence Saw Co. afloat with a design that couldn't be improved upon much. That saw has been around forever, you just don't have a large market of hand-saws anymore. It would be difficult for a small company to survive without a marketer that is capable of reaching out to a vast audience and seeking the few that would be interested.
I have cut dove-tails with great saws and saws such as the Buck Bros. miter sold at HD with a plastic handle. I can adapt to whatever is put in my hand. But if you put a Independence DT saw in my hand, I ain't gonna turn loose easy. It is that good IMO.
But I won't pay $50 for a bench chisel unless you can do a custom job of boggling my mind that it is worth $30 extra. Since I have not personally seen it, used it or have any feed-back on it; I will consider the jury still out and continue using my already proven chisels. ha.. ha...
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
>>But I won't pay $50 for a bench chisel unless you can do a custom job of boggling my mind that it is worth $30 extra. Since I have not personally seen it, used it or have any feed-back on it; I will consider the jury still out and continue using my already proven chisels. ha.. ha...<<
Well Sarge,
I still don't think that a mortice chisel should be any more expensive then a good socket style bench chisel, due to the amount of work required for both, but I don't suppose that's going to convence you. I'm guessing that the price of the LN will go down, so why not wait? $50 is a bit steep, especially when you can by used 750's for $20 or so each. I bet they are great chisels, but are they worth $50 each? If you think they are, then yep, they are. I have to ask though, why do people buy Bridge City tools? I think its because some of us want the best tools avalible, no matter what, and I think these new chisels are aiming for that market. I'll stick with my old chisels personally, but I don't begruge LN for getting as much as they can out of this product. Have a good one,Steve
Guys, by the same token why would anyone spend 100%- 2000% or more for a custom made US queen size bed when they can buy a bed the same size for a few hundred dollars at a retail outlet? And isn't that what many of us here try to sell?
I haven't seen the chisels under discussion, but on the plane front Holtey planes seem to sell fast enough and they cost a kings ransom, and all they do is plane wood just like any other plane.
I have a suspicion that looked at from a historical perspective tools are cheaper now than they've ever been, even at $50 a chisel. Slainte.RJFurniture
So you're saying that instead of buying one of your custom-made beds, people could just buy a cast-iron bed frame at the junkyard, put one of those space-age material posturepedic mattresses on it, and sleep just as well? Guess you got a point.
I love Lie-Nielsen tools in the same way that I love really nice guitars, and the "Made in the USA" tag doesn't bother a xenophobic knuckle-dragger like me at all, but I would have to put the mental rationalization machinery into serious overdrive to buy those chisels. I would have to talk to my friend Chris, another retired Navy pilot who plays golf everyday and routinely spends big bucks on golf clubs and stuff like that. To him, spending $500 bucks on a "Big Bertha" driver made of titanium, berylium and experimental classified-formula composite material, is no big deal. If I talked to him about HIS passion, maybe I could work up the nerve to buy those chisels.
Or I could look at vehicles - I happen to drive a paid-for Ford F-150 and a paid-for Ford Mustang. There are times when I would LIKE to drive a Lincoln Navigator and a Corvette, whether paid-for or not. I could look at all the money I'm saving by not giving into this motor-vehicle impulse and rationalize buying those chisels.
But I'm not going to. Happy with the Two Cherries. Besides, they're real shiny.
Not really a good analogy. The chisels aren't custom made. If they were maybe they would ask the buyer for hand measurements, handle preferences and stuff like that. All the sets will be the same - just like a manufactured bedroom suite.
It's still only $50 for a chisel though, which doesn't seem much in the whole scheme of things. After all I can spend that without blinking an eye in a few hours watching rugby at the pub what with the entry fee and a few pints. That's only about £30-- literally beer money nowadays.
£10 hardly buys a decent meal in a restaurant which is flushed away down the pan next morning, so what's $25 or $50 for a chisel that'll last years?
As Ed said in his post, he drives around in economical vehicles. If he wanted to and had the money he could drive around in a Rolls Royce. In the end it still only gets you from A-B, but with a bit more ostentation. And his friend spends big money on clubs just to whack a wee ball around bits of sand and patches of grass. I can do that with a stick costing me nothing that fell off a tree. Slainte.RJFurniture
The question is, what are you getting for the extra $$. If it can be identified and quantified, great. But if all you're getting is the nameplate - the way the same pair of jeans costs $35 with one label and $155 with a different label - then that's foolish, no two ways about it. And that is direct from the mountaintop!
I think everyone would agree with that Sgian...but if you could spend $20 for a chisel that will do everything you need, why spend $50.
I do notice that Sarge isn't using the $15 set from the big box, but his current set does everything he needs them to do for half the price. Not a bad deal.
....or if you all really want to ponder a purchase.
How about a set of four from Barr Tools for only $300. (or submit a great tip to FWW and win them as a prize!)
sophie
Now you are obviously a woman with an offer that any "southern gentleman" finds hard to refuse! Is it your personal charm or just the offer of the finest timber-framing mortice chisels made (IMO)??
One of my best tips stems from something I learned in Boy Scouts years ago. If you are forced by necessity to use the bathroom in the woods and don't have toilet paper, leaves will suffice in a bind. And what I learned the hard way was that idenification of various leaves is also a necessity. Poison Ivy is not the best choice of greenery.
But I suppose that you only accept WW tips and with that in mind I will retire to the shop and and ponder some other "southern WW folk-tip" in an attempt to win your favor with the Barr's.
Have a great Monday!! :>)
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
That's my point Derek. Why pay more when paying less will do? You can buy a brand new dining table and chair set for ~$200 if you look around-- I've seen a table and four chairs going new for as little as $100 in Houston. They serve well enough for a time at least even if the design and quality is not of the highest. How many woodworkers, amateur or working, visiting this forum could even buy the wood for an equivalent price let alone make the suite?
This attitude towards furniture purchases is exactly the same attitude some woodworkers here are expressing towards tool purchases, and it's not wrong. Some are willing to shell out big money for what they perceive as good value, and others can't see the point in spending more than what's needed to get by, and there's every attitude in between.
Why would anyone buy a Lamello biscuit jointer for about $600 when a $60 Craftsman will cut perfectly good biscuit slots too? How many people here own a Jet contractors saw? Wouldn't they rather have a Powermatic PM66, or perhaps a top of the line Felder, or even maybe an Altendorf or Martin? Sure they're all different machines with different capabilities, and they're all different prices too. Slainte.RJFurniture
You guys bitch about $50 for a L-N bench chisel yet drool over the Japanese chisels at Japanwoodworker.com for upwards of $200 ea (averaging about $50, hmm...)__________________________________________________________
Michael in San Jose
Freedom from mental disturbance is the very most for which one can hope.
Epicurus (341-270 BCE)
I don't see the big deal about $50 chisels. If you think it's too much, don't buy it; one thing is for sure, cryo treated blades really are superb, and I'm sure this adds to the cost (they are cryo treated, aren't they???). Heck, you can make a good chisel from an old file if you want to.
Woodworking is about skill and talent, but top quality tools never hurt.
IMHO,
dale
I am in the gun business and I see this same thing. You hear guys talking about how "accurate" their NIB (new in box so it keeps its "collector" value) super duper rifle is compared to the one your at the range actually shooting...Same guys will can't hit the broad side of a barn with anything.
Another varient is the "newest is best" syndrome. These guys have to have the newest toys before everyone else. Whatever is new is better.
My favorite is the ones who love a certain German brand that is overcomplicated, overdesigned, and overly delicate. I swear they will sit there and tell you there toy is better than yours ( the one that works no matter what) and yet, there is only one brand of ammo they will shoot cause their "better" toy doesn't work well with anything else!
We have a name for the toys that feed this "#### extenders", it applies equally to cars and all sorts of other toys.
I like good steel, and I think Lee Valley makes a nice product, but my plastic handled Record chisels work better than I do...
Michael
Michael,
I basically agree with you, adequate is adequate. Virtually all my tools (costly or otherwise) are better than I am.
You hit upon my other costly disease!! But it's with high quality shotguns, primarily for sporting clays. However, I'll be the first to tell you that they don't make me a better shooter, I own them because I like them.
P.S. Most things German are overly complicated, but they don't compare to a Cosmi!
Dale
michaelp
I think what some are precieving as bit*ching is simply stating they don't see enough "extra" in the chisel to warrant the extra $30. "Where's the Beef"?
I for one don't drool over Japanese chisels or anything else Japanese. They are fine chisels. So are a lot of other Japanese products, but I don't buy a Japanese brand unless it was made by a Japanese firm that has maufacturing facilities located in the U.S. and was manufactured by U.S. employees. I do support jobs for Americans.
That is based on a personal conviction against the Japanese goverment that has nothing to do with chisels. The chisels are fine, but I cut my teeth on English paring chisels and "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". ha.. ha...
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Sarge
The bit*hing part was tongue in cheek.
I have lot of L-N tools, five planes and two saws. I also have a set of very nice Sorby bench chisels that I got for $25 apiece. It will take a lot of sharpenings before I am ready to buy the L-N chisels.
I also have two Japanese chisels that I spent $40 apiece on. I give them to anyone who'll pay the freight collect. I drooled over them in the catalog until I bought them and found out how easy they are to chip.__________________________________________________________
Michael in San Jose
Freedom from mental disturbance is the very most for which one can hope.
Epicurus (341-270 BCE)
michaelp
Thanks for the calarification. Seems I've been spending a lot of post here clarifying. ha.. ha...
I think we the nay-sayers are just saying we don't think the price is justified from what we know at this point. I will attempt to clarify our position for those that have not followed the post. ( And it has been somewhat interesting, entertaining and infomative)
I compare Hock A-2 irons and their HSS irons. Not that large of an increase. My Rc-62 steel on my Ashley Ilse's holds a good edge. I can strop it in short order and refresh it. I can hone it in not much longer and it's even better. I can re-grind and take it up in grit after the initial flattening with a re-hone in about 20 minutes max with a cup of coffee thrown in.
As far as I know, I can do everything with these or a set of antique Marples that I can with a LN chisel. For that matter I have a old set of Craftsman chisels from the 60's. I will add that to the list of what I feel can be accomplished in my hands just as well as a $50 chisel.
The most expensive chisel I have cost about $20 apeice. Dale mentioned a good quality tool. I personally feel I have a great quality tool already in the Ashley Ilse's. They will do everything I am aware of that a chisel was designed to do with a little guidance from my hands.
If LN wants $50 for their chisel, I would like to know why so much? What will it do or not do that warrants the extra dollars? What have I gained by it's purchase? How will it benefit me? Where's the "Beef"?
Until I am en-lightened, I will continue to buy the excellent quality of some the less expensive competitors. I will take the remaining $30 saving and buy a Jorgy Cabinet-Master clamp. I use them almost every day and can justify the extra price with their added benefits.
So, my question would be to all that feel that LN justifies the large price tag... WHY?? I am not a LN basher. I just got an Indpendence DT saw in the mail yesterday. If I didn't feel the extra was justified, I wouldn't have bought it. I gaurantee that it's the finest DT saw I have ever held. I paid the extra cause I know.
I don't see the justification in the chisels at this point. If anyone can convince me that they are worth the extra, I will order two Monday morning. I need two chisels of good quality to make a couple of skew chisels. Is the LN the logical choice, or will the Ashley Ilse's or the Cherries suffice for this purpose and throw in two Jorgy Cabinet-Masters?? ha.. ha...
Have a good evening Michael...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
So, my question would be to all that feel that LN justifies the large price tag... WHY??
Sarge... I doubt if this will be THE answer you're looking for, but I have an angle on it that just might help. Simply put.. Peace of Mind.... I'll try to explain. In learning about hand planes, I've learned the hard way about the differences between good, bad and absolute lemons... if I could redeem the cost of the bad or worse, I could buy the L-N chisels easily; as it is, I'm stuck with them. With regard to chisles, I'm at the same stage with them now as I was with hand planes 18 months ago, i.e. clued enough to know there's a LOT of choice out there, some good... some bad... some lemons... what I don't know is where I'm gonna get stung. I've been reading reviews and opinions re good / bad chisels long enough to have figured out that there IS no optimum manufacturer; ya pays yer money, ya takes yer choice. Now, messed up though it may sound, I figure that for ME.... it's far safer and cheaper in the long run to put my hard earned into a product that I KNOW I can count on... from experience with their planes, I KNOW that L-N can deliver what I'm looking for, namely, a product of high enough quality to assure me that if something's not going right, I KNOW it's not the fault of the tool. That alone is priceless when trying to develop and improve technique....
jus my tuppence worth..
;)Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Mike
I see your point and that sounds like good logic for your particular case. As I said, we all draw our lines as too where we stand on an issue.
I've already stated several times on where I staked a claim on my line, so I will let the rest of you give your thoughts at this point. I could change my mind if the evidence appears that would warrant it, but at this point I remain firm as to my original conclusion.
Regards...
sarge.jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Dirt
I also don't begrudge LN for their asking price. They can ask $1000 apeice if they wish. As my grand-pa said, "There's a *ss for every seat, you just gotta find the one that fits it". There will be those that won't even bat and eye at the price. They've got the money, they want it and the checks in the mail.
All I'm saying is that I don't feel that the extra $30 is warranted from my personal stand-point. I cannot warrant the difference in price with my personal logic.
As to the morticing chisel, do I personally feel it should cost more than the bench chisel? A good one does use quite a bit more steel as it is longer and the blade should be much thicker than the bench. But I also feel that the price should be in the $30 to $40 dollar range.
Will I pay $50 for a good mortice chisel? Even though I feel it is slightly over-priced, what choice do I have? The majority of mortice chisels are marketed in the $40 to $60 range. As I don't set market price, I have no choice if I want one in lieu of making my own or searching for used. And that's not a pliable choice in either case for me personally.
Bottom line: When I make a statement it's just my personal view and I'm not trying to convince anyone that my thoughs should be your thoughts. The statement is just there to read and review. I would hope that everyone would just look at all the info presented and make their own decisions based on what is logical for them personally. ha.. ha...
Regards...
sarge..jt Proud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Paying $50 per chisel?
Sarge, You may not but flicking through a Japan Woodworker catalogue it seems lots of folks are prepared to pay big $$ for Japanese chisels — like $200 for a "master class" DT chisel !
Furniture and Cabinetmaking (the UK mag) did a review of chisels last year. One of their bug bears was most well finished good edge holding chisels had rounded edges (from the final polishing process) and whilst the back of the chisel was flat and the cutting edge could be quickly honed to perfection, it took an inordinate amount of time to get truely square edges on the tool – important for getting right into corners.
I don't expect to see a LN chisel locally for another year or so, but if the LNs are polished, "ready to go" and truely square at the edge, then they could easily be worth $50 each, even to professional makers. Time is money, if a cabinet maker is paying himself $30 per hour, his chargeout rate could easily be between $100 and $150 per hour. (these are the sort of multipliers used locally by engineers and accountants). So to save 20 mins squaring the edge of a new chisel can easily be worth paying $30 extra for the chisel, let alone the time require to recondition an eBay or flea market buy. By the same token, time spent sharpening is time that must be paid for from within the multiplier, so an edge that lasts longer potentially translates into either a better profit margin, more time with the kids, or a more competitive price because more of your working day is spent on revenue earning tasks, rather than tool maintenance.
Ian
ian
Read my last post to Dirt. I do believe that there may be a mis-understanding of the point I was making. It is nothing more than a point of my personal logic and needs. It was not a case of Mose's went to the mountain and brought down the "written word" carved in stone.
I am very aware that there are those that will pay the $50 a pop. As Ed, I have a freind that flys for Delta Airlines. If the chisel was priced at $1000, he wouldn't even blink if he wanted it and would write you a check with a few bucks added for a tip.
I am not a professional, just an amuteur that has to justify quality with price and find "middle ground". All I am stating is I cannot personally justify the extra $30 when I have excellent quality chisels available for $20 give or take. There are some that can and will and you won't hear a peep from me if you buy them. That's a personal decision based on your resources and needs.
I had to become head of house-hold at 13 years old. Would I have liked to buy top brands at the grocery store? Yep! But circumstances dictated otherwise and I had to use logic to get the best I could with what resources I had available. And nobody starved. I still use common sense even though I can at the point of life afford to not be so price concious.
Regards...
sarge..jt
Proud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Edited 3/26/2004 11:35 am ET by SARGE
Sarge
maybe I should have addressed my post to ALL rather than you. My intent was to add to the discussion not to disparage your values. If I've done the latter please accept my appologies.
The point I was trying to make is that the value of any tool is in the eye of the person receiving the product. That person is not necessarily the same as he (or she) who writes the cheque ! I think we are in agreement on this.
Ian
Ian
You have absoulutely nothing to apologize about. I think this has been one of the better exchanges of how people derive at their decision making process and an inside of their personal values. It has been a rather interesting discussion so far and I have enjoyed it.
Everyone has been civilized and courteous and thrown their opinions out for public view. I think that some good points have been made and it might stimulate everyone into giving a little careful thought before they write the check based on brand and past performance.
The bottom line could well be "not what you have done for me in the past, but what can you do for me in the present tense"? Or perhaps someone will come along here and alter that bottom line to something even more meaningful. I think that opportunity is knocking in this thread, curious to see if someone is capable of opening the door!
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Hi all,
I just bought my first L-N plane (large shoulder). I had a Lee Valley (which I sent back), because, for whatever reason, I had bad luck trying to get one with both sides absolutely square to the sole. Also, the way they designed??? the casting to support the lever cap bothered me (probably just a personal problem).
I'm not sure the L-N is a better design, but, at least in my case, it seems to have had better construction. It was also fun to buy a plane, that, with a little honing of the blade was ready to go.
With respect to their chisels, other than their choice of steel, it is hard to imagine some type of design innovation that could justify the price (at least for me).
With respect to their manufacture, I would pay some extra for a chisel with a perfectly flat back, square corners and which was well-sharpened and ready to go after a little stropping (but not more than double the price of other good chisels).
Because of L-N's seemingly universally recognized quality, they are in a position to charge a premium for their product. They will sell chisels, even a 50 bucks a pop. But, for other first time L-N buyers, like myself, I am afraid they run the risk of selling chisels to someone who will be deciding whether L-N price premiums are really justified based on their chisel's performance. It seems to me that L-N could lose some potential customers if they charge premium prices for products that work more or less the same as competitor's products costing 1/2 or even 1/10 their price.
Of course, I own plastic handled Marples, so, what do I know. I'm not even in a rush to upgrade those (although some mortise chisels would be nice).
Matt
I work wood professionally with plastic handled Marples chisels. They work fine.
Working fine is a relative term. I have a set of marples chisels and they don't hold an edge worth a damn. Iv'e used the lie-nielsen and the marples side by side and you will cut a whole lot more dovetails with the LN over the course of a day. Had to sharpen the marples a few times and the LN not once and they saw more action. I amazed at how many opinions are out there about these chisels when no one has seen them in person. The one person (Becksvoort) I know that owns a set loves them and absolutely raved about them. I didn't perceive him for one that would spend excessive amounts of money on tools unless there was a value there. I do know that when time is money, choppin beats sharpening anytime. By the way my sorbys don't hold an edge nearly as well either. There will likely be a set of these in my future.Tom
Douglasville, GA
All,
I have a set of Robert Sorby Octagonal handle bench chisels..
Just for reference, here are the prices from Woodcrafts web site (just for reference)..
1/8 inch 47.99
1/4 inch 38.99
3/8 inch 39.99
1/2 inch 40.99
3/4 inch 41.99
That's a total of 209.95 for just the chisels, figure $25 for the leather tool roll and Woodcraft would charge 11.99 for ground shipping on these items.. and price difference between the Sorby's and the L-N is about $5..
Having owned the Sorby's, I would definitely pay the $5 difference for the L-N chisels..
BOBABEUI
I have Sorby's I bought over 20 years ago. I have used Sorby's from the present. It ain't the same chisel steel anymore from the way the edge folds I'm guessing. I think the Sorby's are also over-priced.
My question is if you would gladly pay $5 more for the LN chisel, would you gladly pay $30 less for an Ashley Ilse's or Two Cherries which is much better quality than the current Sorby's IMO. My old Sorby's are about par with them, but the new ones have a lesser grade steel from my experience with their current mortice chisels. They won't hesitate to fold an edge. I have some Crown mortrice chisels that cost about $14 per chisel less that are of better quality from having used both.
Out of curiousity, what do you find about the Sorby's you have that you don't like. Just trying to confirm my suspicions.
Regards...
sarge..jt Proud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Hi Sarge,
The Sorby Octagonal's were a gift from my wife to me for Christmas about 5 years ago.. The feel of the chisel are very nice, but as you have confirmed the steel is not all it's cracked up to be, they fold over very easily. The 5 year old Sorby's used to be be checked on a Rockwell hardness tester, since the steel has the tell tail dimple on the back, the newer chisels don't seem to have the mark...
If I had to do it all over again I might be inclined to buy the Asley Ilse's or the Two Cherries.. I was just pointing out that there are other premium priced chisels (priced not performance) that cost every bit as much as the L-N's.. Although I am not as familar with Japanese chisels, I am sure that there are many Japanese chisels that cost every bit as much as the L-N's also..
I've decided that the way to resolve this issue once and for all is for everyone to contribute to a fund and buy me a set of the L-Ns. I would then promise to test them and let everyone know if they're really worth the money. Send your check to 1810 Chapel Avenue West, Suite 300, Cherry Hill, NJ 08002. Thanks!
Mark
Checks in the mail! ha.. ha...
Let me know if you find something other than the A-2 steel which will definitely hold a longer edge. I'd be willing to add $15 for that and not much more. I still gotta justify the other $15. If I can, as I stated I will buy two to make skew chisels out of even though longer edge retention is not a major plus for me with a skew chisel.
When I pick up a chisel the first thing that grabs me is the feel. I don't care how much a chisel cost. I would rather have a low grade chisel that balances in my hand than a high grade that doesn't. Just my personal preference. Sharpening time is not a major issue with me either. I substitute meditation with shrarpening. Same results from the mental side, I just end up with shrap tools to boot. ha.. ha...
Regards...
sarge..jt Proud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Sarge,
I don't have a lot of experience with various brands of chisels, steel type, etc., but I picked up a set of Nooitgedagt chisels on ebay for $24.95 ( set of 8 ) a couple of years ago.
All forgive me for voting for a cheaper set of chisels but these get really sharp and seem to stay that way a long time, blows my 10 yr old set of marples away.
CH
Nooitgedangt are (were) a very good product, but I believe they've gone out of business. I picked up a couple of their planes on ebay and really like them. Last I checked, Sell2All still had a few of those, but they were quite small. Haven't seen any of the chisels for quite some time, but I do remember being tempted to get a set. For once in my life I wish I had given into temptation!
Jeff
nooitgedagt = american toolcompany
= record=marples etc?
Here in The Netherlands the brand name Nooitgedagt is still around. They have chisels and woodcarving tools and some measuring and marking tools. As far as I know it's a Dutch company. I bought one chisel recently, I just checked and the iron is marked Made in Holland. It's certainly good quality and they are not cheap either. I think I paid the equivalent of $30 - $35.
I have several of these chisels and I like how they feel. They have good balance in my hands and did not cost a fortune. I'll skip the LN chisels as I doubt I'll be able to appreciate their superior design and metallurgy.
I've a set of 3 Nooitgedagt benchchisels 25 years old and some new. The difference: The old ones have a smaller handle for the smaller 4mm, the new 4mm has the same big handle as the 25 mm.
The iron quality is hard to judge, because my sharpening technique is much better now. The oldies feel better in the hand.
One thing is remarkable: The oldies don't rust when the air is moisture, the new does.
And why is it impossible to make good balanced tools in the computerized factories. Making profit by making all the handles the same .........
Rob Lee of LV/Veritas once wrote that Nooitgedagt is producing for others too; all that belong to America Toolcompany.
kees
I'am curious about that $5000 plus japanese set fo chisels on Chris' web site. Does he have and use a set of those. They have to practically cut by themselves and never need sharpening.
new toy for an arabian prince
kees
chobbs66
Nothing to forgive IMO for using any chisel. If it's working for you the battle has been won. I have old Craftsman, Marples, Sorby and Ashley Ilse's in that order. They all work for me form the bottom to top. Once they are initially flattened and honed, it only takes a few minutes of touch-up to keep them there.
I will gladly use a set of LN's if they feel good in my hand. I just am not going to spend $50 without knowing why? They are much more expensive and what I have already at a much more modest price are "getting the job done" admirably.
I suppose we all draw our lines in the sand at different places. Mine has been drawn and I'm not upping the ante till someone can show me why I should! ha.. ha....
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
No way, Jose!!!
I started this thread, and if anybody gets free tools out of the deal......er, let me rephrase that...... if anybody is going to test them for our forum readers, it's going to be me.
Jeff
Picky, picky, picky.
BOBABEUI
Thanks BOB for the info. I just was wondering if I had been the only one that had come to the conclusion on the Sorby steel. Yep, IMO the Sorby's are now a bit low on quality and a bit high on price. I bought a newer S mortice chisel. It didn't preform to the expectations that the old Sorby's do.
I tried a Crown who doesn't decieve with the lower price and found it to preform better. I have 3 Crowns now. I would love the Barr's, but even though the quality is most definitely there, the budget and amount of production doesn't justify jumping to that league.
Again thanks...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I use bench chisels for paring and chopping dovetails. Edge retention is not an issue for me since I give them a swipe or two across the ceramic stones before I get started. If I know that I'll be dovetailing a set of drawers I lay out the chisels I need and give them a little more attention in the morning. Occassionally, they will need some touch up during a marathon dovetailing session. This doesn't bother me, it gives me a chance to look up for a moment, pop my back and perhaps take a few steps away from the bench.
I always hear people talk about 'lack of edge retention' but I've never been sure exactly what that meant. Do you expect not to do touch ups for days on end? Freehanded touch ups take me less than two minutes. It's simply not a bother.
I like the way the Marples feel in my hand, believe it or not. That means more to me than fewer honings over a given period of time.
I wouldn't be surprised to know that Becksvoort received a complimentary set.
From what I understood Becksvoort was given a set so LN could get feedback from serious use prior to putting the chisels on the market. This was well over a year ago and I know he was quite impressed with them. Tom
Douglasville, GA
I've no doubt that everything else being equal the new L-N chisels will have a 'mean time between honings' greater than a Marples Blue Chip. However, the problem is that honing a chisel is so damned easy (just not a lot of steel to remove, you know?) it's a non-issue with me. Obviously opinions will differ.
Edited 3/29/2004 2:49 pm ET by BossCrunk
Thought Becksvoort promoted Barr chisels?
Have we read an official statement of Becksvoort?
But one day you have to sharpen your chisel............
kees
No mention of it on his website Kees,
http://www.chbecksvoort.com/
Cheers,
eddie
eddie,
here's a quote from Barr-advertisement in fww:
"these chisels are a treat to look at, a pleasure to hold, but using them is the ultimate woodworking experience". :-)
Signed: Chris Becksvoort
regards,
kees
Chris probably uses Barr chisels as well. I know he was using the LN the whole time I was in a seminar with him. Surely you don't beleive Tiger Woods only drives buicks. My guess is that LN figured a guy like Becksvoort would really put their chisels through the paces with the type of work he does and he's fairly local to them. From what I know of the man I certainly trust his opinion.Tom
Douglasville, GA
From what I understand, Chris Becksvroot is a good woodworker. Having said that, I am a little more skeptical with each passing year about claims by famous people. I read the article in Fine Woodworking a couple years ago about Tried and True Varnish Oil. So I got a can and used it on a couple of projects I was working on at the time. What a joke! I went back to my tried and true, a homemade Maloof type finish. Alan & Lynette Mikkelsen, Mountain View Farm, est. 1934, Gardens & Fine Woodworking, St. Ignatius, MT
In the final analysis, how many sets of paring chisels does one really need to own?
I didn't know there was a limit. I suppose I could use my craftsman chisels for everything and hone them constantly. I don't buy tools just to buy them. I never buy a tool unless my woodworking has paid for it and feel I can justify the cost. I happen to enjoy using fine tools and don't mind spending hard earned money on well made tools. I use snap on and mac tools where many would say craftsman would suffice. I prefer the higher quality tool. Fortunately there are people out there that will pay a premium for fine furniture so I can enjoy my tools.
Tom
Douglasville, GA
I've never advocated owning an utterly inferior tool so poorly made as to be essentially unusable. That said, there are many people who would dismiss some of the tools I own as unusable without further consideration. I don't have a response to that mindset.
I don't really notice edge retention as I keep an extra fine ceramic stone on the bench and do touch ups more or less when instinct tells me to (to be honest almost mindlessly). I've never found this routine to be bothersome enough to go to the marketplace in a serious search for a chisel with greater edge retention, although surely they do exist. As I believe I mentioned in my other post, I actually like the feel of the Marples handle, plastic and all. All-in-all, I'm getting what I need in a chisel from the set that I currently own. They cost well less than $50 each.
I own other L-N tools and am glad to have them.
Obviously, you're free to own as many chisels as you care to buy.
Happily I've not been victim, too many times at least, of buying two or three iterations of a tool before I settled on something workable.
Edited 3/31/2004 8:37 pm ET by BossCrunk
Would you guys consider the Hirsch Firmer Chisles available at Lee Valley comparable to the Two Cherries or Ashley Isles? I am still using cheap Buck Brothers (which I have to touch up constantly) and have been searching for a good set of chisels.
My thanks go out to Sarge and Bobabeuifor stearing me away from the $219 Sorby Mortice Chisels. What would be another good alternative in that catagory?Jim
Coventry Woodworking
Jim
On the mortice chisel thing, it depends on how much you use them IMO. I bought a Crown for Highland Hardware to see if it was worth the mid-twenties price range. I found it was compared to the Sorby's. It's as good and in my opinion better. Is it a top of the line? NO!!
If you do this for a living and want an investment in a mortice chisel, I would consider Barr. But they are in the $75 plus price range. The cabinet-makers set is around $300 (set of four) I believe. I love to timber-frame and if I did it a lot, I would definitely get the larger Barr's (1" and up) for around $99 a piece.
You might consider trying the Crown registered with the purchase of one and if you're not satisfied, seek elsewhere. Someone might advise you with the Japanese morticers as I don't have any and really don't care for them personally. You might see them from a different prespective than I do.
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Thanks for the feedback. I currently do remodeling/custom built-ins but I want to eventually build reproduction Queen Anne, Chippendale, Sheraton, etc. So to answer your question, yes, eventually I plan to be using these everyday to make a living. I guess I would rather spend the big money now than wait and pay twice.
Thankyou for the warning about the Sorby's. I realy would have been kicking myself if I had paid $200 and then didn't like them.Jim
Coventry Woodworking
Jim
Unfortunately there's not a lot of companies making the mortice chisels with the Bench Morticer, router accessory phenemonom. One I did over-look was the set from Hirsch. I have never used them but I do have a set of Hirsch mortice chisels for my ShopFox BT. They are excellent.
They are in the basic same price range as the Sorby, maybe a bit higher. I think the Two Cherries are from the Hirsch stable, even though I could be wrong there. And again I have not used the Hirsch, but have seen and handled them at Highland Hardware. Look to be nicely built and have a good feel, just don't have a clue as to the quality of steel.
Good luck...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
The Hirsch chisels roll off the same line as 2 cherries. same steel, different handles and finish.
I have the hirsch. they are quite good considering the nominal price.
a couple notes regarding them - I've heard the sides are not parallel....they taper in up at the handle (not much, but enough so that you can't use the side to register squareness when sharpening with a honing jig). Be prepared for a decent length sharpening session to lap the backs if you purchase the set.
the come lacquered. highly recommend you remove the lacquer with appropriate thinner prior to honing.
they take an edge well and I've not had issues with edge retention for use in oak, walnut, jatoba, bubinga, mahogany (the real stuff)....poplar and amapola too but those are so soft....nearly any chisel seems good enough.
I use my hirsch for paring and light chopping - dovetailing.Tim
Tim
I thank you for the take on Hirsch. I thought that the Two Cherries was thier spin-off. Do you have the standard bench chisels or their mortices? I was considering purchasing a mortice chisel from them just to see for myself. I am in need of a new 1/2" so I just might.
Regards...
sarge..jt Proud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I have their bench chisels.
I would gather the steel is probably the same for their mortise chisels.....and IME from their bench, the steel Hirsch/2 cherries uses is excellent.Tim
Tim
Thanks. I'm on the way to Highland Hardware after the race (ha--ha) to try one.
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Take my opinion for what it's worth... I admit to a sneaking desire for my tools to both work well and LOOK well. That being the case, IMO nothing beats the Ashley Isles chisels. I just don't care as much for the looks of the LN ones. The AI chisels sold by Joel M at Tools for Working Wood make me drool. Is it just me?
Davy
The Ashley Ilse's are nice looking, but with me that is secondary. The way they fit in my hand and the balance once they're their is what gives me the wake-up call. The fact that they are less than $20 apiece didn't escape my attention either. I got em and they're definitely keepers.
IMO, their beauty is more than skin deep!
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Thanks for the Two Cherries/Hirsch info. I will have to hold both and see which feels better. I'm glad I am able to check purchases here before I commit. The one thing I hate is purchasing something just to be disapointed. Plus, I hate shopping so much that half the time I never get back to return it and get my money back, so it just sits there collecting dust (ie. Delta Morticing Attachment, used once).
Anyway, thankyou to everyone that posts here regularly informing us less knowledgable tool/wood aholics.Jim
Coventry Woodworking
Sarge,
Actually, the chisels are $5.95 each...its the leather case...that's where all the cost is..... Can you imagine walking into your shop with your Nielsen's strapped on....hung low off your hip and tied down to the thigh...everytime you draw your blade it gets a mini hone....wheh! good stuff...
Who'd be affraid of a man wearing Ashley's.....lol
BG
Who'd be afraid of a man wearing Ashley's slung low on their hip" ?
A man wearing Marples!
Maybe I'll just get me one of those $50 chisels for back-up in case the Ashley's go down. I could hide it in my sock if I wore them. Yep, we're not making much common sense, but we're having a h*ll of a good time!
ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
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