I’m needing a wider jointer (currently only have a 6 inch). I want to get one at least 12″ wide and preferably 16″ as I use a lot of quarter sawn lumber which is more stable in the wider widths but I’ld also like the flexibility to clean up glued panels quickly.
My question is can anyone give me a comparison of their experience with say a felder, knapp, or mini max jointer/planer combo compared with a large american brand jointer such as grizzly, northfield, general,etc?
The combo could be useful as I would like a better planer over my 13″ delta, but don’t really need to replace.
Replies
I've got a 12" Northfield HD jointer. Don't make the mistake of comparing Grizzly (made in Taiwann, not US), General, Powermatic, etc.... There's absolutely no comparison. An industrial quality machine like Northfield, Porter, Oliver (the OLD Oliver stuff, not the new pacific rim stuff, thanks SARGE) , etc... will outwork and outperform any of the other machines mentioned. Mine is a 3hp, 3 phase, direct drive motor with 4 knife cutterhead. I can flatten a 12" wide board, and remove enough material usually in one heavy pass, sometimes 2 passes, depending on the quality of the stock. I can edge joint 1/2" off in one pass. Don't try that with one of those other machines you mentioned.
I recently saw a 16" HD (heavy duty) Northfield for sale on ebay, and another on woodweb.com. You should check it out. You won't be sorry.
Jeff
Edited 2/13/2008 12:55 am ET by JeffHeath
Most of us regular guys can't afford a Northfield. I'm looking seriously at the Grizzly 12" with the indexable spiral head. I'd love to hear any feedback.
Regards, Sean
"Most of us regular guys can't afford a Northfield."
Sean,
I'm about as regular as it gets. What's a 12" Grizz with a spiral head cost. I've seen a number of non-dealer, "for sale by owner" heavy duty jointers and planers for sale for under $2K. For sure, the dealers are going to buy them, go through them, re-paint them, and try to sell them for $4K to $5K. However, with a little searching, you'll fine these beasts for sale all over the country for less than that Grizz will cost, and they will outperform by a large margin. There was a thread here just about a month ago from a guy who bought 4 tools from a closed warehouse for $500.00. Included was a 12" jointer, and a heavy duty shaper. Seek, and yee shall find.
I work hard for my money, and I try to spend it as wisely as I can. Performance in a jointer really comes into play when I have 200 to 300 bf of rough sawn lumber to mill for a job. The hours saved is money spent. And, the seasoned castings on old iron aren't going to move around and create setup issues like the new stuff from Taiwann can.
Just my opinion. It's free, so you get what you pay for.
Jeff
Edited 2/11/2008 11:24 am ET by JeffHeath
"Sean,
I'm about as regular as it gets. What's a 12" Grizz with a spiral head cost. I've seen a number of non-dealer, "for sale by owner" heavy duty jointers and planers for sale for under $2K. For sure, the dealers are going to buy them, go through them, re-paint them, and try to sell them for $4K to $5K. However, with a little searching, you'll fine these beasts for sale all over the country for less than that Grizz will cost, and they will outperform by a large margin. There was a thread here just about a month ago from a guy who bought 4 tools from a closed warehouse for $500.00. Included was a 12" jointer, and a heavy duty shaper. Seek, and yee shall find....
1) 12" with spiral is about 2300.
2) Please explain how these others will outperform by a large margin?
3) I too looked around for good deals on old stuff and found a few possibilities, but in the end, decided on going the griz route for new equipment with warantee and all my other purchases have bee great.
4) Not saying that those tools are great, but in-the-end my grizz does what it's supposed to and is that not what you expect of a tool. I know there has been a lot of rap against those tools and I been told I'm just lucky, but I've been lucky I guess on every purchase. Maybe I should go buy a lotto ticket?
Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
bones
Let me clarify. I'm not knocking Grizzly, even though it may sound that way. Actually, I admire the company quite a bit, as they have come a long way. They have identified their target market, which is hobbyist woodworkers (I know some pro shops have their stuff, too, but if a true analysis was taken, I'd bet 80% of their machines go to hobbyists), and they market their product without the middleman involved (Woodcraft, Rockler, etc.....). They have their own shipping all set up, and it's one stop shopping. Good for them.
My point was not directed towards Grizzly. It was directed at all of the tools that are in this category. I've been a knothead for a pretty long time now, probably 9 or 10 years ( I don't remember when I first came here.) As long as I've been participating, ever few months there's another thread started by another frustrated hobbyist who's castings aren't flat, or the gib screws are torqued, or the adjuster won't work, or there's 10" of snipe.......on and on and on....
My point simply is, there are better choices available, and you don't have to spend a small fortune getting them. My jointer, for example, was built in 1957. I have the entire history, including service, on the tool. Northfield keeps outstanding records of their tools, when they are resold, and to whom. Just for re-registering my tool with them, they sent me new stickers for the machine. Free. Anytime I need to buy a part for it (which has been NEVER) they would attach the record to the tool file, by serial #. In 50 years of service in a heavy use environment (large furniture shop before me) the tool has only needed new safety guards, twice. That's it.
As far as performance goes, this is what I mean. First, my tool weighs about 1900 lbs. I can drop a 10/4 slab of cherry 10 feet long on the infeed table, and nothing moves. Do that to a powermatic, delta, etc.... and you'll be resetting the tool up, if you don't crack the casting off or flip it. My previous jointer was a Powermatic. If I tried to remove more than 1/16" when flattening a wide board, it would scream in full protest. With the Northfield, I can take 1/8" on a 12" wide piece of hard maple in one pass. I edge joint 1/2" off 8/4 stock in one pass. Do you know how much time this saves when you've got 40 boards of stock to mill up?
The tools that I have had the opportunity to work with in my shop are the Northfield jointer, a 1939 Oliver 270 table saw, a 1930's Tannewitz 36" bandsaw (resaw of 21"), a 1952 Oliver 232 table saw (their 'small' version, hah!) , 2 planers (Oliver 299 and Oliver 399) 24" and 18". With a little patience, every single one of these tools can be found for under $2000, except maybe for the Oliver 299.
Once you've had a chance to use one of these, it's hard to go back to using Jet, Powermatic, Grizzly, etc..... I know, because I'm doing it now, and can't wait to reacquire some new "oldies" now that my new shop is finished.
Jeff
I understand that the old equipment can be a good option. But they are not all guaranteed to ge good. You could wind up with bearings almost shot or other issues or you might have to buy a phase converter that can add cost. They can be repaired and made whole again, but its not a panacea either. That's why I say they are an option to be evaluated. I did just that. I found an old three legged 12" jointer on E'bay that was tempting, put I decided to go the grizzly route. Mine joints and removes what ever I've attempted without even a hint of grunting. Now I will say I have not tried to remove 1/2" at one time, but I can't think of a time when I would want to hog off that much wood. I have taken an 1/8" with no problems not even a grunt. I set it up to do all my cherry for my current project. I had boards that were almost as wide as my jointer and some 7'+ long. Long enough to require a support roller. They passed through flawlessly and quickly. Flipped them up against the fence that took me and my son to set up on the jointer(it's heavy) and I quickly had two perpendicular flat faces ready for the planer and finished with the TS. I may be just overwhelmed by the difference from that 6" delta and the 12" grizzly. it's a beast that won't budge. I took my first gamble on Taiwanese with the 1023 TS, and it's still humming no adjustments at all. Second was the 17" bandsaw. Again no issues other than throwing away the stock blade (which I would do anyway), and replaced with the Timberwolfe. Next, was the horizontal boring machine with no problems. See a trend here. All I can speak from is experience of purchases and all the Grizzly stuff I've got and seen in commercial shops (20" planer & big drum sander & jointers), and they are work horses. When my 12" makita planer dies (if ever), I'm sure I will look at the Grizzly 20". I will also look for an old powermatic green machine as well as options, but I will evaluate them evenly and make the call. If it's an old machine reliable and cost is significantly better that Grizzly, I will get it. I'm just not willing to say its always a better choice. Take care man.
Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
I'm delighted that you're happy with your tool purchases. Everyone should be. Unfortunately, many are not.
I just like to mention another option when this topic comes up.
The simplest analogy I can think of is this: If you drive a $500.00 car, then a new Chevy is nice. If you switch to a Cadillac, the Chevy isn't so nice anymore. If you then get a Porsche 911 Cabriolet, you aren't gonna want that Cadillac ever again.
Which type of tools land where in that analogy is completely up to the user.
Jeff
"The simplest analogy I can think of is this: If you drive a $500.00 car, then a new Chevy is nice. If you switch to a Cadillac, the Chevy isn't so nice anymore. If you then get a Porsche 911 Cabriolet, you aren't gonna want that Cadillac ever again.
Which type of tools land where in that analogy is completely up to the user.
Jeff"
Ok, I'll turn that analogy back to you. I drive a Chevy so I get where I need to go, and don't have to make the car payment on a Porsche or a Cadillac. I have so much money left over that I can buy many tools!
Anyway, you can call it blind luck if you want, we can just continue to disagree.
Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Edited 2/11/2008 7:58 pm by bones
I’m with you on this one. When I have wide stock to flatten I go to my buddies shop with the 16” <!----><!----><!---->Northfield<!----><!----> pattern makers jointer, (with the tilting infeed table, just to cool). I have used some of the new large equipment and it just does not even come close to the solid feel of the old iron.
There are Oliver's for sale if you wait long enough. I picked a 166 up in 2003 for $1675. It was owned for 49 years by the same owner.
Jeff, I agree with you on the vintage machines. My current shop is less than half of the previous but my 16" Sidney short bed (66") jointer from the 1930's is an absolute gem. Perfect for any size shop. I paid all of $300 and spent another $100 for the total rebuild. Not much to rebuild on a jointer. I had a 1954, 30" Oliver 166 that I put in storage for about 12 years and sold it last year for $3700. Deals can be found but nobody is going to knock on your door with one. You need to find them. I'll take a good 50-60 year old machine any time.
DJK
"Deals can be found but nobody is going to knock on your door with one"... DJK
Have to agree that nobody is going to knock on your door with one. I love the old machines, but finding them local is not as easy as sometimes portrayed. I spent two years looking for an older jointer.. 3 years for a BS and four years for a used industrial floor mortiser.
I finally purchased a new jointer and BS new.. stumbled across an industrial floor mortiser as Wilke Machinery had one left. Found a great deal on a Tannewitz 36" BS after 3 years at a close out auction at a small furniture factory in Ark. for $1800, but transporting it to Atlanta would have cost well over the purchase price as this weighed around 2000 lbs. And then there's a floor space and transporting if you move latter.
So.. the blanket statement Jeff made of "just get an old machine as they are better" is easy to type and a wonderful thought in theory, but the reality is it could take a long while and you might never find the right deal in your lifetime. You may need the machine today so you can cut tomorrow. Reality is reality!
Sarge..
"Reality is reality!"
Don't you just hate it when that happens?
-Steve
Yeah.. but I have faced it daily for 60 years and don't see an end to it in my lifetime. But.. that's reality. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Have a good day, Steve..
Sarge..
Sarge
For what it's worth, I didn't have any difficulty finding the machines I purchased. If you know where to look, they are not that hard to come by.
Opinions may vary, and your mileage may be different.
Jeff
I suppose I didn't know where to look, Jeff. I used E-bay.. craigs-list.. 3 old machinery auction sites but never found what I was looking for close by or it was over-price. And I had feelers out to 3 machinery dealers that do pick up older machines local. But to no avail.
I am glad you found some deals on the older. I would be glad if others found some deals. But.. not everyone is going to find them and I clearly stated that. You could stumble on on 10 minutes after you start to look or you might never find one looking often. Searching for older machinery is not my hobby and after a certain amount of patience, I just bought new as I'm not getting any younger.
You might post some of your sources so these people you are steering in that direction will have a clue where to look. That would probably be helpful to them..
So... as you say... time and mileage may vary...
Sarge..
Sarge
I received 3 emails on that today. I pointed them to the sources. Anyone who needs help can feel free to email me. I don't feel it necessary to advertise for someone else's business on this site.
Jeff
Good deal Jeff... I coulda used some pertinent info on where for several years before I went new. Especially on a BS and jointer. The folks around here that have them aren't about to give them up. Maybe when they pass and the family sells them off.. then again the sons (if any) usually grab em with gusto.
BTW.. you mentioned Oliver in your original post.. The old Oliver is in there with the Northfield.. etc., but caution as Oliver was re-introduced several years ago now and is made on the Pacific Rim which is not the same as the old U.S. made ones. OK, IMO.. but not the same to those that don't know.
Regards...
Sarge..
Edited 2/13/2008 12:49 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
Sarge
GREAT point, and I wanted to mention it earlier, but didn't want it to seem like I was bashing a "new" company.
Oliver has changed hands, and is being run now by Eagle Machinery, and they are selling pacific rim iron under the great name of Oliver.
When I saw that the first time a few years back, I truly was pi$$ed off. An American icon of truly wonderful equipment having it's name destroyed in such a way. They should have changed the name, but that's just my .02. My American pride took a major hit with that one!
Jeff
Jeff,
What in tarnation!? Your shop has shavings and sawdust on the floor! You been working in there? If ya need an assistant.............
:-)
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
It's just the crappy dust collection on those obsolete dinosaurs! :)Beautiful machine, but I'm afraid it would go right through my floor!
I'll have to stick with my DJ-20 until I get a shop with cement floors.A cabinet shop near me has one that looks just like that, gets heavy use and just keeps going year in year out.
Hey Bob
Yeah, I do get a little work done....ha ha ha!
Jeff
Well I'm going jump in and say look hard at the Grizzly. I've had my Parallelogram G609 12" for a couple months now. I did not get the carbide insert version, but the 4 HSS version (I plan to upgrade after I completely wear out this set of blades only because of the ease of blade change). The difference in cost is about $700.00. At the time my budget did not allow for the extra for the carbide (byrd) head. Anyway $1800 to the door (add a $30 rental for an engine hoist to lift the bugger off the pallet and onto my shop floor. It's a beast and the long tables make doing a long board a piece of cake with no movement. I put a large wide cherry plank on it (11"+)and no problems at all, and it was Dead flat! Below is the link to my original post! I'm doing a cherry hutch with almost all figured stuff and no burps at all. After fighting a small 6" jointer for years, what a joy! I looked at the combo unit Jointer/planer and if the infeed/outfeed tables had been longer, I may have went with that version. I've got a lot of grizzly now (TS,BS,Jointer, and Horizontal boring machine), and no complaints at all! If you want to spend thousands more for a different color, go ahead, but you will not go wrong with the grizzly and you will keep a few thousand dollars in your pocket. It does its job well with all stock flat and that second face 90 degrees to the flat surface and not a grunt! If you have any particular questions let me know
http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=38959.1
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it.
And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Hi bones, I'm also in the market for an upgrade jointer and am looking very hard at the Griz 12". Looks to be a solid machine that will do what I need and last my lifetime.
I am not going for the Byrd or any other spiral indexable head simply because of a review I read in FWW. The quality of the cut is just not that much better then a 3 or 4 blade cutterhead. It was demonstrated on a wide piece of very birdy birdseye and the cut was a mirror finish.
I do like the idea of the revolving cutters but dont think blade sharpening or replacement is that big an expense or hassle. Just not worth 6-8 hundred bucks to me.
Brian
"I do like the idea of the revolving cutters but dont think blade sharpening or replacement is that big an expense or hassle. Just not worth 6-8 hundred bucks to me.
Brian"
That's the beauty of the choices, you can decide what you want. I looked hard at the carbide cutter (because I hate setting the knives). That added cost was just past my budget (ok well past) and I needed it for a project (ok wanted). I figured the cost of upgrading later and it was no different that if I bought it out of the box. I figure I'll ride this set of knives into the ground and then consider the change. Good luck.Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
Bri
I have the same feeling about the expense of these helical spiral cutterheads. I'm still going to smooth out all my furniture with a smoothing plane, anyway, so why spend the money on a cutterhead which creates a smoother finish, but still doesn't allow you to go straight to finishing(oil, shellac, etc....).
Jeff
bones
2 things.....
1.) I'll take the pepsi challenge with my old tools against anything made by Grizzly, and win each contest. errr, err, err.........
Since you don't have to worry about money buy one (grizzly) do the side by side challenge and prove it (you can call the griz Pepsi)! To win, your board will be flat and have two faces perpendicular from the oldie but goodie, and the Grizzly will not be flat or have two perpendicular faces. I'll bet they are both flat on one face, and the second face perpendicular, but that's my hunch errr, err, err................. Remember if it's a tie one can't loose!
2.) I didn't have any payments on my Porsches (928 and 911 cab), so that's a bad analogy.
Cost over time or cost up front is cost the just the same! I won't get into the time value of money discussion here. If you feel your car analogy was bad then it was faulty to begin with.
Have a great day!
Right back at ya buddy! Lets go make some sawdust!
.
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it.
And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
I just returned from a stay in the EU and worked some days in a complete Felder shop. If you can afford it, I would go Felder in a heartbeat. It's like a surgical tool. I don't know about the Hammer line.
Back here, I borrow time in a shop with ancient (I don't know how old at 4AM) Oliver jointer 12"+. It's super solid/heavy but I would still go Felder if I could afford it.
I have been looking to buy the Grizzly Combo since it came out but I've never heard from anyone who's purchased it, and the tables are to short for me to take the risk.
Good luck w/your decision.
Edited 2/13/2008 4:23 am ET by TWG
"Geez, man
Give it a rest!
I'm done with this conversation as of right now. You can post back, so you can have the last word, as I now know how important it is to you..........
Neither of our last few posts were condusive to the thread.....I'll apologize for wasting everyone's time"
Dude, take a deep breath! You can't waste anybody else's time so don't apologize. Differing opinions are ok. As to having the last word no big deal here consider the topic closed. I thought is was with my "lets go make some saw dust" at the end of my last post. No offense intended. Take care man!
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it.
And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
I was in a similar quandary a couple of months ago, almost ordered the Grizzly 12" but decided to wait and think whether a jointer/planer would suit my needs better. As I was trying to decide a 12" Griggio jointer with a tersa head popped up on woodweb, the jointer was about 7 hours away but for about the same cost as the grizzly with an insert head I ended up with a tool I think is much nicer and I'm real happy with.
The drawback with old iron is that you need to educate yourself first about them, like how to tell if a babbit bearing is still good and how to judge whether the machine is worn out or just kinda rough around the edges and needs a good cleaning. The upside is that most anything that is worn can be rebuilt by a decent machine shop although it can get expensive. The other problem for me is that a fair amount of old tools are missing guards and I feel especially on jointers that they are important.
If you have time it pays to be patient, I see a lot of nice tools show up on craigslist. i would not only check your local one but also any large metropolitan areas near you.
Tom
Heck, if I could chime in, I'd say I would love to have a 10,000 jointer like a Northfield. Who wouldn't? But, and not a cheap solution by any means, I researched long and hard and went with the minimax combo. Can't see that I'll be disappointed for a long time, if ever. And the tersa knives are super. The tables dead one, the customer service irreproachable. You should definitely consider one of these euro babes before deciding.
My advice is, first decide the type of woodworking that you will be doing. I've been working with wood, "professionally", for more than 30 years. I buy my wood in the rough and I mill it with machines that are powerful and well made, but not industrial quality. I also work alone and do very little production work. Most of machines that I own are probably manufactured out of the US. These machines have worked well for me for many years. If you are considering on mass production work or looking to run a shop that takes on more employees, which usually means greater production, then you probably should look into purchasing industrial type machines. But again, I have defined my work around simple well made machines and a ton of well made hand tools. Actually, my hand tools are insured for more than my machines. You will do well by checking out the jointers and other machines that are reviewed by Fine Woodworking or other woodworking group. Laguna makes a lighter duty jointer/planer combo that comes in a 10" and 12" model which costs about $1,500 and $2,000 respectively. I hope this info was helpful.
Best Regards, Rob
I have a minimax combo machine with 12" (really only 11-1/2" ) jointer/planer and really like it for both functions. Dont get rid of your other planner though. It is quite handy to have both available. The jointer table is quite long and is excellent for milling rough lumber. Most of my work is in white quatersawn oak and it handles it quite well.
Thanks for all the info. I mainly start all my projects with rough sawn lumber and have used mostly black walnut, eastern red cedar, osage orange, and quarter sawn white oak but have several other species I want to use in the future. Currently it's only a hobby and that is all it will likely be but hopefully for another 40 years. I've purchased my share of cheaper, limited capacity equipment in the past only to be disgusted when certain projects weren't possible, or much more difficult because of the accuracy or capacity of what I had. I'm wanting my future equipment to last my lifetime, not limit my options, and not give me many headaches.Currently my 6" jointer is my biggest limiting factor as I routinely work with wider lumber and boards over 6' in length which my 6" jointer really can't handle, at least not without support tables and bolting to the floor as some of my larger pieces of oak can cause the jointer to tip by there weight alone. An 8" would be much better but I still could use the width of a 12" and would like a 16" to give me plenty of capacity for cleaning up glue joints on glue ups. I also have used some 14" wide quarter sawn lumber that is stable enough, to not really benefit from being ripped and glued back up.After I get a bigger jointer my next limiting factor will be my planer thus the reason I'm considering a combo, not to mention the space savings and possibly $$$$$ savings if I can find a deal!
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