Okay, I should have known better. Some time ago I bought a Shop Fox mortsier new at a good price. And, I guess I got what I paid for. I have a Delta mortising attachment for a drill press that does much better. The problem with the SF appears to have everything to do with how well things are aligned between the bit and the hollow chisel. One lesson I have learned in this is to test whateve I buy immediately. I didn’t use this one, but let it sit until I needed it a couple days ago.
So, if I am going to buy another make of mortiser, what do you recommend and why? Price I should expect to pay? Where would I get it?
A good bench top is probably fine for me, although a floor model could be okay if it is not too expensive.
With all the buyouts/mergers are Jet and Powermatic the same? What about General or GI? Any other manufacturers I am not thinking of?
Any thoughts? Recommendations?
Thanks,
Alan – planesaw
Edited 7/8/2006 6:53 pm ET by Planesaw
Edited 7/8/2006 6:55 pm ET by Planesaw
Replies
Id be real surprised if you get any responses to this question as there are multiple responses to the same question in Power Tools and Machines - Who makes a good mortiser? Should find something in there you can use...
Well, thanks for weighing in, but I started that discussion and didn't get this question answered, other than one or two. The discussion took off in a bit of a different direction that I thought was going to solve my problem, but it turns out it didn't.
What I am looking for is people's opinion about different mortisers and their quality. Benchtop or low end floor model. Sarge has had good luck with his SF. I bought SF chisels today and mine didn't get any better. My guess is that the machine may have not been manufactured properly, being slightly out of alignment. My problem is I bought the machine some time ago and didn't use it until now. Granted, that was my mistake, but it is still frustrating to have spent money on a machine that ruins chisels and bits. I have tried different size chisels and bits, tried remounting them in the machine 3 or 4 times, but all to no avail.
So, as I spend more time making sawdust, I am looking for people who have used mortisers and have knowledge of any comparative data, along with real experience.
Thanks,
Alan - planesaw
Alan, if you want to e-mail me your phone #. I'll give you a quick call. Something is not kosher about switching chisels and ruining them.
Regards...
SARGE... g-47
Not to beat a dead horse for too long, but did you ever get a chance to call Woodstock? They might still stand behind the machine. If you end up virtually giving it away, LMK. I've always wanted one, LOL.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Is it possible that the bit was too close to the chisel bottom? The owner's manual for my PM 719 suggests installing the chisel about 1/16" from "home", installing the bit against the bottom of the chisel, and then sliding the chisel tight against its stop. If you experienced a burned bit tip there likely was not sufficient clearance between bit and chisel.For what it's worth, I started with a Delta drill press mortising attachment. After the first test use of the PM 719 floor standing mortiser I couldn't wait to give away the drill press attachment. No experience with a benchtop.
Edited 7/9/2006 4:23 pm ET by DonStephan
Don, Sarge, Forest Girl, et al,
Nope, clearances were fine. I know the usual wisdom is if you have burning bit or chisel is that it wasn't set up properly -- e.g. inadequate clearances. That was not the case here. I routinely use the "dime" clearance method and have not had any problems.
I have used the Delta mortising attachment quite a bit and have not had a problem at all. Other than you don't have much leverage with the drill press. But, no problems with the bits/chisels working fine.
While spending way too much time on it last night I am becoming suspicious that the primary problem is the bit and chisel. They are SF brand were $7.50 each.
I swapped out some Jet brand chisel/bits and things were smoother -- smoother, but not near as good as when they are in the Delta mortising attachment. When I put the SF chisel/bit in the Delta attachment there is almost no change.
I then began to spend time with a large magnifyer and it appears the SF bit is a touch too large and totally not sharp. Actually, blunt and appears chips missing. I worked a good bit to sharpen and hone, but still no change in the problem. Based on this, my guess is that the tip of the bit is too large. Further evidence is the extra wood missing when I drill with it. The bit takes out extra wood beyond the sides of the chisel. More than any of the Jet chisel/bits.
Sarge, I have family with 2 youngest grandkids this week so I may not be able to talk with you until next weekend or following. Would love to do so.
So, bottom line. It appears my problem could be a combination -- bad bit and chisel holding portion of machine not properly aligned.
I may not be checking in much during the week due to work and grandkids (the rest of the family counts, too).
Alan - planesaw
Interesting Alan. If you mic the outer drill bit and the inner chisel, that would tell the story. If the drill bit is OK, the chuck may be mis-aligned casuing the drill bit to cant slightly. That would cause the drilling outside the chisel and touching of the chisel and drill bit tip. And you would hear it grind.
Let you attend to the family.. if I can help, e-mail me. Going to the shop..
Regards...
SARGE.. g-47
Sarge,
With the chisel/bit installed properly, there is a grinding sound. When I move that same SF chisel/bit over to the Delta mortiser attachment it is not as severe but still clearly present (the grinding sound).
The part of the bit that I think is oversized is that first ring, right at the base of the bit where the flat cutting edge of the bit is. Even with the proper spacing, one can hear the grinding and see one side of chisel heat up.
I'll see if I can measure it somehow.
The kids are a blast. Sam is 2 yrs 4 mos, and Eva is almost 9 mos. Sam loves anything with wheels on it and Eva loves to watch Sam and see if she can grab whatever he is playing with. Thankfully, they are two very happy kids.
An adapted quote from someone: I have 4 perfect grandchildren and 3 pretty good kids.
Alan - planesaw
When you get back to the mortiser, you might try not letting the drill tip come through as much as called for. Bruce has the drill bit covered with rolling it on a flat surface. It's possible for the hollow chisel shaft to be mis-aligned also.
I'm going to put the mic on mine tomorrow. These puppies are made in China and mine are from several years ago. They are definitely not machine tolerated for a NASA space launch, but I have logged a lot of miles with no problem. Still wondering about the chuck alignment on your machine.
I might call customer service just to see if they have en-countered this before as my curiousity is certainly rising.
Congrats on those grand-babies. I'm sure you won't spoil them as grand-parents don't do that, do they? ha.. ha...
Regards...
SARGE.. g-47
There's no comparison between a bench top model and a floor model mortiser. The 719 powermatic is what I purchased to replace a Delta bench top. The hold down is far superior as well, the leverage for deep mortises in difficult woods. If you get the chance to use a standup floor model then a benchtop on the same piece of wood, you'll understand what I'm saying. Well worth the difference in price.
Alan, One thing I haven't seen here yet is a question technique. My question is. Do you take full bites with the chisel or half bites ?? Half bites will tend to force the drill bit twords the "NO LOAD" side, thus the drill rubs on the chisel.
Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Bruce,
Excellent question, but alas, not the problem here. I take full bites, then come back and take out what is in between. I think I do a fairly good job of following standard procedure in cutting/drilling/chopping mortises. I had no problem with the Delta drill press and mortise attachment. I thought I would be improving my lot with the purchase of a benchtop mortiser.
The grinding noise is from the second you turn the machine on.
Alan - planesaw
OK, Just didn't want to leave any stones unturned. That answer is one of the most common problems I get as a tech rep. OK, Now have you rolled the bit across a flat surface to see if it's warped? The cross sections of those bits is pretty small, and some really small and easily bent when dull. Try chucking up the bit alone and see how it runs. You might want to check for chuck run out with a straight piece of drillrod.Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
I called Woodstock Inter-national today and spoke to Chris in TECH. I asked if he had ever heard of this and the answer we didn't want to hear was Yes.. Seems that the SF engineers designed the bit in a way that it cuts the full width of the mortise so the hollow chisel has a reduced load.
He said that all will touch the bit with deflection and a slight grind is always present. I honed my chisels and drill bits and had heard no real grind. So... to-nite I had my son accompany me to the shop. Turned on the SF and I heard no grind. The bad news is he did. Called my wife down on the inter-com and she did too. Opps....
The grind was obviously there all along. I lost about 30% hearing in VN and have trouble with high pitched sounds. So..... what to do now that I have bit touching chisel is the question?
If I had to cut tons of mortises for slats or etc. daily, I would go the the PM 719 A. But they replaced it with the PM 719 T which tilts. I always wanted one, but didn't like the fact that it didn't have rack and pinion. But... the PM 719 T is being replaced with the New PM 720 which has tilt, rack and pinion and the motor beefed from 1 HP to 1 1/2 HP. And of course a Newer Improved price tag.
Bottom line is at this point, I going to let my BIL take my chisels and bits to the Delta Airlines Machine Shop where he is a shop foreman and do a little high tech tuning. At that point, I'm going to run the SF till it drops. Three years of service and probably 1000 + mortises latter tells me that even with less than desirable Chinese (chiesel set) engineering specs, the machine will work without major over-heating and the grinding which I can't hear anyway. :>)
I've always said that if someone would build a medium priced bench-top with dual columns. rack and pinion and a sliding table they would create a monopoly in that market. I guess nobody in engineering listens to the consumer and caters to our "in the trench needs". Either that or they have lost 30% of their hearing and just can't hear us (wood-workers) begging. Either way.. sad when you build first and ask questions about how it could have been better latter.
Regards...
SARGE.. g-47
Edited 7/10/2006 10:57 pm ET by SARGEgrinder47
Sarge,
It is nice to be vindicated. And, I agree with your thoughts that "if someone would build a medium priced bench-top with dual columns. rack and pinion and a sliding table they would create a monopoly in that market."
I don't need a floor standing machine, but I do want a good one. I guess if they built a good one, we wouldn't need to buy another one for 20 or 30 years.
Back to the grandkids. We are building a man who flops down a ladder. Don't know the technical name, but copying one my granddad gave me for Christmas about 56 years ago, which I still have.
Alan - planesaw
"We are building a man that flops down a ladder. Don't know the technical name...."
If it's a man who flops down a ladder while painting a house with a bad knee from sky-diving and another from skiing, my lovely might technically suggest you call him JT. ha.. ha...
Go attend to those grand-kids... :>)
SARGE.. g-47
I would also look at the Frame Mortise and Tenon (FMT) jig by Leigh, http://www.leighjigs.com/fmt.php. I've had one for a few years and it is terrific. It can't do everything, but neither can a conventional mortisers and it is a true joy to use.
Planesaw,
I reread your other post and the following thread, it appeared that you were gonna stick with the SF. Well, IMHO, assuming the chuck runout is ok on the SF, buy 1 good bit and chiesel to see how it does. Im willing to bet that will make the difference. You can probably return it if you stick to 1 or two mortises, if it does not give good results.
I hope you can solve the problem before throwing more $$ on another machine. But if it comes to that, I am very pleased with my General. Its a benchtop model and pretty heavy. When I mounted it on a cart, it was even nicer to use. The front vise works great. The top hold down devise could have been better. Its two piece design takes some getting use too. Plenty of power, and the fit and finish were very good. Its also a tilting model, and got it at Woodcraft, about $300.00. There was a article in FWW on benchtop models, and their conclusion was the speed didnt play a big factor in it. Lastly, if you end up replaceing your machine, whatever you buy, test it ASAP, so you can return it if its not up to snuff.
Joe P
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled