Hi all,
I’m considering a Jpanese saw for hardwoods. I’ve spent some time at Hida and JWW and not seen anything designated for hardwoods. Figure most of my work will be in oak, cutting tenons. I’ve been using a Paragon bras backed saw and I don’t like it yet. Seems the teeth aren’t set for ripping endgrain and it doesn’t leave the finest cheek. I looked a some Japanese saws at Rockler yesterday but wasn’t sure any of those would be correct for harder woods. They are very sharp but I don’t see them as being very forgiving, very thin.
I’m not one who buys the idea of Japanese tools being used primarily for soft woods, but imagine they do specialise them for different woods.
Obviously the LN saw is high quality by reputation but I’ve not used one or even hefted one so I’m reluctant to fork out the bucks without some honest feedback. From what I’ve read they seem to understand what the teeth should be for particular applications and while they cost more I can see having it for quite a lot longer than the Japanese saws.
Thanks,
N
Replies
Have you check out Japan Woodworker?
http://www.japanwoodworker.com
you can have that paragon refiled to rip configuration and have the set reduced some. If you find a good saw doctor you could find some vintage Distons and have it filed to rip as well.
Depends on how much you want to spend. And if you prefer pull or push stroke on your saw.
L-Ns sell both carcass saws for rip and x-cut.
I bought two of the LieNielsen saws and was immediately amazed at how much better they worked than the Paragon I was using. The difference is much greater than I thought. They have a much thinner kerf and a more aggressive cut. THey do not sacrifice smoothness to acheive this. Hans
Call them at Japan Woodworker. They will give you advise about the proper saw to use for hard woods.
Most Japanese saws are not designed to use in hard woods and teeth are sometimes damaged. Most woodworking in Japan is done with soft woods.
That said, I have a rather standard japanese saw I have used for dovetailling for at least six or seven years.
I can’t say anything about Japanese saw, because I’ve never used them. I can say something about the LN saws. I have two of them, the dovetail filed rip and a tenon saw filed rip and they do a super job of sawing with and across the grain. I don’t care for saws with overly fine teeth , and the LN’s have aggressive teeth, but leave a smooth finish. One other thing I like about the LN’s is the high polish on the blades, while this is probably done for appearance, It is a great aid in sawing square and 45 degree miters, since you can use the reflection to judge cut. While expensive, I don’t think you could go wrong with the LN’s
Rob,
Couldn't agree more on the LN's. Nice to see you're still here. Anything you're working on which might make its way into the gallery?
For Notrix, you will be forever satisfied with the LN saws. There are advantages, however, with Japanese saws, including quick, smooth cut and very thin kerfs, sometimes an advantage in dovetailing, depending on the appearance you're after. Don't just shop on line for one. Call them at Hida or Japan Woodworker and really talk about your needs. Some saws are indeed better with hardwoods. Unless you know the timber you expect to use and the purpose for the saw, your experience with the Japanese saws can be almost as frustrating as with a sub-par western style.
For the most part, I like the LN. It is a superb tool and works the way I learned to saw. I like to use a bench hook, etc.... My mind works on the push stroke a bit more naturally, I guess. I have to think about it when cutting on the pull stroke. Kind of like using a faucet which turns off by turning counter-clockwise; even if I've done it many times, I still splash myself....
Cheers,
Greg
I am working mostly in red oak at this time. I use an inexpensive Japanese style saw by Lee Valley (their own made in Korea saw) and it works very well. A little getting used to - it would be easy to ruin a saw if you are used to pushing - but the cut is very straight and smooth. For such a few dollars it's worth a try.
Since Japanese saws cut on the pull stroke, the blade is in tension during the cut. That is why the blades are thinner than their Western counterpart, which do the cutting on the push stroke and need to have a thicker blade because the blade is in compression. I don't know if there are Japanese saws made especially for hardwoods, but tpi and blade kerf could give some indication. I have used a dozuki to cut dovetails in beech, maple, and purpleheart with no ill effects. Of course, if you are set on the Lie-Nielsen, don't let me dissuade you as I had a chance to try them out and can tell you they are superb.
I know we're getting a bit off the original question, but I have to add, I haven't used my L-N dovetail saw for a while, and this weekend used it to cut some tenon shoulders. I had forgotten what a beautiful tool this is! It cuts aggressively with a beautifully smooth surface. If you're willing to spend the money I don't think you could go wrong with the L-N tool.
I believe one of the main reasons for the popularity of Japanese saws is that very few woodworkers have actually used a properly sharpened western saw.
I used Japanese saws for years and some of them were relatively expensive saws--even a couple specifically designed for hardwoods. I've gone through hundreds of dollars worth of saws. Yes, most of them were damaged because I screwed up but the result was a ruined saw. Each of those saws is now basically worthless.
Six or seven years ago I finally figured out how good a properly sharpened western style saw is. I don't have a Lie-Nielsen but I do have an Independence saw which is the predecessor of the Lie-Nielsen. I'm probably the third or fourth owner of some of the old saws I use and I expect to use them the rest of my life.
Most incidental damage to a western style saw is repairable and cutting new teeth isn't a big issue. It's not difficult to learn to sharpen your own saws if you use western saws. The rigid blade offers better control and a western style handle works better with the human body allowing a woodworker to use his/her natural sense of plumb.
I think Lie-Nielsen's saws are the best of the new saws available. Given the fact that I now consider the Japanese saws I used to represent wasted money and barriers to achieving accurate work, I would have to say the Lie-Nielsen saws are hands down the best of the choices you mentioned.
I haven't used the L-N Western-style saws, but I have used the Japanese-style saws available from Garrett Wade (http://www.garrettwade.com), and have been satisfied. They offer saws designated for softwoods, hardwoods and "both" (although the latter probably loses some effectiveness).
David
Look, I made a hat -- Where there never was a hat!
I've used a Japanese pull saw for about 7 years, paid $30.00 for it. Mostly I've used it for dovetail cutting. I've cut mostly oak and it has lost a few teeth but, it still will cut quite well. When it gets to the point it isn't acceptable anymore I will buy a new blade for it.
God Bless and Happy New Year
les
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