Replies

1. 
   [email protected] | May 05, 2007 08:27pm | #1

   Last I heard there really weren't many hard and fast rules to finishing. 

   If you have a finish the delivers what you want; in terms of effort required, consistency, visual impact, and durability, go with it. 

   Many of the methods the "pros" use are more a matter of what takes the minimal amount of resources, (cost), in terms of time and materials to consistently produce a saleable product.  Very infrequently is the "pro" method what a craftsman working for himself will do.  In part because we don't own the equipment required, and in part because other more labor intensive methods can, and frequently do, deliver superior results. 

   The "pros" need a finish that is consistent on a run of several thousand units, for which there is no predictable way to forecast, which units will end up next to each other in the same installation.  Their finish has to be consistent, and durable, and not necessarily high in quality or bring out the best of the woods caharacter and beauty.

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   Edited 5/5/2007 1:29 pm ET by Jigs-n-fixtures

   
   

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   Edited 5/5/2007 1:33 pm ET by Jigs-n-fixtures

2. 
   Kevin | May 05, 2007 09:07pm | #2

   I'm wondering if you understood Jeff correctly. As a "pro" I can tell you that pigment stains are routinely used on Cherry and other woods. Also, gel stains use pigments and I'm positive that Jeff knows this. I think what Jeff intended to convey is that oil stains aren't designed to be used the way you want to use it  (over a sealer)  and for a variety of reasons. I could go into them in some detail if you want, but I sense that you're more interested in getting a workable finish schedule that will produce the look you are after rather than wading into the minutia of why an oil stain isn't well suited to this sort of finish schedule.

   Honestly, I would suggest doing it the way Jeff suggested. By using both a dye and a pigmented stain you are talking about using a multi-step color process. And since every multi-step color is the cumulative total of all the steps (dye+gel=finish color), the easiest way to fine tune the color is to alter one of the steps until a color match is achieved. In your case I think that the dye would be the easiest way to do that.

   You'll need some sample material which is finish sanded to your final grit. Then find a gel stain or glaze which gets as close to your chosen color as possible and make a control sample with a light sealer coat over unstained Cherry and then apply the glaze/gel to determine what it will look like so that you then are able to analyze what color aspects you're going to need the dye to produce. Then tweak the dye color to get you the rest of the way there.

   Keep in mind that how heavy of a sealer coat you put on under the glaze/gel is going to have a large impact on how much color the glaze/gel is going to impart. Normally only a wash coat of highly thinned sealer is used between the dye and whatever the pigmented stain may be. If a heavier coat of sealer is used then there are less places for the pigments in the glaze/gel to lodge and you won't leave enough color behind when you wipe it clean. A highly thinned sealer coat only partially seals the wood and leaves plenty of places for the pigments to lodge in when you wipe it clean.

    

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   Edited 5/5/2007 2:12 pm by Kevin

   
   

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   Edited 5/5/2007 2:13 pm by Kevin

1. 
   dperfe | May 05, 2007 10:30pm | #3

   "I think what Jeff intended to convey is that oil stains aren't designed to be used the way you want to use it (over a sealer) and for a variety of reasons. "Kevin, that's pretty much what I was looking for. I didn't inquire further with Jeff because I just didn't want to take up too much of his time. Could you elaborate a little as to why the oil based pigment stain isn't designed to be used over a sealer? I'm curious.Just to explain a little more on this process I was using. I experimented with both the bullseye sealcoat and the lacquer. I was actually putting a pretty heavy seal coat on so as to suspend the oil based pigment stain. It created a toned look on the small samples i made. Anyway, I have some pretty nice spray equipment that i bought through Homestead a few years back, so I think I'm going to try doing a toner. I'll go by the process he describes in his books, dye, seal, glaze and then apply the toner. It's about time I started using it for something more complex than just die, and clear finishes.Thank you both for the assistance.

   Edited 5/5/2007 3:37 pm ET by dperfe

1. 
   Kevin | May 06, 2007 12:45am | #4

   The problem is the oil, although many of them are actually a blend of oil and varnish.

   1. Oils are relatively soft when cured, softer than either the sealer or the topcoat. That means that you'd have a built in weakness in the finish which could be avoided by not using an oil stain that way.

   2. The oil isn't going to bond as well to either the sealer or the topcoat as a solvent-based stain will, again building in a weak link in the overall finish.

   3. Oils take a minimum of 24 hours to dry and many prefer to wait even longer. And that's using the oil directly on the wood where 100% cure isn't strictly necessary (although it is advised!). What happens if you topcoat an oil before it's dried is that the uncured oil will slowly attack the backside of your topcoat, eventually causing a rather spectacular (and ugly) failure of the topcoat. Trust me, I've seen it happen. Sometimes you can get away with slightly less than 100% cure of the oil if it's on solid wood because there is a means for the oil to ever so slowly dry via the backside of the board. But trapping it between sealer (or any other impermiable layer) and a topcoat would spell certain doom unless it is 100% perfectly cured out. Not immediately... it can take months for the topcoat to fail, depending on how much of the oil was dry. But it will fail, it's just a matter of when.

   Oil stains just aren't used commercially for the above reasons. They can be, but none of the stain manufactorers market oil stains to the commerical market. Instead they market solvent and water-based stains which cure much faster and are more compatible with commercial finishes.

1. 
   nikkiwood | May 08, 2007 08:32am | #5

   Kevin,Now you've got me worried. 20 years ago, I lightly sanded then rubbed down a rather wide expanse of woodwork in my own house (wainscoting and casings in an entry and stairway); it had been stained and varnished, and probably hadn't been touched since the house was built (1903).But it was worn and needed something; but it was not in bad enough shape to require stripping. So after I cleaned it up and rubbed it down, I used a wash coat of a pigmented oil stain (mixed to match the old), followed with a single top coat of varnish.Even today, it looks great -- with nary a spot where the varnish is not adhering. Now the worried part.I recently took on a job that, among many other projects, involves using this same technique to redo all the woodwork on the first floor. My guys have cleaned/sanded everything, and they are just now finishing application of the same kind of pigmented oil stain. Once dry, we will varnish it. So my question is, have I dug myself into a hole here? Any thoughts, advice, etc.?This is a flip house, and the client is someone that I have done a huge amount of work for over the years. ********************************************************
   "It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."

   John Wooden 1910-

1. 
   Kevin | May 08, 2007 05:58pm | #6

   I personally wouldn't use a oil-based toner over a finish material. But the greater risk is in topcoating it before it's dry. As long as it's dry and compatible with whatever you topcoat it with then it's really just a matter of adhesion/durability between the undercoat, the stain and the topcoat. So to more directly answer your question, no... I don't necessarily think you've dug yourself a hole per se. Your guys are cleaning and sanding, both of which are key to adhesion. And it's going over an existing (i.e., fully cured) finish... which is really a fundamentally different situation from using an oil stain over an uncured finish material as the original poster wanted to do.

   I believe that a solvent-based stain would present less downside on your job compared to the oil-based stain. But, I don't see any glaring problems waiting to bite you. Final adhesion may be less than you'd get using a solvent-based under the same circumstances. But that's not necessarily a big deal because you'll probably get at least acceptable adhesion.

   I've had adhesion problems between solvent-based stains and solvent-based topcoats. So I don't want to leave the impression that solvent-based is some sort of guarantee. It comes down to compatibilty and organic chemistry. If you're unsure I would call the manufactorer of the stain and ask to speak to a technical rep and see what they say. Most, if not all, of them have a better grasp of the organic chemistry than I do and I'd be inclined to go along with their suggestions.

2. 
   nikkiwood | May 09, 2007 09:19am | #7

   Thanks for your provisos.The stain seems dry (after about four days), but we can let it sit for another week before we have to varnish. We'll see..............********************************************************
   "It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."

   John Wooden 1910-