Replies

1. 
   eddiefromaustralia | Jan 21, 2003 01:28pm | #1

   From a liability point of view, if you build something to his design, knowing the violations in building codes involved, then you could be partially liable for building failure or injury at a later date.  I don't think that a signed waiver would hold up in court, but each legislature is different.

   I'd patiently and calmly explain what problems that I foresaw this causing to the building, mention that I wouldn't want to expose myself to this liability and walk away from this job if s/he persisted.

   Done this before, by the way.

   Just my two cents, what do others think?????

   eddie.

   
   

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   Edited 1/21/2003 5:29:33 AM ET by eddie (aust)

2. 
   RickL750 | Jan 21, 2003 03:48pm | #2

    I agree a 100% with Eddie you can’t allow a client to put you in that situation where you’re breaking the law and no matter what the client says or signs you will be liable. If something was to go wrong after completion you know the client would come after you and unfortunately the woodworker or contractor is considered responsible because you should have known better. Unfortunately I know this from experience I used to work with my father a builder and we did a job to accommodate a client and because we needed a pay check and it came back and bit us in the a**. Explain to the client that first of all it’s a code violation, second you don’t do that type of work, third if he insist tell him to hire and architect to come up with a safe alternative. If he still insists say thank you for the offer and walk away.

   Good luck,

   RickL

   The customer is always right!  Absolutely, Positively, Probably not.

3. 
   camel | Jan 21, 2003 03:50pm | #3

   Sawick- By you giving the guy a bid doesn't mean that you have to build it that way. What I mean is, if the guys being ignorant and wants his house to cave in, and insists on a price from you anyway, then hell, give him a price of what you would charge if you were dumb enough to destroy ####load bearing wall for a cabinet. Some people you can't get through to. Just tell him that here's my price if I were to do it your way, but I refuse to do it your way. Offer different options to him.

   John E. Nanasy

4. 
   MPHarper | Jan 21, 2003 07:31pm | #4

   Just add $300,000 to your bid price and tell the customer that its to cover the expenses that you will incur when his house falls down or you get fined for not building to code.  I wouldn't want to  work for someone like that anyway.

   Matt- 

   
   

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   Edited 1/21/2003 12:11:20 PM ET by MPHARPER

5. 
   forestgirl | Jan 21, 2003 07:41pm | #5

   In the example given, would you be installing said cabinet?  Are you required to have a contractor's license to do so?  If the answers are yes, seems like that puts you in an untenable position.

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

6. 
   observer | Jan 21, 2003 10:25pm | #6

   Do you really want to work for someone who is convinced they know better than you, particularly when the liability for the work and the consequences that arise from it rest on your shoulders? Think of it as the first step in a long, bumpy road.

   I consider that sort of behavior from a customer as a big red flag, and am more than happy to leave them for those contractors without better sense.

1. 
   davamoore | Jan 21, 2003 10:46pm | #7

   Not only do I agree with most of what has been said (i.e., don't do it unless it's to code), I heartily agree with Dick in his questioning the value of working for such a client.  If it starts off like this, it will only get worse:  enough of us have been there ourselves to say -- in advance -- "I told you so."  Don't give us the opportunity.

   Of course, as a self-employed person I understand the temptation to ignore your gut feeling when there's no guarantee that another customer is standing in line behind this one.  (Of course, these days there's not much more security in the corporate world, either.)  Sometimes you just gotta have faith...

   In any negotiation, the one with the greatest power is the one who's willing to walk away.  If you have the time and the inclination -- and if I'm reading too much into your post; i.e., you DON'T have a gut feeling that the would-be client is necessarily trouble -- then why not draw up a bid that offers alternative solutions with real prices?  At that point, you've done your part, for yourself and your client (whether or not he agrees).

   David"The world that was not made is not won by what is done" -- Mundaka Upanishad

1. 
   davamoore | Jan 21, 2003 10:47pm | #8

   P.S.  One of the things I loved about living in Paris was that the proprietor was always right, not the customer.  It was very refreshing -- or rude, depending on whether you were a tourist or a resident.

   David"The world that was not made is not won by what is done" -- Mundaka Upanishad

7. 
   jeffn7 | Jan 22, 2003 01:27am | #9

   if you are knowingly violating a law, or regulation, no waiver of liability is legal. In other words, you can't release someone from the consequences of violating the law (if so, I guess contract killers would get off by saying they have a signed release from the person who hired them!).

   You are going down a slippery slope, my advice would be to let your values guide you. As for 'the customer always being right', that's a bunch of BS... anyone can be wrong, and placating a client who is clearly asking you to go against your principles not only sets a bad precedent, it also tarnishes your brand in the broader marketplace.

1. 
   ClancysBro | Jan 22, 2003 01:52am | #10

   I told the guy... isn't going to help him in the end. This would be one to walk away from to say the least. In general, customers think they are right more times then they really are. cough

   As a person and a Tradesmen,  it sounds like you already know this isn't right and sometimes a gut feeling like this will keep you from bad things. 

   Edited 1/21/2003 5:53:37 PM ET by protagora

1. 
   johnhardy | Jan 22, 2003 01:58am | #11

   There could be a middle ground here.

   The bearing wall can probably be re-engineered so that the "hole" doesn't compromise it's integrity and function. An architect or engineer should be consulted to handle that part.

   The other part, intrusion into a stairwell, should be re-thought so that the function the customer desires can be met within code. I'm sure some alternatives can be presented that meet the need the customer perceives he has.

   But I'd in general agree with everybody that there are times when you shouldn't proceed with a project. This is probably one of them.

   John

8. 
   mrles | Jan 22, 2003 09:44am | #12

   No the customer is not always right. I own a printing business and I have refused work over the years for many legal and moral reasons and haven't regretted doing so. Rules and laws are made for a reason, to protect our well being, your knowledge of these rules and laws puts you one up on the customer. It is your responsibility to tell the customer the proper way to do something. There is a customer down the road that will appreciate your knowledge. 

   God Bless

   les

9. 
   Jack_Pine | Jan 22, 2003 05:20pm | #13

   As the owner of a hardware store I deal with the same kind of situation everyday. ("What do you mean I can't just run two 120V cords to make 220V?" or "I'm just going to cut off the grounding prong.") I think Leonard Lee says it best on the LeeValley web site and I am probably going to adopt most, if not all of his "about us" section on the LeeValley website.  I think that this quote from the site is appropriate here.

   "We treat the customer like a friend. We do everything for you that we would do for a friend, including, where necessary, telling you if you are being unreasonable. "

   I do not subscribe to the theory that the customer is always right.  If the customer was always right they would not need to hire professionals or ask professionals their advice.

   If this customer insists on having it done contrary to code, walk away.  You don't sell cabinets and furniture. I don't sell hardware. We both sell value. Value being the qaulity and/ or worth of materials and principles. Oak is oak, solid construction is expected. Where you as an individual craftsman add or subtract value is your personal and business principles. By going contrary to code you remove the principles portion of the value equation meaning you have overcharged your customers in the past and will undercut the value of your future work.

1. 
   davamoore | Jan 23, 2003 05:45pm | #19

   "We both sell value." 

   Incredibly well put.  Thanks for the reminder.

   David"The world that was not made is not won by what is done" -- Mundaka Upanishad

10. 
    crt2cu2 | Jan 23, 2003 02:35am | #14

    Thanks to all who responded for the wise and sage advice. I have chosen not to give a bid for that untenable job, though sadly. I kind of pride myself on the ability to work with customers to make a "silk purse out of a sow's ear" when it comes to design challenges and making things work functionally as well as esthetically. I think that any custom woodworker should sell their services and products in such a way. But this job was just too impractical for me I guess. The potential customer was a good guy I think, just trying to organize a small kitchen to make it easier for his wife with MS. Pretty hard to justify architects, engineers and major bearing wall restructuring for what basically would be no more than a builtin kitchen cabinet even given raised panel doors and such.

    But back to the intent of my original post. Do you good woodworkers spend exorbitant amounts of time with clients explaining about the vagaries of constructing certain pieces, attempting to intuit a client's deemeanor, or simply being the answer man to any/all questions? I guess I mean to say, do you give advice away for free when preparing a bid?

    sawick

1. 
   johnhardy | Jan 23, 2003 02:56am | #15

   I'll give you a qualified answer. In a past life I had a general contractor's license and specialized in installing solar systems ... both for pools and for domestic hot water. My current love of woodworking is really a hobby that I'll move to full time at retirement (which is end of March unless I get another job ... I was made a very attractive offer to leave the business.)

   I always described what I would do in a job and did this for free. I wanted my customers to know how well I'd do the job both in terms of design and in terms of implementation.

   Only once was I "cheated". A customer got me to solve some very tough design questions and agreed to have me do the job ... and then a week before I was to start he backed out because he got someone else cheaper. The job was done exactly as I said I'd do it. Was I pissed off? Yes. Did it do anything more than ruin my day? No. Did I continue my practice of "full disclosure" to customers? Yes. I think you have to figure out what paradigm of business works for you and stick with it. I always felt that I did the best work out there, bar none, and always explained my techniques to customers. Only one customer refused to have me do business with them because I was "small". That lady was fearful that I'd be gone in a year and she'd have nobody to fix future problems. I had no argument for that and we parted amicably.

   John

   PS - Too bad this didn't work out. If the wife has MS she's severely handicapped and I'm sure the goal here was to make things much easier for her. This is a lose-lose when it should have been a win-win.

2. 
   FET3 | Jan 23, 2003 07:08am | #16

    

   It has been my experience that many people are only interested in the end results and do not always appreciate how one gets there. 

   There are times, as in your original post, that I believe I would be short sighted and remiss (not to mention potentially liable) not to express concerns regarding their wishes vs. what is required by code or just good solid building practices.  Those that are not willing to listen seem to want the best at the lowest cost possible and do not care what it takes to get there.   They also seem to be the ones who will blame everyone else for thing not turning out as they wanted.

   The times where code was not an issue and I attempted to cut corners or skimp at the customers request have inevitably resulted in call backs.  Thus, in my opinion, it is better to do it right the first time, even if it costs more and not have to go back on my time.  If they can't afford to do it correctly / proper (however you want to say it) then I can't afford the risk of doing the job.  

   Others, who do listen and appreciate the limitations and ramifications, may elect to not start their project given the true requirements and subsequent costs.  I have no problems with their decision and don't consider my time spent to be wasted.  Often they have ended up as customers on other projects or given me some excellent referrals as a result of having been straight forward with them from the beginning.

   I have benefited from the many posts generated by your original question.  Thanks

1. 
   jeffn7 | Jan 23, 2003 10:16am | #17

   "It has been my experience that many people are only interested in the end results and do not always appreciate how one gets there.  "

   but that's why they are paying someone else to do it... and in reality, we are all like that about a whole lot of stuff that we either don't understand, or don't want to understand. As much as the people on this forum view what they do as a craft that takes years of practice, investments in time and tooling, and lot's of mistakes to get good at...most people view it as either a product or a service. But then again, most of us on this forum don't take appreciate the years of research and development, hard fought for incremental gains, innovations and breakthroughs, and finally, intense competitive battles that resulted in... the computer you are using right now.

1. 
   FET3 | Jan 23, 2003 06:38pm | #20

   Jeff, I agree with the logic of your post.  Customers are paying for the knowledge as much as the skill to complete the task.  There are times that I have to remind myself that the customer could get anyone to do the job, but to do it properly - well that is something else isn't it.  Knowing "How" something must be done is paramount to the task in order to adhere to code / regulations.  The work itself may be quite simple to complete. 

   Your example of a computer is a good one.  Though I may not be an engineer, it helps if I know the fundamentals of the system in order to look for files, install programs, hook up new hardware, etc. 

11. 
    DennisS | Jan 23, 2003 10:59am | #18

    Sawick -

    Your bid (my bid if I were doing the job) would include the cost for consulting services from a structural engineer to design suitable framing to take care of the bearing wall situation. Figure about $75/hr for decent advice.

    Figure out if the stair can be revised to provide adequate headroom; re-routed or whatever. Add the cost of doing so to your price. If the bumb-bell doesn't get the picture, you don't want the job anyway. I don't think anyone in their right mind would pursue work like that.

    And yes, I would imagine you would be found at fault if you did the work. Revising a bearing wall would/should require a building permit which requires submission of drawings which requires addressing the issues you bring up.

    Just my point of view.

    ...........

    Dennis in Bellevue WA

    [email protected]