As you know, Ipe is twice the hardness of teak. Maybe not a great factor for one-ups, but in production I wonder if it wouldn’t be a disaster – particularly for complex designs, such as Scandinavian styles…lots of curves, lots of shaping, many parts, etc. I only pose the question because I can’t find photos on the web for Ipe furniture other than in very, very simple designs or modern metal/wood designs where the wood slats could easily be removed and used as flooring – the boards are all straight. I’ll reference my website later for viewers to see our designs if they wish, to help them assess potential problems.
Anyone have strong opinions on this?
Replies
"Anyone have strong opinions on this?"
You bet. Teak is a joy to work and a joy to behold.
Ipe is a very strong wood that is great for decks. It is not a joy to work. While teak does take its toll on tools, Ipe is much worse. Splinters from Ipe are terrible. It's a very heavy wood and furniture made from it is almost impossibly heavy. It is not a particularly attractive wood, by any measure, and compared to teak is quite an ugly sister.
Rich
Thanx, and not that I don't believe you - I do..here's the whole business picture I have to deal with: * It's patio furniture - all wood turns grey outdoors - so the visual can't be an issue* It's not me doing the woodworking - and frankly, my supplier doesn't care if his employees slave a little longer* If Ipe is only incrementally heavier than teak - the end user won't know the difference - heck, if you're buying teak you're ready for the weight factor - in fact many teak buyers think weight means quality* If I'm creating a product line encompassing good/better/best (cedar being good, teak the best, I need an intermediate outdoor wood - the Ipe happens to fit the price point void - and better than mahogany..how can one sleep selling mahogany? I think the public is mahogany-adverse at this point. And I haven't seen any "certified" mahogany. (Then there's a lot of low-cost Asian hardwood traditionally used indoors but recently marketed in outdoor furniture - real crap, I've experimented. Then there's Brazilian Cherry - more indoor wood).How do you respond now?..thanx. All comments, criticisms, witticisms welcomed.
Brook,
I really don't understand what your issue is. Ipe is what it is. If it works for you use it. If it doesn't, don't use it.
Just one further comment. Ipe is not "incrementally" heavier than teak. It is much heavier. I have seen people express absolute astonishment (displeasure) at the weight when trying to move an (otherwise normal-looking) ipe chair.
Rich
There's really no issue - I'm not sold either way on Ipe. But a decision has to be made with the givens. The weight factor is a clear tough one, however. We do a heck of a business in UPS shipments - I fear the damage factor. Anyway, thanx for your input.
I would go with cypress, it weathers like teak, it's very decay resistant (not as much as teak, nothing is) it's just a little lighter than teak, it's domestic and relatively inexpensive.
Check it out !C.
Edited 12/22/2006 6:16 pm ET by citrouille
Thanx but we're already selling cedar. We need 2 additional price points -- cypres would duplicate the cedar price point.
Just FYI - any outdoor Ipe furniture you make is going to weight a ton. I built a couple of chaise lounge chairs (Norm's design) out of it and each one realistically takes 2 people to confortably carry it. It's also a bear to work with. On the plus side, they look good and nobody's going to steal them (at least not by theirselves). I primarily went with the Ipe because the cost was a lot less than teak. Finishing or glueing the stuff can be problematic as well.
http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/at.asp?webtag=fw-knots&guid=08AC294A-0BDB-4CF5-8778-F27E6CAD1B59&frames=no
If you build it he will come.
On another post I saw someone reducing their product dimensions to accommodate the weight factor - I might do that on some of our product line. re: gluing my Asian guys use a 2-part waterproof glue used for humid conditions... there's a ton of gluing in our line - what problems in volume would you predict, and why?re: bear to work with -- in what way.. I don't want to surprise anyone..like to give them heads up
Edited 12/22/2006 9:23 pm ET by brookbend
Well my experience is on a small scale (not production and no access to state of the are glueing machines), so take it for what it's worth.
I had problems getting Marine Adhesive-Sealer (that Norm Abrams had no problem using on his teak versions) to cure. It didn't matter whether the surfaces were freshly machined, wiped with acetone, or no acetone wipe. Ditto on Titebond II. I've read others have had good luck with GOOD epoxy (West, System 3, Raka, etc.) but the 5-min epoxy didn't fare any better either. I ended up pinning most of the joints on my chairs with 3/16" brass rod then filed and sanded the pins smooth.
I didn't use any finish on the chairs, but on a picnic table I had some finish problems on some Garapa wood which my local supplier recommended as a close relative of Ipe when they happened to be out of 2x6 Ipe. I ended up using Sikkens Cetol after reading a lot of recommendations in WW forums for finishing Ipe and followed instructions to the letter. Two of the 9 boards just refused to let the finish cure on it until I set them outside in bright sunlight for 2 days - which is supposed to NOT work according to the Sikkens instructions.
For machining, tearout is a major concern at least for routing. A bigger shaper bit might do better. It's a bit on the brittle side. The stuff is also so dense and tight grained it's extremely difficult to determine a grain direction (if there even is one) so that you can try to avoid router tearout by switching to a climb cut. You're also going to wear out bits and blades fairly quickly too. I went through 2 brand new Highland Hardware Woodslicer bandsaw blades on the chairs. They were totally spent after cutting the chair parts. I think 3 router bits were retired to the scrap heap too. Pilot holes for screw are an absolute must too or you'll just snap the head off the screws.
I wouldn't rule out using it again as I do like how it looks, but I'd have to give it a lot of thought first.
If you build it he will come.
Sounds like fun. re: Titebond II Naughty boy - you know you're not supposed to use yellow glue for outdoors...our shop motto is: if it cleans off your hands it's not waterproof.re: downsizing my dim's As I look at my product line, I can't see too much opportunity... the visual would start to look anorexic.. I mean how can you reduce a 1" slat? Kind of ridiculous. Weight can be problematic for shipping UPS ground, but not common carrier on skids. This I worry about. I'd also be inclined to state the weight of all our products in our catalog. We want to replicate all 20 products exactly in 3 different wood species...giving a 3-tier pricing strategy ranging from cedar to teak.Would you take a look at http://www.brookbend.com and see if any designs might be real tough to make for any reason.
If you're still seriously contemplating Ipe, I really dont think you're going to get the answers you're looking for (good or bad) without just biting the bullet and making a few pieces. Take a couple of your designs and a stack of Ipe boards and have at it. Use whatever tools and bits you'd be using for a production job and see if you're able to shape the stuff to your satisfaction. Take notes as to when you're forced to change bits/blades (smoke or blueing will be a pretty clear indicator here) and factor that into your manufacturing costs. Take a stack of scrap pieces and try out various glues and set up a test to measure which ones work and which don't. Then do the same for testing out various finishes. Then weigh the pieces when finished and see what that does to your shipping costs. You might also want to factor in medical benefit costs for any of your employees that have to lift the stuff. There are sure to be a few back injury claims. If you decide not to pursue the Ipe, you'll end up with a few one-of-a-kind pieces when you're done. Stick them on eBay as collectors items and watch the bidding frenzy begin. I'm not sure what other input I can give you other than Good Luck.
If you build it he will come.
Thanx, Doug and others. I gave up. Between creating a nightmare in Asia plus the lifting by UPS (I find it impossible to lift a 100 LB box, of the shape and size of our products, by 1 person..that's the smaller of our boxes) it's a crazy idea. Too bad because the toughest thing is finding a stable, hard wood for outdoor designs when overlapped by a pricing requirement.Anyone experienced with Brazilian cherry? The fact that there's much more of it sold, suggests it's better from several considerations. Would like feedback on that, thanx.
Have you conidered lyptus? My son is a custom builder working mostly in the coastal areas of Eastern Central Florida (New Smyrna Beach, etc.) and is quite experienced in the use of ipe for outdoor projects, but he has lately started using lyptus in applications like deck furniture. I guess the jury is out on long-term benefits, but the claims for it are impressive. It's a whole lot more friendly than ipe.
I cant be a pioneer. The public, including me, has not heard of lyptus.
Actually, "Lyptus" appears to be the trade name, not the wood. The wood is either Eucalyptus, which people know about, or an offshoot species of latter. Eucalyptus patio furniture is sold at the same price point as cedar, which we already sell. An price-overlapping product I'm not seeking. Thanx anyway.
Yes, I believe "Lyptus" may be a trade name of Weyerhaeuser. However, it is an intentional hybrid of two types of eucalyptus trees selected from the 600 or so types occuring naturally and was selected for its working properties. It has been available around here for about ten years and is becoming a popular hardwood substitute (furniture, flooring, etc.). Its density is between cedar and mahogany. As for production applications, I'm sure it meets most criteria for machining and finishing, but I'm not certain it meets criteria for outdoor/exterior longevity. My son has used it for custom deck furniture with no callbacks so far. Maybe your suppliers can be more specific in relation to your business.
Edited 12/23/2006 2:53 pm ET by Jimma
That Lyptus may actually be good. But I found something better - Jarrah wood. Jarrah patio furniture has been sold for 30 yrs in B&M patio stores in USA...by a very formal company called Jensen-Jarrah. Any wood that's endured the B&M store sales channel is already a certified ok wood. The B&M stores eliminate wood which causes returns or other customer service headaches. Best - Jarrah comes from Australia, much closer to where I make furniture. In fact I'd be surprised if there's not a distributor right near my plants in Asia. This way I can make very small orders, less commitment and risk. I'd have to choose wood with a history over some incremental improvement in a wood lacking history.
Saw some Jarrah patio furniture myself last week when shopping at a local store (Firehouse Casual Living). Looks good. Anyone know what that stuf runs per board foot in the Southeast?
Talk to these guys:http://www.moxontimbers.com/contact.htm
Soooo...you design these pieces and have them made in Asia (China?) then shipped here for sale cheaper than most could even buy the wood for?If that is indeed the situation, and we're helping you with such business, then I find that despicable.Just MHO.
Well, I guess I'll tell Thomasville and Ethan Allen to shut down. That way they can make the one-up guys like you more competitive and lay off 10,000 while they're at it. Those brands' retail prices were not reduced by Asian labor. The latter enabled them to stay in business. Consequently, their advertising budgets (and mine at one time) directly or indirectly support Taunton publications, and others, allowing forums like this to flourish.I didn't know the custom business was intended to go head to head with production products. If you're trying to do that, then everyone reading this is either laughing or praying for you.
Of course I'm not competing with production, that would be foolish. Perhaps a production shop would like to attempt to compete if the rules were equal? I just look down upon those who buy from Asia and sell here. I believe the "global market" concept is being abused and it will ultimately be the downfall of this country. That's JMHO.You profit, China profits and the consumer saves a few bucks because he is too ignorant to understand how he is hurting himself by purchasing this stuff from you. I just wanted to voice my opinion about others on this forum helping to essentially send even more jobs to Asia through their ideas.I really don't want to get into an argument about this because I know the bottom line is profit. I know it's a losing battle for the few of us that still care.Have a nice Christmas.
Unfortunately local, regional, national and global economies are not as simple as you presume. Dont forget that Unemployment is at increadibly low numbers, consumers (thats you and me) have more purchaseing power than ever before (especially for luxury items) and over all our economy is doing well. Yes, the dollar is dropping but that is not a bad thing. It is a natural pressure that our economy needs to ballance itself.
If we followed your idea of strong labor force economics we would still be buying our horse shoes from the local black smith and stocking up on supplies to survive the Winter. When groups (states, nations, whatever) trade resources we all benefit from the exchange. What good would our technological advances be if we didn't sell them to others? What good would Brazil's agricultural strength be to us if we didn't take advantage of it.
Do you really want to artificially subsidise dead business models so you can see "Made in America" on the furniture in stores. Even though those practices would result in prices that we couldn't afford? That would put us back into what you likely think of as the "good ol' days". When things were made in America, but the poor and middle class lived in empty apartments. No TV, couch, bed matress, diswasher, carpet, phonograph, cabinets, dresser. Really those days weren't all that good.
Just think about it.Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
Mudman, I really don't want to argue because as I said it's a losing battle. But allow me to explain that I, being from Michigan see things a lot different than the rest of the USA. I grew up near Grand Rapids which used to be the furniture capital of the country. Now where did all that work go? And should I describe to you the economy of that city now as compared to 40 years ago? use your imagination... Now, our entire state is in the process of a slow, painful death just as Grand Rapids has experienced because of our auto industry sending thousands of jobs out of this country. Flint went to hell. Saginaw is on it's way and soon our entire economy will collapse into poverty in this state. Everyone living here knows it, even those directly responsible for it happening. Yes, national unemployment is down, but not in Michigan. Yes, you are doing well, but at our expense? Perhaps. No, we that are LOSING JOBS to Asia have less buying power as a result. Come see for yourself. This is a sensitive subject to me (us) and I'd like all to know how it affects others in this country when they knowingly purchase such items from Asia. At least buy from the same continent for crying out loud...Have a nice Christmas.
I agree that people in your comunity lost jobs as a result of overseas manufacturing. I have friends who worked in IT during the Y2K boom. After the job market settled and technology changed they had to change jobs. A good friend of mine is an absolute electronics genius. And I mean old school electronics, he can figure complex LRC tanks and and design band separating amplifiers with a pen and paper. But those skills are no longer marketable. He got laid off and knew that he was unlikely to ever get another position like he previously had. The best job he could find was as a cell phone repair tech. So what did he do..... he took some classes did some research and now he is involved in realtime GPS tracking/ satilite cominications technology. It is ground breaking work. They are developing technologies that no one has seen before. But guess what.... In 5 or 10 years all that stuff will be made in Korea or China, and the company he works for will make even more money as a result. That profit will drive research into expanding the horizons, or they will hold on to a dieing technology and go bankrupt.
Yes the mass produced furniture industry is dead in America. So all those people who loved working in the dangerous, dusty, noisy, hot or cold factories standing in front of a 3,000 pound machine that makes a part all day for hourly wages are going to have to find a new career path. I would sugest keeping away from the auto industry as well, look at Flint and GM.
Where you see loss and hardship others see oportunity. I know that I do.
And no, I dont believe you have less buying power. How many cars do you have, how much is your Internet conection and computer? How big is your TV, do own a house? Do you have a decient collection of tools? My point is that poor is not what it once was.
Another aquaintence/ customer of mine was a top (the top I believe) exec for GM's parts production and distribution world wide. He has a very real picture of the industry. I have had a lot of interesting conversations with him about these issues.
If I understand you correctly you would probably like to see the goverment block or slap high tarrifs on imports to keep jobs in house. That way all our products will be proudly made buy our countrymen. Through these strong Nationalist policies the govenment can insure that the good working people will have fair wages and secure jobs and food on the table. There will be no homeless and unemployment will be a thing of the past.
Does that sound familular? Lennon, Stalin and many other arived at simular conclusions. I am not saying that protecting our industries amounts to comunisim. But the policies of sate and national industry retention have never worked. Not in USSR, Spain, Italy, Cuba or America. Even to most powerful European economies realised that open economies are benificial, look at the EU.
I am not trying to make you happy or content that Wall mart is offering nice looking furniture for a couple hours wages. Of course that will always remind you of the industry that once supported your family. I wish I caould build homes... but that industry has been taken from the small contractors as well. The huge developments in my area are a constant reminder of that. But I know that America is not going to collapse. We live in the most amazingly dynamic creative popultion in the world. Heck we are the most Altruistic society as well. For every Exon Valdez, Pinto, Enron or any other deciet and wrond doing there are thousands of individuals pushing for aide, reform, repairations and justice. There is not another place like America. Something like patio furniture being made overseas or even the colapse of the entire US auto industry will make us stronger. Trying to fight the tides and flow of economics never works.
So you lost a good job that you obviously enjoyed, but what do you have? More importaintly what can you DO?Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
Glad we have an historian viewing all this. Your answer was broader than mine, above. Interesting: my business NEVER sent jobs to Asia.In "Chair City" (Gardner,Ma - the oldest furniture town in America, home of Nichols & Stone) 5 yrs ago we got a price for producing our line. The cost was equal to the proposed retail. There's no way anyone's gonna buy our $300 chair for $750, even if you could convince Americans to spend more for domestic made. Ok 10%, maybe 15% more..but not more than double. Our line never had a chance here. In fact for 2 yrs we struggled and gave the line to 1 or 2 small shops that didn't realize billing $20/hr was a foolish endeavor. Now what kind of a living is that? Long hours, dusty..you bet. Occasionally we had some metalworking in the line - axles, wheels, small parts. Those were made in machine shops that were hit a lot worse than woodworking. Made me cry to see 10 machines in 1 shop - idle, the owner scurrying around running the business with a secretary. There are 2 kinds of men: businessmen, and men in business. Most are the latter. The former see things coming and react. The others wait till it's too late. Look at all the other businesses that got creamed historically: general medicine and commercial fishing. Nothing to do with Asia there.
Mud, The rich get richer and the poor will get poorer when there's no jobs left for them. Have a Merry Christmas
Thats a nice pat response that has little meaning. For example "Only the strong survive", "Its lonely on top".
If I take your response literally it is obviously false. Again look at the unemployment rate in America then compare it to China's. You talk about how dire things are but certaintly things are better now than "the good ol' days".
I know that you don't want to debate this issue, you stated that in the begining and you have offered little in the way of explination or elaboration. I just hope you can look around you and see that things are not so bad. People walking around grumbling about how bad thing are then to live a self fulfilling prophecy.Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
Ok Mud, " I just hope you can look around you and see that things are not so bad."No, I can't do that. Come up here and look for yourself. Seriously; fly into detroit Metro, stay at our house for a week and meet a few dozen people I know that are very much affected by offshore manufacturing. Foreclosures are at an all time high. 2nd highest unemployment rate in the country. We are shipping in Coats for Kids from other states because there are so many coatless kids around this state... The largest surplus of workers registered for unemployment in Michigan right now are guess what: skilled trade. And have you seen how many lay-offs are scheduled for 2007-2008 around here? I can't even remember the total, but it's over 100,000. Yeah, things are great because you say so.As a former machinist that broke out of that trade into something else through the help of the GI Bill, I must emphasize to you that it isn't as easy as you think to learn new job skills and just switch careers...especially if you're living on unemployment like several of my past co-workers are. Maybe they weren't the best and safest jobs, but they were jobs.How can you say things aren't that bad here when you're not here? I'm not telling anyone how things are in their local.This is interesting also: china opens the WORLDS LARGEST MALL http://www.travelindochina.com/NewsFeature.asp?NewsFeatureID=227
We just had a mall CLOSE in Livonia. Isn't that interesting.Who do you think paid for that China mall?Wether foreign manufacturing is responsible is yet to be determined. It's like politics where you can never get a straight answer around here about who is responsible. It all depends on who you ask. I don't know for sure, but foreign manufacturing didn't help the matter. But DO NOT tell me things aren't that bad. Maybe not where you are, but this is a whole nother world up here brother. This entire state was built on manufacturing. Imagine if your biggest industry (oil?) moved out of Texas, and I told you everything is going to be just fine. You'd be pretty pissed also.Now..............I stand by my statement about the poor getting poorer because there is no jobs for them. You CAN NOT train a 50 something factory worker to be a cell phone repair specialist without investing a lot of money to do so. We can argue this around and around but the bottom line is undeniable: when jobs leave this country, it hurts somebody at the expense of making somebody else more money. Otherwise known as: "the rich get richer and the poor get poorer".I've never wanted to be more wrong in my life. But unfortunately from my (our) perspective I'm not wrong. If I'm wrong then that's a good thing. If you're wrong then it's essentially the collapse of our national economy when IMO is not a good thing. I really hope Michigan isn't a micro-economic model of what will happen to the rest of our country.
Two points i feel need to be added to this and then i will stay out of this as i dont think this is directly related to wood working.
Point one, I have friends in DC, in Boston, In Florida, In California, In Washington state, In Louisina, In Ohio, In West Virginia, In Colorado and in Chicago and other places. All of them say the same thing. The econimy is going great in this country but not so good where they are. Funny that. No matter where i go or who i talk to as long as they are the more typical working stiffs with the 8 to 5 jobs and bring home less then 100K a year they all think things are not going very well in thier area but just over thier (another state, another region another what ever) the economy is doing well, untill i talk to someone from that spot.
Point Two I have an older brother that is into the import buisness he was a senior VP at a VERY large Drug store chain and now he is with another company that imports product to the US. He has been involved with the import of goods to the US for a LONG time. He was on the board of directors of a large port also, so he is pretty big into this and He thinks things are going great. (for him they are) But then again he plans to retire at the age of 54 with enough money invested to make more money from his investments then he did while he is working. So in short he has NO idea what the average Joe is enountering and i will bet you dollars for donuts that the Guy you know from GM has no idea either. To hear my brother talk about the way the world is you should buy your t shirts from a company that sells them for $25 plus a pop (plan color t shirts) and spend your vacation over seas. Personally i cant afford that and i dont think most can either. So someone that spends more mony on a T-shirt then i spend on a good shirt is not a good pick to be telling me how the free trade is helping. The reality is that thier are a lot more peaple making very low wages in the world then thier is of us and the simply numbers mean that we will not bring Mexico/China/Where ever up to our standards of living befor the bring us down to thiers. It is like water the economy will average out over any area that has free trade it. To bad everyone thinks that somehow this will make us all rich.
Doug Meyer
PS I dont work in the auto/furniture/skill trades just so you know.
Doug,
I'm not seeing your point #1. I mean, you're in Westland and you live 45 minutes from me. You aren't seeing what I see?Where are we ranked in unemployment? 2nd
Where are we ranked in GDP? 48th
What's our largest surplus of unemployed? Skilled trades
What's Michigans economy based on? Manufacturing
Where are most manufacturing jobs going? Out of countryYou don't see a trend there? If not, then you're living in a shell that most in Michigan have come out of. Read the news...http://www.bea.gov/bea/newsrel/gspnewsrelease.htm
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/laus.nr0.htm
Many years ago China was the leader in technology and got behind because it shut itself off from the rest of the world. There are some jobs which have vanished. That has been going on over a long period of many years. Very few people repair wagon wheels today. People were afraid when the car came along. However, it produced more jobs. Things do change. We no longer have a car that will only go 40,000 miles and get 10 miles per gallon. The air in Los Angeles no longer burns your eyes. Carpenters use nails guns rather than just a variety of hammers and nails. The need for highly skilled workers has increased. In fact there is a huge need for engineers and scientists. There is a huge demand for doctors and those in the medical field. We need anyone in the natural sciences. It is the semi-skilled people which have been effected the most. We need people in math, and science badly. The last few years I was in construction I hardly did any work for myself because so many other contractors wanted me to do work for them. John Deere Tractor in Waterloo, IA has a huge need for highly skilled workers. They are bringing many from other countries here to do engineering on a contract basis and the engineers are paid as well as Americans. The U.S has some of the best construction practices in the world. Students getting out of school in construction management are the highest paid of anyone graduating with a B.A. Placement is near 100%. In a ten year period that will far surpass any engineer in coinstruction. It is the semi-skilled workers such as machine operators who are out of work. Some of the machines today are capable of producing parts consistently to the nearest micron. There is a need for those who can do non-destructive evaluation of parts especially in composites. A few months ago I designed a part and produced it on an NC machine. It took about 8 hours to run. Years ago it could have never produced in less than one week with near the accuracy as I was able to produce. It was designed and run on the computer then the part was made on the machine. I worked out the bugs and feeds and speeds on the computer first. That file could have been sent to China and produced. Here there is a big demand for people who can produce such parts on the computer. I know a man in his forties who was going back to school because he was a machine operator and did not know how to design those parts he produced. He was recently hired by a company to do what he was trained at the university to do and is making more money than when he was a machine operator. There is a lot of information at http://www.bls.gov/
Thanks for reinforcing my point about the working class being screwed. We'll just turn all of these 50 something factory workers into Doctors, Engineers and Scientists and everything is going to be just fine.
Edited 12/27/2006 8:43 am ET by Mumda
I think you missed my point. The workers are not doing well and the economy is NOT doing well (as far as the working class guy goes) but the perception for some reason is that the economy is only bad locally. It is bad in Detroit locally. It is bad in Chicago Locally etc. Everyone thinks the ecomey is bad where they are but ok where they are not. I think if we all start talking to each other we will realise the economy is bad everywhere. I wonder if this is an attmept to keep the economy going. We all know that the worst part of a depreation is when everyone quits spending and then the whole thing dies so if everyone thinks things are only bad in thier area then maybe we will still spend. But it is strange that everywhere i talk to peaple they think the economy is bad in thier area but ok else were.
My point being that it is bad EVERYWHERE we only think it is ok where we are not (grass is alwas greener on the other guys lawn).
Doug Meyer
I'm sorry to beat you up Doug. I did miss your point and it was no fault of yours. I realize now when I read your post with learning glasses on instead of defensive glasses then I do see your points.Also sorry about dragging you into a non-woodworking discussion...
Not a problem, you just hit the same button my Brother has been hitting all last week. He was up for the Holiday and stay with my folks and I and i promised my mother that I would not get into an big arguments with Him over the holiday (I said it was my first gift to her for Christmas) so I have been on a low simmer for a few days on the same subject.
WAY off subject have you seen Jib Jab's Big Box Mart video? It if great and slams WallMart big time on this exact issue of sell cheep and ship the jobs over seas. Very funny take the time to find it if you have not I think it is in thier archive and you have to look for it now but it is still available as of a few weeks ago.
Doug Meyer
http://www.jibjab.com/originals/originals/jibjab/movieid/122THAT WAS AWESOME!!All my typing could be summed up in that 2 minute video, thanks so much!As a side: I live in Fowlerville and they just announced this Fall that we're getting a Super WalMart even though there is one in Howell which is only 8.7 miles away...unbelievable...
Yeah this video is a classic
Doug Meyer
I am not putting down anyone down except the unethical greedeaters. I do agree with you in many ways and have been an advocate for ethical treatment of workers for years. I was fired from a job because I would not be unethical and cheat customers. I asked the state to do something about it and they did not. They told me that they found me hard to believe. I told them to interview each employee and they would find out. Eventually they believed me but did nothing to the company.
Perhaps you may know that over the years a number of technologies have been bought and killed by American companies. Sometime read the books Technology Lost and The World Is Flat. I believe it is largely due to the unethical practices of American companies after the buck and at the expense of cheap labor to line their pockets with their greed. When Americans shunned Deming the Japanese embraced him. When Americans did not want the VCR the Japanese started manufacturing them. When American companies had planned obsolescence in their vehicles the Japanese did differently. You should be mad at the greed eaters who own American companies. My brother who has been working on cars for about 30 years tells me I can buy two Fords or Chevys or one Toyota. Why? Why is Safeway grocery store gone? Who do you think is buying the illegal drugs coming across the border and keeping the money? A friend of mine who worked at a cotton gin in Yuma, AZ told me the story of when they were going to start a drug testing program that the boss was fired because the group of farmers who managed the gin were afraid that it would mean they would have to dismiss several workers. So instead they fired the boss who advocated cheaper insurance and get drugged employees out of the plant or get them help. It was the farmers who wanted their money instead of ethics. What you are seeing is a fact that has been happening since the beginning of time. Look at the issues surrounding slavery--stealing people from other countries. The poor have always worked for the rich. Americans want the benefits of socialism without socialism. They do not want to pay high taxes but want the benefits of security. They want American wages yet will go to WalMart and buy a foreign made item for less. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. Why do we have so many Enrons today. Why are Americans embracing Martha Stewart. Take a look at who the role models are of the young people. When was the last time you saw a scientist as a role model? If you look back since the invention of the printing press you will see the same thing you are against has happened to other countries. It happened here too. We brought in scientists from other countries. Should we not have done that at the expense of the other countries. The U.S. has not always been the leading nation in technological advances. If the Jefferson had not invited top scientists from other countries we would not have been the leader then. Is it only when it happens to us that it is bad? Historically it is a fact that both countries benefit from that economically. If we did not advance we would still have slavery. Anytime there is advancement there is change which means changing jobs. The U.S. has the highest standard of living and the most wealth it has ever had. I can remember when unemployment was much higher than it is now. Where I grew up unemployment at one time was 16% and I could always get a job while others sat at home watching TV. There was a time when I worked in the fields and went to school while others were unwilling. The farmer told me that he had been having a harder and harder time getting labor over the years. I worked fast and hard to make the most I could in a day. The saw how fast I worked that they started checking my work more closely. Yet they found I did good work. When the American people want things cheaper and are willing to pay their teachers little then what they get is what they are getting now. The average student who studies to be a teacher quits teaching within three years because of low pay. When I was a kid my dad made the same wages as a starting teacher. Today that same job starts at 70K. A starting teacher makes less than 1/2 of that. There are cities which cannot get doctors and police officers because they are unwilling to pay what they should in those areas. Those public servants will not come because the cost of homes is so high. Some communities have done something to remedy that problem though. Sometime I wish you could visit a high school and talk with some teachers. Years ago I decided to quit my business in construction and teach high school to teach and influence students. I had one of the top programs in the U.S. When I was teaching I got tired of hearing from parents that I gave their children too much homework. Never once did I ever hear that from those who were immigrants. It was the immigrants who invited me to their homes at the end of the year to thank me. Seldom did an American family invite me over. Yet, it was my students who year after year won the competitions. Still American parents complained while the immigrants thanked me. The area of the U.S where I live now has been the number one growth area in manufacturing in the U.S. two years in a row. They are not hiring machine operators. They are in need of people who are highly skilled. Basically the machines run themselves. There is a huge demand for vegetable pickers in AZ and on the west coast. When I was a kid I was one of the pickers and I was born in the U.S. Across the U.S. many colleges are down in enrollments. The fact is that it costs American companies more to manufacture good in the U.S. than in most other countries. There are a lot of unethical things happening by American companies in other countries. How would have liked to have had Bhopal in your back yard? It is not about the American worker but about $$$$$$
I only had a minute to skim over this great email of yours but this caught my eye: "I believe it is largely due to the unethical practices of American companies after the buck and at the expense of cheap labor to line their pockets with their greed."I'd like to add to that something about the American people wanting everything CHEAP!!!I'll read your post again later (maybe twice) when I have more time.Thanks
Please keep in mind that it is NOT just American companies. It is pretty much all companies. I can point you to countless companies that are from off shore that do the same thing in the name of profit. It is the world we live in today if we can grab something now who cares about tomorrow? That is why companies that make good profit can get their stock slammed because some guy thinks they should make more profit even if this means hurting themselves in the long run. That is also why people have mortgages on house for twice what they are worth.
As for unemployment I am not sure this is a good statistic to use. First off I don't think they keep track of this as well as they should as (at least around here) it is mostly based on who is collecting unemployment and if you go off the books because you are unemployed to long you may get lost in the count. The local government does not keep running tabs on who is back to work that way. Also if you take 100,000 people working for the big 3 making 60K a year and replace them with 110,000 people working for wall mart to the tune of 20K a year this is NOT an improvement even though it lowered unemployment. And around here and in a lot of areas the pay is just not keeping up.
As for the teacher not making enough is it that the teacher is under paid or is it that the other guy is over paid? Although around here I can tell you a lot of teachers are doing very well think you or they would not be taking trips to Europe and driving expensive cars, (and I know a lot of teach by the way) This is a pet issue but personally I cant afford to double the taxes I pay no matter how much they are making, maybe we should go back to classes of more the 18 to 20 students then I could pay fewer teachers more money.
I went to work for a computer company out of collage in 1995 making 22K a year. The guy that hired me in and I talked a bit over the years and he pointed out that he hired his first employee when he became a manager for the company we worked for and paid the guy 21K a year and that we had almost the exact same back ground. The only problem was he hired that guy in 1982. In 1982 21K a year was not bad in 1995 it was just barely enough to pay the rent and keep food on the table. IF you look around you will see that a LOT of jobs are not making much more today then they did 20 plus years ago. You just have to compare the same job. First year teacher fresh from school in 2006 vs 1st year teach fresh from school in 1986 say.
The reason no one notices this is that we all gain experience and thus are making more then we did 20 years ago. But it would be interesting to compare your pay to what the guy with your experience made 20 years ago. This does not hold true for all jobs and a lot of Medical and management type jobs (two name two) have gone up but for the working guy it holds true a lot of the time. For instance I was making a couple years ago close to what my boss made when he had my same basic job I did, to bad he had the job 30 years before me. (yes we had similar backgrounds) Funny thing is he did not understand why I thought I was underpaid. Please note that I was being paid well for my job compared to what the going rate is problem is the pay had not kept up with the cost of inflation.
I had a buddy of mine that did the exact same job as my older brother had while he was in collage and they made the exact same amount only thing is my brother had the job 15 years before my friend. This is the issue that is facing the country. The reason that you can't get cheep American labor is that you can't live on it. When a job gets to the point that no one can live on what people are being paid to do it then that job will not be done by your average person. And if you want to say that the guys that worked for my drywall contractor, who drove 8 in a mini van with all their tools, ladders and stilts (it looked like a clown car) and who ate a meal cooked over a broken heating element and who by their own admission lived 6 people in a two bedroom apartment are living I beg to differ.
Oh well I guess I will get off my high horse but I fear that we are in a place that will only get worse before it gets better and if the talks between Toyota and Ford go anyplace I think that the rest of the country will learn again what they leaned in the early 80's If the midwest area that have the big 3 go under it will eventually take the country with it. You can not put a couple hundred thousands auto workers out of a job then add in their suppliers and all the local businesses that the help support and not ultimately effect the rest of the country. Metro Detroit has a population of someplace between 2 and 5 million people (depending on what you call metro Detroit) and if the Big 3 went away the place would all go under in a year or two. What do you think that would to do the rest of the country? Keep in mind that we would not be buying anything and all the money we owe would go up in so much smoke.
It may take longer then it used to because the Big 3 are smaller but they are still a vary large chunk of the workforce and it will have an effect.
Well back to fun stuff like wood working.
Doug Meyer
Just a thought i had after looking over your line on your website. One, it's beautiful and really well thought out, and two you seem to have it covered. Do you really need 3 price points. A thorough cost-benefit analysis may show you don't need another one. What percentage of sales will go to each line, what percentage of sales for the "middle" line will come from the two you have now, will this line add sufficient sales to be profitable without adversely affecting sales and profitability of the other two, and what will do to your manufacturing, shipping, storage-warehousing, procurement, advertising costs, etc. ad infinitum. I can appreciate your wish to cover all the bases, but sometimes covering fewer choices is more effective. Better salesmen can do better with fewer choices. If I was as smart as I think I am, I'd be rich.
1. Adding 2 price pts wont increase advertising costs - it will leverage the annual visitors, however; the same photos are used..just change the copy..so you avoid the enormous costs and hassles with making new products2. I dont care if 1 wood species wins out -- let the best wood win. The only "problem" would be the customer upgrades from cedar and I make more money3. Many people request our line in teak - guess what - they dont buy, they're not compromising; a perspective: there are 800 formal patio stores in America. Guess how many sell softwood furniture... ZERO.4. Theres no investment in inventory since I'll build and import on order...yes, the time lag will cause some cancellations the first season..but its a net gain and preps me year #2 when financing will be better - there is absolutely nothing to loose5. Warehouseing: if I need more space at the height of season... it's available to grow into; additional whse help - $10/hr a no brainer6. Is a 3rd line between the cedar and teak prices necessary - ask me in 6 MOS; the teak market is very, very competitive so the 3rd line compensates for that while scaling the prices up gradually
Brookbend, I would wager that most of your potential customers are as unaware of ipe as they are of lyptus. It has been my experience that the “good, better, best” marketing technique is based as much on perceived value as actual value. The more “desirable” woods will bring higher prices regardless of your cost. So, pick a wood that you can market as “better” and do not worry that it costs the same as the “good”. It’s all in the sales. Then again, I’m a small fry in the business world; I know nothing of business at your level, so maybe take my advice with a grain of salt? Good luck and Merry Christmas! Chris
You are absolutely correct - and (if) Jarra wood costs the same as cedar I can charge more becuase Jarra is a hardwood. (My initial interest in Ipe -- it's already in the deck market big time..not a huge stretch into deck or patio furniture).
aaah, I was'nt aware of the use ipe in decks until I read it here. I have a mulberry tree in my backyard, I've read that it is an excellent outdoor wood, and its very attractive, but I have yet to see any for sale?
Dear Brookbend,
Let me see if I can offer you some info re: Ipe:
1) Workability: It is miserable to work with, as someone already noted.:
A. The dust is an awful yellow / green that stains everything and is very unpleasant to breathe.
B. The material is murder to work. It kills off carbide at an alarming rate and when routed, tends to burn. Sanding is just as fun.
C. I would put on par with aluminum in terms of cutting.
D. Pre drilling of all fasteners is a must, otherwise it will split or destroy the fastener.
1. No nail gun will shoot though it constantly, without splitting.
2. Screws: Again, think aluminum, pre-drill both pieces, plus countersink, but it will still shear off its share of stainless screws.
E. Get ready to buy a lot of drill bits...........and counter sinks, sawblades, etc.
F. Typically, I charge double the labor for Ipe over any other material based upon its "workability". I should really charge triple.
G. Gluing... It doesn't. Wiping the joint with Acetone and applying an epoxy works, sort of.
2) I have read about fishing boats being built out of it in Brazil. (Yikes!)
3) Weight:
A. Far heavier than teak. You won't have to worry about theft.
B. UPS? Better check your weight calculations as Ipe breaks 100 lbs pretty quickly.
4) Price point:
A. We always consider Ipe to be far and away the most expensive option based upon the labor. Thats based on twenty years of construction.
5) Alternatives:
A. Atlantic White Cedar. Very nice, much different than Western Red or that junk that passes for shingles. The tradition material used on Nantucket, wonderful to work with.
B. White Oak... not my favorite
C. Spanish Cedar ... Soft, but nice.
That's it. Merry Christmas!
John
John - that's hillarious...the alluminum metaphor, er, the reality.I don't think I could do that to my Asian friends. They don't have metalworking machinery.
Dear Brookbend,
I'm glad to be of assistance. You mentioned Asia as a labor pool. How about Bamboo? It's not a wood, I know, but really a grass. I have never seen anything other than rough work such as scaffolding, but it is light, strong, and could be interesting. Just a though.Best,John
bamboo - actually bamboo made a comeback about 2 yrs ago. maybe, never know...although it still has to be imported to malaysia, where I don't think it's indiginous.re: ipe after thinking, it's so heavy - 1.68x wt of teak... "with every chair get a free hand-truck" (and the hernia's on us).the ups guy can't even handle our cedar line without dropping it, frequently
Dear Brookbend,
OK, last suggestion:Black Locust.Best,John
ya, I saw the black locust discussions. you know the reason I sell cedar, not cypress - starting 4 yrs ago - is because even my neighbor knew what cedar was...
If you aren't machining it then Ipe is the way to go. It costs a fraction of Teak and looks great. Even if the shop charged more for the extra tool wear I can't imagine that it would be more than the cost difference of the materials. It is a LOT heavier than Teak, but depending on the design it may not matter. One way to figure out the weight difference is to figure the board feet and look up its weight.
I specialise in outdoor kitchens and Ipe is my wood of choice. I dont like machining it but it is very durable and it holds its colour better than anything else I have used. I finish with UV blocking deck stain. After sanding it dosent splinter and feels nice.
Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
There are many varities of teak, and grades. A lot of furniture from india is made from "Indian Oak", also known as teak. also they use a wood known as neem. Kind of like teak but more extreme color variations in the grain. You could probably out source the whole mfg, package to India and have it shipped here for $ .10 on the dollar. you just need a prtotype and a contact. I can't give sources, but I know its being done.
We're already doing all that supply chain stuff, at http://www.brookbend.com Thanx.
IPE is God's gift to South American railroad tie manufacturers.
I wouldn't wish that sh*t on my worst enemy.
Brookbend- I think that teak is wonderful. One other species that you might consider is Port Oreford Cedar. Very strong, Much harder and heavier than CAH Redwood or Canadian Western Red. Does not have near the color differences in Heartwood vs. Sapwood. It is also rated to last as long or longer than redw.or cdr. in a ground contact situation. It is blond in color and most everything that you see these days has a darker appearance. The machining is quite nice also. I run a Lumber plant and we are selling more and more of it where exposure to the elements is a factor.
thanks Just thought i would throw that in
You must be in Pac NW.... whre can I get a 40-ft container of it:
A&BTR, clears. Several dimension sizes - 6', 8' 10' etc lengths - need to pay $1.25 - $2.75 / mbf.
The heavier the wood the more water it will have in it for the same moisture content. Therefore it will tend to be affected by the sun and heat.
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled