Came across this from Christopher Schwarz’s blog. at http://blog.woodworking-magazine.com/blog/.
Karl Holtey’s blog:
http://www.holteyplanes.com/blog/
I found it the best look yet into how he does it.
They shur iz prity!
Boiler
Discussion Forum
Get It All!
UNLIMITED Membership is like taking a master class in woodworking for less than $10 a month.
Start Your Free TrialCategories
Discussion Forum
Digital Plans Library
Member exclusive! – Plans for everyone – from beginners to experts – right at your fingertips.
Highlights
-
Shape Your Skills
when you sign up for our emails
This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply. -
Shop Talk Live Podcast -
Our favorite articles and videos -
E-Learning Courses from Fine Woodworking
-
-
Replies
I particularly liked the photo with the bandaged finger. :-)
Thats a right handed mini gloved used for frogging as opposed to this glove not used for anything:)
A Holtey A1 panel plane is roughly $11,500 USD. Wonder if that includes VAT, shipping and handling? US import tariff 2.5%? How many Saudi princes are woodworkers?
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
That's all above my pay grade.
For those of us in the business, the cost is deductible but it might have to be amortized over a few years.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Interesting. I wonder what the IRS rules are for amortizing something that will last "forever". ;-)
7 years
Putting a $14K bench plane on a 7 year depreciation schedule would only rank second to Section 179-ing it in risking attracting the attention of some young and overeager IRS examiners. The whole discussion is silly. There's a difference in being "trapped the wetware of an accountant meme" and simply living in the real world.I drive across the country quite a bit. I frequently stop in at custom woodworking businesses and cabinet shops in small towns. I have friends who have made a living from woodworking for upwards of 30 years. Nobody that I've ever known or met uses $14K bench planes in production work.I would even dispute that they are art work. They are very nice and pretty, but art causes the human spirit to soar. You look at it or read it or listen to it and you feel invigorated by what new things that humans can achieve. WIth a bench plane you are talking about a very old design that does a very simple task - not anything new. Yes the craftsmanship is great. Yes they are put together with exacting precision. An yes you could certainly spend money on worse things. But the rest of all the hype is silliness.Ed "Snap out of it!" Harrison
Amen.
Plancher Fasciitis , hey??? Is that you Charles, dear chap?
I have something for you, and your current affliction and it goes like this:
"IF ABOUT TO EXPOSE ONESELF, BEST TO CONFIRM THE EXACT POSITION OF *RSE RELATIVE TO ELBOW.Philip Marcou
Sir philip,
Maybe the Plancher one has now moved on to building houses, furniture making being too mundane for his talents. Perhaps he is learning new ways to make a dog house?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Dogknows, your guess is as good as mine, Bob...Philip Marcou
Nope, the American way is to buy it as the last act of a dying business. Loose the dang thangs in Bermuda, and then file bankrupcy. Leave the banks to sort it all aout....
Morgan,
Who by the way has more contractors saying "Beat it to fit, Paint it to match" than you can imagine. Legendary my fren, you are indeed!
<!----><!----><!---->
-----------_o
---------_'-,>
-------(*)/ (*) http://www.EarthArtLandscape.com
Edited 7/4/2009 7:15 pm by AZMO
If this is the real genuine Zitan infill, that sounds like a bargain basement price.---
Chris Scholz
Dallas/Fort Worth, TX
Galoot-Tools
BB,
Holtey is the one guy who can help all woodworkers remain sane about purchasing planes. Lets say that one Holtey costs about $12,000 roughly. Lets estimate about the cost of one each of all of the planes that Lie Nielsen makes. I guess that they make about 40 different planes, and the average cost is $250.
If my numbers are in the ball park, then I estimate one could have his choice between one of each of the planes that Lie Nielsen has, or one Holtey plane.
WHich would make you more productive -- one Holtey plane, or one each of the LNs?
Have fun.
Mel
PS I hope someone does the homework on how many planes LN makes and how much the cost of one of each of them would be. Whatever it is, it is a bargain. Holtey doesn't make planes. He makes stuff that should go into museums as artwork.
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel, I don't understand why you are making this about price rather than the sheer beauty and elegance of the tool and a unique view of how he works. My post (the OP) was to lead others to a visual treat.It doesn't matter a wit what he charges versus what tom or dick or harry or anyone else charges. It's not about money, it's about elegance. If you used them, they probably would provide a unique experience but that's not why he makes them. As to museums: if you went through his blog, he states as much in that he believes most of his work is bought by collectors. Being productive has nothing to do with these planes. I think all the higher end tool makers here, make the best tool they can, to turn out a superior result compared to other manufacturers but I doubt if any consider productivity a factor. They could care less. It's not about price, it's about a craftsman. SimpleBB
Boiler,
Agreed. It's not about price. It's about craftsmanship.
I found it fascinating to read about the many processes he uses to create his planes. There's way more to it than meets the eye. I could never afford one of these planes, but that doesn't stop me from enjoying finding out how they are made.
In the end, he is making art - and very high end art at that. Who puts a price on artwork as it's being made? You just follow your passion and find out where it leads you. Thankfully, this is where art led a great planemaker. If you have appreciation for design and form, and function, this is, in my opinion, about as good as it gets. Beautiful stuff. I'm glad it is around to rest eyes upon. It is uplifting and inspiring, the way art should be..
Zolton If you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
I could never afford one either but even if I could it would never be used. Although, and he is the first to admit it, it is old technology and not of the more modern LV working planes, I'm not aware of any other planes being built at that level although I think Philip may be moving there faster and faster and who also does exquisite work. He does have some or maybe most of the equipment that Karl has. It may be also a matter of time commitment. I think the real difference on some is of showing vs. using. I can't afford Philip's either. I do want one of Philip's though. I do have aberrant thoughts of leaving my very old trusty Record #7.... but I'm taking medication for it.
It is about craftsmanship.
BB,
Would you not use a Holtey if you had one then? I think at bottom Mr H might be disappointed, even though he knows many of his wares end up in glass cabinets rather than workshops. (However, I have read posts on other forums from users who do have his planes and make cabinets with them). I believe he is very concerned to make his planes function as well as a plane can.
Would you, for example, not drive a Maserati if you owned one? Or ride madly down the lanes on a top of the range bicycle from Cannondale (about the price of a Holtey) should Santa bring you one for Christmas?
Now, when I am dictator (or emperor, whichever comes first) there will be a law agin collector-folk putting perfectly good tools into fancy cabinets just to look at. Owners will all be required to larn cabinet making. As they will be using the fine wares of Mr Holtey or even those better ones of Philip <G> the cabinets will have to be first-rate or they risk confiscation of them tools which shall be given to keen apprentices......
Lataxe, who will never understand collecting things just to fondle them in a dark and secret room.
PS Don't worry, I'm too lazy to become an emperor.
Sir L and Troy,I might have to try a swipe or two..
I am most respectful of my hand tools, even my old bedrocks and bung mashed Swans. I think I've put to too much into them to abuse them but when it comes to a Philip -maybe I would use it, but a Karl? Not sure. It won't be very long at all, considering how Philips plane have grown in beauty and in depth (like your new dreadnought) that they to will rise to the more show, less use level.Then again, what wood is there that rises to the level of having the audacity to offer itself for sacrifice to such planes as these? Failing such elegant woods, these planes wood have to remain under glass -- unless of course forced into service by maniacally wild shed dwellers.
It would be like -- well, like Odysseus watching the Cyclops eyeing his dinner.But then again, if I had the wealth or one or two Tarp funds...Now as to the Ferraris, I just can't fit in them anymore (lower back stuff) so they are relegated to the stable along with the upstairs Volkswagen. The Purdys -- well I'd drop dove with them in a New York Minute.
Yes, I would do a Purdy but I'm not sure about the beaters. One doesn't know what to do with 40-50 sweaty villagers after the hunt. As an American, I would think a buffet?As to being an emperor, it just requires practice like dovetails and I'm sure if you put your shed hat on you would see the way. We are pulling for you. Got to be better than your MPs. (they all own Holteys, Ferraris and Purdy's)BB
BB,
First we had Shoe appear nekkid behind his fish. Now you have found a pic of him retaining his demeanour with some sheep. At least I hope that is his intention; one cannot help but notice the gleam in his eye and the fact that he is gripping some kind of "toy". Poor wee lambs! Is it not an offense in Canook then?
***
Now, you may not realise it but accountants may have colonised your wetware with their pennypinch and miser memes. Here is a counter-meme: the worth of a thing does not consist of its monetary value but its utility in making one's life. So, when you have neutralised any acountancy traps or tethers you may find about your person and acquired that Marcou (or even a Holtey) perhaps you will find the inspiration of swooshing it increases life's pleasure by a significant increment?
Also, your cabinets will achieve that extra gleam and integration of form, as you must live up to the tool. :-)
Nivver put such a thing in a glass-fronted cabinet, by the way. Unsavoury types will only stroll back and forth gawping at it the while, before offering you a paltry sum to do an unspeakable act with it.
Lataxe, of the plane-vice squad.
You might be surprised at what a high percentage of Karl's planes see use, and heavy use at that. I happen to know someone that sells Karl's stuff, and I made the same comment ("who would use something like that..."). The answer was immediate - "most all of the customers".
Sir Lataxe Oh great emperor ( see how nice that sounds!!)I deeply resent the association with sheep, what you did not see was behind the oger was a young damsile in distress. ArG a wee tilt of the kilt.Local joke
3 lies of an Alberta Cowboy
1. I paid cash for that Chevy truck
2. I won this belt buckle riding rodeo
3. I was just helping that sheep out of the barbwire fence.
If I bought a Holtey the wee Colleen would use it to sell my skin to the blackmarket just before the divoice papers arrive.
They are undoublty above and beyond. Watching how they are made does impart value. Now I am going to ask the question, chicken and egg.So how do you make a tool with higher tolerance that the one used to make it?Or how do you make a metal lathe, with out a metal lathe, how did they make the first metal milling machine? Darwinian evoulution of tools. Idea's, therories (conspiricy included).This should start a flaming debate. First shot 'cross the pond.
Shoe,
Don't worry - in many parts of moorland Britain it is thought normal to have relationships with sheep - of many kinds and varieties. As far as I know, this has not resulted in a race of sheep-men who go around berating knitters or devastating one's lawn.
Mind, there are an awful lot of folk who herd up together and run about at the mere mention of a bogey-wolf. Also, they do make baa-ing noises when the sheepdawgs (I mean journalists) makes a barking sound .................
*****
Now, you ask that provocative question: "So how do you make a tool with higher tolerance that the one used to make it"? Shurely the best analogy is the crane, whereby a small lifting device is used to lift in and assemble a larger version of itself; which may then lift in and assemble an even larger crane, etc..
As each crane is built we may include not just larger but more precise or perhaps specialist elements, to make different sorts of crane, capable of various different (as well as heavier) "lifts".
Imagine all machinery as begining with basic items - levers, bolts, fulcrums et al. Imagine them initially made of crude materials (man-whittled wood, crudely-cast metal and simialr). As each machine is made crane-like to produce another generation of itself, the machines may evolve to become more complex, larger, more refined/precise, specialised for some esoteric task, etc..
As the evolving machines are used in real environments for real purposes, design-flaws will emerge and fall out of the constant flux of craning evolution that produces further machines. As the environment of engineering, building and all the other uses for tools develops and itself becomes more complex, new opportunities, competitors and demands will create more design "space" for machine varieties; but also winnow the survivors via processes such as the market, media, fashion and other cultural mechanisms.
There is, of course, parallel-and-connected evolution in the metaphysical world of technologists brains; and within their social & cultural milieau - the 5th dimension of design-space.
****
Of course, some lads will prefer there to be a Big Skyhook, in the form of a superhuman desert-dweller in the sky, who has already designed all these machines and simply pops them into the heads of various lucky humans, via an undetectable celestial telephone thang. :-)
Lataxe, pinching a Dennett analogy (cranes).
5th dimension of design? Expand please.
I like the crane analogy.
May be Philip can shed a thought or 2. I was thinking more along the line of micro measurements. ie. working between hundreds of and inch to ten thousands. First how to do it and then how to measure. I would think there would be a large pile of close but not good enough pile, compared to the one piece that made spec's.
Do Holtey and Marcou have a large pile of metal that just did not make the grade? Then once you have the piece right how do you make it repeatable?
Can I take a blade and chip breaker from one of Philips planes and put it in another plane same model and have it work as well in the first?Can you do the same with a LN or LV.?Or do I think to much? I would love to use a Marcou or Holtey. But I can't see that happening. Maybe behind the Pearly Gates there is a section of primo tools for us to use on the ideal piece of wood?
Shoe,
"May be Philip can shed a thought or 2".
I can. I am constantly shedding all kinds of things, not to mention hair.
"Do Holtey and Marcou have a large pile of metal that just did not make the grade?"------- Marcou does not , I don't know about Holtey but would guess that would be the last thing he would tolerate from a time and expense point of view .
"Then once you have the piece right how do you make it repeatable?"----There are dozens of ways to do that, including the use of CAD and computers to store information such as dimensions, tolerances, cutting lists etc. Prototypes can be made for reference ...
"Can I take a blade and chip breaker from one of Philips planes and put it in another plane same model and have it work as well in the first?"---- You can take a blade and it will fit another of the same model, yes. (On some models the blades are either interchangeable with Lee Valley planes or are actually Lee Valley Veritas A2 blades). You cannot take a chip breaker because I don't use them....
I would love to supply you with a Marcou: think about it, to use Mels reasoning, you could get two or three of mine for the price one of the others you mention (;)Philip Marcou
"Or how do you make a metal lathe, with out a metal lathe, how did they make the first metal milling machine? "easy peasy - just takes a huge amount of hand skill and time. A standard exercise for training old time machinests was making a surface plate. You just hand scrape three plates together so they all agree with each other. - result 3 flat surface plates. The first really accurate machine screws that were used in early scerw cutting lathes were all hand filed. What you do is wrap a spiral around a rod and file carefully. By using a very large diameter rod, and a fine thread any error is miniturized when the new hand file thread is used to reproduce normal diameter threads. Lathe and Milling machine ways used to be scraped by hand to get the required accuracy Joel
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com
That is what I was getting at, thanks.
So what did they use to scrape the metal?
How did they fiqure out the relative hardness of one metal over another?
How did they refine the metals with out the aid of and electron microscope and gas spectrograph.
How did they make a file or form a rod to start with? What era would this hand work to machine take place?When I pick up a batch of nuts and bolts I know 99% are going to fit. When did we move to the assumtion of quality era?Years ago I was reading about Henry Ford making parts that were interchangable vs one off's making mass production possible.So many questions to little brain space.
you ask a lot of questions that are too complicated to answer in a post. read the autobiography of James Nasmyth. that will give you an idea on how all of this was done. http://www.naesmyth.com/bioJoel
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com
Thanks for the link. I read a few pages. I bookmarked it for future reading.
Some interesting history then.
"You might be surprised at what a high percentage of Karl's planes see use, and heavy use at that."
I am not surprised but I am surprised at the widely held belief that planes of this calibre are not for use, or are made for collectors only. They are specifically designed for use. I couldn't think of many more soul destroying things than making such things for show only.
Some one else said that I have most if not all of the equipment that Holtey has. I wish this were true. I don't even have a proper mill, let alone anything run by a computer (gawd save me).Let me tell you that a heavy mill is a lot easier to run than a light weight "milling" attachment which is part of a small lathe such as I have. Short of being made by exclusive use of a file, hack saw and hammer my planes are truly hand made.I do have a surface grinder, but it so old and worn in the ways that it grinds about 11/2 thou concavity over a 12 inch length-but it does that consistently and I have ways (!) and means of countering this.I also have a lot of strange methods, tools, jigs, fixtures, adapted machines, mandrels,instruments and other means of making my planes without too much pain.
I think that certain folk are putting too much cyber babble or mantra repetition into the making of almost anything these days.Why?
Philip Marcou
Phillip,I was having a conversation with Brian Buckner one day at a Midwest Tool Collectors event and we were discussing many of the unorthodox methods we used in making planes. We both agreed that if someone were to enter our shops and watch us using some of these methods they would leave believing that we had totally lost our minds. (grin) It is amazing how many ways one can devise to do a very good job of certain processes while using the tools one has at their disposal. I believe this is what's called process engineering. Of course there are two versions of process engineering. One way is to figure out what tools need to be acquired to do the work, the other way as I mentioned is to figure how to do it with the tools one has at the ready. One way takes a large budget and increases overhead, the other way takes imagination and creativity. Imagination and creativity is usually fueled by a limited tooling budget. (grin)In the right hands both methods can produce some beautiful and functional tools.Ron Bresehttp://www.breseplane.comIf you're too open minded your brains will fall out.
Ron,
You are correct-and that is why us chaps with a few small machines are much cleverer than those with fat five ton milling machines complete with tooling, cnc,Jones and Shipman hydraulic surface grinder, Tos lathe etc etc.
Philip-the Green One.Philip Marcou
Philip,
YOu said to Ron:
"You are correct-and that is why us chaps with a few small machines are much cleverer than those with fat five ton milling machines complete with tooling, cnc,Jones and Shipman hydraulic surface rinder, Tos lahe etc et."I have to wonder about your advocoacy of using tools that are less than the best. As you said, when you do that, you have to be clever. Why not just part with a few hundred thousand dollars and get the best tools for making tools. As they say, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If one can use cheap refurbished tools and some cleverness to make nice planes, why not just use cheap refurbished planes and some cleverness to make great woodwork. Of course, that philosophy would put you out of business. I APPLAUD WHAT YOU DO AND WHAT YOU SAY. In other words, my approach to tools is exactly the same as yours. I get what I can afford, and I get them running well, and I do good work with them. No sense paying all that money for the BEST tools. I like your focus on cleverness, knowledge, and hard work rather than on the use of the best tools, whatever "best" means. After all, as you have found, buying those BEST tools can be prohibitively expensive. Your example has been one of the greatest influences in my approach to my selection and use of tools. I thank you for that. Actually your selection and use of tools for tool making is pretty much the same as Ray Pine's approach to selection and use of tools for woodworking. Get old tools, fettle them well, and use them with cleverness and skill. It is amazing the similarities amongst the folks here on Knots. You are truly a leader.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
You are barking up the wrong tree and not even in the right forest, and it is because you are galloping out of control on one of your favourite hobby horses, again.(;)(;)
I advocate the use of the best tools or machines one can afford- I do not advocate the use of cheap tools simply because they are cheaper than others. Getting a low cost high quality tool or machine is something else and if you are in for the "something for nothing game", then good luck and let's see the length of the success list....
No amount of fettling of a cheap mill drill or small mill attachment such as I have or Ron has is going to be a substitute for a proper milling machine such as Uncle K has and the same applies to many aspects of woodworking. Sure you can produce a thing but it doesn't mean that because you achieved this with cheap tools that it is the clever or correct way of doing things. So in this case the BEST tools for the job are those that are suited to it and make it easy to do- such as that fat mill, or that L. Nielsen plane which costs a bit more, as opposed to a Stanley.
In the case of Holtey vs. The Rest of the World he wins hands down because he has proper tools and machines for the job which enable him to include features which ordinary mortals can't imitate (well that is part of the recipe). Philip Marcou
Philip,
Great to hear from you. Sounds like you are in fine fettle. I hope business is good. Ray Pine introduced me to a Virginia chairmaker last year. I visited his shop. It is tiny. There is a lathe. The floor aroun the lathe is covered with shavings that are up to three feet deep near the walls. On the wall are a small selection of tools. All of the tools are old. None are shiny, except for the cutting edges. I am not sure that anything in the shop has changed in thirty years. BUT HIS WINDSOR CHAIRS ARE MAGNIFICENT.Decades ago, I was lucky enough to make the acquaintance of a man who refinished antiques for local antique businesses. I had read widely on how to do proper finishes -- new brushes, fresh varnish, "flow the varnish on in line with the grain", etc etc etc. Well, I watched this guy. He had a brush that looked like it had been through a few wars. He had a crusty old can that he poured his varnish into for application. He put the varnish on 'against the grain', and he pushed it around, and finally feathered it off with a gentle touch. Beautiful work, but he broke all the "rules". I asked him about that. I don't remember his exact words, but they were something like "Rules are for people who don't have skills." I remember watching my grandmother cook. She could go into anyone's kitchen, and whip up a great Italian meal with whatever bowls, tools, utensils, and ingredients she found. A novice cook probably has to have the exact ingredients called for by the recipe, and has to have his own carefully selected and honed utensils.SKILL is what it is all about. That is why you are one of my heros. You have developed and honed a great set of tool making skills. You are a Master. My guess is that you could go to any tool makers shop and make great tools with whatever tools you found. It is always good to talk with you, my friend. You not only have great skills, but you have the attitudes of a Master. You are always able to rise above the particulars of a situation. You are always able to see light where others see only darkness. Others get caught up in details, but you are always able to see the bigger picture. Like Adam Cherubini and Charles Sanford, you are always able to rise above petty squabbles and see what is really going on. We are all very lucky to have you here.
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hi Philip
Thanks for responding. I understand the shedding thing!
You have answered one question about blades and sorry about the chip breaker comment.Being a shoemaker one has to be resourceful, and I have had to make the odd tool to get a job done. Also since it is a dead trade finding proper materials and accessories can lead you to all sorts of head scratching.I was doing one job and needed a shoulder plane. I didn't have the time or money to order the new LV. I made one. is it pretty no, does it work, well not bad. if I made another could I do better, yes. Later at a garage sale I found a Stanley 180 shoulder plane under $5.00. cleaned it and sharpened the blade and dang that is a good tool.I have only bought 1 plane back in the 70's a Stanley #5 because it was the only one avalible. I have a nice collection of all sorts of planes and other hand tools bought at estate sales etc. few people realize the worth of many of these old tools. Also when you see huge chips under the blade, nicked blades etc, it shows a lot of people did not understand how to use them.So it comes down to the operator. To understand what the tool is capable of and how to arrive at the desired outcome.One of those times is when I got my first card scrapers and got it homed and when the fine shaving came off, It was one of those eureca moments.Same as the first time some of the Mucki mucks my wife worked with. They invited me to a skeet shooting event. They sort of snickered at my old $75 shotgun and they were all petting there many $ thousand dollar Italian shotguns. I took first place in the B event and many comments were made later about inate shooting ability, not the cost of the tool. One fellow asked me to try out for the provincial shooting team.Anyway I do appreciate your work and Mr Holtey's. I would love to own one but afraid to use it. Or worse have daughter pick it up and hammer a nail with it! Tool abuse!!!!!Now have you considered trading a plane for a custom pair of shoes? You don't walk faster or float gently above the ground. most people wouldn't notice (unless you want something funky). But if you have feet that don't fit stock footwear, the comfort factor over rides the cost of "a pair of shoes". Guess it comes down to an individuals priorities, income and need.Keep up the good work and thanks for keeping the bar high.
Most people approach hand tool woodworking with a machine operator mindset - they want the accuracy to be inherent in the tool and not on the layout lines either marked or incised on the project pieces.
Other than for the odd tussle with overly wild grained boards, and who needs a steady diet of that, so-called "average" planes, chisels, and saws will work just fine. It's been proved time and time again by people just like the chairmaker you mentioned in your post.
Edited 7/8/2009 6:38 am ET by Poner_Jobon
P.J.,You sound like a wise man. Somehow it seems like I know you, but by another name. :-) You said: "Other than for the odd tussle with overly wild grained boards, and who needs a steady diet of that, so-called "average" planes, chisels, and saws will work just fine. "Of course, what you said is obviously true. However, I wonder why and how some people equate goodness of planes with their cost. Is a $10,000 Holtey five times better than a cheap $2000 Marcou or a twenty times better than a super cheap $500 Lie Nielsen? Of course not.Given the current situation, I have an idea on how four people could make big money. How about Holtey, Philip, Ron, and Larry get together and make a "Limited Offer" of "the ultimate set of four planes". There would be five sets. Each maker would have one plane in each of the five sets. This offer is a one time thing, and will not be repeated. Each of the four makers would strive to make a better plane than they had ever made before. Each set of four would sell for $50,000 initially. Of course, Derek could do a review of the four plane set, so each set is actually more than just four planes, it is four planes and a signed and dated review. Since Derek likes to do Presentation boxes, he could do cases for the five sets of planes.Please note that the focus here will be on QUALITY. The four makers would strive to make these planes better than anything they had done previously. The only thing I worry about is that the five sets will sell out too quickly. If it looks like that is going to happen, the price should be raised. It is difficult to put a price on quality. What do you think? Would Holtey be willing to accept a mere $20,000 for each of the five planes he would make? Would Philip, Ron and Larry each be willing to take only $10,000 apiece for each of their planes. Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I've never quite understood the market for very high end boutique planes but I'm not in a position to spend that kind of money so there may be some bias at work on my part.I've noted plenty of historically significant pieces around that used burls, crotches, birdseye, tiger striped, and other figured woods. The old guys somehow got through it, pre-Holtey. I think an Average Joe like me had better spend time figuring out how they did it, rather than figuring out how to come up with four figures or more for a new plane. I can't afford to purchase, off the shelf, the kind of capabilities being touted for these very expensive planes.
Edited 7/8/2009 11:12 am ET by Poner_Jobon
Make your own, when you need the capability of high angle, narrow mouth.At the property that I'm living at in Montana this summer, we do that sort of thing for hundreds of different items or procedures.For instance, my girlfriend and I just built a stone patio over the last couple weeks. It cost $53 in gas and a US Forest Service permit to collect about 3000 lbs of slate from a spot in the mountains in Western Montana. And a little bit of hard labor, and derring-do driving on mountain one-lane "roads." If we had bought the stone at Lowes, it would have cost several thousand dollars.We do that for just about everything. We only buy from a store if there's no other way to get the capability that you need, and then, we avoid the advertising and hype, and then we only buy stuff that is good, solid quality, not some pipe-dream fantasy of perfection with simplistic capability..Note that Krenov made his own planes and he seems to have done okay in the world of woodworking.Good luck.
Poner,
"I've never quite understood the market for very high end boutique planes but I'm not in a position to spend that kind of money so there may be some bias at work on my part.I've noted plenty of historically significant pieces around that used burls, crotches, birdseye, tiger striped, and other figured woods. The old guys somehow got through it, pre-Holtey. I think an Average Joe like me had better spend time figuring out how they did it, rather than figuring out how to come up with four figures or more for a new plane."Amen, brother!
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I looked at the "new block plane by Veritas, not too bad, but I'll just keep using my Stanley No. 110. Needed a "chisel plane" to clean up dados, too much cash for a "store bought one" so I made my own. I'm still using an 80s era Craftsman Tablesaw (Emerson) not because I can't afford a new saw, but because the saw and I are old friends. I KNOW how the saw works and how it will set up to do the cuts I need to do. It's in a word, "comfortable". Old spokeshave, unknown maker, still works wonders for me. It's not the $$$ of the tool, it's HOW you use the tool. It's the person using the tool. I'm sure ther are all kinds of jigs out there to "help' one cut a "perfect" cut. I can still split a scribe line with just a handsaw, bandsaw, or that old tablesaw without the jigs as a crutch. If one has the money for this high priced "toys", go ahead and buy them. Would a $2,000 plane make me a "better" wood worker? NO!
Whitedog,"It's not the $$$ of the tool, it's HOW you use the tool. It's the person using the tool. I'm sure ther are all kinds of jigs out there to "help' one cut a "perfect" cut. I can still split a scribe line with just a handsaw, bandsaw, or that old tablesaw without the jigs as a crutch. ... Would a $2,000 plane make me a "better" wood worker? NO!"YOU ARE A REAL WOODWORKER!
Great attitude. Great approach to woodworking.
Thanks for writing.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
I just make simple little projects as a hobby. I do try to do as well as I can with each. The old saying: 'We don't do a lot of fancy stuff, but what we do do, we do VERY well". Shop is on a very tight "shoestring" budget, I use other people's "scrap" wood and give it another "life". I thank you for your comments.
WhiteDog,
You sound more than a bit like I feel. I am retired, and thus am on a budget. Before I was retired, I put three kids through college. One got a PhD and two got Masters Degrees. My wife and I didn't go out to eat steak a lot. When I joined Knots a few years ago, all of the tools in my shop cost me a total of less than $4000. I don't have very many Holteys :-) My first eight years of woodworking, back in the late 80s and early 90s, (I am referring to the 1980s and 1990s), I build my furniture on a workbench that I made from scraps from a construction site, and my tools were from Sears (a circular saw, a jigsaw, a router, a power drill, and some handtools and sandpaper). Now I have a part time job at Woodcraft, which gives me a good discount on tools and supplies. I don't whine about my tools. I am quite happy with them. Like you, my focus is on increasing my skills, and by doing new and different things on each project. It is good to have you for a friend. Next time you get anywhere near Northern Virginia, please let me know. Ohio ain't that far away. We will cook some barbeque, and swap some woodworking lies.Have fun,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,
I have seen that Monty Python clip before. It is hilarious. Thanks for bringing it up.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Besides the economics, consumer psychology and what you will behind the whole thing I'm just not quite sure how my psyche would handle the first, but inevitable, bit of tearout produced by a smoothing plane that cost many thousands of dollars. Wouldn't it be a total drag to have to pull out a five buck scraper (or God forbid a sanding block) to follow a ten thousand dollar plane? I don't know if I'd laugh or cry. Probably both. Simultaneously.
Edited 7/9/2009 8:47 am ET by Poner_Jobon
Thanks Dereck Have not seen that on since the penquin in the Telle blew up and we were to poor to buy another, let alone a can of spam.
Them we would make a scraper out of the lid of the spam and ........
Poner,
I think that a $2000 plane is much like $150,000 car. You don't want to park it in front of the supermarket or in the parking lot of the Mall, so you have to take your Ford there instead. The Lamborghini is not so much for actual use as for showing yourself and others that "You have made it." That's not so bad. If you have the money, and if you haven't got the gumption to donate excess money to a good cause, then buy a $2000 or a $10,000 plane. Heck there were people who paid that much, just to go and sit at Michael Jackson's funeral. There is a lot of "excess" money out there. Whenever that happens, you will find people who develop ways to separate it from its owners. There is a great book called "The gentle art of faking fine furniture". In it, the author talks about the fact that there are more and more "antiques" being made every day, because the market wants them and will pay for them, and won't realize that they have been taken. Great book.Have fun.
MelEnjoy,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel .. Where do you come up with these words?
Edited 7/11/2009 6:52 am by WillGeorge
WG,
"Where do you come up with these words?"Mostly from the dictionary. Sometimes I use a thesaurus.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Boiler,
"It won't be very long at all, considering how Philips plane have grown in beauty and in depth (like your new dreadnought) that they to will rise to the more show, less use level".
I don't think sooooooooooooooooooo......Less use is going backwards...
To date only one of mine is under glass and the owner got away with it because he had bought furniture I made and also commissioned me to make him a couple of items. And he is not a woodworker, not even a carpenter (;). So I had to interrogate him extensively to be sure that the plane would be suitably appreciated and I would receive proportionate benefits.Every now and again I carry out an inspection at his behest especially as he is an epicurean of note. Delightful customer....See the plane here, and apologies to those who have seen it before.Philip Marcou
Hi Philip
The wood - burl? - on that tote is spectacular ... actually as is the profile of the tote.
What wood is it?
The knob looks a different species ...?
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,
That is Imbuia,(Phoebe Porosa) my favourite wood for furniture-and many other applications. If is very variable in appearance, some boards can have black and yellow streaks and mottles combined, others are just a plain yellowish colour, others can have a walnut burl like look-I have used this type for Jaguar screen rails.Both tote and knob there are Imbuia. That one has a 1/4 inch sole and is the last I made with "thin sole".The tote is the same profile as yours.See pictures which show the character of Imbuia. It also smells delightful, edible even when it is heated.Great to work, medium weight and hardness, stable. I think it is hard to get now because the Brazilians have twigged on to its value. To think that at one time it was exported to South Africa and elswehere for rail sleepers...I am pretty sure that it can be found at some merchant yard in Australia too.I am surprised that it is not more famous, but at least Mike Wentzloff uses it for his saw handles.I conserve every scrap I have .
The board on the left in picture 0015 is not Imbuia- it is Rhodesian Teak. Philip Marcou
Edited 7/5/2009 5:56 am by philip
Hi Philip
I could look at wood grain for hours on end.
This just finished me off! :)
View Image
Regards from Perth
Derek
I could look at wood grain for hours on end. LOL...
And how long at women at the beach?
I say this with a wink: under what sort of emergency is required to break the glass, so the plane could be used?Yesterday, I used my #7 Lie Nielsen to ease down the width of a maple rail on a maple face frame project; such a nice tool made light work.Back in Feb, I was at the Lie Nielsen tool show in Oakland, CA. Sauer and Steiner were there, and I tried out a $10K ebony infill jointer plane. Imagine the work that could get done with it.Buy what you can, run whatcha' brung....
Beautiful use of the language! Mark Twain would be proud!
I second your thoughts too!
GG,
Well, although one o' them Cannondale bicycles of the Supersix variety is a bit beyond my purse (which is a rather empty pouch, due to Marcou-lust) I have recently acquired another fine bicycle designed in America (made in Taiwan though but) by Mr Specialized. Being a cyclo-cross bicycle, it may be ridden madly down steep, muddy, rocky lanes in a divvil-may-care fashion. I always take a good fairy in the tool pouch to ward away trip-goblins and skid-monsters, mind.
A well-designed and functional machine made from Good Materials is a great joy, especially when it's owner must also be the motor. This seems to apply most particularly to hand planes and bicycles, which both allow swooshing of quite different but utterly pleasurable kinds.
I confess to an illicit enjoyment got from swooshing-by a labouring fellow on a gas-pipe bicycle. He has saved hisself tuppence or even fivpence; but also avoided swooshing-pleasures. If it were possible to swoosh a Marcou at a purchaser of a ticky-tacky plane, I'm afraid I would do it. No doubt I should be put in the stocks for a while, as an example to pleasure-swooshing clever-buggers everywhere.
Lataxe
Hmmm, a paradox. A prime cost factor in bicycles is lack of weight. The more weight you have to move the more work. The same thing with planes--ease of use, resilience, agility and control come from removing the burden of deadening weight. Still, I have to admit that brass and googaboola wood can make for some attractive shelf or mantle jewelry and have the added advantage of keeping the shelf from blowing away in high winds. I think planes are like bicycles, if you're actually going to spend the day or even an afternoon herding one around, you'll very quickly come to cherish a lack of weight and the agility low weight offers.
I think planes are like bicycles, if you're actually going to spend the day or even an afternoon herding one around, you'll very quickly come to cherish a lack of weight and the agility low weight offers.
Let's see Larry, could you be suggesting that your light C&W planes are to be preferred and that the massy Marcou planes are potential trouble? Not very subtle.
I have not used one of your planes. One day, hopefully. I hear very consistent reports that they are superb planes. But I have to wonder why you feel the need to find an opportunity to knock every one who does something different to you. Is there no room in the world for anyone else but you?
So massy planes are "more work"? Let's get a couple of second opinions. Here is an exerpt from Mark Singer's review ..
It is a different plane! It feels quite different because of its mass… it is like a precise freight train flush to the board plowing effortlessly… The feeling and result can not be described in so many words - it must be experienced to be understood.
What is truly unique is the feeling of the extension of the craftsman’s hand… it feels like it is part of you. With planes this feeling has always been conveyed by wooden body planes… wood on wood… a lightness that is not at all in the Marcou equation.
View Image
Still the feeling is present with every stroke… there is no need to apply a conscious downward pressure on the knob… the plane knows! Each commanding pass leaves a flawless smooth surface expressing the true character of the wood.
The wood seems to know… “this Marcou is a force too powerful to be reckoned with!” Instead it lays quiet in submission and just concentrates on looking it’s best! “Why fight back?” - it seems to say. “I have little control of the situation! I’ll just look my best!”
The wood does look its best… and even better.
The Marcou S20A does a very good job at making the craftsman look his best as well!
Then there is a review of Christopher Schwarz...
View Image
The mass of the tool was an immediate concern of mine. You anticipate that the tool will simply wear you out after a few strokes. This is not quite the case. Because of the tool’s immense mass, you don’t have to push the tool firmly down against the work to ensure a smooth cut (even in tough woods). Lightweight wooden planes are a joy to use in domestic hardwoods, but they can require a fair amount of downward effort on your part to maintain a controlled cut. With the Marcou, its mass does most of the pushing down. You just have to push it forward.
Getting the plane started in the cut requires the most effort; after that, inertia takes over and the tool isn’t difficult to push. The return stroke seemed the most fatiguing to me, even though you’re not cutting during this part of the stroke. Bottom line: The tool isn’t tiring if you use it properly. If you prepare your stock with a jointer plane prior to a smoothing plane then the stock will require only minimal attention with a smoothing plane. Long planing sessions should be fairly rare.The mass is an advantage when planing difficult woods, such as the timbers found in New Zealand and neighboring Australia. A plane’s weight helps keep the cutter in the thick of things – not riding up and skittering over the wood.
Readers need to make up their own minds whether your way is the only way ... or not.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Both of these reviews were written after planing a test board or two.
Maybe we need to catch Singer or Schwartz three days into working a hundred board feet of Maple for a large cabinet project. It won't happen because neither one of them use hand tools day in and day out, from start to finish, on real woodworking projects. They formed an opinion in maybe twenty to forty minutes of planing.
Those massive planes work fine on boards that have been over the jointer and through the planer. One or two passes across the face to remove the ripples and you can set it back in its glass enclosure before turning on the Woodrat to finish cutting the joinery.
I'd love the be a fly on the wall in the shop of a 50-something pudgy part-timer trying to process serious, hairy, board footage with one of those planes. They'd be crying for something lighter.
Do it ten times - thousand bd. feet or so (not ten minutes). THEN write a review.
Edited 7/10/2009 3:09 pm ET by Plancher_Fasciitis
Charles et Larry,
I feel you chaps must be rather weedy and perhaps feeble of arm, as them proper man's planes have frightened you somewhat, judging by your thin cries of protest. Also, I note you avoid talk of riding the bicycle in a manly fashion - fast, whilst gulping down oxygen and snarling at plump motorists, who have sucumbed to the easements of modern life so that they can barely press on the pedals or turn the steering wheel, which both have to be power-assisted.
My advice is to get down to the gymnasium and improve the strength of your flabby arms and also the other bits, before all that easy living and pushing little toy planes about like a wuss takes a fatal toll on your vigour. (Too late to save your vim, I feel, which has been reduced to making croaking noises from your rocking chair in a musty corner of the room).
Lataxe, your cyber-trainer.
Heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh !!!
David, you absolutely kill me!
Regards from Perth
Derek
I would second that thought...I'll wager that new baby of Plancher's weighs alot more than one of Philip's planes and he's gonna have to pump alot of iron if he expects to lug that little missy about for any length of time..
Neil
PS I've planed with one of them fancy ones for a couple of hours...didn't even break a sweat...them Youngsters, I swear...
I bet a few fingers easily tallies the number of guys who've actually had one of those boat anchors in their hand for over fifteen hours in one week. You could keep the Queen Mary still in a Force 10 gale with one.
They're dude planes, for dudes. They swoop in after a bunch of machines have done the heavy lifting. They clip the top off the scallops, make the owner feel like a genius, and then go back on the shelf inside a specially fitted velvet sock. The brass might tarnish, you know.
I drove a Ferrari around the block once - never got out of first gear. Interested in a review?
Edited 7/10/2009 5:08 pm ET by Plancher_Fasciitis
Charles,
I will certainly review that Ferrari for you. Just post it to Galgate and make sure it has a full tank of your gas. The review will take only a year or two and I cannot be responsible for the necessary high mileage.
Now, I suspect you may also be allowing your mean-gene to run amok in the kitchen. In fact, I suspect you don't bother with cookin' at all but buy MacFud, as this is basic, cheap and very far from a dude choice. Also, you may be drinking that muddy water called beer in the US, on the grounds that it is cheap and nasty so therefore a good choice for a miser-man.
These are poor habits for a civilised lad, especially during a recession when we must encourage the manufacture and sale of high quality goods that actually work, as opposed to those of modern Fordist manufacturing, which is run by accountants and pennypinch men chanting "cut costs, pile high the dross"!
I am hoping that if you really do make furniture (as you know, I suspect you are in fact a spotty teen doing a pretending thang) that your furniture is not of a type akin to the tools you prefer - cheap, crude and in need of constant maintenance just to make it look like furniture, let alone service the seating and storage needs of large MacFud eaters.
Perhaps you are an Ikea man plugging thin pine dowels into badly-bored holes?
Lataxe, a dude not for duds.
All dowel joinery of course. I am the world's foremost collector of, and authority on, dowel jigs.
I actually have one helluva well used but still lovely collection of Lagorsse from L'Ile de France. I'll whip sumpin' up for you the next time you're in the States, or we could make a run to Micky D's. I ain't above a Big Mac every now and then.
Edited 7/10/2009 5:30 pm ET by Plancher_Fasciitis
Mon dieu, le chat est mort, Lagorsse copperware? Non non non...
Dude, that is way too shiny for you , stick to Aloominyumyum. And lay off the Big Macs or your next names could be Stent or Burstus Rectum.Philip Marcou
Edited 7/11/2009 3:45 am by philip
"cut costs, pile high the dross"!
See your closing in on being a supreme ruler.Philip
I didn't know you could speak Canada other officeal language.By the way there beer ain't muddy water. it is clear, tinted, rice/corn mash with i piece of barley tossed in and a hoppes plant is grown with in 5000 miles and co2 injected.The shoe likes a pint o bitter's and the odd Belgiem Framboise. A pint of Guiness on St Patties day with some old bushmills followed buy looking for lupricans hiding booty of marcou'sAnd I'm a dude 'cause my chev truck is paid fer and it's got real rust holes.
Gotta die of something. Me, death by Julia Child most likely. I just keep the red wine flowing and hope for the best.
Not a bad way to go , admittedly, but I would prefer a lithesome chefette plying Liebfraumilch to be in attendance.Philip Marcou
Saving salvaged hard Jarrah and Karri roof trusses is not for the faint hearted!Are these common around your area? What size would they be?I have dismantled a few building over the years, The best prize was a 10 x 14 inch by 14 foot beam of old growth fir. The old chev truck protested but made it home. Maple flooring and lots of large profile oak trim. Bartered, sold, gave away and used lots of materialsMy shop about 1000 ft sq was made from recycled materials. Remember they used to call me cheap now they call me eco friendly.You should see my reverse gear, when I tore into a wall and found it full of wasps.
Are these common around your area? What size would they be?
Jarrah and Karri only grow in Western Australia and have been overlogged for years (centuries). Jarrah was used to construct railway sleepers and piers, then roofs and finally furniture. In recent years it has become a timber of choice for expensive furniture. The price of Jarrah has climbed and climbed, with the result that most is now exported.
Most of the Jarrah I use comes from salvage yards in the form of rough sawn roof beams. These are typically 4"x4" and and 6" x 2" and up to 20 feet long. Occasionally I come across wide boards that were used on fascias. Of course there are also old floorboards. Some are 8" wide.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,
It was even exported to Southern Africa for rail road sleepers. When those were replaced with concrete versions not a few factories sprang up in Zimbabwe making "sleeper furniture", using Australian sleeper woods, local sleepers such as Rhodesian Teak, and sleepers made from some South American woods. Ex military gentlemen have told me of vast quantities to be found in Mozambique....Anyway, those that convert those sleepers into boards are experts on saw maintenance , metal detection and the removal of lead and other shrapnel.And then there was the joke about an indigenous gentleman who applied for a job , producing a reference which stated that he had been a "sleeper on the railways for many years"....Philip Marcou
Well, you can count me as one of the 10. I have wooden planes (mostly antiques that have been tuned), Lie Nielsens, Lee Valleys, Norris, Spiers and Mathieson antiques, and 3 Konrad Sauers.
And yeah, I process wood from the fresh-from-the-mill rough bandsawn state to smooth and squared without the aid of power for a lot of projects. Generally speaking, a beat-up wooden fore plane by Ohio tools or a 1910's Stanely #6 gets used as the initial plane, because precision doesn't matter and isn't desirable. And I'm not sure I'd want to use a 26" infill jointer on a regualr basis - way too heavy.
However, on show-surface boards, I regularly use a heavy Norris infill or a Konrad Sauer for several hours at a time to smooth out a raft of lumber for a particular project. In my opinion, the weight of an infill balances against the force that I apply downwards on a light wooden plane (I have and use wooden smoothers). There is no question that my shoulder muscles fill the strain of several hours of lifting the heavy infills back to the starting point, but my neck muscles feel the strain after several hours of applying unconscious force downwards on the wooden smoother.
In my opinion, it's about equal - rob Peter, but pay Paul. But in the case of the infills, there's little to no tearout that requires further processing with a scraper, so that's partly why I use them.
In my opinion, it's about equal - rob Peter, but pay Paul.
I agree. There is no better planing experience than using a light woodie to smooth a softer wood, and watching the surface change from matt to shine. However, a heavy smoother on a hardwood can have a similar effortlessness when one does not have to apply as much downforce as might be needed with a light plane. This is even more of a factor when the hardwood is interlinked and a high cutting angle is used.
For the record, my 8" jointer and lunchbox thicknesser are recent additions to the workshop. I have been quite content to prepare boards from rough sawn or salvage state to finish with handplanes only for many years. The power addition has been made to speed up a number of projects, delegating some of the lesser fun activities to my power assistants. Saving salvaged hard Jarrah and Karri roof trusses is not for the faint hearted! (... and Charlie, that is a job for scrubs and jacks, not smoothers ... and a #5 1/2 as a scrub/jack is preferred over a lighter plane here as well).
Regards from Perth
Derek
David,
You are in danger of making salient points out of experience and consideration! This may be too shocking for some WW idealists as it pulls at the tails of their dogmas and may be undermining the very foundations of the temple!!
Obviously, you are the divvil in disguise and will have to be exorcised by an indecipherable litany mumbled by Reverend Malicious, whilst a certain plank-faced fellow builds an admonitory bonfire on the unhallowed ground.
Lataxe, enjoying your list of points pinned to the temple door.
You obviously have a broad and deep arsenal of hand planes. I think that sort of redundancy is, historically speaking, a relatively new concept.I find that when a lighter weight smoother is not doing the job then I have not flattened the board properly - I am in effect doing nothing more than using a smoother as poor substitue for a jack or fore plane.Pushing the plane into the dips just means the board wasn't quite ready for the smoother. If I can't take a full shaving from end to end I just set it down and pick up a long plane for another go. I'm pretty sure that's how it is supposed to work since a few extra passes with a long plane always allows the smoother to take a clean shaving all the way down the board. When I follow this formula I haven't noticed the need to exert an uncomfortable amount of downward pressure with the smoother.You need to see Phil Lowe process stock with hand planes. It's like watching Fred Couples swing a golf club - effortlessness personified.Look at this:http://www.pem.org/luxury/furniture.html (click on the planing video)Pay attention to the first two sentences out of his mouth.
Edited 7/13/2009 8:42 am ET by Plancher_Fasciitis
Plank,
Nice video.
Correct me if I am wrong , but I think I see a nice amenable wood there in the form of Cherry. I would want to witness you doing the same on a tougher wood such as Iroko or Afrormosia.These are common in The World but supposedly not in the States.I think you could suffer an instantaneous name change to "Major Infarction" or "Early Onset Dementia".Philip Marcou
Is it your assertion that a plane like the one used in the video won't plane the species you mentioned?
Maybe we need to catch Singer or Schwartz three days into working a hundred board feet of Maple for a large cabinet project. It won't happen because neither one of them use hand tools day in and day out, from start to finish, on real woodworking projects. They formed an opinion in maybe twenty to forty minutes of planing.
Charlie
This is why you would never make a decent Reviewer - because you only want to prescribe to others what suits yourself.
Hands up all here who plane "hundreds of board feet ... day in and day out" ... I think that you will find that you are in the minority. The majority here use smoothers to finish work, and do so with a sense of pleasure and fun. Woodworking for most handtool users is as much about the journey as the destination.
And you say that no one else does "real woodworking projects" unless they use handplanes this way. Is this really so? Mmmmm ... so you don't consider Christopher Schwarz capable of reaching an objective decision since he lacks your criteria. I suppose that if can't be a Real Woodworker, then you have the ideal qualifications to be the Editor of a woodworking magazine?
Charlie, here's a news flash .... to misquote Monty Python, "You're not the Messiah - You're just a very naughty boy.”The only person who takes you seriously is still Fawning Mel, since he is so desparate to please you.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Man, you've really got the kneepads on when it comes to Chris Schwartz don't you?
I want to hear what the little waif has to say after planing a whole bunch 'a wood with one of dem dere boat anchors. That's all. If he's just as enthusiastic then so be it.
If everything's a smoother to him, and planes are subjected to the rigors of one test board or simply cleaning up after machines, then I have no use for his opinion.
Did you bid on this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250455820549
Edited 7/11/2009 6:59 am ET by Plancher_Fasciitis
Hi Charlie
Did I bid on Chris' Woobie? Absolutely!!!! I need it to wipe away the laughter ...
Fasciitis is pretty apt. But I'd say you should be looking in the area of the buttocks, not the knees. Ha ha ha ...
Regards from Perth
Derek
BB,
Holtey's artificats are ART.
What he makes belongs in museums, not woodshops, unless the woodshop is well-guarded, and well-insured, and has a soft floor. :-) I love tool museums. I have seen some magnificent wood planes that were highly and beautifully carved. Absolute works of art - but also quite useful. I wouldn't doubt they were made by the woodworker who used them. My particular bent on art is "useful art". That is not for everyone, and I certainly wouldn't ask anyone else to adopt my ideas. You did ask why am I making this about price rather than...". Actually I didn't bring up price. Others did. If you look closely at my comment, it has to do with overall capabiliies of two different alternatives that are of the same price. To me, it is worth considering the relative capabilities of two different approaches in woodworking. But I can see how you might focus on the price aspect. It is much like the old saw about the bunch of blind men looking at an elephant with their canes. We may be looking at the same thing, but we see different things. Have fun. (that's the goal here, IMHO)
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
There is nothing better than to use a fine woodworking hand tool whether new or old. I am amazed how many woodworkers are chained to power tools for mortise, tenons, dovetails and etc. I could spend $3,000 on a table saw and nobody would bat an eye. In my opinion, $3,000 for a set of Japanese chisels or a Holtey plane would be a waste of money to most, even woodworkers. At my age I can get a warm feeling from using an old handsaw that was sharpened by a master unknown to the user. It was purchased on Ebay. Someday maybe I'll buy a Holtey for the pleasure of using it on a project. My fear would be that my heirs would probably sell it at a garage sale not knowing or understanding the fair market price. Value in hand tools is in the eyes of those that really use them. Rex
Rex,
You are a wise man.
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
That is some fine work. He spent a bunch of time planning and working out the set up to make the jigs and followers. He has a bunch invested in making those planes. Labor of love.
d
I've been admiring his planes for years, could never afford one but would use them if I had them. I do think his planes are works of art that are meant to be used, kind of like a Ferrari or a high end English shotgun. I am glad he has such a nice website and the blog so I can admire his work.
Troy
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled