Hello,
I am at that stage where I need to purchase handplanes. I have read a few books so far on wood working but handplanes are not covered in much detail so far. So I am left with the following questions:
1. What plane to buy first? In other words, which one is the most versatile?
2. Why are there so many different sizes and model? Which is used to do what?
3. I am not planing on paying a fortune for them since this is only a hobby for me. So no LN for me 😉 I will most likelly purchase Stanley models and go throught the filing, lapping and waxing to get them to perform better. Are there models I should avoid?
4. I purchased a block plane yesterday but I find it hard to use. The adjustment for the blade is done by tapping the blade up and down. The screw only locks the blade in place, it is not used to adjust it. Is there a way to have some ajustable screw or am I stuck with this?
Well any advice is welcome.
Replies
Am at the same place. It was suggested to me to buy and read cover to cover Garrett Hack's book on Woodplanes. It is considered by many to be the bible on the subject. Costs about $25.00 from either Taunton Press or Woodcraft.
It is very detailed and explains all from buying to using to collecting. I recommend it highly before you plunk down any $$ on a plane.
Robbie
Going to take the plunge, congrats! Great tools if you get good ones. That is why you need little info and education first. As Robbie suggested, the Garrett Hack book is great, and can give you ideas on what planes get used where. Another source for figuring out all those numbers is http://www.supertool.com . The whole site is good, but you'll want to check out Patricks Blood and Gore. It gives a history, use, rarity, and Patrick's opinion of that plane, all broken down by number. Highly recommend going through it.
That block plane you bought sounds to me like a lesson learned, hope it wasn't expensive. A good block to start with would have easy adjustment, an adjustable mouth, low angle is nice for most things, so go that way, and should fit your hand well. My personal favorite is a Stanley 65. They are not made anymore, but you can pick one up for about $30 off Ebay.
I've got a few over a hundred planes, and each one is different, even the duplicates. Each person will have his preferences, for instance with jointer planes. Some swear by #7's, I like #8's, and a few even use #6's exclusively. They all work fine, but you have some leeway with what you get. My point is, don't get freaked out at what plane you should buy, then not buy any. A #5 is a good place to start, it's kind of the jack of all trades (pun intended:) and once you use it, you'll start to see why there are so many different models.
This is my favorite woodworking subject, and while there are much more knowledgeable people here, I still love to talk planes, so just ask.
After getting Hack's book, I think I would recommend a Block Plane to start.
A Stanley 60 1/2 L/A Block Plane would be good place to start off since they need a lot of tuning out of the box and you'll get a good feeling of what needs to be done to get a plane "tuned". Should pay about $38-45.
Stepping up to Lee Valley you get a Veritas Low Angle Block Plane for $99. Much better quality.
For Block Planes I use a Lie-Nielsen 102 Bronze Block Plane that I keep in my apron ($95) and a Lie-Nielsen 60 1/2R L/A Rabbet Block Plane that I keep on the workbench ($150). The following is probably heresy, but the I have yet to "tune" the Lie-Nielsens and they've been cutting paper thin shavings with and across the grain for over a year now.
__________________________________________________________
Michael in San Jose
Freedom from mental disturbance is the very most for which one can hope.
Epicurus (341-270 BCE)
Edited 3/18/2004 2:49 pm ET by michaelp
Michael, I bet you ment to adress your post to Calendyr.
I do agree with you on the versitility of a block plane. I bet mine get used two to one over anything else. I love my LN's too, and would highly recommend them. However tuning an old Stanley will give you an intimate understanding of a planes construction, where a new LN dosen't really give you a reason to study it. Out of curiosity, have you used a 65? I wonder what your opinion of it compared to your 60 1/2 LN is. Have a good evening,Steve
Don't be too quick to dismiss LN's as too expensive. While it's true you can get a cheap plane to work well you need to have the skill to tune it. Without the skill to use a plane it's very difficult to tune one. Secondly if you buy a good one it'll be your last one of the same type & size. So I learned the hard way. So for what I spent on the two Records and later replaced with LN's I could have had a 3rd LN instead of 2 Records taking up space. I recommend a LN Low Angle Block w/ adjustible throat. I use this more than any of my others. Next I'd get a #5 LN. From there look for old Stanley "Baileys" or "Bedrocks". By then you will have acquired the skills from working with good planes and be able to tune the classics.
John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
Life is tough. It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne
Oh yeah I second that. I did the exact same thing. Now my brother inherited the Records and is already looking at up grades.I won't say the Records were money wasted but if sure wasn't money well spent.On a LN or a Clifton you might say over spent but you will never complain about the quality or having to muck about with it to get it to work.
Philip
Wow, thank you for all of the advice.
I have no room for a shop since I live in an appartment. So without all of the fancy electric equipment I need to use hand planes.
Will have a look at the website and books you mentioned. Buying one plane with various blades sounds like a great idea to me! Thank you!
I have purchased hundreads of dollars worth of tools in the last 2 months and I am far from having a minimum to do what I what. I have stopped my project several times because I was needing a tool I did not have.
My biggest fear at the moment is honing, I have read a lot about it but doing it free hand makes me nervous and I don't think the honing guides allow you to select the angle and all...
I also have to find a way for sandpaper to stick to glass while being able to remove it when the paper is used up... what are you guys using? I don't want to use stones, seems too slow and complicated compared to the sandpaper way. And since this is not my lifeblood the little extra it costs to use this method doesn't bother me.
3M Model 77 Spray adhesive works well and can be easily removed with a razor blade and some standard orange adhesive remover.
Todd
Calendyr,
I just bought a simple spray adhesive at Home Depot (in the paint department). Just spray a little on the glass and your sandpaper will adhere nicely to it. You may want to buy the continuous piece of sandpaper (comes in a roll) and cut it to fit your lapping table and piece of glass. I was cutting strips from sheets of 220 grit sandpaper and putting them on the glass next to each other. But when I would run the handplane over it to flatten the sole it would, at times, lift up the sandpaper where they were attached. So a continuous piece makes more sense...Good luck...Regards,
Buzzsaw
I bet you ment to adress your post to Michael, instead of me. No LN dismissing here. Great tools, and if you want to see how a plane should work, try one.
I however learned the oposite way. Tune Grandpa's old planes to usable, then use then tweak, over and over, till I think I got it. Now, I do appreciate a LN or Shepherd, but certainly don't write off a used Bailey or Bedrock as a tuning nightmare. In fact, I bet that most of those old planes, with nothing more then a really good sharpening and cleaning, will make excellent planes.
I can't bring myself to buy a new Record or Clifton, when an old Bailey can be had for far less money and be just as good of a plane. LN's are a different animal, as they are a cut above everything else that I've fooled with, and they are worth the extra money. Just my opinion. Have a good evening,Steve
I do not have any expensive planes, just low cost Stanley and similar types. I mainly work with the block and jointer planes. I am fairly skilled with them, I have joined 2" teak planks 8 feet long to make dining tables that have lasted 20 plus years. I am very proficient in grinding and honing of any type of blade to extreme sharpness. If I bought some LN planes would I notice a big difference in performance over the lower cost planes?
Woodman,
I'd say no, the LN's are not going to show functional improvement over your well tuned and sharp older planes. The LN's are based on the Stanley Bedrock design, and an argument could be made that the machined frog surface of the Bedrocks is more stable then a standard Bailey design, but the difference is not very much. LN's are a very nice plane out of the box, but they are still using the same basic design that Leonard Bailey came up with 130 years ago. Seems to me that the Bailey pattern plane was perfected long ago, and LN is selling pretty metal with a nice tune. Great if you want that, but not superior to a well tuned oldie. I buy LN's when the collector value of the Stanley version is high, but I want that number of plane. Like a 97 chisel plane, or a 164 low angle smoother.
I like to use old planes myself, I prefer their character.Steve
>> ... not going to show functional improvement over your well tuned and sharp older planes.
Other posters here have disagreed, reporting clear functional improvements. Of course I don't know how well their older planes were tuned and sharpened, but they did sound like they knew what they were talking about regarding tuning and sharpening.
I always wondered if the praise and respect the LN planes get is based on the blade being super sharp right out of the box, compared to poorly ground and honed Stanley planes. It is a lot of work to flatten and polish a # 7 sole and blade and breaker. They are really like kits,but it is satisfying to make the plane your own in that manner. The quality of the steel blade seems good to me or else it would be a waste of time. Also even the LN will get dull and if you don't have the ability to restore the blade to its original sharpness you are back to a Stanley again!
>>Other posters here have disagreed, reporting clear functional improvements.<<
Sure, and perhaps they have a bunch of $ invested in LN to justify. If you have the same blade geometry, and the blade securely attached the same way, and the same good vibration resistant design, then there can't be much difference. Blades can make a difference, but you can fit a Hock in a Stanley. I use Bedrocks a bunch too, and when they are sharp, they are just as good as my LN's. When either of them is dull, they are useless. I stand by my opinion.
Some designs seem to have an advantage, like infills, but I don't have enough experience with them to make an opinion, yet:). Steve
I think you have saved me a lot of money and disappointment, Thanks.
Of course, you don't have to buy 'some' Lie-Nielsen planeS plural ...
Buy just one, and see what you think! Thom L-N will take it right back if you decide it wasn't worth the price. As suggested, perhaps a scarce/spendy Stanley number, or one of a general type you don't have. If you now have only jointers and blocks, I do think it is worth your time to try say, a L-N 4.5 with York pitch frog and the improved chipbreaker, or a 164 (or even the widely-loved 60.5, so as to directly compare, block-to-block) and then decide, based on your own experience. (I mostly use old Stanleys too, but I sure do put some serious miles on my L-N 60.5 adjustable block. There are three full-time WWs in the shop I share, none of whom tosses money around, and I think every one of them has that 60.5 L-N - I don't think Stanley blocks were ever made with the weight, and certainly they were never built with the machining/fit/finish, of the L-N 60.5.) I don't believe that L-N's large customer base, and lots'n'lots of repeat business, is made up (even largely) of folks who can't tune or sharpen! Of those who've compared and reported in, a few have said that for them, the cost/benefit of the L-Ns over the 'common' Bedrock 604s and 605s wasn't a clear call, but I have never - not once - heard anyone express anything remotely like 'disappointment' with their L-N.
Admittedly, if you never buy (or try) your first L-N, you are certain to save $! I took a turning class from Kevin Glen Drake (of Tite-Mark and 'handed' hammer fame), and he had every single L-N bench plane, all in a gleaming row. An impressive and envy-producing display indeed, but when I think about the cost, my ears start to bleed.
Clay
There is a lot to said for scrounging the flea markets. There's some great old iron out there still for not much cash.
Hey,
I am not an expert so these are just my opinions. I currently own about 10 planes: LN's and old Stanley’s. I did a lot of research before buying these, and I have some experience in their use and in tuning the Stanley’s.
First, with the possible exception of a block plane, they are not very versatile. That’s why there are hundreds of models. They do a very good job at their designed task. Decide what you want to do, then buy the plane that best suits that need. Trying to stretch a plane’s usefulness will most likely lead to disappointment. Consider the following tasks:
Surface Prep: Smoother (#4 or #4 1/2 or the like). Small projects can be done with a #3.
Smoothing difficult hardwood: Smoother with 50-55 deg bed angle
Smoothing hardwood: Smoother with 45-50 deg bed angle
Smoothing softwood: Smoother with 40-45 deg bed angle
Working tenons: Shoulder plane (bigger is better)
End grain: Low angle block plane (adjustable mouth)
Keeping your bench, or other large pieces that won't fit on your jointer machine, flat: Jointer (#7 or #8)
Second, my experience tuning the Stanley’s has convince me that I absolutely loath working with metal. It takes way to much time and makes a mess. I have since resolved only to buy wood planes or LN's and the like. I wish now that I had purchased more wooden planes.
They are cheaper and much easier to tune.
Good luck,
Todd
Lie-Nielsen is by far the best tool for the money! I have several Stanley planes (block, smooth, jack, etc) purchased at yard sales and on ebay and spent many hours tuning to get passable results. They also require constant maintenance and adjustment. My advice is buy a good tool and you never have to buy another!
Get a #7. If you're going to use handplanes then you must have something that will joint stock. Buy a few extra plane irons, hone them with varying degrees of camber, and you can use it both as a Jack and a smoother.
Calendyr,
I inherited my greatgrandfathers Stanley planes. I have been very pleased with them! However, they needed a TON of work! When I mean a ton I mean it! However, with all of this tuning, honing, flattening and etc. my skillset has improved dramatically.
I have recently purchased a LN low angle adjustable mouth block plane. I must say that is one awesome tool. I feel that LN and Stanley are in 2 different classes.
One thing that I notice is that my old Stanley plane irons hold a sharp edge longer than my LN plane does.
darkmagneto
Not all men were born to be woodworkers.
To see if you have what it takes start with second hand stuff. Look to car boot sales and the add page in the local paper. Then progress.
You will soon know if you have been bitten..then you can consider buying one of those gold plated shaving removers.....after you tell the wife first!!!!
Good hunting
Mike
I picked up a Stanley/Bailey #8, type 12, this past weekend for $25.00 at, of all places, an antique shop up in Okla. Very good condition, but needs restoring. I'll probably put it up on Ebay after restoring and refinishing the wood.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)PlaneWood
Mike, I hope you feel a little bit guilty for that deal! I got a 605 1/2 a month or so ago for $50 from an estate auction. As close to perfect condition as a guy would want too. Have a good evening,Steve
Sometimes people will just start giving you old planes once they know you collect them. Volunteering for habitat for Humanity, doing some volunteer wheelchair-ramp building and house maintenance for the elderly, and any other kind of volunteer carpentry will increase the odds of this. Both of these little smooth planes were given to me and I bought Hock irons for them.
The Stanley No. 4 was given to me by a neighbor whose uncle owned it. The uncle died in a sawmill accident in 1949. Naturally I thought it might possibly be haunted so I observed it carefully for a few months before fully working it in to the rest of the bench plane lineup. So far no signs of paranormal activity - it just cuts shavings real well.
BTW, if you do do some volunteer work on houses and want to throw a plane in the toolbox, I think the 5 1/2 is a useful size for trimming doors, window sashes, etc.
Calendyr,
Don't know where your located..but next month up in Nashua, NH is the big antique tool sale. I went last Oct. and can't wait till next month. The parking lot was loaded with dealers and all kinds of tools...hundreds of planes from Spiers and craftsman planes to Stanleys.....and a whole range of prices. Several vendors come over from England for the auction and bring their stock.
The parking lot was so interesting I never made it into the auction..
BG, you're making me jelous again. Did it last fall too. Oh well, best of luck from flyover country, and if you see a really good deal on a Norris A5.....Steve
Dirt,
I think the auction is in Indianapolis next Friday and Sat. the 25,26....a bit closer..
Now that would make for a fun weekend, wife would probably hate it though. Are there any in the western US?Steve
Dirt,
I did not see any auctions out your way....sorry
BG,
Please tell me more details about the Nashua Tool sale and auction.
Date, place or web site pointer, please.
Thanks
Bill -- in Central NH
Bill,
http://www.mjdtools.com and click on the auctions....you can then get all the info by clicking on the Nashua, NH show
PS. the Everet Turnpike is Route 3 on the MA. side of the line
Edited 3/18/2004 9:54 pm ET by BG
I live about 45 min. fgrom Lie-Nielsen. They are beautiful instruments and I would love to have everybody buy from a Maine company (support the local economy!). I would never buy a LN plane. They cost too much - probably worth if for the work that goes into them, but way more than you need to spend to get a good-functioning plane. (I mean, this guy says he's on a budget and can't afford LN, then gets a lot of suggestions for LN!) Plus, what are planes? TOOLS. I personally wouldn't want to have to worry about getting my plane dirty...I use old Stanleys and, believe it or not, Crafstmans. I inherited them from my grandfather who did very nice work with them. They have on occasion required a bit of tweaking, but I like maintaining/modifying/tweaking my tools. It's an honorable woodworking tradition.
And don't mind-f*ck the honing too much. (Sorry about the vulgarity, it's the word that seems to fit.) Worst case scenario is that you'll ruin a plane iron and have to buy another, but that probably won't happen. Take your time & be patient with yourself - if you don't get it right the first time it doesn't mean you're not a craftsman, it just means it's a skill you need to acquire. I grind AND hone my plane irons freehand. At this point, after years of practice, it usually works out, and if it doesn't I try again. The nice property of wood is its plasticity; if you leave plane-iron chatter or tearout you can scrape, sand, use a different plane, or chuck that piece of wood and get another.
Have fun!
lots of opinions, all valid - - if you're generally handy, pick up an old stanley #4 or 5 and work with it till it works, cheap education -
but the plane is only half the equation - being able to sharpen the iron is the other, so you need a sharpening system - you cannot skip any steps and have a satisfactory experience - - for an old tool, you'll probably have to grind the iron, a new L-N should be almost ready to go - pick a system of stones or sandpaper on glass and learn how to create a sharp edge -
good luck, have fun
Calendyr
Read Ed's post #27. Ed is correct in that sometimes people just give you a plane for no particlular reason. Ed sent me a Miller Falls #4 all the way from Mississippi to Georgia just because he had an extra and he knew I wanted one from several post I mentioned them in. Just showed up!
Send me you physical address by e-mail and let's see if the "plane-fairy" is still live and well. Sounds like you are a wee bit shy of tools at the moment as you are just starting. You never know where that "plane-fairy' will show up next. Sometimes good things just show up in a plain, brown wrapped package. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Regards...
sarge..jt
Proud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
LOL! I did not know about the existance of the plane fairy :) Things you learn by visiting forums ;) Hehehe
I wanted to email you but your email is not entered in your visible profile. So here it is:
1-5140 Saint-Michel
Montreal, Quebec
Canada, H1Y2C5
... never know, maybe santa will join in too ;)
Edited 3/19/2004 1:21 pm ET by Calendyr
Well lots of comments, better go through it in one post ;)
Thank you, I will check for spay adhesive. Should not be hard to find at home depot.
As for LN planes, I dont doubt they are really good. Lots of you seems to agree on that. But on the other hand if I don't have the skill to use them, I doubt they will be that much better than say Stanley planes. I am sure that somewhere down the line I will most likelly get one or more of them, but in the meantime, I can get 3 other tools for the price of that one. Since I am still missing a lot of tools, my immediate goal is to cover all my bases so I can do projects without having to stop every 2 steps for lack of X or Y tool. Also I am really not a collector, I am a down to earth guy who likes value. No brass or gold plated part of a tool will make me buy it ;)
As for volonteer work, I am just starting out. So when I have some skills I might look into that, in the meantime I don't want people hurt by my lack of skills ;) hehehe
I checked Stanley's website. #7 is no longuer produced ;( So I think I will look at a #5 to start with.
Calendyr, the old stuff is MUCH better then the new Stanley planes. Instead of buying a new Stanley, get one fron before the Korean war. Usually cheaper, and the fit and finish is a lot better. Ebay is a good source, as are estate auctions, garage sales ect. You could buy one from Ebay and have it sent to Mike Taylor, then when he's done, you'll have a better plane then new, for not much money.
http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mike_in_katy/PlaneWood/Default.htm
I highly recommend his work, great prices too.
Steve
edit to add : Heck you could probably even talk him into a deal on that #8 he was going to list on Ebay, 30 posts or so before this one.
Edited 3/19/2004 2:34 pm ET by Dirt Stirrer
Calendyr
Confirm:
Calendyr
1-5140 Saint Michel
Montreal, Canada
Hotel-one-Yankee-two-Charlie-five
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
WOW! Could not post for days. Had to change browser software to be able to... sorry about the delay.
Address is good. Might want to put in Quebec in there though.
Montreal is the city
Quebec is the province (like a state but in Canada)
I think it would work without it because of the postal code, but I am not sure.
Anyone ever had a problem when posting? The posting page would appear but I could not click in the the message section to type in my message... wierdest thing I have ever seen. Works great with Opera but Explorer will not let me post anymore...
Calendyr
No problem on the address. I did need the province though. I have a lot of contact with Canadian customers everyday and know the Canadian postal system pretty well. I will mark the outside of the package and put a note inside stating a gift.
Try to get it wrapped and sent this week-end! Don't anyting about the computer system as I'm illiterate with them. The First Lady is the chief repair officer at my house-hold. Well, with the computer anyway. Everything else is just handed to me with the phrase, "it's broke, fix it..... ple-e-e-e-e-ase!!
ha.. ha...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Calendyr
Need to add something. By adding the frog angle and bevel angle on a low-angle plane, you get the effective cutting angle. The frog angle on a standard bench plane is 45 degrees. The bevel is down, so the angle of the bevel doesn't affect the cutting angle. The bevel on a low-angle goes up and it does. That's where you add the frog and bevel angle.
For a standard bench plane ( #3-#8) the standard frog angle is 45 degrees. The back of the iron makes contact at the tip of the iron at 45*, same as the frog as the bevel faces toward the rear or heel. To change the cutting angle on the bench plane, you have to either add a 50*, 55* or 60* frog. Very few planes have them available. The LN does have a 50* for it's #4 1/2.
How most of us do it is to add a micro "back-bevel" on the back of the iron that is normally flat. By adding a 5* back-bevel, you changed the effective cutting angle to 50*. ( 5* + 45*=50*, you add back-bevel to the frog angle of 45*). You have steepened it. A 10* back-bevel would make the ECA 55*, etc.
Sounds confusing, but it is not. Just remember that a low angle plane has the bevel up. A bench has the bevel down or towards the rear of the plane. By adding a micro back-bevel you steepen the angle by the degree of back bevel you add. This is not as ideal as having a proper frog that is steeper than the standard 45*, but it works. The draw-back to the back-bevel it it weakens the tip of the iron slightly as metal has been taken away in that critical area that actually makes contact and chatter could result if you have a thin iron.
Sorry if I confused this morning. I get in a hurry trying to get ready for work. I caught myself on the way to work.
Chow at 06:00 hrs. Don't be late.. ha.. ha...
sarge.jt
Proud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Like Dirt Stirrer, I have been through several hundred planes, mostly Stanleys. Repaired, restored, fettled, sharpened, honed, etc., etc., etc. A great education. Lesson learned? Go buy Lie Nielsen -- if you want to plane wood. If you want to restore, repair, fettle, and otherwise play with the tool, stay with the Stanleys.
I have enjoyed repairing and restoring the Stanleys. But when I got serious about cutting wood I knew the answer was LN.
Alan - planesaw
At one time I had twenty or so very fine wooden planes.
I only used 2. A scrub plane to rough stock down to size. A 12" plane for smoothing.
The work you do should determine what planes you should buy.
Haaaa so good to be able to post again ;) hehehehe never take anything for granted I say.
Anyhow, I am good with computers but this one just bugs me.... I have no idea why it did that... wierdest thing I have ever seen ;)
Well Sarge if you need help with computer maybe I can return the favor... as long as its not about not being able to post here hehehe!
Well I am not really into fixing and repairing tools. I like when you take the tool and it does what it is supposed to... so you guys are starting to convince me about LN planes ;) By the way any of you make money talking about them? You should you know ;)
I decided to buy a honing guide... I tried my best to do it free hand with a sand paper system... the blade is sharp... but it's not razor sharp. Maybe I did not grind it enough but I am thinking I am varing the angle slightly as I move it and so it is rounder than it should be. I am using grits 80, 120, 220, 320, 800 and 1500. Is that ok or should I change something?
Also I purchased a grinding stone at a discount store. Doesnt say if it is an oilstone or waterstone... how can I tell? It has one grit on one side and an other on the backside. The rougher of the two is dark gray and the smooter is light gray. Not sure what it is made of or what type of grit it is equivalent to... it is so smooth compared to sand paper. Anyhow, any guesses would be welcome ;)
The D and S web site, go to Google, enter Scary Sharp, gives all the information. Don't skip any grits, use Al. oxide, and silicone carbide wet or dry like he says.
The last "Popular Woodworking" has a plan for a simple wooden jig so you can repeat the bevel settings on the honing guide. Bevel angles don't have to be exactl. A honing guide is essential for most people, and squareness and repeatability are too.
Aflat suface is essetial, and I mean flat.
Ln tools are unaffordable in Canada, where I live, but I have a few and they are well worth it in my opinion.
I would not use that stone you have except on axes or something.
Respecfully
Ken
Calendyr,
Those grit levels (up to 1500) are fine but I think you will see a world of difference if you go a bit farther. I go one step farther and use a #4000 grit waterstone....and finish up with leather strop and green rouge. Every hour or two I re-strop....and every week or so I do a quick #4000 and then strop.....the key is I really feel the increased sharpness when I go back to planing....
Edited 3/25/2004 6:33 am ET by BG
Morning Calendyr,
Hey if you do get some LN iron, you might want to go through Fine Tool Journal to order it. I know this was suggested a few posts back too, but I got there new flyer yesterday, and they really are cheaper. Initial prices are $10 to $20 lower then the LN site, and you get free shipping. Sounds good to me, I think I'm going to order a #164. Here is the link:
http://www.finetoolj.com/LN
Oh, you better get to work deciding how your going to store 50 planes, you'll have them in a few years. Have a good one,Steve
I purchased spray adhesive and glued the sand paper to a particule board covered with plastic laminate... You know stuff they use to make cheap furniture. I heard it was the flatest thing one can get besides glass and marble slabs.
I want to get glass but did not want to hunt for it the other day. I plan on buying a piece of thick glass for it.
I searches a few tool stores today and none carried honing guides. None carried planes either, I think stores have completelly converted to powertools now. I know that home depot has them so I will have a look next time I go. I saw one for 25$ a few weeks ago. Will have to check if it is adjustable.
I will also check that site to make jigs, might be a good solution since a honing guide is something really simple to start with.
My plan is to get 1 Plane for a while and purchase a few blades I will prepare with various angles for various tasks. I will have questions about this later on I am sure ;)
So that stone is junk? Why? I dont know much about them but a stone is a stone no? Dont want to argue since I am sure you know a lot more about this than I but I am trying to understand what make you say (write) this. To the touch I would say grit would be around 600-800... what makes it worst than sand paper of the same grit?
Thanks for the advices btw ;) I read a lot but I always have questions when I am done reading ;) Trying to find an affordable class in my area.
Calen
Sorry for butting in, but I believe what Dirt was referring to on that particular stone that it is an oil-stone. There is absolutely nothing wrong with an oil-stone. Well... at least if you have a good one. The problem with most now are they are not good ones. The best is probably a very hard Black Arkansas. The supply has dwindled in the last 30 years and the real thing is very expensive.
The problem with any cheap stone is it will cup and wear very easily. When it does, you get a surface that is not condusive to getting a proper flat surface on your iron, chisel, etc. You have to constantly flatten the stone to get decent results. To coin an old American phrase, "It's a pain in the *ss".
The sandpaper on a flat surface is a cheaper and easier alternative at the starter level. It's easy to use and hard to blow the results. I think Dirt was just trying to steer you away for frustration with working with a cheap stone that is difficult to maintain. I agree with him. Get the sharpening down quickly and on to the real task of learning plane basics.
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Sarge,
A case of mistaken identity I think. Not me talking sharpening, check my post to Calendyr. I agree with you on the oil stone. My Grandpa showed me how to use one, and they can be very effective. I use diamond stones now, but mostly the same idea, just better. Have a good evening,Steve
Hehehe sorry, I just answer to one of the messages and reply to everything at once. Forgot to change the To Field to ALL... sorry about that ;)
Ok thanks, I have read that you have to re-flaten stones often. I agree if is probably a pain to use compare to other methods. As for sharpness, I was trying to shave a few hair on the back of my hand. Maybe I am expecting too much? If it is razor sharp it should be able to shave... right? ;)
It is my intent to have at least 4 irons, I am thinking a #4, #5, #7 if I can get my hands on one and low angle block plane. Will see after that. I already have a cheap Low Angle Block Plane (Stanley 253) but I think I will get a better one, the adjustment is a pain.
Dirt
At my age, mistaken anyhthing is the norm! I should have scrolled back and see who made the post, even though if that's the biggest mistake I ever made I would consider myself fortunate.
If you want to see a complete list of my mistakes, e-mail my wife. Just kiddin' as she's actually an angel to put up with my constant "kiddin" around. ha.. ha...
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Sarge,
LOL, I thought my wife was odd for keeping score on me, glad to know others are having the same experience!
For the record, if she were to catch wind of me trying to justify those expensive LN chisels over on the other thread, she'd probably bop me up along side the head, and remind me that there are better ways to blow chunks of change.
Have a good weekend Sarge, always fun throwing ideas around here with you,Steve
I received the Plane yesterday night.
Thank you, I will try to find time (and wood) to do some work with it this week-end.
What type is it? I believe it is a Jackplane but it might be a bit small for that? I am not familiar enough to identify them yet ;) From the angle of the blade I am confident it is not a low angle so that rules out a smootplane #4 right? So... #5?
Anyhow.... hehehe... any advice on how to master it? I think I will buy some wood with no intent but learn. Won't be frustrating if I make mistakes that way ;) Perhaps make shelves or something... what do you think is the best way to start with 0 skill?
Also are blades universal? I wanted to buy 2 more and use different angles for different work.
Will keep you posted on progress (or lack of) ;)
You might want to give me your address as well, who knows maybe the computer equipment fairy will drop by your place one of these days ;)
Calendyr
It is a #4 smoother. Most #4's are around 10" to 10 1/2". I think you might be a bit confused on the low-angle take. A standard smoother is not low-angle. A low-angle smoother has a effective cutting angle of 37 1/2 degrees, It is used on end-grain and shooting mitres. The standard smoother with bevel angle and frog angle combined is 45 degrees. If you adjust the bevel to get 50 degrees, you have a York pitch which is used for wilder grained hard-woods. If you get really squirrelly grained wood such as birds-eye maple a high angle pitch of 60 degrees is even better. Don't even worry about that aspect at this point. Start with the basics.
I would suggest you purchase or check out at the library a good hand-plane book. The one by Hock comes to mind. Then learn the basic principles and practice them. Fiddle with the plane on scraps. Use hard-wood, soft-wood, figured wood and pay attention to what the results tell you. You will learn not only to read the plane, but the wood and the experience will take you in the right direction.
Don't expect a tremendous amount from that plane I sent you. The throat is wide and the way it's made hard to close up that gap. This is just a learner and fiddler. If I let you use my Veritas #4 1/2 after you used that smoother, you would see the difference in night and day! You will understand soon. Play, fiddle, practice and enjoy. Ask questions here if you get stumped, but make them good questions after you have run into something you can't figure yourself.
BTW, don't get extra irons for that plane. Save it for when you decide to jump up in quality. You will, where you realize it at this point or not. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Go For It!!!
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Ok then ;) Will give it a try. I purchased a honing guide. It's fixed angle at 25 degrees. They had nothing else. So I guess I will have to make jigs for other angles I want.
Well I dont understand the combined angles yet but after I read a book on planes it will be easier. So far after reading... 6 books the only thing I know is that planes are useful for smoothing... not exactly detailed info hehehe!
I am eager to see how a smoother plane handles knots ;) My block plane just stoped dead when I hit one... since I am working on pine at the moment... lets just say frustration has a new meaning for me ;)
Calendyr
If you have the Stanley cheap block plane with the less than 1/8" iron, you will stall on the pine knot. The knot is where a low angle block comes in. You need a thick blade to reduce chatter and very, very sharp. The low-angle takes a very thin slice as the knot is very dense. It helps to skew ( attack at a basic 45 degree angle). This actually reduces the angle on any plane as you will discover soon.
There's a lot of little tricks and a lot of info to absorb. As with any journey, you take it one step at a time! ha.. ha...
Keep diggin'
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Calnedyr
Missed something last night. You said you bought a honing guide that has only a 25 degree angle. That will only serve for bench chisels which it is appropriate for. Also for low angle planes. They use a bevel of 25 degrees.
You said you didn't understand how you derive at the cutting angle that is effective for a particular plane. Let's say you have a low-angle smoother, low-angle jack or l/a block. The effective cutting angle is around 37 1/2 degrees.
The bevel is done at 25 degrees. The fixed frog in the low angle planes is 12 1/2 degrees. Add 25 and 12 1/2 and you have 37 1/2 degrees. That is how you derive at the cutting angle (combined frog and iron bevel). Determine you frog angle and then you know what angle to hone the bevel for a 45* regular, 50* York or 55* or 60* high pitch.
Learn the components of the plane. Stare at your plane and determine how they all inner-relate. If you don't understand and have a solid foundation, the roof is going to be a mite shakey.
That completes todays block of instruction. Chow is served at 17:00 hrs. Don't be late! ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Calendyr,
In case you missed it, there was a great idea for setting the honing angle of the blade on a honing jig in this issue of FWW.....just use a piece of scrap wood to mark and register the length of blade in front of the jig.....great repeatability and very easy to do....
Thank you Sarge, lots of good information there.
These addons sounds like a great idea. Yes they might not be as good as a plane with the angle you want but you can modify any plane with it and save a lot of money.
I have read several time people talking about shatter... what is that? The blade actually breaks? Hard to imagine until that appends I guess, so far I have only worked with pine so perhaps on harder woods it would be different.
Calendyr
I see 15Broad got you covered on the chatter situation and sprocket has added a thought on water-stones. I also have switched from water-stones all the way to sand-paper. Well, almost anyway. I use the steps with sandpaper up to 1200 grit wet-dry and then finish with a 8000 water-stone and a stroping with green rouge.
The draw-back to water-stones is they cup and you have to flatten. Also you have to sub-merge them under 6000 grit. There is no problem flattening one. I let them dry and shade the surface with a pencil. Then I use sand-paper on glass. When the pencil mark is gone, it's flat and only takes minutes.
The 8000 grit stone is not sub-merged. You just wet it before use and work up a slight slurry with a small nagura stone. You don't have to work the 8000 grit hard or very long. The real work was done before it hit the 8000 stone. It's just the final iceing on the cake. You're basically polishing at that point. The green jewelers rouge on a leather strop just takes it a wee bit farther.
Once you do an initial lapping of the plane iron or chisel, touching up is a snap with a 8000 grit or just a strop in certain cases. If the iron tip becomes pitted or worn back, you have to re-grind a new bevel and the process starts over again.
Regards...
sarge..jtProud member of the : "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
So would exerting less pressure reduce the risk of shatter? Or do you have to use that pressure to work?
Water stones might do a good job, well most sharpening systems do if you use them well from what I understand. A combination of both sand paper and water stones might be a good idea. What turned me off initially was the fact you needed to flatten your stones when your used them... seems like working twice to me ;)
I know that masters can make really hard things look easy, it is the same with any discipline. I am passed that age where speed is the important part. Now I take my time to do things... perhaps too much of it sometimes ;) Over thinking can be just as bad as doing things mindlessly. Hehe ;) But I understand what you mean by the grandpa example.
Well, dinner break over, time to head back to work, enjoy your evening sirs ;)
To reduce the risk of chatter keep the iron sharp. I always start by hitting the sharpener before I go to the wood. If I notice it starting to chatter I know it's past time to touch up the edge. I also always start out with the iron drawn up into the sole and gradually feed it down on a piece of scrap until I get the kind of shaving I want across the width of the blade. Planing should only make you red in the face when it's the fiftieth time you've checked flatness and the damn thing is still not flat, which is to say that yes, it's moderately physical work but you shouldn't be straining to move the plane across the piece...unless, I suppose, if you're being really aggressive with a scrub plane.
As to the combination of paper and rocks...try it on scissors. I've been thinking of doing the same thing, hoping that a 6 or 8k stone and/or a strop would help a bit. 1500 paper has done me well but I think it's gotta be worth a try.
I agree that when someone is doing something they know how to do it looks easy. I'm an automotive technician at an import dealer and people are constantly telling us how amazed they are by our skills but remember - we spent a long time developing those skills. I'm far from an expert woodworker, but so far (outside of the design side of it) woodworking seems to be mainly cutting to the line and we all learned that in Kindergarten, and if I'm not mistaken it was darn hard to do then too. Keep at it, I figure it's gotta get easier eventually
Yep, keeping irons sharp, that is what seems to be the key for most of this trade ;)
I would not say would working is easy or simple. That is what I believe before I started reading. My understanding was that you needed to purchase the right wood, cut with precision and voila! you have a beautiful piece at a fraction of the price you would pay to purchase it already done... Then I learned about wood movement and did some actual work and had a check with reality ;) hehehe
But yes, practice makes perfect if you take the time to understand the mistakes you make and try not to repeat them.
Calendyr,
I think you're thinking of someones else's post, I'm no scary sharp guru. I think it was BG maybe? However, there are a jillion ways to get something sharp, and you should do what works for you. Listen to Sarge's advice here.
I just use diamond stones, cause they are quick, but there are no doubt better methods. I heard a great bit of advice once, on how to tell when you blade is sharp. Set it on your finger nail at the angle at which you do the work. If it slides, not sharp, if it sticks, sharp. Simple and works well enough.
As for jigs and stones, I asume you are talking about oil stones, my Grandpa showed me how to sharpen with an oilstone and no jig, and it works. Don't discount this method because you hear something else. Remember, a jillion different ways. Sorry I'm not more help here, but if you want to hear my method, let me know.
As for using different angles on the same plane, like Sarge mentioned in a previous post, I think you'll get a usefull tool. In the long run, I bet you lean towards a seperate plane for each task, but for now, good idea. Have a good evening,Steve
Hey Calendyr, I was reading through your post and it reminded me of how I accidentally got started using hand planes about 15 years ago. I started with a Stanley 110 similar to what you are talking about that had no screw feed for the blade adjust. It IS possible to do decent work for some uses especially clear softwood or something small.
You are asking a lot of questions which tells me you are one the learning curve for sure.
Garage sales, flea markets, ebay, antique stores, estate sales and auctions and elderly family members are all potential sources of great old hand planes. The Stanely Bailey #4 or #5 bench planes are a good place to start as you can due many planing tasks with them...hence the name "Jack" plane. You might want to splurge on something really great early on in your learning curve just to see what can be attained and to self-teach the difference between below average, acceptible and incredible results.
I purchased a new "Primus E.C.E. smoothing plane about 10 years ago and love it. I mostly set it aside because I learned early on that using it for the wrong application could damage the tool. You feel like a klutz when you take a chunk out of the sole of your 100$ tool but when you mangle the blade on a Stanley #5 that you paid 10$ for and then successfully resharpen it, go back to work and accomplish the task you set out to do successfully...then suddenly you feel an intuitive bond to grandpa. I think you know what I mean.
Here are a few random things I have found helpful (in no particular order):1) Get a veritas honing guide, start using it on whatever sharpening system you have. Set your rough ground bevel flush with the surface and leave it that way until you are done...way, way awsome results. 2) Try Japanese water stones. I have the cheapies (King brand) There are fancier ones out there but while you're learning you don't care. 800grit, 1000grit, 1200 grit and maybe a 6000 grit will take you far. 3) Save your money and invest in a coarse diamond stone (220 grit or 325) you'll need that to restore you water stones to flat after you hollow them out by bearing down excessively hard with your Veritas honing guide down the middle of the stone (remember...What would grandpa do? 4) Don't mangle something if you're not sure what you're doing. Come back to this forum often and ask plenty of questions!) I told my dad he could hammer on the rivet that holds the adjuster on the frog in order to snug up the slop. The next time I saw him he showed me where he whacked the rivet so hard and not placing the back of the rivit against an anvil...the he broke the thin part of the frog right off...now he has a parts plane. 5) learn how to use a bench grinder, they speed things up considerably. There is risk involved but hey, lets not get paranoid here! Seriously, you might search more in the metalworking world for insights here, I think many woodworker's are stuck in the "this is hand-tool woodworking paradigm"...forget about "LN worship" and get busy! Think outside the box...blah blah ...6) handplane construction lumber. You can get surprisingly satiny clear wood this way. Its cheap, useful and you learn a ton this way. Just learning to identify the little machine marks from power planers and how to cleanly remove them without tearout is a quantum leap in itself. 7) Learn to hand lap the soles of your planes. This is one area that the cheapies do really stink at. You'll have to experiment here. The idea is to get the toe, throat and heel all in the same plane without any gaping high or low spots. Teach yourselt and post what works for you. I think the best results I had with this involved sticky sandpaper on plate glass then going back and forth, then diagonally in a 30 degree cross-hatch pattern on dry paper, sucking up the dust with a shop vac and changing to new paper when its time (a pain but necessary). 8) Allow your zen masterpeice to evolve gradually over time, through lots of sleep, contemplation of why all of this is necessary and thinking more about your grandpa. (Seriously). 9) Buy Hock blades for your planes, you can't go wrong, especially when on clearance. Hell, buy the blade first, then go scour the junk-o-rama until you find the plane that it works with. 10) If you've been mastering steps one through three then maybe you can hone the bevel on your new Hock replacement blade like a perfect mirror, this would be excellent for you to do! But remember: no faceted bevels or rounding over, and use that honing guide unless you have the ability to hold the bevel ABSOLUTELY flat at ALL TIMES, this is something that only grandpa could do apparently. 11) By all means use your black and decker workmate (we all have them) and use that little bench to make your new bench because you're going to need one now 12) Learn how to make things flat now.This is not just a woodworking thing. You'll need a good square and a serviceable straightedge here (Starrett is always a good way to go). 13) Stay humble, your pursuit is going to be a bit esoteric, others won't necessarily value your work...but that's O.K.
I have to go now,
good luck and be safe
Bill (a.k.a. Sprocket)
Hello Sprocket,
I am not too sure about water stones. I read a lot about sharpening and from what I read sandpaper seems to the be the fastest way to do it. I dont want to spend hours sharpening because I find it tedious ;) So if sandpaper is faster, that would be a good solution for me even if it is more expansive on the long run.
Unfortunatelly I never had the chance to learn any wood working from my grand dad. He died when I was really young, he did love to work wood, I remember from him having a bench saw made out of wood and a lot of woodworking tools in the garage and also a tiny chair he made for me when I was about 4 years old ;) But his wisdom and knowledge passed with him so I have to start from scratch. On the bright side information is not something easy to obtain. I have read several books and have access to this forum visited by experts and fans of woodworking. So I am sure that with time and experience I will be able to do at least decent work.
Right now I have no plan to sell my work. Just want to do stuff for myself. That might change but we will see. I am very critical and am a perfectionnist, that can be a problem but I will try to go easy on myself ;) Hehehe
Hey! Lots to know, eh? Unless I'm mistaken, the word you're trying to define is 'chatter' and it's exactly what it implies. The iron will actually vibrate on the wood leaving very ugly marks, generally about 1/16" apart (but that can probably vary). I've found it happens most often for me when planing hard wood like maple...especially if the iron is in need of a visit to the sharpener, or happens to be one of the tinfoil ones that come in the way cheap planes (assuming the plane is tuned so that the iron has enough support from the frog). It also seems to be something that builds on itself meaning that a little chatter on the first stroke can become a lot of chatter by the fifth, perhaps it's hard on the edge to bounce around like that... Anyhow, bottom line is that you'll know it when it happens but don't confuse it with 'skip' which is when the entire plane leaves the surface. That seems to only happen if too thick a shaving is taken, causing you to exert excessive force on the back of the plane which in turn reduces the amount of control you actually have over the tool.
Hope I helped. Chris
Hello,
Thanks for the interest in another's opinions on handplanes and sharpening in particular. In my mind sandpaper is no substitute for Japanese waterstones. You can do a lot of great things with sandpaper, but you can't do it ALL with sandpaper. I'm sure there are plenty of folks who would disagree but I believe you can attain razor sharp, mirror polished edge best with waterstones. You might check Leonard Lee's book "The Complete Book of Sharpening" for an excellent explanation of some of the microscopic things that are going on with different sharpening systems. One thing I noticed about silicon carbide sandpaper on a flat surface is that it leaves a bright, shiny surface compared to a matte, dull looking surface for the waterstone. Now at first you might conclude that the shiny one is "sharper" than the dull one, but in actuality you would be wrong. The japanese stones float material away with less friction and less clogging of the stone. The stones are soft, yes, but with time you learn how to distribute the honing pressure over the entire stone to preserve its flatness. Japanese waterstones never leave a wire edge, there just isn't one. Sandpaper, like india or Arkansas oilstones require some extra pressure because they don't cut well continuously. I have used 3M wet-or-dry silicon carbide sandpaper on a granite surface plate up to 2000 grit and it excells for lapping big flat surfaces but often the bevel ends up slightly rounded and slightly less sharp. Also, I would have to say that the idea that Japanese waterstones are slower is not really a statement I agree with. They are messier yes, but once you get a system and stick with it, its probably faster than anything else. The reason is because of the way the stone never clogs or slows down. As the worn particles wash away, new particles take over. I notched a long peice of cedar to fit my kitchen sink, then dadoed to little strips of oak and held them in place with some stainless steel woodscrews such that it securely and snugly holds my 1000 grit (and 1200 grit) stones. I can flood the surface with as much water as I need and my messes aren't as bad. I could go on and on about why I think waterstones can't be beat, I think I made my point. You might do a google search on "Shapton" waterstones. These have to be the most expensive ones I've seen but they are on to something and I think that the asking price is probably justified for someone who really knows about this.
As for my odd, references to Grandpa....I must admit, I really didn't learn any woodworking from my grandpa, I guess I was just making up a fictitious grandpa to illustrate a point about the value of experience as a teacher. Anyone who is a veteran at a skill tends to work in an unhurried, yet knowledgable way. Often this is mysterious to a novice, whose pride and arrogance create barriers to the answers that are only apparent after the preconceptions are either validated or dispensed with. I guess I see hand-tool woodworking as a link to craftsmen who were wise before I came along. Its odd that you can do something way more valuable with tools that you pay almost nothing for, while at the same time our society is some kind of consumer apocolypse where you can purchase big time powertools and slap together crudely, objects that are very far removed from any palpable tradition. Its crazy, but most people have an innate "kinesthetic sense" that they long to tap in to...This is where my reference to sleep comes in: each experience you have creates new insight, this insight is exploited the next time that skill is exercised, but only in a relaxed way. Heavy handedness or even being hurried can be detrimental. Using your new skills proficiently, opens up new areas of possibility, frequently contradicting preconception.
I realize that this is a long post, calendyr, but something about your perseverence to find the answers to some of your queries brought these thoughts to my mind.
By the way: Fine Woodworking has a fine video by Mario Rodriquez on handplanding. I bought it and review it from time to time. Often I think about how some issue that he is explaining is the same one that I faced and couldn't solve without poor results. There is a man in my hometown of Dayton, Ohio who has done handplaning demonstrations at the Artistry in Wood show for many years. I believe he has Parkinson's disease now or maybe he had a stroke because he now has very severe hand tremors. Yet, he can prep the wildest looking, most unpredictable cross-grained wood into a thing of beauty, with a relaxed, purposeful ease that baffles the imagination...
Take care...
Bill C. (a.k.a. Sprocket)
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled