Grizzly’s new saw and a riving knife
jeffdc
| Posted in Power Tools and Machinery on
Folks,
I saw this posted elsewhere in the FWW site:
“Grizzly Industrial introduced a 12-in. cabinet-style tablesaw, called the Extreme Series, which features a European-style riving knife and a 3-phase motor with a price tag of just under $2,000. “
Anyone have additional info? I searched the Grizzly site and didn’t find a thing. I’m interested in a saw with a riving knife, and the only other 2 I’m aware of are the Powermatic 2000 and the Sawstop. I imagine the Grizzly would be a good value.
Thanks!
Replies
there are a lot of Euro saws that have riving knives. Actually I believe it is the law there. And they arent all those giant panel sliders either.
Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
It is also against the law there to use a dado blade.
Give and take.Rennie
A man is a fool if he drinks before he reaches the age of 50, and a fool if he doesn't afterward. Frank Lloyd Wright
I was aware of the European saws - however, I wanted to buy a saw that could be easily serviced in the US. I can actually check out the Powermatic locally, and I've seen the Sawstop. There's a Grizzly outlet about 4 hours from where I live, and Grizzly seems to offer a good value/quality combo. Thus my interest.....
Riving knife, schmiving knife. The last thing I would base a table saw purchase on is the inclusion of a riving knife. It seems to be the current buzz word for table saws. Sure, it travels up and down with the blade, which is convenient. And yes, it sits a little closer to the back of the blade than a conventional splitter, but if anyone can prove to me that the extra half-inch or so difference prevents a kerf from closing enough more to increase the possibility of kickback, I'll go out and buy a saw equipped with a riving knife.Please don't misunderstand me. I think it's good feature, and I'm glad that some manufacturers are now adding it to their products, but it's not the Second Coming many seem to be positioning it as. While I sometimes work on the table saw in ways some would judge unsafe, I use the splitter whenever possible, and think it goes farther than any device in preventing accidents. If you have the budget for a Saw Stop, buy one. It seems like a great product. But if you buy something without a riving knife, please don't feel like you're running with scissors every time you make a cut. Stay alert, practice proper procedure, and and you'll work safely -- every time. Statistics can be deceiving; there are many table saw injuries, and there are many people who work for years without incident (you just don't hear their stories).
I gotta with Mike B. Riving knives are nice, but it wouldn't be very high up on the list for me. If I was in the market today I would buy a Saw Stop for sure, other than that a PM66, Unisaw, Grizzly or Jet would do (in that order). If your budget dosen't allow for the Saw Stop get the best saw you can for the money you can spend. I have a Unisaw with an over head blade gaurd and a quick release splitter. I too can't believe that the little difference a riving knife make would matter. I have ripped thousands of feet of lumber this year alone, and never have had a kick back in 6 years.Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
I agree with Mike & Mike. A riving " whatever " is not going to prevent your hand from sliding under the guard. What we need is a riving " thingie " and a fixed guard/crown guard that won't let your hand slide into the blade. My shop built, ceiling mounted blade guard is rock solid and won't let your hand near the blade. If you need a quick release splitter just modify an old one by cutting off the rear portion and just using the front part that mounts under the plate. Been there, done that, works great.DJK
Gee Mike,
"if anyone can prove to me that the extra half-inch or so difference prevents a kerf from closing enough more to increase the possibility of kickback, I'll go out and buy a saw equipped with a riving knife."
After using a rip saw with a riving knife, I've had boards close up on me due to case hardening/drying stresses and close onto the back of the blade. I don't know how many have jammed onto the riving knife, saving a kickback that would have happened if the board jammed and closed onto the blade - at a wild guess, about 20-30 over the last 5 years.
So, as elsewhere, that 1/2" (more like 2" on a thick board) makes all the difference.
I suppose you'd better go and break the wallet open. (and no, riving knives don't stop kickback, but they do help control one of the main causes.)
Cheers,
eddie
"I don't know how many have jammed onto the riving knife, saving a kickback that would have happened if the board jammed and closed onto the blade"Hello Eddie,Thanks for your reply. Perhaps mine is unique (PM 66 with stock splitter), but when the blade is set for 3/4" stock (a bit over 1" -- just enough to clear the chips), the bottom of the splitter is 15/16" from the back of the blade. When I raise the blade for deeper cuts, it gets closer still to the splitter. So, I'm not sure how a kerf that jams on a knife would not do the same on my splitter. I'm not doubting your word, just not convinced enough to open my wallet.
Hello Eddie,
I purchased an Inca 259 over twenty years ago. At the time I did not even know what a riving knife was. It did not take long for me to understand how useful and handy a riving knife was. Properly set, the knife clears the back of the blade, form slightly (maybe a sixteenth of an inch or less) less than top dead center down. Because the knife is just below center it need not be removed for non-through cuts. Just out of curiosity, I purposefully made a rip cut in a board and let it go to see what would happen. Nothing! The board just sat there, the blade spinning happily along. Mind you, I don't recommend this rather reckless test be conducted by anyone, but it did sell me on virtues of a well engineered riving knife. Sadly, I sold the Inca about a year ago, I needed a larger machine with a tilting blade as opposed to a small tilting table. I love my new Unisaw, but really miss the riving knife. I am not trying to sway your opinion, just relating my experience with a riving knife equipped saw. If I could have found a riving knife equipped saw, in the same price range as my Unisaw, I would have bought it!
Bob, Tupper Lake, NY
Wow! I'm impressed with the amount of discussion my query about the Grizzly (and of course its riving knife) generated! I'll be curious to see what the other manufacturers are preparing for us - it's obvious that at least part of the market is willing to pay a premium for safety features like the riving knife and blade stop mechanisms (Sawstop has this to itself for a while). I'm just glad that we're finally being given some purchase options.Thanks,
Jeff
Hey, MikeB, I didn't mean to start a religious war on riving knives! To me, their value seems obvious - I've seen the stats, I've seen kickbacks happen, and buying a saw with a riving knife is akin to buying a car with air bags - why not try and prepare yourself for the unexpected (although statistically probably) accident down the road? There is of course a point of diminishing returns - but a simple, effective feature like a riving knife makes sense to me, at least. Yes, work safe, always - but minimize your chance of a board to the head, too!Yes, Forestgirl, a quick release is key - I'm assuming Grizzly has it, because they're targeting the same market as Sawstop and Powermatic, but I haven't gotten the info yet from them.
I got a response from the author of the Pop.WWing on-line article, and yes it does have quick-release for the riving knife and guard.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Grizzly faxed me their info sheet on the saw. Some interesting things to note:$1995 price includes a right hand and rear extension table
1000 lbs for shipping (!)
quick release riving knife and guard
digital readout for blade angleunclear as to whether the fence is included, but seems to beLooks like a good value. I'll be curious to see how it performs.
Why go to all this trouble and not include on it a nice 49" sliding table
and matching cut off fence and possibly a scoring blade, to make it a true European type saw. I'm assuming because of the cost. But then we would be able to do almost everything on this saw like squaring up panels. Aren't you tired of using cut off sliders or other methods to square up your panels. Laguna, Rojeck, and Hammer currently have these, smaller price, smaller foot print saws ,and are targeting this market.I'm waiting for the American Co's to follow suit, to bring down the prices.It's nice to see that there is progress being made in these areas of safety and performance accuracy with the American and American/ Taiwanese C0's but once again they are lagging behind the Europeans. You would have thought a new Co. like Tool City Steel would have had at least some of these features on their new table saws so as to set them apart from the rest. A titanium coated table top doesn't exactly do much for me or set them apart from the pack. It will be interesting to see what the market produces in the next few years.
brownman,
Grizzly does offer exactly what you long for. Take a look at their machines toward the bottom of this page:
http://www.grizzly.com/products/mach-specs.aspx?key=530
They have "Euro-style" sliding table saws with all the bells and whistles from $3450 to $8750. So with this $2000 saw that has a "just" a riving knife, up through their top end 14" 10 HP model, they offer quite a selection and price range.
Problem is, for a company that pretty much established the low end of the price range for power tools, their mid and upper range Euro table saws cost almost as much as the combo machines (5 superb tools) from the European manufacturers. Hammer and Mini Max combo machines with 10" table saws are in the $7000 range.
Still, the Grizzly line appears to be evolving to where they truly will have really high quality equipment for every budget.
Rich
Thanks Rich
I've been looking at their stuff for some time now but I wasn't all that impressed with the quality of the Grizzly sliding saws when I saw them at the IWF woodshow in Vegas last year and I didn't want to be their guinea pig so I'm waiting a little to see how others like or dislike them. It usually takes a little while to get the bugs out. I'm just hoping other Co.'s will follow. Thanks though for thinking about my needs.
Danny
brownman,
I haven't seen the Grizzly sliding table saws.
Over the years I've seen equipment in their various lines vary from "no frills but gets the job done" up to "surprisingly capable with very good fit and finish" (particularly their joiners). I've found their bandsaw line to be the weakest.
But they have improved with every year and their equipment is anything but bargain basement any longer. I have no illusions that the sliding table saws are in the same league with Mini max or Hammer, but they sure are a huge improvement over the typical mediocre table saws that have been the only thing available to the North American buyer for so long. And I expect that they will continue to improve.
"I didn't mean to start a religious war on riving knives"You didn't start a war, and I'm not trying to stir things up. I agree that you should always try to minimize your risk, but I just think riving knives are overrated and am not ready to give up on my splitter which has performed flawlessly for almost 20 years. Good luck with your saw purchase.Mike
Mike,
I suspect that you, and many other woodworkers, don't really understand how a riving knife functions and why it adds considerably to safety.
Having a riving knife on a saw isn't a minor improvement. First of all, a riving knife isn't just a 1/2 inch closer to the blade, when the blade is set to a shallow cut, the riving knife is 2 to 3 inches closer to the blade compared to a conventional saw.
But the big advantage to a riving knife is that the knife is only 1/8", or less, away from both the back and the top of the blade at all times. Basically the entire blade except the front cutting area is shielded. Stock can't ride up and get onto the top of the blade where it can be thrown at the operator, a kickback, and the operator's hand is far less likely to strike the top of the blade if a mistake is made.
I've worked with both conventional and riving knife machines, and I've never had a major accident with either, but I feel far safer when using a machine with a riving knife.
John White, Shop Manager, Fine Woodworking Magazine
Hi John,Thank you and every one who responded to my post for your interest. I knew it would get some action. Let me qualify my response by saying that I don't think the riving knife is a bad saw component, just overrated.First, you mention that a riving knife is 2" - 3" closer to the blade when set for a shallow cut than a conventional splitter. Perhaps mine is unique (PM 66 with stock splitter), but when the blade is set for 3/4" stock (a bit over 1" -- just enough to clear the chips), the bottom of the splitter is 15/16" from the back of the blade. When I raise the blade for deeper cuts, it gets closer still to the splitter. I can't see (and haven't seen) how a board is going to pinch significantly more over the course of this small distance. Once the kerf is on the splitter or knife, it can't close or drift from the fence.You note that a knife shields the back and top of the blade at all times. I can't argue with that. It's an advantage the knife has over the splitter.You also say that a knife prevents stock from riding up and getting on top of the blade. I'm not sure I understand how that works (or buy the concept), but I believe preventing this is the operators's responsibility. Pressure down on the board with the left hand, slight pressure upward with the right if the piece starts to come off the table. I think focus is the key to avoiding kickback -- keep your mind into the cut and control it and you'll be fine.On the subject of kickback, you can significantly minimize your risk of taking one in the gut if the worst happens by standing where you're supposed to be -- close to the saw, to the left of the cut. Anti kickback pawls are effective, though I admit mine are in a box somewhere as they tend to hinder my ability to back a piece out of the cut when necessary (that should draw some fire).I have no doubt that you feel more safe working with a riving knife, and perhaps you are. I just don't think it is deserving of all the hype. On the other hand, I think the SawStop safety feature is brilliant.
"You also say that a knife prevents stock from riding up and getting on top of the blade. I'm not sure I understand how that works (or buy the concept),".... Mike
Study the picture and you will have a better idea. The forward teeth are down-chopping and are not a major culprit. But those "rear-rising" teeth are a menace and where the majority of the danger lies. And they can and will raise the stock to the top of blade which can throw it in any given direction with you as a potential target.
I added a home-made quick release "crown guard" to the top of my riving knife. The new PM and several Euro's I have seen recently have one of those plastic "thingie's" attached which would raise if stock is thrown up. To do that with the "crown guard"attached, the stock would have to hit with such force that it breaks 4 (or the top or bottom two simultaneously) 3/8" case hardened aircraft bolts.
Again, I think it is a personal choice. But for those that do not know the value of or have a riving knife and crown guard, I want to make it crystal clear just what if is and what it is capable of. Regardless of what you use, no mechanical feature can over-rule "common sense" and human pre-caution!
"The forward teeth are down-chopping and are not a major culprit. But those "rear-rising" teeth are a menace and where the majority of the danger lies. And they can and will raise the stock to the top of blade"Sarge,Thanks, and yes, I understand what the front and rear teeth are doing during a cut, but I believe it's my job to keep the stock on the table which is easily accomplished. The operator has to be in control at all times. I've had boards want to come up the blade many times. The key is focus and catching it before it gets out of hand. Again, I want to say I'm not knocking riving knives. If they had been available when I bought mine, I'd have probably gone for it. I just wouldn't base a purchase on the feature alone. My thinking on this may seem reckless to some, but after ripping on a radial arm for years, my perspective may be a little different from that of others. Mike
With apology to Mike as clarified below...
Perhaps I should have addressed the explanation of what the front and rear teeth are doing to ALL as that is who it was actually intended for. I have a feeling that there are some reading this that don't understand what role the teeth play and what a riving knife is and it's intended purpose. Even though I have been at it for 34+ years, I was not aware of what a riving knife was until about 4 or 5 years ago. I posted the pictures for those in hopes that if would clarify for those just getting started.
As I stated, I am not advocating forcing anyone to use one one as I agree that bottom line tool safety always rest on the shoulders of the user. I just think that everyone should be clear on what it is and what it was intended for. With that clear understanding, they can make up their own mind if it's a feature they would chose to have on a saw along with any other choice of features on a saw they purchase.
Again, IMO the problem lies in the fact that if you do decide "it's for you", do you chose the PM, Saw-stop, new Grizzly (2 of which has just been introduced) or one of the Euro's that start at $2000 and go drastically higher? That leaves "Mr. Average" who skips every other meal to save $1000 outside the family budget for a "week-end" hobby saw exactly where he is today, yesterday and 70 years ago.. without the option to make the decision for him or herself barring just saying NO to the current market or accepting what is and has been their Only choice under $ 2K to date.
So...... meantime, just be careful with that silly plastic thingy, or have you taken it off to get it out of the way as I did for many years? :>)
SARGE..
As pointed out, the riving knife stays the the same distance to the blade when you adjust up and down. But.. over-looked is it stays the same distance to the blade when you tilt the blade. A splitter is removed when making a 45* degree cut, a riving knife stays in action with the exception of dadoes and a few other cuts.
It's up to the individual to decide what they prefer, IMO. My question is if PM and Grizzly can change the arbor mechanism to accept, introduce and keep the cost around the same as PM did on the former saw, why can't other manufacturers that have ridden the same technology to the bank since the 1930's?
Regards...
SARGE..
"...why can't other manufacturers that have ridden the same technology to the bank since the 1930's?" Salient point, Sarge! I can understand why it wasn't introduced a few decades ago (after all, my old shop machine books have DeCristoforo wearing a trench coat while he's sawing and such, LOL) but it makes no sense that they dawdled over the last 15-20 years. Can we say it any clearer?
Give us a Riviing Knife
Give us a Quick Release Riving Knife
Give us a Quick Release, Quality Blade Guard
ROFL!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Seems like there are some similarities between the power machinery manufacturers and the auto manufacturers - ie., safety features are only introduced when the government steps in or customers scream.I'm not in the government, but I'm happy to scream.Jeff
Yep, innovation costs money and safety is boring. What the phrase they use to describe how an auto company will calculate the cost of x-number of dead or injured people vs. the cost of producing a safety feature? Can't remember.
WMH and Delta's approach to the SawStop mechanism was similar. If they were to introduce it on some saws, more people would sue when they injured themselves on unequipped saws. Therefore, it's more risky to integrate a new safety feature than it is to continue to produce saws the same ol' way.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Give us a Riviing Knife
Give us a Quick Release Riving Knife
Give us a Quick Release, Quality Blade Guard
Exactly! That what we need! The only thing I can add to this is to put them on reasonably priced saws! So far they only seem to be on the "higher end" saws, Laguna, Sawstop, Powermatic, and now a Grizzly 12". Grizzly should put it on one of their cheaper cabinet saws, or on a contractor saw and see what happens.
Although I appreciate the Sawstop system, I think a quick release riving knife/blade guard would go much further towards table saw safety. I measured it last night (after reading one of the earlier posts) and when cutting 3/4" stock on my table saw I have over a two inch gap between the back of the blade and the splitter.
I'll be honest, safety is one thing, an important thing but just one aspect of a riving knife. The main reason that I would prefer a riving knife is because I'm lazy. I don't want to have to remove my blade guard/splitter each time I want to use my crosscut sled (covers entire table). I want something that works, that I don't have to remember to put back on, and that works at any angle!--A Riving knife!
NOW...since my Jet 10" left hand cab saw didn't come with one, anyone have ANY idea how to create one? Where to attach it? I'd rather not buy all the metal shop toys either;)
Thanks in advance,
David
David,
The entire arbor/trunnion assembly needs to be engineered for mounting a riving knife, there is no way to retrofit a knife onto a conventional saw, the mounting points aren't there and the geometry of the blade raising mechanism is all wrong.
John White, Shop Manager, Fine Woodworking Magazine
Why do you have to take off the splitter for 45 deg cuts? I've never seen a saw that required that.Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
You don't Mike. My mistake as I was thinking of the after-market type that I've seen that is inserted into the table and stands alone at 90*. Sometimes I get in a hurry with an active schedule and don't sort my thoughts as well as I should before I post.
It's been a very long time since I've used a TS with the stock guard supplied. I've had a riving knife for several years and before that, frankly I took the supplied contraption off the saw. Probably not the safest thing in the world to do. But... I felt it was safer than what was supplied for several reasons. I had a stock guard fall down while making an adjustment while the saw was off. The pawls did there thing (grabbed) and fortunately only required 5 stitches at the joint of the finger.
I don't have the highest regard for the engineering concepts that was put into the stock guards that haven't changed much for a very long time. I wouldn't condone not using that guard to someone new that is not familiar with safe procedure, but I personally wouldn't use it as I question it's validity as a "safety feature". In other words, "where's the beef"?
Regards...
SARGE..
I've seen many folks here who say they don't use the splitter that came with the TS because it's "junk"... usually, this equates to 1) interferes with many cuts so has to be inconveniently installed and removed all the time and 2) hard to align with the blade which sometimes causes stock jams.
The riving knife, by contrast, doesn't generally have to be removed even for non-through cuts. I'll defer to JohnWW's analysis showing how the riving knife is better than an installed splitter, and simply point out that it's MUCH better than a splitter/guard sitting on the floor under the extension table.
I do use my crappy guard, and eat the time it takes to put on and take off, and have taken the time to align it to the blade so it doesn't cause jams. If my Unisaw had a riving knife, that'd be time in my pocket.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
I do the same. Take the time to re-install the splitter/guard assembly. That's why I use my sled so much with it's built in hand protection. But when I start a new project, on goes the guard and I rip all my sheet stock. Oh well, I'm stuck with the Jet. There is no way I could justify to the wife that I needed another $2500 just for a little inconvenience. Unless someone were to buy my Jet?! Nope she still wouldn't go for it. Harmony overrules desire.
Is this upcoming riving knife accompanied by a quick-release feature for it and the guard? Therein lies the complete package (a la PM2000). I'm kinda assuming it does, but is there more info?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Just found some more info:http://www.popularwoodworking.com/blog/First+Look+The+G0605X++This+One+Goes+To+12.aspx
Thanks, Jeff. I sent an email to the author asking about any quick-release features. Rather obvious question that I'm surprised he didn't address.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
"A man is a fool if he drinks before he reaches the age of 50, and a fool if he doesn't afterward."
Frank Lloyd WrightWhile old Frank was beyond wise, I submit that he was right only about 50% of the time.
Hey Jeff,
I thought you might want to check out the free video we just posted of Grizzly's new tablesaw. Our editor, Asa Christiana, takes a look at the saw in Grizzly's booth at IWF. It's by no means a review but it offers a close-up look at some of the features.
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/ToolGuide/ToolGuideArticle.aspx?id=27067
Matt Berger
Fine Woodworking
Thanks! I'll take a look.
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