Gibson guitar factory raided by the Feds
Woodman41
| Posted in General Discussion on
Apparently there is concern that Gibson is using endangered species.
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Replies
can you say "future price increase" ?????
as if they aren't expensive enough....when I bought my 1st Gibson it was less than a grand, now they're selling for nearly 2..... same wood, same plastic, same glue, same Nitro finish....
I remember by uncle's gibson dove when I was a kid that was a sweet sounding guitar! I played as a kid would love to get into it again. ...Advice is a form of nostalgia. Dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off , painting over the ugly parts, and recycling it for more than it’s worth – lyrics from the song wear sunscreen
Not taking sides here at all, just talking out loud.........
I've always wondered how this "chain of custody" thing works, especially if there is a not-so-scrupulous guy/gal at the start of the chain in Madagascar. You're still taking someone's word that all is well. In theory, quite fine, until the Feds knock at your door. You (in this case, Gibson) can do everything right and still be wrong.
Ultimately, Gibson is still the responsible party, yes?
Rich
"Ultimately, Gibson is still the responsible party, yes?"Not necessarily. If Gibson are able to show impeccable paperwork then it will be that they are the victims of a fraud. They have to rely on certification of the upstream suppliers by a supposedly independent body.
Apparently Gibson is pro-active in the 'chain-of-custody' part of forestry conservation. So, if their paperwork is in order, they are probably NOT responsible. They may lose their inventory of endangered lumber however.
What is happening to Gibson is a consequence of the 2008 Farm Bill which was enacted despite President Bush's veto of the bill. Included in this law is a very comprehensive regulatory regime for wood products which is a poster child for Congress' penchant for seizing regulatory power.
Here is a more detailed discussion of what is going on.
What I find really troubling about this is how Congress pushed this through with very little discussion or debate. Keep that in mind when the 2k page healthcare bill is debated this weekend.
Thanks for the link.Wow. I am sure glad I live up here. It does help the softwood war that has been raging for years. Now it is just illeagl to export any wood to the USA.I thought NAFTA was supposed to take care of all this stuff?What about all that pollen that floats across the 49th?
Softwood lumber, wheat, canola. . .you name it and if there's a political action group in the US you can bet the Commerce Department's USTR will throw up a roadblock. Canada won't really say all that much because we have much the same political pressures with regards to dairy products, eggs etc. Any politician who is seen to be caving in to the logical free market argument would be voted out of office by the marketing groups affected. It's a particularly sensitive issue is Quebec. That said, in the coming years I suspect oil and water will also be mixed into the discussions. Let's see. . .wanna trade increased water exports for access for improved access to the softwood lumber market? How about you send us more water and we won't take you to the WTO about your marketing boards? The bottom line is that its all one big ball of string and the scissors are dull!Regards,RonI prefer to learn things before I need to know them.
Don't forget, we have oil. Lots of it. As much as the Arabs, in the tar sands. Natural gas? Lots more.I am not worrying. We will either come to terms trade wise or we will become part of the US.Cheers,Peter
So, bottom line:
1. Gibson (or whoever) buys illegal lumber with chain of custody paperwork, so they are blameless.
2. Feds don't charge them, since they have been defrauded, but seize all the lumber.
3. Gibson (or whoever) buys more illegal lumber with chain of custody paperwork, so they are blameless.
4. Feds either don't find out or catch them and don't charge them, since they have been defrauded, etc., etc., etc.
"Gosh, Your Honor, this guy promised me that the white substance in this baggie was coffee creamer. How was I to know that it was really an illegal substance? Since I didn't know, I guess I'm free to go?" Maybe not a fair analogy, but I hope you get my point.
I would like to believe that Gibson was trying to do the right thing through all of this. If you mean they are not legally responsible, you may be correct, but I'm not up on the laws on this. Maybe I'm speaking ethics here. The chain of custody thing looks pretty darn tight, but I guess one can get around anything.
What sort of punishments/sanctions are bestowed upon those in Madagascar that perpetrated this alleged fraud? Probably nothing, so how does it stop? By Gibson not dealing with them any more? They'll just open shop elsewhere under a different name. Tough thing to regulate, for sure. Plus, it casts aspersions and doubts on the system as a whole, at least for me.
Rich (hey, not arguing, just talking...............) in VA
You're exactly right, Richard. The chain of custody method of forest management IS flawed! Not one single twig is saved from the chainsaw, but it sure costs a lot more to EVERYONE who handles it from forest to consumer.
The 'poacher' here may be Gibson Guitars, but I tend to think that it's some poor farmer in Madagascar that is having trees stolen from his land, or he's selling them to unscrupulous types that can launder the paperwork somewhere along the way.
The only winner in this whole thing is the "non-profit" people who call themselves forestry stewards.
What good does seizing the lumber do for the endangered species...it's already been downed. What not let someone use it?
My dear fellow, that would leave bureaucrats without a job.
You're using logic and commonsense again.Leon
Regardless if you believe in honoring other countries laws, the wood was harvested illegally. If I buy your stolen shop tools from some guy's trunk in the parking lot I should be allowed to keep them? No different than buying rustled cattle, poached venison or counterfeit software.
My Young Bride and I toured the Gibson guitar factory in Memphis three years ago. Their process of getting the wood on hand to a specified moisture content, then selecting each piece, etc. is pretty impressive. What was most interesting to me was the last test of a Gibson guitar. There is a guy who plays each and every guitar to check for sound quality. Gibson does not sell "factory seconds," so every guitar that does not pass the final test is sent to a band saw where it is cut up into tiny pieces--regardless of the species of wood. That, my friends, borders on criminal waste.
Oh brother. Where does it stop: our meddling in others' business?
Denny
The demise of an endangered species is *everybody's* business.
Very true, I agree 100% but the problem here is that there are 2 essential conditions that are missing, with the facts that we know, and that is intent and reasonable expectations. If Gibson is prosecuted for receiving illegal wood when their intent, as indicated by the document trail, was to purchase legal species and they made reasonable efforts to ensure that what they were purchasing was legal, then that would be a miscarriage of justice. It would be like you or I being charged with receiving stolen property for buying something from Wal-Mart that turns out to have come from a supplier that hijacked the original shipment.
No argument here. I was not making any statement about Gibson, only that this is not a case of interfering in other people's business. Hopefully Gibson are victims, not perpertrators.
"Hopefully Gibson are victims, not perpertrators."Good thought, I hope so as well.Rich
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