Replies

1. 
   MattInPA | Apr 19, 2008 12:44am | #1

   I don't know what Joel's stance is, but I personally hollow grind mine. They are just easier to deal with at the stones. (Note: I hollow grind everything, however.)

2. 
   Jimma | Apr 19, 2008 04:08am | #2

   Why do you ask . . . is this a concern for you, or just curious?

3. 
   joelm | Apr 19, 2008 03:22pm | #3

   No.
   THe article doesn't get into carving tools at all.
   With carving tools The stone is crowned, nicks are ground back the usual way but I would hold the tool perpendicular to the stone and roll the gouge on it's axis. The only problem with this method is it leaves a rough texture on the tool - which I don't like and we follow up a a belt sander. The method is based on the Ashley Iles system of sharpening carving tools. they use a tool held perpendicularly to the wheel on a cratex wheel. to raise a burr followed by a buff. Their method works great- and is mindboggly fast. We have that system in house for sharpening carving tools so what I describe above for a regular wheel is only used for rough shaping and I suppose if I didn't mind about a hollow grind on carving tools I might do it the same way I do regular woodworking tools.

   Joel
   http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com
1. 
   DonC | Apr 21, 2008 08:55pm | #9

   Firstly, I loved your article. Very informative. I never heard of crowning the stone. Wonderful advice.

   You posted that the article didn't address carving tools at all.

   In the last paragraph you wrote,"This technique of first grinding a square edge will help you grind an even bevel on curved tools,too, from a scrub plane (see top right) to carving and turnings gouges."

   This is why I made my original post number 1, questioning hollow ground carving tools.

   I understand now your technique is different. The last paragraph had me a little confused.

   For carving tools, I have been using a cratex wheel and belt sander for years with great success. I also have an hard felt charged wheel and a abrasive/paste charged slow turning wheel made for MDF. I got the belt sander advice from one of Tage Frid's books,"Shaping,Veneering,Finishing".

   Sometimes I also hand strop but I don't use charged leather. It is too soft and can easily round over the edge. Instead, I follow the advice of Everett Ellenwwod's "Sharpening Simplified" DVD. He recommends making the strop from the back cover of a spiral notebook or similar paper posterboard. I now have good success and seldom round over the edge.

   Joel, I think you should do a follow up article devoted to carving tools and be sure to include the "V" tool. I'm sure many readers would like it.

   I see from your website that you recommend stroping on leather without any abrasive. I will have to give that a try.

   Don

   Edited 4/21/2008 2:41 pm ET by DonC

1. 
   joelm | Apr 21, 2008 09:33pm | #10

   THe crowned wheel gives tons of control for anything. For turning tools most people use an 8" wheel to minimize the hollow.
   For carving tools, where a hollow is really not desireable, the 60 grit wheel is too course anyway. So for routine maintenance of a carving tool a Cretex wheel, a buff, even a belt sander is the preffered method. When I use a grinder on a carving tool it is to really shift geometry, and not for routine sharpening. I am glad you liked the article, and I would be happy to do a follow-up on carving tools if the editors want me to. On turning tools there are far more qualified people than I who should be doing the writing. Joel
   http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com

1. 
   KiddervilleAcres | Apr 22, 2008 04:46pm | #11

   Joel,

   I would be happy to do a follow-up on carving tools if the editors want me to

   Not an editor but would certainly like to see one.  If not for the mag. it would certainly be a great blog entry for The Woodworking Life here.

   Always lookin for new stuff,

   Bob @ Kidderville Acres

   A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!

   Edited 4/22/2008 9:46 am ET by KiddervilleAcres

1. 
   joelm | Apr 23, 2008 05:06am | #12

   THanks for the vote of support. I could do it as a blog entry. I've just only started actual carving very recently, most of my knowledge is just in the tools. Because I'm in the iron-monger business we have two major carving tool sharpening systems in house (Koch and Ashley Iles) plus belt sanders and grinders. If it doesn't become an article then I would first put it as a blog entry on my site, ( http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/blog ) and then after I have a fair amount of material on sharpening carving tools I could assemble into a long web article. At least that's a decent plan. However for sharpening carving tools Chris Pye's "Chris Pye's Woodcarving Tools, Materials & Equipment (New Edition)" which we also stock is possibly the best material ever written on the subject and I would be very hard pressed to top it. Also even if you don't carve Chris is one of the best woodworking writers out there and just a pleasure to read.
   Joel
   http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com

2. 
   KiddervilleAcres | Apr 23, 2008 03:40pm | #13

   joelm,

   To quote you: is possibly the best material ever written on the subject and I would be very hard pressed to top it.

   Your post made me think about my days in computers whilst in charge of DQA - Documentation Quality Assurance.  I spent a lot of time convincing people that the best QA is done by those who don't know the product all that well.  My hiring strategy was to hire folks with little or no knowledge of our products.

   Neophytes typically have few or no preconceived notions of how something is supposed to work.  Also, if they can make something do its thang, cetainly a knowledgeable user should have little or no problems.

   Where am I headed with all this?  Go for it!  If nothing else it will stimulate thought, conversation and the experiences of others.  This to me is the essence of blogs.  It literally gives the world a chance to participate and add to its content.  End result - everyone benefits.

   Always looking for the Win Win,

   Bob @ Kidderville Acres

   A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!

   Edited 4/23/2008 8:41 am ET by KiddervilleAcres

3. 
   joelm | Apr 23, 2008 04:04pm | #14

   I'm not actually a neophyte - I've been sharpening carving tools for years - just not actually carving.
   Also personally I hate reading articles that are basically - I did it once, it seemed to work, and here goes. It's learning by trial and error - which seems to be mostly error. I much prefer to read and learn from masters that have a perspective, ones that can also write well, like Pye, are just a pleasure to have around. My blog is informal and covers things I am learning because I am excited about them. Real articles I only do on subjects I have mastered - and I have something to add that isn't well covered elsewhere.
   Joel
   http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com

4. 
   gb93433 | Apr 19, 2008 08:39pm | #4

   The bevel surface on the back of carving tools need to be flat. It must be highly polished. The top edge needs to be honed by holding the slip from the back of the top edge near the handle and the cutting edge on top at the front. That will allow one to maintain a consistent angle on the top. The bevel and top edge can be polished with a leather strop.Be careful to not push down much with the tool into the leather because it will produce a sharp but blunt edge.

1. 
   AdamCherubini | Apr 19, 2008 10:24pm | #5

   That makes it very difficult to use the tool upside down. I think the reason you are saying this is because you can easily lose track of what the cutting angle is when you back bevel. But there's no functional reason why the bevel needs to be on one side versus the other. The wood doesn't know the difference. If the exact shape weren't an issue (say a straight carving tool), one could argue that the best edge would be a knife edge equally beveled on both sides.Somewhere in our recent history somebody said chisels and plane irons (I was talking carving tools earlier) need to have perfectly flat backs to function. I believed it too. But it just ain't so. Adam

1. 
   gb93433 | Apr 19, 2008 10:54pm | #6

   That makes it very difficult to use the tool upside down. I think the reason you are saying this is because you can easily lose track of what the cutting angle is when you back bevel. But there's no functional reason why the bevel needs to be on one side versus the other. The wood doesn't know the difference. If the exact shape weren't an issue (say a straight carving tool), one could argue that the best edge would be a knife edge equally beveled on both sides.Somewhere in our recent history somebody said chisels and plane irons (I was talking carving tools earlier) need to have perfectly flat backs to function. I believed it too. But it just ain't so. While I can see your point, I believe that the practical result is different. some of the difference can be accounted for in the amount of energy it takes to push and control the tool. It is true of metals and woods. It has been my experience that the bevel on a carving tool helps me to produce a better controlled cut than one with a short bevel. That is the reason why it is much harder to use a carving tool upside down. There are carving tools which are made to be used the other way. If I sharpen the carving tool at 20 degrees on the back then it allows for the carving tool to be used at a shallower angle to the work and results in more of the energy directed forward in a horizontal direction and not so much vertically into the workpiece.I have made hand planes that have a different ramp angle but the included angle of the plane iron was the same and the surface finish they produced was very different. The amount of energy it took to push them varied widely. Some tore the wood and others did not.

1. 
   AdamCherubini | Apr 20, 2008 12:45am | #7

   "I have made hand planes that have a different ramp angle but the included angle of the plane iron was the same and the surface finish they produced was very different. The amount of energy it took to push them varied widely. Some tore the wood and others did not." I think that's different, isn't it? With a plane you have a sole to ride. With a carving chisel, don't you kinda ride the bevel? And you can kinda control the depth of cut by rocking the tool on its bevel somewhat, providing just a scootchy (that's a technical term I think) of relief, no? When you flip the tool over, if you have even a tiny bevel, you can ride that a little. Otherwise you're flat on the back with no real control. This is certainly true of paring chisels.I'm going to listen to your reply but not respond further. I'm really not a good carver and really don't know this subject that well. Last time I had this conversation (with a very accomplished carver/sculptor) I asked whether the back bevel (which he recommended) changed the effective sweep. I didn't understand his answer. :)Adam

1. 
   gb93433 | Apr 20, 2008 01:31am | #8

   “I think that's different, isn't it? With a plane you have a sole to ride.”The angle of the iron affects the downward pressure of the plane.“With a carving chisel, don't you kinda ride the bevel? And you can kinda control the depth of cut by rocking the tool on its bevel somewhat, providing just a scootchy (that's a technical term I think) of relief, no? When you flip the tool over, if you have even a tiny bevel, you can ride that a little. Otherwise you're flat on the back with no real control. This is certainly true of paring chisels.”The carving tool rides the bevel much like a wood turning tool. I do produce a slight bevel on the top of the carving tool inside of the curve or V, etc. If I try to flip the carving tool over it seems that the small bevel makes it hard to produce a smooth even cut. If a small bevel is not on top then it is difficult to come out of a cut too. Without a small bevel on top the tool wants to perform like a chisel and continue along the same line. When I was first learning I had troubles with breaking the edge when I tried to come out of a cut. The bevel on top helps that a lot. I think a lot of the issue is with the angle of attack to the wood. If the handle of the tool has to be raised then it takes more effort to push the tool. Most of my tools are rounded at the end of the cutting edge. This prevents the tool from cutting a piece of wood that I do not want to leave a mark on. The flat bevel on the bottom is about 20 degrees. As I sharpen the tool, the bevel on top grows. As the bevel on top gets larger then it makes it more difficult to sharpen because more metal has to be removed.