I’ve heard the terms FSC or Green Tag certified wood, are they the same or different?
Also, are there green certified adhesives and finishes? Do water based finishes meet the criteria?
Thanks.
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FSC is one of the three "green labels" you might find in the US. Here is an article that explains explains the basics of green forest certification.
"Green finishes" .... more like picking out "green household cleaners." Waterbased would be more "green" than oil-based because the let fewer noxious fumes into the air. You can look up the "VOC"s (can't remember what that stands for) by reading the back of the can or looking up the MSDS for any product on-line (MSDS = Material Safety Data Sheet, each product has one).
Hope that's all right. Just starting my first cup of coffee. ;-)
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Hi forestgirl,
Volatile Organic Compounds :)
Paul
Thanks for the info and the article!
Rooms
I'm curious what everyone's thoughts are on this issue. Is "sustainable woodworking" a priority for anyone out there or even a consideration?
Here in the Northeast, we woodworkers use lumber as if it grows on trees (insert laugh track). Basically, there doesn't seem to be much interest in sustainable woodworking because if feels like there is so much wood to go around.
I used to live in the San Francisco Bay Area and a number of local woodworkers focused their business around green woodworking. Examples are Berkeley Mills, which displays its FSC certification in its showroom, and a small shop in San Francisco called Woodshanti that uses bamboo laminates and other sustainable materials.
any thoughts???
I'm more likely to be concerned about a green label if the wood I'm buying is an exotic species.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Matt,
Sustainable forestry is definitely a topic here in Vermont, and there is also some effort to label wood that is from local, "family forest" sources rather than trucked from elsewhere. One source is mapping the locations of trees and labelling flitches and logs meticulously so that a cabinetmaker or instrument builder's client could theoretically visit the stump where their furniture/instrument came from!Middlebury College recently used locally, sustainably harvested wood in a new building -- a Vermont forest "mix" of maple, birch, and beech boards. This was featured in Bill McKibben's recent book, _Wandering Home_. And there are some cabinetmakers and carpenters here specializing in using "character wood" otherwise destined to become pulp, and in some cases re-used wood from barns or other old structures. I could go into more specifics, but I'm not sure how much interest there is here.
-Andy
" One source is mapping the locations of trees and labelling flitches and logs meticulously so that a cabinetmaker or instrument builder's client could theoretically visit the stump where their furniture/instrument came from! "
LOL I'm sorry. I couldn't help myself. Seriously, though, finding and using sustainable and renewable sources of lumber is a good idea. Anybody used Lyptus? I 'm not clear on all the details but doesn't it mature relativly fast? I think it's grown in south america in already forested areas Did a high end kitchen last year out of Lyptus. Beautiful color. Finishes nice. Mills great. Kind of heavy though. The clients and I were both happy with the results. It's availability is somewhat hit and miss here on the southern Oregon coast. If it were more readily available I would use it more. Doesn't Wyerhouser( sp) have the exclusive rights to market this?
Paul
Paul,
This is the place:
http://www.shelburnefarms.org/
I'm not sure what's so funny about it, but I guess I shouldn't take for granted that everyone lives in places where sustainability is reshaping the economy to the extent that it is here.
Here's another relevant link:
http://www.familyforests.org/
-Andy
Hi Andy,
Thanks for the links. I wasn't laughing at the idea of sustainable wood, which should be done, but the picture of the client kneeling at the base of the stump where his new dining table came from, hands outstretched, .....................
Paul
Paul,
I understand. No sense of worshipping was meant to be implied, bu rather, the de-mystifying of things that is part and parcel of a growing desire to know an exact place of origin of material, food, etc.
-Andy
Yes, cloebearanimals, lyptus is a Weyerhaeuser trademark. It is timber grown on plantations in Brazil in a joint venture between Aracruz and Weyerhaeuser. The wood is eucalyptus, an exotic imported from Australia. Nothing rain-foresty about it. The plantations are establised on old pasture land in southeast brazil. The wood is harvested for pulp in as little as 7 years and for lumber in as little as 15 years, although 20 to 25 years is more common. This is "agro-forestry" at its best. I went there in 2003, and was blown away by how fast these trees grow.
Your comments about sustainable forestry in Vermont interested me. My understanding is that Vermont has probably twice the forest cover today that it had 100+ years ago - a result of the decline of agriculture in the state. What's the situation today, is the amount of forest increasing or decreasing? What's the major cause of forest loss, logging, clearing land for new houses, clearing land for other uses?
You are correct, David. My understanding of this is anecdotal and also based on reading history here, not based on currect statistics, so take it with a grain of salt. I do know that around 1870 we had something like 25% forest and today we have more like 85% -- way more than twice the forest, right? -- but I'd have to look up the exact number. Vermont was initially heavily de-forested, then the sheep were here in great numbers, which really has a huge impact on the landscape. When sheep farming declined, forests started growing back. With further dairy farm closures in more recent decades, the percent of forest is probably as high as its been in a century. My understanding is that de-forestation isn't considered to be a huge issue here, but in buying lumber, you have to look hard to find local lumber rather than stuff that's trucked in from Maine and Canada. Still, I've been happy with the sources that I've found. A huge portion of the state is National Forest.
The struggle has been to give economic CPR to the dairy industry here. Once the land is preserved as a farm, the forests on it are usually conserved by the farmers -- maple syrup is a big boost in income for those who make it.
It's not uncommon to find a perfect hole in a sugar maple board -- left from a tap. (Filled with epoxy, or left open, this is a nice conversation piece in a coffee table top etc.)
-Andy
Matt,
One way and another, the vast majority of wood I use is recovered from someplace where it would otherwise be skipped or burnt. This includes: old buildings that are being demolished/renovated; (very large) offcuts from commercial makers; scraps from bulk timber cargos; and others. I know folk who go skip-raiding on the streets and get a lot of stuff that way, including ply and other board material.
In short, the amount of good quality, often exotic, timber that is going begging is astounding. You just have to a) look for it and b) be content to use the species you find at any particular time.
I rarely go to timber yards, as they want lots of my money and their stuff is often far from the well-seasoned condition of the salvaged planks.
As to green woodworking - you can get very usable trees from the parks & gardens departments of the local council. They chop a large amount of good ash and sycamore, hereabouts, to keep roads wide and so forth.
A lot of the sustainable timber on the market here also seems to suffer from fast-growth syndrome. One can buy "yellow pine" (slash, loblolly, short & longleaf, otherwise known as southern or pitch pine) but the rings are widely-spaced, the early-growth predominant and woolly, with the specific gravity low compared to salvaged pitch pine beams from 19th century mills or barns.
Lataxe, a rag & bone man
Edited 1/31/2007 6:48 pm ET by Lataxe
In the past few years I've seen a gradual growth of "green" issues on clients' agendas. It still concerns maybe only 5% of our customers, but that's more than it used to be.I've encountered 2 quite different "green" concerns:1) Wood species that are from renewable, ecologically responsible sources.
2) Use of non-toxic adhesives and finishes.People with these concerns have always shown a willingness to pay a bit more for them.David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
David,I'd like to hear more details, like which species you've found that fit the first criterion, and which adhesives and finishes fit the second (for you and your clients).I have friends who swear by the "Livos" finishes -- there are a LOT to choose from -- and others who take a simpler path with "Tried and True" (only 3 options). As for adhesives, I imagine that "Old Brown Glue" and almost any hide glue that you mix up yourself would fit the bill, unless the clients are vegetarians! (I haven't used Livos myself because I find it inconvenient to buy it!)-Andy
Andy,Regarding finishes, I haven't used the Livos products, but I've heard good things about them. I've used Auro finishes (http://www.auro.co.uk) and I was happy with the results, or more accurately, the client was happy. I've also used a lot of milk paint (The Old Fashioned Milk Paint Co), sometimes with a topcoat of oil. Then of course there's always shellac.As far as adhesives go, it's hide glue. Regarding wood species, it's a bit more complex, but I've found that an honest talk with the client is usually enough to satisfy their demand. Speaking in general, woods harvested commercially today in Western Europe or North America are subject to scrutiny and at least some measure of forestry regulation. I use French oak, Pennsyvania cherry, etc. without asking for certification because I see it as a largely pointless exercise. On the other hand, even if I demanded a certificate for Teak that came from SE Asia, or Indian Padauk it wouldn't be worth the paper it's written on. My experience with private clients is that they don't care about the paper, they care about the issue itself. And that means sourcing within certain geographical boundaries.David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
Thanks, David; very interesting.
-Andy
I would be interested in an article that made suggestions for "green woodworking" practices. Details of lumber sustainability certification, an assessment of the toxicity of various types of glues and finishes, and even some off-the-beaten-path suggestions such as Laxite's lumber source ideas would be very interesting.
Chris
That's a nice idea. I'll bring it up at our next staff meeting.
I for one would be interested in article on the state of our native hardwood forests. Stories I hear about shiploads of cherry and walnut going to China to be made into cheap furniture have me wondering whether to stockpile or to invest in some woodlands.
after having read jon arnos' and scott landis' debate on certified woods I think I've come to the conclusion that its not that important to worry about only buying "Green" lumber. Arnos main point was the main reason more rainforest isn't slashed and burned for farmland is because the lumber is so valueble was my deciding factor. if we only buy "green" lumber, than the large stands of rainforest become of little value to the south americans so they will clear the forest to make more farmland that they desperatly need.
You know, the "green" idea in lumber can go a bit overboard. Old growth is not renewable in our lifetimes, of course, and it really is a shame to cut it these days...unless. I have an old second-growth woodlot in northern Minnesota that was logged at the turn of the 19th century. The older trees there are ~100 years old. We do not cut them unless the are dying or pose a risk to a structure, or actually fall down. We get good Burr Oak that way, some White Pine, and so much Birch and Basswood that we just burn it.
My parents live in a substantial (50 acre) mostly true virgin hardwood forest in Illinois. Much of it is preserved under a conservation easement, but the 15 acres around the house and out-buildings is not. As in Minnesota we do not log for logging's sake. However, a dead or dying 130 ft. white oak with a DBH of ~40 inches is a lot to deal with if it comes down when and where you do not want it to. So we cut a few trees a year. Later this year my brothers and I should get about 5,000 to 7,000 bdft of q-sawn old growth white oak that way(Querqus Alba -- the real thing) , along with some other oak species and possibly some walnut and cherry depending on the winter's toll. We get that wood, and yet the ancient forest lives on.
My point is that while sustainable harvest and regrowth of something that grows for several human generations is really not possible, selective harvest to maintain a forest is just as reasonable, and just as "green" as it was when I was taught it by US Forest Rangers in advanced 4-H summer camps in Indiana 40 years ago. In the great hardwood forests of those days, the Rangers in those took only carefully selected mature trees. They left a minimal footprint when doing it. My family goes a bit further and risks losing part of the butt log to rot by waiting past mature prime because we really don't want to lose the trees. However, if they are on the way out anyway, we see no reason to forgo the lumber.
Consider, though the amount of furniture and woodwork that can be made out of several thousand bdft of q-sawn oak, cherry and walnut, with more every year. Not much for a factory, perhaps, but well more than a lifetime for us, and enough to keep some of you with smaller shops busy until retirement. So, if you have clients who are concerned about harvest methods, consider working with small but careful forest owners who practice extremely limited selective harvest. If you can get the wood out in a way that does not damage the land, they might be pleased to see that the logs do not go to waste.
Edited 2/3/2007 10:37 am ET by Joe Sullivan
Joe referred to "careful forest owners who practice extremely limited selective harvest".Joe, I would say that what you described actually _is_ one form of "green" practice, not an alternative to it! The key is for those buying wood, or wooden products, to try to get them from those sources rather than from more anonymous sources.
Joe,Your post was thoughtful and right on the money as far as I'm concerned. Personally, I wish I was in a position to connect to the kind of sources you suggest. It would be the best thing for everyone involved.The circumstances of my life and business are that I buy some 1200-1500 bd. ft. of hardwoods every month, all of it coming from thousands of miles away and removed from me by an agent or two. It's just not possible to have any knowledge of what's really going on at the other end. On the other hand, if there were sawmills that I knew specialized in the kind of responsible cutting that you are talking about, and willing to export, I would try to give them my business. Maybe there are such mills, I just don't know. Anyway, I appreciated your post; it gave me a vicarious enjoyment of one aspect of woodworking that I never get to see.
David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
David,
I went to your business link and realized how very far away you are. Still, if you are buying North Am. hardwoods the shipping is distant whether or not the wood is from responsible sources.
I think you might find something by looking through this link:
http://www.familyforests.org/
These sources are understandably smaller than what you are used to. Perhaps you would take a supply from them one or two months out of 12. But every bit counts.
-Andy
David:
Like VTAndy I went to your site AFTER my post. Oh my gosh, you really do face problems of distance! Some of my "advice' wouldn't be practical for you at all. Now my creative juices are flowing. Maybe there is a way??? Maybe not. Who knows?
To Ring:
I understand the problem of distant sources all too well. I live in Texas, a thousand or more miles from my own family's lumber. There are no hardwood mills near me or within about 100 miles or so, and I don't know the ones who are. Howeer, as anothe poster said, I guess importing is importing. The challenge -- which would cost time and money, of course-- would be to find sources who would reliably ship lumber of the quality you want, even if you are not there to look at it. This is not insurmountable. In fact, it is pretty much the issue faced by any buyer of natural resources who lacks an on-site inspector. Conversely, you could identify the mills, have them set aside selet stock, and make quarterly visits to do final selection. The problem of addet cost snd inconvenience remains, though.
TO THE OTHER POSTER WHO COMMENTED ON "GREEN" (sorry, I can't see the screen name as I type this message):
You are absolutely right, it IS a "green" approach. However, it predates "green" consciousness and falls into an old concept that my grandfather well understood -- that of stewardship of the land and its resources. Stewardship is very different than exploitation. "Green" can get extreme, and it can also become another marketing tag. "Green" is also ill-defined and open to lots of misunderstanding and unpleasantness. In my cyncal opinion -- honed by a lot of political activity-- if "green" ever becomes a well-defined term of art, it will have been shaped by interest groups to favor certain practices and ignore others.
My family for some generations has believed in stewardship and preservation. I myself feel a strong duty to the land in my care. To the extent that that aligns with "green" concepts, call me green.
Hi Joe,I agree with you 100%, and I find no contradiction in the fact that these practices predate "green." Many organic gardening practices predate "organic" as well, but there is a good reason for the label. It is because over the last 50 years or so, the degree to which certain other practices (more industrial, and less holistically responsible) became the norm is so very extreme that various strategies are necessary to "recapture" the older practices and make them economically viable again. For instance, if I was to run a farm here, including small-herd milk production, lumber, and maple syrup derived the old way, with buckets and horses, etc., as was typical 85 years ago, without in some manner highlighting my stewardship of the land and low-impact processes, I'd be bankrupt. (As a huge number of VT farms are, with slow recovery underway). The various new labels enable me to distinguish my products to a public that largely requires education and information in order to recognize what I'm doing. The umbrella label "green" is not very specific, and ideally it is like a ladder we will throw away once everyone has climbed up.-Andy
Oh, right. No argument from me at all. I just get wary, and weary, of the extremes.
I am a gardener, too, for our own family consumption. I am about 80% to 90% organic, but am not averse to the judicious use of certain chemicals when the need exists. We have a country property here in Texas with horses and can make our own compost and mulch and so on which raises the conveniece and lowers the cost of organic methods.
In real life I have an actual business career so I really don't live off the land or anything, but I like to do what I can.
I bought myself a woodmizer sawmill back in 99, and have since been sawing a good portion of my domestic woods from urban trees.However, sometimes I want to use an exotic for a very special project. I don't think that the few scattered artisan furniture-makers scattered across this country do as much to hurt deforestation around the world nearly as much as the slash and burn problem to turn forest into farmland.
Matt,Without getting too deep, I would have to say that many furniture makers practice "green" building by simply making more durable goods. I see more value placed on the material by those who design and make pieces of furniture meant to span lifetimes.I can see no more higher good than the responsible use of such a limited resource. While it is true that management and conservation go a long way to help sustain the supply of the resources. So would furniture and other goods designed to last more than a few years. I am afraid that in this throw away society of today education or talk of conservation generally falls on deaf ears.One interesting article may be how much of the native lumber is used here in the US by manufacturing, and that which goes overseas. I think the small cabinet shops and one off craftsmen would hardly make a dent in the overall timber consumption in the US.While I agree with wise use planning, conservation and "green" technology. For it to really work I would think that the commercial manufacturers and producers would need to get in on the game for it to really make a difference.J.P.
Hi all, great topic!
Yes there are high quality green adhesives and finishes. Some of the best
have been around for along time(natural waxes and water based stains). Others that are newer to the market such as safe coat (http://www.afmsafecoat.com/)
I used the Polyureseal BP on a kitchen island, 12 coats total, sanded between each coat. Low VOC, water based, very tuff.
Check out a book called ECO Design the source book by Alastair fuad-luke.
Also as far as lumber consumption goes, hell yeah I care! I hope that generations to come get the same joy we do from woodworking. All of my purchased wood is FSC certified, I collect lumber from various cabinet shops who toss out some pretty choice stuff(hardwood, ply, etc. Also pallets, I know yeah a lot of work for a little wood. I found a statistic from 2004 that stated roughly 10% of wood harvested in the US was for pallets, oak, poplar, some great wood. Get into touch with tree care companies, I have slabs of 150 year old oak, black walnut, english walnut, some kind of pine.
By the way a lot of this is free. Be creative.
Salvaged
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