Replies

1. 
   Lataxe | Feb 26, 2009 01:03pm | #1

   Mr Once,

   The Freud machine:

   http://www.freudtools.com/p-420-fdw710k-doweling-joiner.aspx

   looks more like a cheaper version of the Mafell machine:

   http://www.machines4wood.com/mall/productpage.cfm/scottandsargeant/NM9160

   When the Mafell first came out I was slightly surprised at it seems a backward step from even a biscuit joiner. (And I have a Mafell biscuit joiner that works extremely well).  I do use dowels myself for this and that but not as a joinery mainstay. 

   I believe doweling is still rampant as the main joinery method in a lot of commercial furniture making - the sort of furniture that is rather like IKEA but ready-made for the buyer rather than in a flat pack.  I do get asked to fix a lot of this stuff that has come apart after a year or two of use, particularly dining chairs, which get a lot of stress.

   The Festool Domino, on the other hand, does seem to provide most of the benefits of M&T joinery with the added factor of speed and ease of appliction.  I haven't got one yet but there is one high up on the shopping list.

   *****

   I wonder if there is anyone out there in Knotsland who would defend the use of dowels (and a doweling machine) as a mainstay joinery system; and what the arguments are in favour of doweled furniture?

   Lataxe

   
   

   ---

   Edited 2/26/2009 5:04 am ET by Lataxe

1. 
   user-259615 | Feb 26, 2009 03:12pm | #2

   We are running a serious risk of agreeing with each other, Lataxe.What on earth is the point? Dowels are intrinsically weak, due to the very low percentage of true facegrain-to-facegrain glue area.Even biscuits are better, and the Festool Domino, though limited in depth, is infinitely superior as a system. If the piece you are making requires M&T's within the capacity of the Domino, then it is, as I believe the vernacular description is, a No Brainer.Yes it's expensive as a power tool. But it is also a huge time-saver, so anyone whose time is an important part of their economic calculation is going to be quids in in a very short space of time.Cheers
   SteveSpace is more valuable than the junk that occupies it.
   Woodworking DVDs and jigs from http://www.workshopessentials.com

1. 
   Domer | Feb 27, 2009 09:15pm | #3

   Like Steve and Lataxe both said, the Festool Domino is vastly superior to dowels no matter how they are put in.It is also true that if you value your time, the Domino is worth it.All that being said, you can make loose tenons with a plunge router for a lot less, assuming you have the plunge router.Eagle Jigs in Kansas City makes a great tool to help make loose tenons called the Router Wizard. Just Google Eagle Jigs and you can find it. I actually have both the Domino and the Router Wizard. The Domino is great for standard M&T joints. It is quick and accurate. It is a wonderfully designed tool. Festool puts a lot of thought into the design of their tools and the quality is second to none.The Router Wizard will do virtually anything the Domino will but it takes a little more set up time. Ina addition, you can use the Router Wizard to make stopped dadoes for frame and panel pieces better than anything else I have seen because the router is on top and you can see the cut taking place. And it is relatively safe as well. Hope this helps.Domer

1. 
   user-259615 | Feb 27, 2009 09:56pm | #4

   Yes Domer, you are right on all counts. A Domino, excellent though it is, is not necessary for making perfect loose tenons. You can do the same with any router and a good mortising jig. I'll probably get hammered for plugging my own work here, but if you guys get any of the British magazines over there, you may have seen my mortising cheeks for a standard Record vise. At least, it's standard over here, you guys have your own peculiarities :).It's shown on some of my YouTube videos and, of course, in the stuff that my signature link links to.Do you know why I like loose tenons? Because for many applications they are just as strong as a "proper" tenon and you don't have the problem of not getting the surfaces perfectly flush. Mind you, I don't have that problem with the Ultimate Tablesaw Tenon Jig either, and that costs a fraction of any commercial jig and is safer to boot. But then I would say that wouldn't I? It doesn't stop it from being true, of course.I really can't see the pint of dowel joinery at all. It's not even easy let alone good.Cheers
   SteveSpace is more valuable than the junk that occupies it.
   Woodworking DVDs and jigs from http://www.workshopessentials.com

1. 
   Domer | Feb 28, 2009 06:35am | #5

   Steve,I am a little bit of a gear head when it comes to tools. I can be a sucker for a new tool. Luckily, there is a young man at our local Woodcraft store that has talked me out of buying a lot of stuff but then again has convinced me to buy other things. I have been happy for the tools I did not buy and for the tools he convinced me to buy. That being said, you can produce great pieces of work with minimal equipment and lousy stuff with the best equipment. I looked at your web site. Your DVD's are very reasonably priced. I plan on getting the set. Your tenon jig does look nice. I have always been a coward around my tools but I am even more safety conscience now, so the guards on your tenon jig make it even more attractive.Domer

2. 
   user-259615 | Feb 28, 2009 01:07pm | #6

   Yes Domer, the man, not the tools, maketh the piece, do they not?But you have to admit,good tools are a pleasure to use and make it easier to produce good work, so the whole process, as well as the end result, is more satisfying. Plus, generally speaking, good tools last longer than rubbish ones, so they end up being good VFM too.Glad to hear you like the look of the DVDs! Vols 1&2 are only available in PAL format, but they play fine on any modern Home Theater system, just not on an NTSC-only DVD player. Cheers
   SteveSpace is more valuable than the junk that occupies it.
   Woodworking DVDs and jigs from http://www.workshopessentials.com

3. 
   Domer | Feb 28, 2009 08:38pm | #7

   I think that most of us have a hard time relating to people who are not in the same circumstances as themselves. You read in so many blogs that you should never buy a new tool and if you do certainly not one of the more expensive one. For example, my middle son is a serious woodworker like myself but he is just starting out. He has one son and another child on the way. I am toward the end of my career and am an empty nester. So he gives me grief over buying the Domino and now the SawStop table saw. I see them as quality tools that I can enjoy for the rest of my woodworking career. Will they make me a better woodworker, I don't know. Certainly, I don't think they will make me a worse woodworker and hopefully will let me have a better result. By the way, I am technologically illiterate. Does that mean, I can play your DVD's on any DVD player?DomerI think Domer

4. 
   user-259615 | Feb 28, 2009 08:51pm | #8

   HI Domer
   I just go by the rule that I buy the best I can afford at the time. OK, so it hurts a bit, but you soon forget that. Was is Ruskin who said something to the effect that the bitterness of poor quality lasts longer than the sweetness of low price. Something like that anyway.Re the DVDs - no, it doesn't mean that. If you are in the US, then WE3 is available in NTSC format (your standard) and will play on any ordinary DVD player.WE1&2 are only in PAL format (for UK, Europe and Australia, and most of the rest of the world, actually). They play on a European DVD player (PAL), PCs, laptops and Macs, but NOT on an "ordinary" American DVD player (because they are PAL, not NTSC). However, modern Home Theater systems play both formats, so my DVDs work fine on modern equipment, even in the US.I've sold lots into the US and no-one has said they can't play them. Anyway, I offer a money-back guarantee, if that jiggles you along a bit! :)Cheers
   Steve
   Space is more valuable than the junk that occupies it.
   Woodworking DVDs and jigs from http://www.workshopessentials.com

   Edited 2/28/2009 1:02 pm by Steve Maskery

2. 
   woodoo | Feb 28, 2009 11:05pm | #9

   Lataxe,

   I will try to defend the dowel. I write from Germany, I hope you can understand my English.

   For almost three years I am using the original Mafell "Duodübler" (double dowel jointing system) and was never in temptation to change. I can see no disadvantages in using multiple dowels in comparison to loose tenons / Dominos.

   In the German woodworking community, the Mafell Duodübler is widely accepted as a (unfortunately similar high-cost) alternative to the Festool Domino System or a high quality bisquit jointer (as the original Lamello).

   The system has a lot of advantages:

   - The System is very precise and well engineered, fast and exact drilling is possible without measuring.- Dowel drill bits are available up to 16mm (0,63in) for sturdy joints- Usually two dowel holes are drilled during one operation with a distance of 32mm (1,26 in), which makes a joint with equivalent strength and amount of longwood compared to a Domino. - You can also use only one drill bit and make joints in pieces smaller than 1 inch, which is not possible with a Domino or a bisquit jointer- With an additional dowel template, rows of holes can be made for building shelves (here known as an industrial standard called "system 32")- Dowels are widely available (or easily self-made) in all kinds of wood 

   As far as I know, Mafell products are not available in the United States. I had once the opportunity to hold the Freud machine in my hands and have doubts, whether the precision is comparable.

   Florian

1. 
   dgreen | Feb 28, 2009 11:33pm | #10

   Mafell is indeed available in the US. Link 

    

   ................................................

   Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot

2. 
   Lataxe | Feb 28, 2009 11:34pm | #11

   Florian,

   You make a good argument for the Mafell dowler; perhaps also a good argument for dowels themselves.

   I have a Mafell biscuit joiner and find it to be precise and accurate.  I also find that biscuit joinery can be used very effectively as an alternative to mortise and tenon joinery.  This is partly due to the precision of the Mafell machine but also due to the precision and strength of biscuits themselves; and the way they work in the wood.

   I have had the experience that the round profile of dowels can cause them to lose grip because they (and the round hole they are in) go oval when the mositure level in the wood changes.  This does not seem to be a problem with biscuits. 

   Perhaps dowels are a good joining system if all the following conditions are met?

   * The dowels and the dowel holes are very accurately made and located in the work piece.

   * The moisture content of the dowel and workpiece are the same when the dowel joints are made.

   * The moisture content of the finished furniture does not vary a lot in use.

   There is also the issue of how a dowel is made and the wood it is made of. Some dowels seem to be poorly made (they are slightly under or over their advertised size).  Also, are fluted dowels better or worse than dowels with plain walls, do you think?

   I will be interested in any comments you could make on these issues, from your experience.

   Lataxe

   PS Welcome to Knots.

    

1. 
   woodoo | Mar 01, 2009 01:36am | #12

   Lataxe,

   Thank you for your kind welcome!

   And now the comment to your questions:

   - The dowels and especially the dowel holes have to be very accurately made and located in the workpiece. Contrary to bisquit joints or (depending on the choosen adjustment) Dominos, there is no lateral flexibility, which may be seen as a disadvantage. But with a good machine (like the Mafell Duodübler) this precision is easily possible.

   - I can see no reason, why a round dowel or dowel hole should change its geometry more with changing moisture than any other form (like a mortise or tenon). Fact is, that joint failure can occur in all kinds of joinery  during shrinking and swelling of wood  if the grain direction of the parts differs (as in the majority of cases).

   - Of course moisture content of dowels and wood normally should be the same (as in any parts of joinery). In my experience especially in hardwood it can be reasonable to pre-dry the dowels  to ease assembly and to get an extra-tight fit subsequently. 

   - I use mainly fluted dowels (as commercially available) but have never compared them with other types.

   Dowels are currently widely used in the industrial production of cheap furniture and therefore seen as  minor joints.  I think this is a prejudice. Sam Maloof as an artist with pragmatic methods also uses a doweling machine for the joinery of his famous rocking chairs. The dowel joint is a reasonable and reliable technique in woodworking and should not been considered as something inferior.

   Florian

   Edited 2/28/2009 5:40 pm ET by woodoo

   Edited 2/28/2009 10:41 pm ET by woodoo

1. 
   Domer | Mar 01, 2009 03:53am | #13

   I thought that Sam Maloof used dowels on his chair seats primarily for alignment. He does not like biscuits for that purpose because he feels that the swelling of the biscuit will cause a bump.I saw a video of Mr. Maloof describing how he uses dowels to join the rockers to the rocker legs. The legs are canted outward so he clamps the legs together in order to fit the dowels into the rockers. So there is considerable mechanical force holding the legs and rockers together even with out any glue. He also uses dowels to connect the arms of chairs to the front legs. But he also often times uses metal screws as well as I understand it.I always thought that dowels for apron to leg joints was weak and more subject to working it's way loose than M&T whether loose or integral. Am I wrong on that account?Domer

3. 
   bones | Mar 01, 2009 04:16am | #14

   You are right on the speed! I love the domino.  It gives all the benefits with of the loose tenon and the ease of a biscuit cutter (sold mine after the purchase of the domino).  The domino gives you some wiggle room.  If the dowel is off your toast. Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.