I was at Home Depot today and saw they had Freud TS blades and got excited. I looked closer and they were labeled Diablo. I noticed the price is MUCH cheaper than those of the other Frued blades, is the quality less also?
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Replies
They cut pretty well for the price, although not as cleanly as the high end blades. I think the main reason they are so inexpensive is the carbide is really thin, so I'm not sure they can be resharpened.
Still, they gotta be the best blades out there under 30 bucks.
David
Here is what Charles M. from Freud has previously said about this:QUOTEAll Freud blades come from the same machines in the same manufacturing plant. We make our own micrograin carbide in numerous formulations that represent various degrees of hardness. The carbide is selected depending on the intended application (the hardest is used for laminates the softest for ripping) as are the tooth angles and tooth quantity. The steel for the blade plates is all the same grade. The brazing is all the same. The key differences between the 3 main lines of Freud blades are: The LU/LM Industrial blades have the thickest tips for the most resharpenings and are generally full kerf. We also offer the most selection of specialty blades in this line. These have the most appeal to professionals who need to get a lot of sharpenings out of a blade and to artisans who need specialty blades for their projects. The TK and Diablo lines are very similar. Both are thin kerf blades and the tip thickness is the same. The key difference is in the way we market these blades. The Diablo line has blades intended for purposes like framing, siding, decking and general home improvement and is packaged and promoted in ways that appeal to contractors and DIYers. The TK line has blades for similar purposes (as well as laminate blades) but is sold with different or no coating and different packaging and POP material to appeal more to woodworkers.
Do professional woodworkers shop for blades at Home Depot? Probably some do and they can get excellent performance from a Diablo blade for a lot of their uses but with a shorter overall life (and lower cost) due to the tip thickness. Same with the TK blades at Lowe's.
Why not compare a TK or Diablo blade to Forrest? Consider this analogy: Toyota cars and Lexus cars share a lot of the same components and are made by the same company. Would you compare a Camry with a BMW?
We make a fourth line of blades (F400 Premier series) that is very similar to the WWII and is priced similarly. The difference between ours and Forrest's is that ours is made by computer controlled, super modern equipment and theirs is made by hand. Both methods have advantages and disadvantages but I leave the final verdict to the consumer. Charles M
Freud, Inc. CLOSE QUOTEHowie.........
Excellent reply and this helps a lot. I think I will spring for one top of the line Freud or Forrest then have a few of these cheaper ones on hand to do day-to-day simple stuff.
Was looking for a thin-kerf blade and saw the Freuds at Home Depot. Decided to spring for a 7 1/4" 24 tooth blade. Cut is really nice and has plenty of depth for most of the work I do (my 10" blades spend the majority of their lives mostly below the table surface anyway). And, at just under $10 a pop, buying a new one every few months is no strain on the wallet.
Using the 7 1/4 X 24 teeth is not going to give you nearly the same cut as a 10" X 24 toothed blade assuming you have the same feed rate. The tip speed in feet/min is going to be much higher on the 10" blade. The 10" blade gives you roughly 10 more inches of cutting per revolution or the equivalent of 8 more teeth than the 7 1/4" blade given the same RPM and feed rate.Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
True. I have found a slightly slower feed rate to be advantageous, but as I'm a hobbyist (however obsessed) instead of a pro, the cost differential more than justifies a few seconds here and there for me.
I build guitars as well as furniture and other things. The 7 1/4" 40 tooth Freud Diablo is my go to blade for 90% of the things I do as you can cut to 1 3/4" thickness or so and the price is excellent. The thin kerf wastes a lot less wood (important with expensive exotics) and the cut is almost glue ready.
The Freud is the blade of choice among many guitar makers. I only use my 10" Forrest if I have a lot of heavy ripping to do.
Why is everyone using the 7 1/4 blade and not the 10?
The quality of cut materials 3/4" and under is fantastic and the price ($22.00 for the 40 tooth and less for the 24 tooth) can't be beat.
I use them for everything as stated other than hardwoods greater than 4/4 or for a lot of ripping.
Bruce, You said "Using the 7 1/4 X 24 teeth is not going to give you nearly the same cut as a 10" X 24 toothed blade assuming you have the same feed rate. The tip speed in feet/min is going to be much higher on the 10" blade. The 10" blade gives you roughly 10 more inches of cutting per revolution or the equivalent of 8 more teeth than the 7 1/4" blade given the same RPM and feed rate." You don't teach physics do you?The torque is much greater on the smaller blade, which allows for a faster feed rate. If the kerf width is the same, the smaller blade delivers about 30% more power to that same number of teeth, which would allow for a faster feed rate.
I agree with what you have said, more power, faster feed rate but the cut will be poorer and the angle of tooth attach will be quite sharp and chopping. No to the physics teacher ;-)
Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Edited 6/4/2008 3:12 pm ET by BruceS
I am not a physics teacher either but concerning the torque reference, since the saw blade is not turning a gear wouldn't "force" be more relevant to this thread...force = mass x acceleration... in which case the larger blade would provide more speed and mass equaling more force.... I am not trying to correct anything that was said... I am only asking as I myself don't know
Man, you guys have taken it to an entirely different level :) I went ahead and purchased one of the Frued blades today and I'll see what they have to offer.
I think the term refers to a force to rotate an object around an axis, and the simple rules of leverage apply to the blade size if everything else stays the same. Lets say you have a saw with a two hp motor. If you could run a 12" blade with 24 teeth, or choose a 6" blade with the same kerf width, and 24 teeth also, the power delivered to each tooth would be twice as much on the smaller blade, because of the leverage advantage. If the kerf was the same. Which blade would have more deflection? Obviously the larger plate would be more prone to deflection, which is a major cause for poor cuts. If the blade height for both blades was set where there was about one tooth clearance above the thickness of the work, then the angle of attack for the tooth entering the wood would be pretty close, although it would be steeper on the exit for the smaller blade, but the path would be shorter for each tooth, so there would be a trade-off for each of those.None of this matters if you have a saw with more power than you could ever need, even with the largest blade that you can fit on it. The main reason that I point this out, is that there are a lot of reader on this forum who may not have the saw that they would like to have, and may find themselves trying to feed a board through that just bogs down and overloads the motor. For them a 30% apparent power boost should be something to welcome, and since most smaller blades are also thinner, then it may be closer to 50% more usable power.
"Lets say you have a saw with a two hp motor. If you could run a 12" blade with 24 teeth, or choose a 6" blade with the same kerf width, and 24 teeth also, the power delivered to each tooth would be twice as much on the smaller blade, because of the leverage advantage."
The force is indeed doubled, but since the tip speed is halved, the power delivered is exactly the same (power = force × velocity).
Think of it this way: Let's assume that you're crosscutting a 2" × 6" board, and the kerf is 1/8" wide. That's 1.5 cubic inches of wood that has to be removed. It takes a certain amount of energy to remove that much material. The saw motor delivers energy at a certain rate (2 HP in this example), so that will determine how much time it takes to make the cut (time = energy / power). That's it. Blade diameter, number of teeth, etc. all cancel out. Those other factors have secondary significance (for example, a crosscut blade does a better job than a rip blade on a crosscut because more of the energy is transferred to the cut, rather than being converted into heat and torn wood fibers), and they can certainly play a role in such things as the smoothness of the cut, but they are not the primary factor in determining how quickly you can make the cut.
-Steve
dang it... so I guess we're not creating new energy... and I was ready to roll out a new perpetual energy device next week, no wonder it didn’t work… I guess I will stop dumping money into research and development trying to get it to work and spend it on flashy packaging and marketing instead. :^)
Lets see if we can make it more complicated. I work in a machine shop (CNC programmer, not a machinist) and there are a few basic parameters in cutting stuff. There is the speed of the tooth, usually surface feet, determined by the diameter of the cutter and the RPM. There is chip load, usually inches per tooth, that is how much each tooth removes in the cut. There is available power. A factor called unit horspower that is how much power it takes to remove one cubic inch per minute of material. Every material has a unit HP value. Mild steel is 1.0, Aluminum is 3-4, titanium 0.1, I have no idea what oak, pine, ipe', etc are.
Aluminum can be cut as fast as the machine will go but you have to cut extreeeemly fast (30,000+ RPM) before the unit HP drops due to the physics of cutting metal. I suspect wood behaves similar to metal at TS speeds but might not at very high speeds.
How fast you can remove material is based on essentially two things, how much the cutter can stand before breaking or chattering (chip load) or how much power is available. I think reaching either of these limits on a TS would be a scarry operation.
There is also friction, blade stiffness, tooth form, sharpness, rigidy of the set-up,?
Now I forgot if I was going to make a point somewhere. Maybe whatever the question was, the answer is "it depends".
Jim
"I think reaching either of these limits on a TS would be a scarry operation."
Maybe on a big industrial machine, but not on a smaller one. With a small, low-powered saw and a big hunk of hard wood (12/4 oak, for example), it's not hard to push the wood through so fast that the saw slows down and stalls, which obviously means that you've reached the power limit.
-Steve
Or my 30 year old Craftsman with a 2 HP (yea, right) motor cutting a 3/4" dado. But a 7 1/4" thin kerf blade with a real 3HP motor would be tuff to bog down.
By a table saw, I meant what everyone has but me.
Jim
Guys, guys, guys. You are taking me back to freshmen engineering classes and my head is starting to hurt :). As the original poster of this thread, I definitely didn't mean for it to go so deep. I was just asking why the Frued Diablo blades sell for much less than their others, and it has clearly been stated that it is simply because they can't be re-sharpened as much.
I finally purchased a Diablo (I've never used any Freud blade) and I can say that if the 100+ dollar version of Freud blades is better than this one it would be unbelievable. The Diablo cuts smooth and I wouldn't say that it has a "glue line" cut but at the same rate that is why I have a jointer sitting to the left of my TS. The Diablo cuts so good that I'm contemplating ordering one of the more expensive Freuds which leads me to the next question. Freud or Forrest....which way do I go, which way do I go. And before answering, PLEASE, PLEASE, no more Physics or Engineering derivations :)
Thanks for all the post.
"...The Diablo cuts so good that I'm contemplating ordering one of the more expensive Freuds which leads me to the next question. Freud or Forrest....which way do I go, which way do I go? "It's really a matter of preference...both have some excellent blades. Freud has multiple levels, Forrest essentially carries only blades equivalent to Freud's premium lines. The best of both consistently rate very highly. Which is best is often determined by the task and the circumstances. Assuming a general purpose blade...Freud's 40T Premier Fusion has a Hi-ATB grind and dual side grind for excellent crosscuts and a glassy smooth edge...it's only available in full kerf. The Fusion is not quite as efficient when ripping thick material as the 40T Forrest WWII, but the WWII isn't quite as clean cutting in ply or melamine. Forrest is made in the USA and offers a choice of full kerf or thin kerf. They also offer a 30T version of the WWII that helps reduce the load in thicker materials or on a smaller saw. So now you're armed with more info and more choices!
Yeah, as a self-taught woodworker I am amazed at the benifits of a good blade. Even the Freud Diablo is a step up from the Irwins that I bought originally. I am contemplating buying both a Freud and a Forrest just so I can cut in aww :)
Bio, I own several different Freud blades, including their Diablo 24-tooth rip blade and a 96-tooth 12" Diablo for my miter saw, plus 2 or 3 of their LU series. All blades have given excellent results.
Can you get them re-sharpened? Some suggest not but others seems to think so. Also, when you get a Freud sharpened do they redo the coat on the blade also?
Yes, you can resharpen them. I'm about to send one out, haven't decided between local (Seattle) or Ballew Saw and Tool. Nope, far as I know they're not recoated. I'm not a big coating fan, and order chrome when there's a choice.
The higher quality blades will generally take more sharpenings (thicker carbide).forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Love the Diablo blade on my circular saw, because of the VERY thin kerf and therefor fastercutting. Not sure I'd want such a thin blade for anything else. I do like the 'regular' Frued combo blade on the TS.
Brian
The Diablo 7 1/4 X 24 teeth blade is perfect for cutting composite material counter tops using your 10" table saw or circular saw. The fact that the material will quickly dull a blade makes the Diablo my choice. When it is dull, pitch it.
Don't sacrifice a $100+ blade.
A bad day woodworking is better than a good day working -- yes, I'm retired!
is the quality less also?
I use both blades.. I think the Diablo is a GREAT blade for the price.. And then some!
I rough cut to size with the Diablo and finish off to final using the 'so called' better Freud 'expensive' blade.. Not sure it was worth changing blade for most of MY work!
Just me though! HOWEVER ... I have had problems with the thin kerf blades.. I stopped using them..
Edited 6/6/2008 12:51 pm by WillGeorge
Ok, I see why I LOVE woodworking. I am a small hobbiest when it comes to ww so in order to get my wood I go to a big shop, and buy from them so I don't have to worry with the excessive S&H or the minimum bdft amount when I only need 10-15 bdft at a time. While there today I asked him about saw blades and he directed me to an old timer that does his sharpening.
I know we live in a computerized society, but when someone tells me they have been sharpening for over 35 years I jumped at the chance to go over and learn. I had a lot of this same conversation with him and a few things were pointed out. #1 DO NOT BUY BLADES MADE IN CHINA. #2 DO NOT BUY BLADES MADE IN CHINA (I think I said that already). He talked about how tough the steel is, and what you have to do to grind it that it just isn't worth it.
Other than that he said the Forrest blades were very nice and the Freuds were good also BUT he stated that he has seen quite a few Freuds that have started to split near where the base of the tooth connects to the overall blade which isn't good. Anyone ever had that happen? He also said he wasn't sold on the blade coatings just for the fact they provide more opportunity for build-up which in the long run can decrease the performance of the blade. He in no way said the Freuds were bad, just said the Forrest may be just a slight step ahead. Also, he is a Bronze Star Vet of WWII so I think he is very much pro-American so that may be a little bit of the reason he is pro-Forrest.
just said the Forrest may be just a slight step ahead.
Maybe because they are more expensive. I will not comment on that. I have nothing bad to say about Forrest blades.. All I can say is my Freud blades work for me. I inspect my blades often and never saw a fractured weld? Or ever lost a tooth on any Freud blade i use. I have several. Again I gave up on thin kerf blades...
I really don't think he ment much by the statement but I will say he is very, very pro-American made. That may be some of the reason for his few tarnishing remarks, but I think the Freuds are fine and so are the Forrest. With you using the none thin kerf blade I don't think you can go wrong with either.
I don't think you can go wrong with either. I agree except with thin kerf blades!
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