Hi all,
Beginner question here. I’m flattening a piece of walnut by hand and have discovered three knots on the surface. Obviously in the future I’ll be more careful selecting my stock, but for know, how do you tackle this with hand tools? Do you take tiny shavings with the scrub? Do you use the jack to take care of the knot? Or do you resaw the board and throw away the part with the knots in it? I’ve tried ignoring them and it doesn’t work. Just stops the scrub dead in it’s tracks and even put a nick in the blade.
Thanks in advance.
—Pedro
Discussion Forum
Get It All!
UNLIMITED Membership is like taking a master class in woodworking for less than $10 a month.
Start Your Free TrialCategories
Discussion Forum
Digital Plans Library
Member exclusive! – Plans for everyone – from beginners to experts – right at your fingertips.
Highlights
-
Shape Your Skills
when you sign up for our emails
This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply. -
Shop Talk Live Podcast -
Our favorite articles and videos -
E-Learning Courses from Fine Woodworking
-
-
Replies
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/FWNPDF/011144054.pdf
From issue 144 "Planing Difficult Grain" by Mario Rodriguez.
Your are a man amongst men. Thank you!
No plane does very well with large knots in hardwood. I try to make sure that if I'm dealing with a knot, I have very little hand thicknessing to do as heavy passes are impossible and light passes take forever if you are removing much. Use the bandsaw to get to near final thickness and then use a sharp plane - light (thin) passes - and multiple angles of attack to take on the big knots and surrounding swirl.
Pedro,
If the knot is solid, your fine Madcoo with a high angle blade, light cut and narrow mouth should deal with it, especially if you use the approach Samson mentions. The weight and rigidity of the Madcoo really does seem to make a difference with the really nasty grain.
I used mine to flatten a large English oak table top a couple of months or so ago. That oak tends to have large knot and also pin knots, cat-paws and various other difficult areas. The Madcoo sailed through the lot, no scraper needed. There was a little "fluff" or knapp left here and there around the knot; but a quick hand sand got rid of that in no time.
Keep that blade scary sharp though. :-)
Since my Marcou won't be arriving for another couple weeks I had ended up doing the same thing you suggest with the closest thing I could rig up: a LV BU jointer with a 50 degree bevel bedded at 12 degrees. Worked like a charm, but planing down knots with that beast at that angle was one hell of a workout.I read about four-squaring on FWW, then in Guidice's book, and then watched the Cosman video. It all seemed eminently doable so I bought a scrub plane and attacked two rough-sawn walnut boards. Odd that none of the above sources mentions that their approach doesn't work with knots in hardwood. You can scrub all the way around the knot, and then plane the knot down with the ridges (what you suggest doing with the Marcou, and I had done with the jointer), but that's a boatload of work. Or you can try to scrub through the knot... It's fun running a gouge in a plane, set for a 1/16" cut (as they recommend), through a knot in walnut. Even more fun seeing the massive 3/16" tearout you create. But the best part is spending a half-hour on the waterstone honing the notches out of your scrub plane blade. That or hand-planing the 3/16" of your board with a 62 degree cutting angle to get down to the bottom of that tearout.Note to future handtool flatteners: if your board has knots, do NOT use a scrub plane at all on it. Get it as flat as you can with a Jack, and call it a day.
Pedro,
I drew the line at preparing rough stock with handtools.
If you get carried away with the idea you'll be ordering a 5tpi rip saw from Mike Wenzloff then a 12 month gym membership in order to build up the required stamina and strength for using it effectively. Also, you will have to give up either sleeping or working, as it takes time to hand resaw a 2 inch thick 10 ft X 12 ins plank. Even longer to do 8 of them.
In olden times chaps used to do it to whole tree trunks, over a pit, with a geet big two-handed saw. There was the top dog and the under dog - the latter getting all the sawdust in his mush and no opportunity to chat to passing ladyfolk; or even give them a non-PC whistle. Do you want to end up like that!? Take heed, my boy.
And so to the scrub plane. Some folk enjoy self-immolation and sheer hard graft, as they were abused when young by being made to do large amounts of physical work, there being no electricity or even steam in America before 1946. They have grown up now but they miss them days of toil, which they now recall through the romantic haze of time and fond remembrance; so they get a scrub plane......
I recommend a European planer/thicknesser. It flattens, joints and thickness-planes boards of 10 or 12 inches wide, all in one machine with a small footprint, available at excellent prices and in many varities to us Ypeans. Even in America, there are now one or three on the market, I believe.
Of course, you may be feeling "purist" or otherwise mentally inclined to avoid the powered tools. If so, you have probably caught neaderthal-meme and you must wash your head out quickly before you find yourself ranting in Knots about the uselessness of biscuits or how a bowsaw can also chisel, plane and apply the finish.
Lataxe, who only dimensioned some Big Planks with a hand plane once and learnt his lesson.
Sir Lataxe,
I'm afraid you have me to a tee. I actually emailed Mike Wenzloff a couple weeks ago and asked if he could build me a 5 TPI bowsaw :) I love the things, but the blade on the one I have ain't so hot. I have resawn by hand and it isn't so bad, but it does take a bit. I'm hoping he'll take up the challenge.Thing is I've decided to learn how to do everything with only handtools. After I've completed several projects this way I'll see if I don't get a machine or two to replace the parts I really dislike (if any). But first I want to get proficient at doing all of it by hand. I've learned more about wood in a month of handtooling than I did in a year of routing.In any case Philip Marcou, Dave Jeske, Thomas Lie-Nielsen, and Rob Lee are to blame. I convinced the wife that a Marcou plane, some chisels, and a box of LN and LV tools, are much cheaper than a TS, BS, jointer, planer, router table, chop saw, and drill press (which they are). But now I must prove I can build with the aforementioned handtools. So there I am, thicknessing, flattening, and resawing by hand. Tomorrow I resaw that 3' by 1' by 2" walnut board into two 3' by 1' by 1" planks. We'll see how that goes...
---Pedro
Tomorrow I resaw that 3' by 1' by 2" walnut board into two 3' by 1' by 1" planks.
Bow saw? As Mr. Cerubini and others have suggested around here, and speaking from experience, cut in from all the corners tracking two lines at a time. Be prepared for significant waste - as in those planks won't be 1" thick after subtracting for the kerf and the scrubbing etc. that will be required to the sawn faces.
Yes, bow saw. I'll follow your advice, and am planning on the waste. I've done this with smaller boards, just never one this big.
Thanks for the tip.
---Pedro
Lataxe
There was the top dog and the under dog - the latter getting all the sawdust in his mush and no opportunity to chat to passing ladyfolk
Here in the southeast they were known as the Pittman(under) and Sawyer(top). I tried my luck at some of that and it was rough work even as a part-time volunteer. Truthfully, I found working the bottom easier. My back would get stiff pulling the wide single blade up. I can see why the New Englanders all drifted to the rivers and used water power. In the Tidewater area(around Williamsburg) I'm told the wood was cut entirely by man power.
I might add: The wood was mostly cut when it was green. It makes it easier.
I have seen "gang blades" in artist renditions but I have never tried one.
It was fun to give it a try but I would not want to do that everyday. One thing about that career field: it paid very well. At a conference at Williamsburg I remember Mack Headley telling some other guy that sawyers that traveled from one place to another and set up and cut timbers on site were well paid. He said the sawyers were paid about the same or more that cabinetmakers in the Hay Shop. That surprised me. He also said-- they didn't live very long with the rather rough lifestyles they lived. I think it was some heavy partying.
Dan,
In the woodland of south Cumbria (the county just north of me) there is a revival in coppice working. The woodland owners have realised they need to manage their woodland whilst there are a number of what might have been hippies in the 60s who enjoy the primitive lifestyle of the coppice worker.
They are reviving a number of coppice wood products and some of the old work practices. For example, they are making charcoal from the cleared stuff - burning it in the old-style cast iron kettles for a day or 3 whilst camping out in the wood. There is also "snigging", which is axe-felling and clearing of the timber using a pair of horses with various drag-fangles, rather than chainsaw and tractor. (This does far less damage to the woodland floor's flora and fauna, it is said).
So of course, they tried pit-sawing some of their larger fellings to make hardwood planks for drying and eventual sale to furniture makers. This practice has not really stuck with them, as it apparently took some years of such work to get strong enough to do it well. The coppice lads and lasses have but a few trees to plank-up and never get enough practice at the sawing. They are saw-sore, in back, hand and every other part. :-)
So now they are saving up for a mobile bandsaw. Very wise, says I.
Lataxe, made soft by the comforts of modern life.
Alright, this is ridiculous! Dimensioning was work, but no problem. Ripping by hand is absurd. It's taken me one hour to make it 8 inches through a 2"x8"x36" walnut board. My bow saw blade is so soft I think it looses it's sharpness every six inches. I'm ready to light my shop on fire and immolate myself. A 28" 5 TPI saw really ought to be the right thing from everything I've read. Either I'm a worthless ninny, or my saw stinks. Next Christmas I'm getting a bandsaw. But between now and then...
Does your bowsaw blade have rip teeth? Ripping with a crosscut blade is slow, slow, slow.
-Steve
Yep, rip teeth.
Well, then I guess you're either a worthless ninny or your saw stinks. ;-)
-Steve
Hmmm. I need Mike Wenz to take pity on me.
Can't help you with that, but if you do decide to go the self-immolation route, please send me all of your tools first. (Except the bowsaw.)
-Steve
Nope, I'll be buried with my tools so posterity can puzzle over strange ideas about the afterlife in present day Indiana.
Pedro,
You may have noticed Derek Cohen's piece in WKfinetools all about dimensioning a large board, including the resaw work. Even Derek, a hand tool fetishist of the first water, resorts to the bandsaw when them planks are geet big buggers! He is the wise one.
No doubt a Wenzloff 5tpi ripper will help - but not that much if the plank is ginormous, unless it has a secret motor ensconced in the handle. A big plank is - big.
Get a 3hp bandsaw with a 12 inch resaw capacity. Go on, go on, go on - you know you want one. :-) I have been using mine this afternoon and it has eaten through a number of thick, wide beech planks in no time, with its great 'ooked 1.5tpi blade. (I was a good boy and de-kerfed the resultant planks with the 22" Veritas jointer).
Of course, them planks had been made flat, square and evenly thick for bandsawing with the 3hp planer/thicknesser, in the first instance. Scrub planing such things is for the religious - a bit of a change for them from all that self-scourging with the barbedwire whip, down in the dank underground chapel they keeps for reminding themselves that they ought to suffer, as decreed by The God Tage or somesuch.
Lataxe, electricity worshipper and pain-avoider.
I have seen the article you mentioned, in fact I've tried to read and memorize all of Derek's articles. The only time I've really disagreed with him is in his review of the LV BU Jointer. I love this plane, but I think it was a mistake to give it an uneven side. This makes it very difficult to accurately shoot with the plane, and impossible to use the sole on edge to assess bowing after flattening as he and so many others do. I think it's a design goof, since I see no upside, and it may be the only reason I end up having to buy a jack plane.In any case, surfacing by hand is (in my very limited experience) actually a lot of fun. The scrub plane is a piece of cake to use, and the jack plane (or jointer in my case) is very rewarding. With each pass you see the true nature of the board begin to emerge.Resawing on the other hand stinks. I had thought that after the revelation of my LN saws and how much I enjoy sawing joinery that I might enjoy all sawing. Not so. Dimensioning with a handsaw is for masochists (i.e. non-ninnies). I do want a bandsaw, but I will have to wait. I've splurged enough for one year, so until next Christmas I will make do. Meanwhile I will have to buy lumber close enough to my final desired thickness to dimension with a scrub plane. No more resawing by hand for me.I watched a movie a while back called "The Holiday" or something like that in which an american girl and her english counterpart swap houses for a vacation. In the spirit of our special transatlantic relationship my family and I will take your place at that lovely seaside castle, and in exchange offer you our guest-cottage (aka: two-car garage) in Indiana. You'll find the corn is excellent.
Best regards,
---Pedro
"the LV BU Jointer. I love this plane, but I think it was a mistake to give it an uneven side. This makes it very difficult to accurately shoot with the plane, and impossible to use the sole on edge to assess bowing after flattening as he and so many others do. I think it's a design goof, since I see no upside, and it may be the only reason I end up having to buy a jack plane."
Agreed! Most excellent planeing device except for the strange "industrial design-er" sides. Perhaps it was meant by the marketing boys as a product differentiator. If that WAS the case, the woodworkers at LV Veritas should have locked the bunch in the cellar till the final design (with square-ed sides) went to the casting house and machine shop.
I love my BUS but now I have to buy a Low Angle Jack for shooting. And I'm thinking that may be long enough to joint the odd plank as well. Zounds! Could that have been the reason for reducing the BUS and BUJ to single use devices?
Mike D
"I read about four-squaring on FWW, then in Guidice's book, and then watched the Cosman video."
Note carefully that in all of those demonstrations they always start with a "randomly chosen" piece of wood that just happens to be a perfectly clear, perfectly straight-grained piece of some easy-to-plane wood like soft maple, pine, etc.
-Steve
Yup. I hadn't noticed, but now I do :)
You know getting the old scrub plane out and winding sticks can be fun now and then but.. its a bunch of work. From the 2 boards in the photos, I needed 12 x 33 panels for a pair of bookcase doors.
After working down the planks(1 1/8") to 5/8, you look back and gain a greater appreciation of the apprentice position.
No I didn't hand plane to final dimensions. I got one side flat then I resawed, then tried a little in the planer and back to the bench.
Work in slow progress but its coming along. Lots of planing and lots of scraper work.
dan
Many years ago, when I was much younger, I hand-planed a coffee table top, about 18" x 60", from a single board of Honduras mahogany, which is a pretty easy wood to work. The board had a pronounced bend about 2' from one end, and I ended up reducing the thickness by about 3/8" to get it flat.
I don't feel the need to ever do that again.
-Steve
I'm currently doing a commission -- an A&C table in white oak. I got a pretty nice rough sawn board that started out 20" wide X 10" long. Only one knot in the middle. I cut a section for the top that's 18" X 55" and, just to get a better look at the grain, I took a scrub to one side. My plan was to just scope out the wood and then take it to my local millwork shop for a trip through their wide-belt, since I don't happen to have a 24" planer in my garage shop. ;-( Spent about an hour with an old scrub, jack and smoother.
I just kept thinkin', hey, that wasn't so bad, I think I'll just do a bit more. Then I grabbed the next plane in the rotation and, before I knew it, I had one side pretty well level and smooth. Then I figgered, heck, one side's done, may as well do the other as well. Finished that one off in about 45 minutes. I estimate that I'll be able to do a final scraping and be done with it in about 3 hrs. total. Lots of work, but I enjoyed it. I suppose I took off maybe 1/4". (Let's see, I saved $25 in millwork by spending 3 hrs with hand planes in the shop. That means I earned $8.00 an hour to play, er, work, in my shop. Score!)
One nice bonus in the process -- my L-N 4-1/2 smoother wasn't cutting very well. Needs sharpening I guess. So, just for the heck of it, I grabbed an old Ulmia wooden smoother that I haven't used in who-knows-how-long -- over 10 years, tho'. Knocked the blade into position and had at it. Sweet! That baby's gettin' moved to the front of the plane shelf for sure.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Mike
I'm with you!! And, the good news is, it gets easier and easier. I just finished (2 weeks ago) flattening a 38" by 60" oval hard maple table. I do cheat, however. I flatten each board (8" wide) on the 12" jointer, and plane to thickness approx. 3/16" over final thickness. I glue it up, paying attention to grain direction. When dry, I have at it with the 6, 5 1/2, and smoothers ( I have several to keep from stopping to sharpen). I've been doing it this way for quite some time now (about 5 or 6 years) and I enjoy it much more. I do not believe it's costing me any time on the piece, either. Best of all, no headache from the noise of the machines.
I can definately tell you, though, that I wouldn't want to do the whole shebang that way. I'll always let the jointer and planer do some of the initial work, unless the slab is too wide.
Jeff
Sander.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Hammer,When you said "sander", I take it that you were speaking with an understated tone. I suggest putting it on steroids!!!!!!BIG BELT SANDER with 30 grit belts. Get your wife a dust mask for when she does it. It is much safer that way. MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
That is another good option - belt sander (preferably with a shoe).
Sand 3/16" worth of tearout while keeping the board completely flat across it's length and width? I'd need a 3' by 1' belt sander, a gasmask, and I don't know how many sheets of sandpaper. Thanks, but no thanks.
Drum sanders can get a lot bigger than that and will take 3/16ths in multiple passes like an electric planer.
As far as keeping the board flat, even with a belt sander it's not much different than accomplishing the same thing with a plane - scribe some reference lines with a gauge at the edges and use winding sticks and straight edges to judge the middle.
Pedro, you use the sander before you have a big divot. You can use the toe of a belt sander to reduce the area at the knot, like taking a little scorp. You are then free to use the plane. The knot can almost serve as a depth reference. If you want to use a plane, don't hit the knot straight on with a deep set blade. You figured out how that works. Back off the blade, hold the plane askew so it slices at the knot from a tangent. You can even stop, hold the heel in place and swing the blade in a shearing type of action. It's also possible to come from the opposite direction and stop half way on the knot. You control the cut by feeling the edge of the blade do it's work, which takes a slow and deliberate forward action. It's not a brisk push of the plane. It takes some serious down force on the plane, you don't want to hit, you want to slice slowly. This would be with any of the various planes as you progress, high angle frog, bevel up, jack or smoother. Scrapers are good for final prep, also skewed.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Yep. this process is exactly what I ended up doing, minus the belt-sander part. Worked well, but a lot of elbow grease.
I need to get some scrapers and learn how to use them, fortunately they're inexpensive. Any recommendations on LN vs LV vs old saw blade?
Thanks!
I like the Sandvik card scrapers. It takes some practice to sharpen them and form a curl. You also need a burnisher. I have an old Kunz semi triangular that I would be lost without. http://www.amazon.com/Bahco-Sandvik-474-Card-Scraper/dp/B0001ZONQGhttp://www.traditionalwoodworker.com/product_info.php/cPath/2_236/products_id/2839Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
On large stubborn knots, I sometimes rough them out first, with a gouge, getting them down just below the height the plane will work. You end up planing down to the new depth of the knot, and then you can work around it and level the whole mess out with a scraper.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Gouge and mallet? Doesn't wreck the blade?
"Gouge and mallet? Doesn't wreck the blade?"
Nope.
I see another poster suggests doing the same sort of thing with a belt sander. That would work too, but it kinda violates your initial stated goal to use hand tools only, which I took to mean "no power tools", not just "no stationary power tools." If power tools are in the mix, there are lot's of ways to skin this cat.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Right you are. I'm the only power tool in the shop and lately I've been running on carrot cake :)
A SCRAPER is all you need! I admit, I hardly ever use hand planes but scrapers ALOT!
I do, and I plan to get some! Any recommendations on brand, burring method, etcetera?
Pedro,
If you ask that Philip very nicely (ie by waving dollars) he might let you have one of his most sooper-dooper scrapers. They are solid.
Lataxe, a favoured customer of His Excellency the Prisoner of Kiwistan.
I asked, and he said he'll include one in my plane shipment. I tell you, the man is a gem. I've never had this wonderful an experience buying anything from anyone.
---Pedro
p.s. Thanks for the tip
Pedro,
"I've never had this wonderful an experience buying anything from anyone."You have to get more experience buying from different people. Me, for instance. I have some nice hardwood cauls I'll sell you. The experience will be even better. I'll throw in a few push sticks, and some rubber bands for clamping irregular objects. :-)MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
You are perilously close to "But wait! --There's more!"
Call in the next 20 minutes, and we'll double your order, at no extra charge.
Ray
Ray."You are perilously close to "But wait! --There's more!"
Call in the next 20 minutes, and we'll double your order, at no extra charge."You are right. Furthermore, when you use one of my hardwood cauls, you just "set it and forget it". Ron Popeil got that line from me. Mel
PS this offer wont last long.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Nonsense, you've got it all wrong.Mel, you've just retired. A life of toil and hardwork providing for others only to find yourself pursuing your woody craft with a caveman's adze. Even now you toil in your shop with your primitive tools thinking only of making and providing joy to others. You are a good man! But not as good as you could be. What better way to make your wife and family the happiest in the world than by buying a Marcou for the family? Of course it will be in your shop, but this is not a gift for you, it's a gift for them! Who are the recipients, after all, of your craft?Time to put down the obsidian chisels and crude scoop-on-a-stick tools, and pick up the real thing. By not buying a Marcou, you're hurting your family. You're surrounding them with lumpy and un-shiny workmanship. Do you really want it said that Lataxe and I and so many others love our families more than you do yours? Outrageous! Do your duty to those who love you.
---Pedro
Edited 1/5/2008 10:40 am ET by perizoqui
Pedro,
You are right. I am already talking to Philip about making me an exquisite adze. Actually it will be for my entire family, as you said. I like the way you think. MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
That's a patent violation:
http://www.bowclamp.com/
Samson,
They got the idea from me. I forget who I got it from. Maybe Frid. Maybe someone earlier, like Ptolemy or Aristotle.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel, shame on you, you have got that quite wrong. You need to spread some classic Italian cooking around....(;)Philip Marcou
Philip,
Happy New Year.
I don't think you have to worry too much about competition from me. Even if I make offers to throw in a push stick or two. :-) I am glad that Pedro found out about you and decided to buy a really good hand plane! Enjoy,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled