Hi,
I’m fairly new to doing woodwork and have taken on several projects. Where I begin to get confused is the finish. I would like to create a look with a dark border and a light or natural oak finish as an inlay. My plan was to use mahogany as the border and oak as the inlay. This is where I get confused. Do I stain the oak and mahogany before installation or do I finish the woodwork and then TAPE off at the seam. Keep in mind that after the the project is 100% the goal is a smooth high gloss surface.
thanks
Replies
rianey,
After scraping or sanding the inlays flush they need to be carefully coated with either shellac or lacquer, using an appropriate sized artist brush. I use deft brushing lacquer because it is a little thicker than shellac. I never use less than two coats, with 3 being what I use for any light colored open grained wood. This is not difficult to do, as long as you have good eyesight, but it ain't quick. With the inlays sealed you can dye or stain the piece. It is best to use water based dyes, or oil based stains or dyes. Don't use any kind of alcohol based dyes.
I have used this method under shellac, lacquer and varnish with no problems. I have attached a photo of a section of a federal sideboard I made, showing the results of sealing the inlays with brushing lacquer.
Rob,
I have the highest regard for your work. I am surprised to hear of you using Deft for this particular purpose. I believe you use a tung oil and alkyd resin varnish on your work, if not please fill in the blanks.
Deft is lacquer, a lacquer that has a wax in it's formulation. Lacquer is not reccommended as an undercoat to varnish because of differences in the films and the way they behave. Adhesion can further be complicated by the wax in the Deft. I'd have thought shellac would have been the choice although I do understand that the Deft is easier to control when cutting in the fine lines of your inlays.
So, I guess I'm asking if you have had any problems with the varnish over the Deft, how long you've been using Deft as a sealer on the inlays and if the origin of the Deft as a sealer under the varnish has a source other than your own experimentation.
I use shellac for purposes such as this and I do have to be very careful applying it because of the viscosity, it can tend to run. I have also applied varnish over Deft at the advice of an extremely knowlegable person but measures were taken to try to assure a lasting job. This was at the request of the president of a paints and finish manufacturer whose condo needed refinishing because the Deft was failing, a common problem with the stuff when fewer than 5 coats are applied.. The client assurred me that lacquer and varnish were not compatable and to avoid the blend in all but extreme circumstances.
So, what do you know that I do not?
Lee
Lee,
Well, to be honest I knew nothing about the wax in the deft. I first used the deft under varnish about 5 years ago, and I have since used it many times without a problem (I'd have heard about if it had been problem, believe me). The only thing I do that might contribute to a good bond between the lacquer and the varnish, is that I apply a thin coat of dewaxed shellac between the lacquer and the varnish. I didn't do this to promote a bond, but to make a barrier for the grain filler.
Now that you have brought up the potential problem, I will now use varnish sanding sealer for inlays on varnished surfaces. Thanks!
Rob Millard
I'm glad to help, Rob. Deft is, above all, the most pleasing finish from purely a tactile sense I've ever felt. It's the wax. Since Deft is an evaporative finish it will bond to itself extremely well but a reactive finish like varnish will need tooth to stick and the wax will complicate that bond. In addition, the films move differently when exposed to the same conditions so humidity and temperature can cause friction between the films.
Again Rob, kudos to you and your work, it's beautiful.
Lee
http://www.furniturecarver.com
Lee,
Lacquer, including Deft, doesn't contain wax. Even if it did, there would not be a problem topcoating with varnish as long as it's not polyurethane. It does seem a little odd to intentionally use lacquer under varnish, but there aren't any compatibility issues. Reversing the order (lacquer over varnish) can cause problems.
Paul
Paul,
I cannot remember where I obtained the information that Deft contains wax. While I agree that lacquer does not generally contain wax I believe Deft does. There is a tactile difference between Deft and most other Lacquers. Wax in the formulation was the reason given to me for this difference. The spec sheet in your link is certainly more complete than what comes on the can but it is incomplete nonetheless. I'm sure you recognize how ambigious "plasticising alkyd" is in describing the resin. As you know, the term "alkyd" does not even point to the source of the resin and the term "plasticising" could mean lots of different things.
I'm always trying to learn so I'd like to hear of your other sources of information on this formulation. I'd like to hear, also, why Deft is different in a tactile way from other lacquers if wax is not the reason.
As I said above, I cannot remember the source for my wax information because it was long ago. I'd like to be set straight if indeed I'm misinformed.
Lee
http://www.furniturecarver.com
I use Deft on my turnings, and some of my "square" work, so I was intrigued abot the "wax" comments. I emailed Deft, and received the following reply:
I can clear up the confusion. Yes it is not a good idea to apply a polyurethane varnish over deft Clear Wood Finish. The adhesion of a varnish over Deft Clear Wood Finish is not good. It is caused by the flatting agent, which is NOT WAX, it is Zinc Stearate, which also can cause poor adhesion for the varnish. The reason why it does not effect lacquer adhesion is due to the fact that lacquers remain soluble in lacquer solvents and the next coat bites in the previous coat, but that is not the case with a polyurethane varnish. The varnish has weak solvent (Mineral Spirits).
Lloyd Haanstra Deft Inc. 1(800) 544-3338 Ext. 733 http://www.deftfinishes.com
Paul,
Thanks for taking the time to run this down. Clearly zinc stearate is not wax. Perhaps it was explained to me as "wax-like" or "similar to wax" and I clung to the term "wax". Zinc stearate is used as a lubricant and mold release as well as a flatting agent so this would give Deft the tactile difference I notice that separates it from other lacquers.
It would be nice if manufacturers would list all of the ingredients in finishing products. I notice that zinc stearate is absent from the specs sheet you linked to in a previous post. Full disclosure would make this all easier.
Thanks again, Paul. I'll never again say that Deft contains wax. But I may say it has a wax-like additive...or contains a substance similar to wax...Hah, hah, ha.
Leehttp://www.furniturecarver.com
IMO, zinc stearate is sufficiently wax-like that calling it wax for the purpose of explaining how Deft feels is perfectly reasonable.
Thanks for the sentiment, Uncle Dunc, but I am genuinely glad to know the actual substance Deft uses to make it's lacquer stand out. Yes, it's effects are very wax-like.
Deft has the sweetest feel of any finish I've used, a pity it has a host of drawbacks that have led me to use different products. It ain't the wax that gives it that feel, it's the zinc stearate.
Heck, if more people like Paul would set me straight I could sound mildly intelligent from time to time, Hah, hah, ha...
Again, thanks to Paul for running this to ground.
Lee
Just a thought, but Deft Gloss doesn't contain flatteners and has the same texture/feel as the other sheens. It'd be my guess that it's the type(s) of cellulose nitrate, resins, and plasticizers used to make Deft that give the lacquer it's feel.
There are different grades of cellulose nitrate (nitocellulose) and they have different characteristics (and costs). Alkyds, acrylics, and/or vinyl resins are added to build the finish and improve cohesion/adhesion and strength. Plasticizers are added to improve the flexibility of the finish film since nitrocellulose is so brittle.
The low cost of Deft is a pretty clear indicator of the quality of the ingredients.
Paul
I feel that the low cost (aka: affordability and access to the general public) doesn't mean that Deft products are low quality. They are what they are, and work for what I want them to do. I'm not set up to spray Nitro, but I use Deft as a wiping finish on my turnings, as many woodturners do. Just because Wal-Mart carries Deft doesn't mean it's an inferior product, just that it's available to all of us.
Signed, The Other Paul S. (I'll change that screen name this weekend, I promise!)
Gee, I thought Deft was the high price spread. Costs about $25/gallon at Lowes, while Home Depot has a $17/gallon Nitrocellulose that works great. ________________________Charlie Plesums Austin, Texashttp://www.plesums.com/wood
Charlie, I've never used a true Nitro lacquer. so help me out, here. Deft is sold as a "brushing" lacquer, so I suppose the drying time is longer than spray types. Is that correct? Deft still seems to dry (set up) plenty fast, at least for my uses. What do you think?
When I started using Lacquer a couple years ago, someone said "use Nitrocellulose Lacquer." So when I was in Home Depot, I saw generic (Parks?) "Nitrocellulose Lacquer" so I bought it, and learned to use it. Like most, it needs to be drastically thinned - think 50% for starters. It dries fast, rubs out well, melts one layer into the previous, repairs well, etc. Before I dared use it for stuff I sell, I tested it with hot and cold liquids, booze, etc., to be sure it was stable - and it passed with flying colors.
When a new Lowes opened nearby, I saw they sell Deft, but it was something over $25 per gallon instead of $17, and as you note, is listed as a brushing lacquer. So I have stayed with the generic.
Occasionally I have a problem, easily explained in theory, when spraying in high humidity (often at the end of a day, when it cools down and the humidity rises, and I am pushing for "just one last coat"!). So I have avoided spraying in high humidity.
Some of the recent conversations on this site have suggested that Deft's slower drying and perhaps some additives in Deft might solve my humidity problem. The argument and the experiences of the other folks sound good. But being a cheapskate, I don't like paying 50% more, especially when I have a shelf full of the cheap stuff. So I haven't tried Deft yet, but I probably will. When I do, I will use it as a spraying lacquer. ________________________Charlie Plesums Austin, Texashttp://www.plesums.com/wood
Charlie,
For "blushing" problems caused by spraying lacquer in high humidity, try adding a bit of Retarder Thinner to your lacquer. Retarder is a "richer" lacquer thinner, and as its name implies, slows down the drying time slightly. This keeps the surface of the freshly sprayed finish from chilling (thru evaporation of thinner) and attracting condensation of moisture from the humid air.
Addition of retarder also will allow you to brush "spraying" lacquer. It's already in brushing lacquers like deft; keeps it liquid long enough to get it on the wod and get your brush out of it before it starts to set up.
Cheers,
Ray
I've never used the high gloss. I cannot recall knowlingly running my hands over a high gloss Deft so I can't say if it has that same silky feel of the semigloss.
Leehttp://www.furniturecarver.com
If I'm not mistaken, zinc stearate is used in sanding sealers to prevent gumming up sandpaper. Also, there are stearated sandpapers designed for sanding finishes.
Paul,
I'd like to ask that you use a different screen name. I've been using "Paul S" since March of 02 and it's obviously confusing for two posters to use the same name.
Thanks,
Paul
I am suprised that prospero allowed that..?
Go Stab yourself Ya Putz! Ya think I Parked here?
Login ID's are constrained to be unique. Nicknames are not. My speculation is that not requiring uniqueness allows much faster response when someone changes a nickname, since they don't have to search the database of all registered Prospero users, but I could be wrong.
makes sense..when I had came back to BT and knots after a long time , I had forgot my particulars..so I am all new, but one log in ID (spheramid) got bounced because I already had it registerd..
Go Stab yourself Ya Putz! Ya think I Parked here?
Sorry for the confusion, I'll use a different screen name in the future.
Wow! Very nice federal sideboard. Is it a reporduction of a pertricular peice, your own deign, or someone else's?
Stephen J. Gaal
Stephen,
Because I lack the ability to design a piece of furniture, the sideboard is a copy. The original is shown in Volume 4 of American Antiques from the Israel Sack Collection, and is attributed to Annapolis, Maryland c. 1800. I appreciate your comment
Rob Millard
rainey,
Follow Rob's advice using shellac. I believe there is a product called "Sealcoat" that is a dewaxed and premixed shellac ideal for your purpose.
Lee
rianey,
Something that hasn't been discussed, perhaps because of your intended choice of woods (mahogany and oak) is the use of potassium dichromate for coloring inlaid work. It reacts with the tannin in woods, so would darken both the inlay and the ground in this case. But if you used maple, or holly (both typical choices for a light contrast to mahogany) the "potash" as the old timers call it will darken the mahogany but not the lightwood. No need to mask off or inpaint the inlay. My hat's off to Rob, his hand is way steadier than mine. Maybe his eyesight is better, too!
Another option is to not use stain at all, and just let the natural contrast of the woods come thru. The mahogany will darken somewhat with time.
Regards,
Ray
I have used the potassium dichromate several times and it will slightly yellow maple more than holly (which is hard to get) It also darkens end grain much more than side grain, so crotch mahogany veneer for example requires a lower concentration to match the color of the straight grain background, or else the crotch will come out darker. It is infinitely easier than trying to mask the inlays with shellac or lacquer. The lines will never look perfect because shellac especially will bleed off a little, at least in my hands, almost no matter what I do. I have heard that the potassium dichromate is carcinogenic and should be handled with great care - gloves etc...
Jay Stallman
Jayst,
I use a dust mask too when steel wooling after using potassium dichromate.
Ray
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