I love Lee Valley tools. I just got a free thank you gift from them (A cool little LED flashlight) for returning something they sent to me accidentally. It was no big deal, because they send this little postage paid card with every order, in case you want to return something. Their Veritas line of tools is great. I just received my bullnose plane, and it is very well made. I’ve broken a Japenese saw and sent it back (at no cost) and they sent me one back within a week with a hand-written note saying they were sorry for the inconvenience. It’s great to know that there are some comapanies that still value customer service.
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I have a LV store just down the street and I love to shop there. The staff know me and say hi as soon as I walk in the door. I have to say though I feel real guilty when I return something, so much so that I spend the refund plus some more on something else.
Scott C. Frankland
Scott's WOODWORKING Website
"He who has the most tools may not win the race of life but he will sure make his wife look like a good catch when she goes to move on."
I agree. I buy a lot of stuff from Lee Valley -- and the order takers are knowledgeable, and unfailingly polite. The products are high quality, often innovative, and reasonably priced.
And I have had several conversations with various tech people over the years -- and they are patient, even more knowledgeable, and equally polite.
All of us are rightfully quick to complain about bad products and shoddy service, so I am glad you brought up this opportunity to give praise where it is due.
So if there is by chance a woodworker around these forums who does not know about LV, you should check them out.
http://www.leevalley.com/home/main.asp
Well, I'd love to tell you what my favorite store is but that would violate the rules of this board.
I will tell you that we have recently had a major change in personnel and that our goal now is to get back to the way things were when most of our customers were our neighbors and our kids all went to school together.
Like you, many of our customers seem to feel guilty when they return something. I do everything I can to put them at ease and just like you, they end up spending most of the refund before they leave. But, that is not my goal or my agenda. I only want to be sure that our customers are completely satisfied with their purchases.
I take back the products with a smile and talk to them about their families or their jobs or just the weather with the very same demeanor that I have when I'm selling them something.
Today, I had a customer that wanted to buy a planer to clean up some old painted redwood. I explained to him why it was a bad choice for that kind of job and further explained that I would not be able to take it back when he found that out. Sure, I lost the planer sale and since we don't carry paint remover he didn't buy anything at all. I did show him a Performax Drum Sander that would do the job but at twice the price so I recommended he try the paint remover method first.
I would rather have a satisfied person walk out the door with nothing in their hands because I know they'll be back.
Sincerely;
The Tool Guy
Do you guys do mail order?
Is it against the rules to send me an email? It would be a pleasure to buy from someone with your knoweldge and service attitude.
There are other people who are selling stuff from the web sites they include with their posts. I don't see why you can't send the info to me via email -- especially if I ask for it.
Thanks.
I've bought a few items mail order from LV and can highly recommend them. Here at the edge of the world (New Zealand), mail order get a thorough test - it isn't possible to send stuff any further (well, you can try ... but it inevitably falls off the edge) and LV has always done it for me.
Yes you can, I've seen it.
Cross the road from the airport at Christchurch and ask for a ticket south.
Hey! Another Kiwi?
But I must have missed something in the thread?
Seen what, mate?
http://www.macpherson.co.nz
Edited 8/10/2004 1:22 am ET by kiwimac2
Not a Kiwi (I enjoyed last saturday night - particularly as Smith and Gregan are both locals)
I was referring to the Antarctic HQ opposite the airport, which I came through on the way to walking the Heaphy track last November - great trip and some really interesting country that is very different from our high country in Victoria and New South Wales.
Saw some timber and craft efforts, including the arts centre in Christchruch which had some nice but small stuff and a lot of pretty ordinary commercial output. Couldnt find anything substantial in local furniture in the area we passed this trip; but do recall from 3 years ago some very impressive timberwork in a wooden cathedral in Auckland - it included one Thompson (mouse man) piece that was no better than any of the local craftsmen. Also a really great relief carving done in chipboard 3" thick that covered an entire wall in MacDonalds. Think it was in Rotarua but not sure. If the Hawaians had ever seen it you would have lost a national treasure.
Can easily understand how you need the mail order - worse than here, there cant be enough population to sustain a good tool supply industry over there. The offset is that there is some really great design such as HNT Gordon and others.
OK. Still puzzled but no mind.
You have to look hard to find craft furniture and studio woodworkers anywhere in NZ. Used to be more, but the market is small and concentrated in the cities.
Tool and machine shops likewise. My nearest is Christchurch, a 6 hour drive from where I live. Couldn't function without mailorder, but it sure does add to the price.
Nothing to do with this string, but since you're in Aussie, I once lucked onto a you beaut exhibition in Orbost, Victoria, when camper vanning the Princess Highway. As I recall it's an annual show. You guys are lucky with all that unusual timber, and apparently not so hard to come by.
It's really getting off the thread (sorry guys) but I've just had an email from a softwood mill about an hour from me - a small operation milling larch and douglas fir for house framing - where the manager has been putting aside for me clear, quarter-sawn, slow-grown clean white larch. He's sending me 7 pieces of 200 by 25mm, average 5 metres long. That's the fun in this business eh!
Cheers
Look out for South Africa!
Edited 8/10/2004 7:56 am ET by kiwimac
>> He's sending me 7 pieces of 200 by 25mm, average 5 metres long.
Cool! I'm looking forward to pictures of that 16 foot long library table. Or is it going to be a 16 foot tall hutch?
As soon as they come off the truck they'll be shorter!
I'm really just being a nuisance to this guy - to make any money they have to focus on productivity, and special orders or custom cutting is something they don't do!
He's been pulling a few choice boards out of the line for me as a personal favour. Most of what they cut is small diameter slow-grown plantation logs, using a very efficient small Swedish mill that achieves very high conversion rates. But they don't resaw, hence I'm happy to take what he can give me, in whatever dimensions it comes. I'll cut to length and stack under cover.
M
Nikkiwood, let me think about the email. I am so busy now, I really don't have time to respond to email on a regular basis. I would love to help you out but I don't know if I can commit to another sales venue at the moment. I'll get back to you with a decision in the future.Sincerely;
The Tool Guy
Tool Guy: Have you seen the "Hot PC Router" thread? Would be interested in your opinion on the problem!http://forums.taunton.com/tp-knots/messages?msg=18702.1
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Porter Cable rep is due in soon, I'll discuss the problem with him and see what he say's. I havent had any customer complaints yet. Sounds to me like there might be a production run problem and unfortunately he got two from the same run.Sincerely;
The Tool Guy
Thanks for checkin' it out!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I have to put in my two cents for my local Woodcraft store. Their return policy has saved me so much time ( 2 DW 735 planers) ; no packing up a machine and waiting for the new one to be delivered. While I may spend a few more dollars than ordering over the internet, after you experience a problem your glad to have spent $10-15 more.
I have to second the motion on Woodcraft. My store here in Richmond is top notch. The guys and gals are extremely friendly and knowledgeable. While I sometimes think their prices are a little higher than I'd like to pay, I feel the trade off is worth it.
Every time I've made a larger purchase, >$300 I guess, I get a thank you note from whomever helped me. I wish I could find that level of service in any other business in town.
Kell
I like Lee Valley too -- they've been very helpful when I placed an order over the internet with the wrong router bit on it, and I called on Monday and said "help!" The guy who answered knew exactly how to get the order fixed and made sure the shipment was right.
I read on another forum about an incident last year when LV found out that a bunch of rules that they had sold did not match the exact description in the catalog. They sent notices to all the customers who had received the rules and offered to replace them with the correctly-made item. Wow. Sure don't expect that from Tool Crib, LOL.
My favorite local place to shop is DSC tools in Poulsbo, WA. They carry several lines of tools, CMT and Amana router bits with huge displays. Although I've never bought a major tool from them (saving up for a DC), they've always been very helpful with small purchases a d questions. Only thing that bugs me is that the owner will "bad-mouth" other businesses, which I think is very, very tacky.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I want to put in a good word for Eagle Tools in So. Cal. I've ordered several machines from them. Jesse B. has his staff clean and tune up all the machines before shipping them out. Great people!
Lee Valley is an awesome store, great catalogs and good prices. What could be better than a cold winter day, a hot cup of coffee, and the new Lee Valley Tool / Hardware catalog ?
cncman61
My local Mom & Pop store.
I might save a couple of bucks on mail order, but I like supporting the guy (and gal) I can get advice from. Its great to be able to get something when I need it.
Mail orders are good for the hard-to-find or very expensive items, but if we don't support the local stores, we will quickly lose the option.
Sincerely,
Dan
> ...if we don't support the local stores, we will quickly lose the option.
I agree totally!
Never have bought a tool mail order. Don't intend to. I need to see the thing in my hand before I fork out the cash no matter how insignificant.
My tool store(s) of choice are -
For saw like stuff and small power tools: Eastside saw in Bellevue WA. Used to be near where I lived but I've moved 70+ miles north. If I need something I know they carry, I'll either wait until I have an occasion to go back to the 'big city' or make a special trip if I'm in a rush. They carry the full line of Delta, Jet, Powermatic, Porter Cable, etc., etc.
For hand tools and the like I shop at the Woodcraft store in Seattle. Most of the people I see working in there are retired boatbuilders, journeyman cabinet makers and at least one experienced wood turner. Can't say that for brand-X woodworking store .... anymore.
Whenever I've had a problem with anything I've bought from either of these places, and it's very, very seldom that I have, - it's been dealt with right away with no double talk or hassle.
Support your local businesses!!!
...........
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
I have been trying to buy from our local tool guy, Godwin Tools, first before doing anything else. Now that our socialist state of New Jersey is demanding that we keep track of ALL internet/out of state catalogue purchases for tax purposes, I am motivated to go to my local guy who remembers who the heck I am! Not to say I have not received great service from the catalogues...heck I have to keep those wish-books coming, dont I!!.
Now that our socialist state of New Jersey is demanding that we keep track of ALL internet/out of state catalogue purchases for tax purposes
How on earth do they enforce that? I would think most people would ignore that one.
-- Barry, in sales-tax-free Oregon (but the income tax do take a bite).
I have a friend whose home based business was audited by the sales tax people in MN. He spent 3 days sitting at the dining room table poring over 3 years worth of records (that had taken my friend endless hours to gather in the form they required).
He was looking for any out-of -state mail order purchases -- all of which, by law, required the MN resident to remit sales tax to the state. For his 3 days of work, he was able to nail her for one such purchase (about $60, as I recall).
I asked the auditor if this law pertained to individuals (as well as businesses), and he said it did. I then asked if many did, and he said no. However, if one is ever audited and they can find any evidence of such purchases, they are entitled to collect the taxes (along with penalties and interest).
With the enormous increase in on-line sales, I would think the states are losing a ton of money in sales taxes. And I am surprised there haven't been more aggressive efforts to collect -- or more agitation among the states for a national sales tax. It is probably only a matter of time...................
like most everything else in NJ, these rules are for those who look at something AFTER the fact. In this case, it would definitely be in an audit. Most rules here don't stop people from doing the wrong thing. Just look at our esteemed governor, for example,... and Im not talking about being gay!!! so don't anyone go THERE!
I gotta second the WoodCraft Stores. I usually get to the one in south Seattle when I can and usually walk out with $200 + worth of stuff.
Now when you get a handwritten note from the store owner thanking you for your business, I'll be back.
I live about mile and a half from tool heaven- Seven Corners Hardware. If you're ever in the Twin Cities, it's a must see. Best store I've ever been in, although if I ever get down to Sarge's neck of the woods I want to check out Highland Hardware.
Ballew Tool and Saw, a local (for me) outfit. Great staff, and great service. They also have the benefit of an outstanding sharpening service in-house.
Hey everyone,
I know that this will ruffle feathers (but I love a good feather ruffling) I love buying tools at Home Depot. The sales people never practice the one-upmanship that is so common at Wood Craft or Rockler. I hate having my questions answerd with a monologue about all their experience, especially all their comissioned work (yet they are working for 8 to 15 bucks an hour at a retail store). At HD they are used to helping pros and don't offer me advise unless I ask for it (which I do). Also, as is aparent on this forum, hobiest and pros think very differently, the sales people at the woodworking stores seem geared towards the hobbiest mode of thinking. I am not knocking hobbiests, I know that most all of the hobiest on this forum are better at the craft than I. IF I can find someone to answer my questions at HD they are usually very pratical. There is an amazing selection at great prices. I know that if I don't like what I bought for any reason at all they will take it back, no questions asked.
And, believe it or not, they know my name.
Of course HD does not sell cabinet saws, good hand planes, sharpening supplies, finishing products, jigs, etc. But if you need a router and already know that you want the 3 horse PC, it is right down the street at HD along with shopvacs, drills, and all the basic tools that we buy regularly.
Mike
Mike,
HOME DEPOT? RUFFLED FEATHERS? YOU GOTTA BE KIDDING!
Now, unless you own HD, don't take any of this personally. You've given me a GOLDEN OPPORTUNITY to un-RUFFLE my feathers which our local HD has so rudely ruffled up.
Man, I don't know where your HD is, but the HD we shop at is NOT AT ALL like yours. Our local HD is in Chicago but very close to our home in Oak Park. Let me site a few experiences that we have had over the last 8 months or so.
Staff Knowledgeable?
The staff (for the most part) is NOT knowledgeable at all. Once we were looking for slim-line breakers for our newly installed electrical panel box. I asked the guy in that department if they had them and he answered gruffly, "Nah. We don't carry those" and walked off. I looked around a bit and found them for myself.
I was at one time looking for metal braided flex hose for one of our sinks. These are the type that have the proper fitting at each end and come in various lengths. Again I got "we don't carry those" and again, I found what I needed for myself. If I ask too many questions I get that 'deer-in-the-headlights' look, so I rarely ask anything anymore.
Friendly Check-Out?
The checkers never say "Hello. How are you?", they just grab whatever you have and tell you what the bill is. Usually, they are chatting with each other and have absolutely no interest in you whatsoever. It makes you feel like you're bothering them. Yesterday the girl just threw the items we had bought into the basket. She could have cared less that our purchases pay her salary. My better-half has to keep me reined-in tight when we shop there. I could go on and on.
Other Pleasantries
On many occasions the aisles are blocked for stocking. Why not do this prior to opening or after closing? All you can do is wait if you want what you came for. In addition to this their isles are usually cluttered with boxes, baskets or sheetgood carts.
Check out takes longer than shopping because they never have all 5 or 6 of the check out counters open. Usually they only have 2 open. And, if you have the misfortune to be there at about 5:00 PM or so, they close ALL of their normal checkout counters leaving only the Contractor checkout open. Nothing like a little convenience.
So why do we continue to shop there? Because it is the closest large DIY store in the vicinity. That's the ONLY reason. We have a new Lowe's about 30 minutes away but that's just too far to go. But it's looking closer and closer each time we shop at HD.
In all fairness, I will say that SOME of the staff are friendly and a few even understand what you are asking them for. Once I went in looking for window glass but had the funny feeling that I had never seen any in the store. The first HD gentleman that I happened upon I asked and he very politely replied that HD did not carry window glass and even told me where to buy it locally. I must have looked like a piano just fell on me. I thanked him several times - I think. I'm sure I was speechless. I left stunned realizing that I had just met the very first HD staffer that was BOTH knowledgeable AND polite.
We recently moved from Southern New Mexico and we shopped at HD for all of our DIY necessities. The New Mexico HD staff WELCOMED you at the door! What are concept! The Chicago store has a security guard staring you down. Then when you leave, security checks your receipt against the contents of your bag or cart. And the security person is a whole 5 feet from the checkout counter.
Now what could anyone possibly steal between checkout and the security guy? The answer is nothing because that's all there is between checkout and the security person. If the real reason that they have security at checkout is to check on the checkout clerks then they should do that and not inconvenience their shoppers.
These two stores are like night and day. What a difference! And yes, I understand these two stores are worlds apart, but I would guess that HD has policies that apply to all stores regardless of location. Like keep the aisles clear so customers can get their shopping carts through. Another may (should?) be to have some consideration of their customers. Too much to ask? It appears so, at least at this Chicago HD. It would be great to at least hear a "Thanks for shopping at HD."
Mike, I gotta thank you. You've given me an great opportunity to blow all of this off. I feel much better now.
Regards,
Phillip
Here's one. I walked into a new Lowe's yesterday, which is three minutes closer than the HD. All I needed was a couple of 10 foot 2x4s. I didn't see any with the other framing lumber, so in some disbelief (They have to carry these!) I asked the clerk. She didn't know (of course) and called the expert, who announced that Lowe's doesn't carry 10 foot 2x4s. Incredible! So I walked down a couple of aisles and there they were. Spent five minutes looking through the pile to find two reasonably straight ones.
These big box stores are just amazingly bad. The problem is I don't even know where else I can find framing lumber.
Mark,
I have thought about these "big box stores" as you call them and can only surmise the following.
In large metropolitan areas such as Chicago, it's a lot of trouble to shop around because of heavy traffic, construction, distance between stores and so on. The large DIY vendors know this and take the attitude that most of their shoppers are a captive audience, so to speak. I believe this to be true because I HATE to put up with driving in heavy traffic to purchase anything from one of these stores. So, since they know that you'll buy there no matter what, they fatten their bottom line by hiring unskilled labor who could care less about their jobs or the customers who shop there. In my opinion, this is 'one stop shopping' at its worst meaning that we, the customers, will tolerate poor service because it is less problematic than having to drive around for a better DIY store. I do not believe that it has anything to do with saving money. It has more to do with keeping the stress level at the minimun.
The very first time that I entered the HD close to Oak Park I was amazed at the attitude of the hired help, the clutter in the aisles, and the general dreariness of the store. The HD that we used to shop at in New Mexico was the polar opposite of this store: the help was courteous, they were knowledgeable, the store was clean and uncluttered and, in general, was a joy to shop in. And, I do not recall having to stand in line for very long to check out.
I have also pondered whether or not all of this has to do with life in these large metropolitan areas. The rudeness and general unhappiness of most people that we encountered in the Oak Park area of Chicago was very obvious to us. I spoke to one of our new neighbors about this during the recently past holiday season and he surmised that it was just the pressure of the holidays. Well, the holidays have passed and nothing has changed.
So, it is no wonder to me that the staff in your Lowe's do not even know that they carry 10 ft 2x4's. Perhaps this 'expert' doesn't even know that they carried 2x4's and this is why he/she said they didn't carry 10 footers. Who knows?
And I hear you about having to spend the afternoon going through the pile to find a few relatively straight 2x4's. Recently, I needed a 4'x8' sheet of particle board and had to remove the top 4 sheets to get to one which did not look as though it had laid out on the interstate for a week. Do people actually buy this mangled or twisted lumber? Perhaps they do. I'm at a loss on this.
I'd love to know what criteria these stores have in regards to hiring both staff and management. There must be a better way, but I don't know what it is - for now.
Regards,
Phillip
It is all about management. Employees take their cues from the store manager. When you walk through a big box with clean aisles and courteous employees -- its becasue the manager has mandated courtesy and clean aisles. And that explains why some stores in a given area are great and others are .......... well, less than great.
In your case, since you have a list of general complaints, I would find out the name of the store manager (and the regional manager for the area), and write a letter. In fact you have already written the essence of the letter in your posts.
They keep close track of this stuff, and a well-reasoned, articulate list of specific complaints (which yours is) is a powerful inducement to change.
"It is all about management."
Nikkiwood,
As usual, we're in agreement. Three or four years ago I found myself looking at their help wanted listings via the internet and found them seeking human resource managers for virtually all of their locations - speaks volumes about their collective management skills.
As much as management has to do with the quality of each store, I think customer preferences and tolerances carry equal weight: when customers will not tolerate mediocrity, the store will lose sales if they don't shape-up; if the customers keep buying, despite mediocrity, upper management tends to say, "Sales are good, therefore, any problems must be inconsequential."
As customers, we usually get what we demand and reward. If we keep giving our money to mediocre performers, they have little incentive to improve their performance.
My two cents,
-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
HD does respond to customers, as does Lowes.
We had a new store open and they were way short of cashiers. After about 10 minutes I left, and made it a point to call HD to let them know that if I had to wait 10 minutes on a weekend while they had only one cashier on duty, I'd save myself the time and head to Lowes, and I'd probably never go back to HD again. Next time I went there were more cashiers and no wait. It helps when you are a customer who routinely spends $300 there every single month (please let the renovation stop :( ).
A few months ago I bought an Hitachi framing nailer compressor combo. HD was running a $100 gift card rebate offer. I filled out all the forms, copied all the UPC's, and 6 weeks later got a letter from their rebate center that key info was missing. Since the missing info was clearly on my photocopies, I sent a complaint/ heads-up to Atlanta as well to let them know the rebate people weren't on the ball. A few days later the $100 gift card shows up via UPS letter. Turns out this was an appreciation gift card for bringing it to their attention as the card from MN showed up a couple weeks later. I didn't expect it, but feedback sometimes has its rewards. I'm sure they looked at the CC info on my receipt and with their computer network were able to deduce I'd spent well over $10K there in the last few years. Money talks!
Ditto for Lowes. I was waiting for a particular model of dishwasher to come in. I called Lowes, and got transferred to appliances where no one answered the phone over the course of several minutes. I called their headquarters in NC, and the person there connected me to the local manager, who then went looking for the person in appliances with me on the line. When I went in to get the dishwasher, they were very attentive.
It really doesn't do any good for anyone to bring up their complaints here.
That being said, I am fortunate to have BARBO as my local heavy equipment dealer. First name basis, no sales tax, and they just drop the pallet on the back of my pickup.
I disagree with you on only one thing: I think it is worthwhile to air complaints in these forums.
Reading your story (and how you dealt with these issues) is not only instructive, but in a way, it empowers others to not sit idly by when they receive shoddy service.
That fella with the miserable Chicago store is a case in point. I would bet my last dollar if the regional manager (and maybe one level above that person) heard this litany, things would change in that store in a hurry.
The competition for our dollars is ferocious out there, and you can certainly turn that to your advantage when you have a legitimate gripe.
I have a hard time finding straight lumber at the best lumber yards. Unless you are willing to pay for the good stuff you will always have to cull through the stack and lower your standards. The ten foot 2x4s are at the bottom of the bay under the ten foot 2x6s, the second or third bay down. The way they set up the bays they have to put like lengths together. All the 12 footers are in the same bay because they wont fit in any other bay.
As far as the cashier not knowing......that sucks.
Mikeplease excuse my spelling.
Phillip and others,
I know that service varies wildly at HD and Lowes from store to store and region. I live and work in a well to do area outside Dallas. The HDs around here are great, most all the employees are country folk who have hands on experience with the stuff in their dept. Occasionally I work in ....not so good areas, like Arlington or Dallas proper. The socioeconomic class of the neighborhood makes the difference. I hate the attitude that the young thugish employees give me. This is also true of gas stations, grocery stores, fast food, even the police are nicer out here.
I have never been to Chicago, but on TV it seems like a urban area with a economicly depressed inner city. If this is the labor pool that the stores rely on then the store is screwed. I know the manager at a large retail store in Dallas. His customers are highend, his employees work for $8 an hour. He got in trouble for discriminating hiring practices because he refused to hire any of the getto style kids that walked in dressed like a rap artist with a loose grasp on the english language. Instead his staff was almost solely white middle class. Basicly if you were to go only by the applications it looked like he turned away all the blacks and only hired prepy whites. The owner is from Panama! (he is very dark and looks black to some). After 3 months of legal trouble he resigned. Now the store uses a third party company to do the hireing and the service has suffered tremendously. The sales are down enough that the owner is thinking about relocating the store.
This story may not apply to your HD, I don't know. I do know that a retail store is only as good as its employees.
Also I am primarily a remodeler, I would never ask someone at HD about faceframe joinery (nor would I ask wood craft or Rocklers) ; I would ask yall first then I'd buy the best book on the subject I could find.
Mike
please excuse my spelling.
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