Anybody have much experience building solid entry(exterior) doors? I live in Wisconsin so there will be great temperature differences on the interior and exterior of the doors at times(like half the year!). Keeping it flat I assume is the biggest challenge. I think gluing up quarter sawn stock, then veneering with a 1/8″ solid would be the best thing for the stiles and rails. Am I correct? What else do I need to consider? Thanks!
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Replies
I've made several solid wood doors & have never seen the problem your concerned with. Flat and square stock are the most important things necessary to get a great flat door. I don't think that the temperature gradient through the door is as big a problem as moisture is. I always used epoxy to bond the rails & stiles together hoping to avoid the creap that could result from weak glues. Epoxy, if using the correct catalyst, will give you plenty of time for assembly & clamping before it sets up. Make sure you use a very good finish to help the door combat moisture over the coming years. I have had a lot of success with marine varnish, but I'm sure you'll get plenty of other suggesting when it comes to finishing the door.
The worst thing that can happen is that you might need to cut the door up to make a slightly smaller one. Hint, make the door slightly over size so if you do have to do salvage work, the second try won't be too small for the jamb.
I'm getting to be a master at fixing my mistakes. I hope I've helped you!
Momo380
luvsawdust,
I agree with you, movement should be a concern with any door. Here are my thoughts:
I believe doors are more than 1 3/4" thick material joined together. They need to withstand the tendancies to distort, especially over time. To accomplish this you may want to consider the following rail and style construction method:
- edge glue 1 3/4" x 1 3/4" x (length of rail or style) pieces together to a width slightly greater than your rail and style widths
- the outer edges of this lamination will be visible so use good material there
- the inner core of this lamination will not be visible so lesser grade material is sufficient
- once cured, plane the lamination to 1 1/2" thick
- laminate a 3/16" thick vaneer onto the front and back of the glue ups
- once cured, dimension the rail or style to finished dimensions then mill
This construction method should provide you with a solid and stable rail and style.
Good luck,
Bill
I've built quite a few doors, many different ways.
You can do a stave core door, which I believe someone else mentioned, makes for nice flat styles. I don't stave the rails, I use solid stock for those and mortise them in.
This set of walnut doors (attached pic) that are on a house in Iowa are done with a method similar to face frames, there are 5 alternating layers. These doors are about 3" thick and weigh a ton!
For your two outside and one center layers make the styles and rails as you would want them to show for the finished door, using butt joints with pocket screws, just like a face frame.
For the two inside/second layers alternate the rails to go all the way across the top and bottom.
We glued these up like face frames, pocket screws and all. When all the layers are made up and the glue is dry we took the pocket screws out and stacked the 5 layers and epoxyed them together (making sure the pockets screw holes are to the inside). We made them about a 1/8" over sized and trimmed it to size when epoxy was set up.
Our panels are held in with bollection(sp?) moulding.
Doug
Awesome doors! What kind of finish did you use on them? By the reflection of the flash they look flawless. If I understand your description right, then you would see the end grain of the middle two layers rails on the edges of the door? Or did you add an additional edge strip (for lack of a better term) to hide the end grain once you glued it up?Excellent work!Brian
Edited 12/1/2005 10:36 am ET by BrianF
Brian
Yes you would see the end grain of the two layers.
Sorta looks like a through mortise. Often times I build interior doors at 1 3/4" and if I use this method I will use three layers.
I dont know the finish, I didnt do that but I think it was SPAR maybe, not real sure.
Doug
Thanks for all the advisce so far. Nice doors Doug! I really like the construction method you describe. It solves the problem of tenoning very wide top and bottom rails. Did you have any of the lock problems that were addressed with the thickness of 3"?Is there any insulation between your two panels? How many hinges on those monsters? Next are a few other concerns. What do you do about gaskets and sweeps? Anybody have a source for these items? Thanks!
there are 4 hinges, ball bearing type.
If I remember correctly the door lock/hardware was some company with either California or Arizona in the name, sorry not much help, its been awhile.
I would think Baldwin would have something, I'm sure there are others.
No insulation, just made the same as a 1 3/4 door.
As far as sweeps go I remember the bottom of the door has a rubber gasket/sweep of some sort that seals fairly well against the threshold and there is weather striping at the astrigal(sp?). Its the same kind that's let into an 1/8" grove just as typical doors have around the perimeter. The name of the stuff slips my mind right now. If you cant find anything let me know, I'm sure I can dig up some info on it.
When I was in Iowa there wasn't a local place to go to to buy nicer stuff for door thresholds and such, here in Austin, TX we have a place that has all the stuff on hand and its nice to see what your getting and how it works before buying it on the net.
Doug
Sounds like a lot of work to make a door but if it works, who can argue. I have been building doors for 20 years using material from 1-1/4 to 3" thick on exterior doors. Usually a 10" bottom stile with double tenons. The one thing I do to all exterior doors is a double panel. Because of temp differentials of up to 120 degrees (-40F outside to 80F inside) this allows the panels to move independantly and greatly reduce their tendancy to work against themselves.
Barrie
I learned how to do the doors that way and continued to do so for some time. Then I moved down here to Austin Tx and the shop I worked in did them with stave core styles and solid rails, mortised in, panels were one piece, we dont get to much cold weather to worry about.
It helped having a vacume bag for the staves, made it quick.
I see some advantage to doing them both ways. I dont make more then 1/2 dozen doors in any one year so whatever I learn from guys like you that do it all the time I incorporate!!!
Doug
Hi all,
New here.
Put an intro in general.
I've been building a few "cabin style" doors nothing like what ya'll are. Those walnut doors are magnificent! Curious though, what type of glue are you using to laminate the staves? And to lay up the 3/16 veneer? This method seems the most logical for rail and style doors. It seems that any commercially manufactured door I've cut into uses this method.
Thanks SJ
SJ
I've used epoxy and titebond II and had good luck with both.
When I learned to do the stave core, which I do like, I used titebond II, my boss would have been to tight to pay for epoxy!
I have heard that you could buy premade stave core's but again, my boss was to tight, he didnt factor labor in and always thought it was cheaper to make.
Doug
Doug
Thanks for the info. Premade stave cores sounds interesting because I lack a large enough jointer to flatten one side before planing. An 8" is on my wish list though.
Thanks again
SJ
Even if you dont have a jointer or wide belt sander you may find a shop that would do it for you for a nominal charge.
Just a thought
Doug
That's a good idea, my cabinetmaker friend has a wide sander but I don't think he has a jointer. I really like the idea of jointing one side dead flat before putting it through the planer/sander to dimension it. Or am I being too fussy? How did you dimension after glue up?
Thanks a lot for answering, it's good to hear from someone who has practical experience doing this. The fellow I work for is interested in building our own entry doors. I'd like to begin figuring out methods before a project gets dropped in my lap.
BTW I'm thinking poplar for a core material.
SJ
SJ
I flatened mine with a wide belt, seamed to do the job fine. If thats what you have available to you I wouldnt hesitate to use it. I had access to a wide jointer but didnt use it for this application, I dont think you need it.
I was lucky, I had access to a vacume. When you get ready to put the face material on the cores there isnt anything better then a vacume. Not saying that you cant do it with clamps, because I have, but the vacume is ideal.
I've used popular, sugar pine, and even medite(I think thats the proper name, its the exterior MDF) and had good luck with all of these as a core material.
You need any more help just ask, there's plenty people here that have done this.
Doug
Thanks for the info. I'm sure it will come in handy.
As luck would have it, I stopped by my neighbor's place to admire his new bandsaw on Sat. and Santa had brought him a new 8" joiner, still in the crate.
He may become my new best friend.
He may become my new best friend.
Atta boy!
You can never have to many "best friends".
Doug
Hi All,
I've never built doors larger than 1" bifold closet doors. Currently I am working on a design for carraige doors for my garage/shop. I live in sothern california, so harsh weather is not a concern. I am planning on building them with solid wood, mortise and tenon joinery for the frame and tongue and groove for the panels. Would this be appropriate for the climate here? Can some one give me a description of a stave core door in laymans terms, I think I understand the principals but I am not sure.
Thanks,
-wes
Wes
1" bifold closet doors
Them's some small doors! I assume you meant 1'?
Your preferred method of joinery will be fine, cant beat M&T for the styles and rails and the panels with t & g will be fine as well.
I'm attaching a crude drawing, easier for me to show rather then explain!
Pay no attention to the scale of the drawing, it was quick.
I glue up my staves and then when there done you need to flaten them, either with a planner, jointer or even a wide belt sander. Then apply your skins.
My end pieces are usually only about 1/2" thick and my skins are somewhere in the neighborhood of 1/8" or 1/4", depending on the thickness of the door.
I've used anything from popular, sugar pine, MDF, Medite, white oak and probably some other woods for my staves.
Hope that explains it
Doug
Doug
Sorry for any confusion the doors I made were a pair of bifold doors for a 60" opening so each door was about 15" wide 78" tall and 1" thick. Can you please resend your drawing I don't think it attached.
Thanks,
Wes
Sorry Wes, didnt even notice that the pic was AWOL!
Here, try this
Doug
Thanks Doug,
Thats what I imagined but the visual made it absolutely clear. I assume you use a cheaper wood for the staves, doug fir or poplar?
-wes
Yes, both of those will work for you.
Doug
I have only made the door on my shop. not pretty but is is strong as hell. I built it solely from the perspective of keeping people out.
I can give you a couple of tips from a locksmith's point of view. The first thing that I see as a problem with a lot of stile and rail doors being made today it the width of the stiles and the rails. They are often too narrow.
With cylindrical locks there are two backsets (measured from the high edge of the door to the center of the cross bore) 2 3/8" and 2 3/4" this being said the rosettes for a deadbolt or a knoblock range from 2 1/4" to 3 3/4" doing the math You need the stile to be 4 5/8" wide to allow it to accept a variety of locking choices. That being said this minimum dimension puts the edge of the widest rosette at the inside edge of the stile.... UGLY! It is better to have a stile wide enough to allow the rosette to be centered in the stile. 2 3/4" + 2 3/4" = 5 1/2"
With mortise locks there are also two backsets, 2 1/2" and 2 3/4". the smaller one being more common on older locks and residential grade locks. Most Commercial grade (UL Grade 1) locks are only made in the 2 3/4" backset. The mortise depth required just to fit the mortise case of the lock is 4 1/2" in most cases. If you tried to install this lock in a stile of 4 1/2" wide you would be into the glass bead or the raised panel. A big no no.
http://professional.schlage.com/pdfs/pc/Heavy_Duty/L-Series/L9000_Install.pdf
If you look at many older doors the stiles are 5 1/2" wide or more. Chicago still has lots of old buildings. I have the pleasure of working on doors that IMHO were built correctly.
Deep breath...
the other factor is the rail with... Why? door closer. Hydraulic door closers need a pretty wide rail to allow for a good install. 3 3/4" is the minimum width for the following heavy duty door closer.
http://www.lcnclosers.com/pdfs/template_4040.pdf
There are narrower door closers and narrower types of locks out there but why limit yourself.
Modern standard door thickness is 1 3/4". An old standard was 2 1/4". Three pieces of alternating 3/4" boards make the 2 1/4" these face glued together makes for a very stable and strong door. You can also set up the pieces to have ready made mortise and tenons. anything over 2 1/2" thick is going to be a real pain to find hardware that fits... CUSTOM MADE!
I can't tell you how many times someone tells me they want to have a certain type of lock installed in there door and I have to tell them that I can't because the builder of the door was not thinking ahead. Or he followed what the architect told him to do.
Bad Archi! Bad!
The other culprit... Arched doors!! IIIIIEEEEE!!! Installing closers on these is a real pain.
Good luck!!!!!
Muleboy.
fine homebuilding had an article about a year back...
maybe worth a look..
http://www.taunton.com/store/pages/fh_toc_168.asp
CUSTOM DOORS, DONE EASY
by Scott McBride
Sandwich-style construction offers strength and flexibility
Edited 12/9/2005 4:56 pm by oak
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