I’m in the process of setting up a new shop. New machines, new 220 and 110 wiring.
I’ve been taking notes of most of what I’ve been doing and encountering so I can post some of my experiences, especially regarding wiring, current draw, voltage drops, experiences with air flow for the dust collection, etc.
I’ll also give a review of my new Grizzly band saw.
Everything’s about done except for mounting the Clear Vue cyclone dust collector on the wall. Mounting requires that I build the mounting brackets from MDF. The Clear Vue comes as a collection of pieces. Not only is “some assembly required,” some engineering is needed to make the bracket and get it mounted in the customer’s particular circumstances.
Without a dust collector, using my equipment meant getting the shop dusty before it was ever set up. And I had promised my wife that THIS shop would look pristine ALL the time. What to do?
I set up a make-shift table out on the driveway and began to measure the MDF to cut with my portable circular saw. I hate doing that. No matter how carefully I measure, and clamp guides, accuracy doesn’t approach using a table saw. I looked at my sliding table saw just sitting there and thought, “This is nuts, I’ll just have to make some dust and get it cleaned up.”
I cut the first piece of MDF. A nice controlled pattern of dust came out the 5″ dust port and deposited itself on the floor. Not bad. No real scatter. Nothing really blew into the air the way the internal baffling and dust hose within the body of the saw directed it. I figured I could finish the job and not have much more than a pile on the floor to deal with.
Then I looked at my new Ridgid shop vac. It’s a beast of a shop vac. I thought, what have I got to lose? Maybe it can suck up some of the mess and minimize the clean up. I cleaned up the small amount of dust on the floor and just stuck the shop vac’s hose as far as I could into the saw’s big 5″ dust port. I didn’t try to seal up the huge size mismatch. I just turned the vac on and started sawing.
That vac sucked up every last dust particle the saw produced. And sawing MDF produces a LOT of saw dust. NOTHING came out around the unsealed hose going in the dust port. Not a spec. The only thing the vac didn’t get was the tiny scatter of dust around the saw’s throat plate under the blade guard. The crown blade guard has its own dust port which just went unused. If I had connected that to the vac, and sealed the hose in the large dust port, that vac would have completely done the job.
So much for advise we give out here that shop vacs are for small tools and can’t handle the huge volume that a table saw can produce.
My wife looked at the shop vac, then at the cyclone parts waiting to be assembled and said, “And you needed to spend $1400 on that, because?”
(I smiled and said, “You’ll see!”)
Rich
Replies
Rich,
I'm sometimes a little slow -- I'm told it has to do with cranial wall thickness, but I think it's because I'm Swedish -- and there's something in your story that I don't understand. Why is it that you own what appears to be an exceptionally nice saw and some other really good toy . . . er . . . equipment, but your better half questions the new dust collector? Didn't you employ the same strategy in acquiring the DC as you did the previous stuff? I've got the blue-lines for my new shop in front of me even as I type, so I need to understand these things.
Verne
If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to cut it up and make something with it . . . what a waste!
Well Verne,She had just watched the shop vac completely handle the dust output of the table saw. The shop vac cost considerably less than the Cyclone. While I seriously doubt the shop vac could deal with the joiner/planer for more than a few minutes (maybe a few seconds) before choking, under the circumstances, her question was pretty understandable.When she sees the cyclone in action, its capacity will be obvious. But it was actually a little embarrassing to have the vac perform that freaking well, with its hose just loosely stuck in the saw's dust port like that, before the cyclone is up and running.Rich
You can rest easy. I can assure you as an even more stubborn Dane that the shop vac has its limits, and hooked to a planer, those limits are measured in minutes. After which you open it, dump it, and scatter a good portion of it all around.
I dont have the clear vue but keep hearing good things. My very un-fancy Jet cannister has made a world of difference over what the vac did for the large stationary equipment. My small tool collection now looks like a Festool commercial. But they work great, and dust free is really growing on me more and more.
Real trucks dont have sparkplugs
RW, rest assured it wasn't the dust collection I was confused about. It was the other part that . . . well, I'll just let it go at that. Verne
If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to cut it up and make something with it . . . what a waste!<!----><!----><!---->
My very un-fancy Jet cannister has made a world of difference over what the vac did for the large stationary equipment.
And I gave my bran new Jet away to the local school for their woodshop. Not many schools that still have a woodworking class around these days I would suspect..
However, I will agree my Ridgid shop vacuum will NOT handle the exhaust from my DeWalt planner... That planner tries to blow the lid off of my vacuume! :>)..
I bought a Delta and I think the school will get another like the Jet... They work but not any better than my old shop Vac...
"They work but not any better than my old shop Vac..." Will, what kind of connections (flex hose, solid pipe?) and how long from the tools to the dust collector?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
How long? Lets just say two lengths of standard hose.. 2.5 inch? Maybe 12/15 feet or so.. Not sure.
I do not hate the 'Other type'. I am just saying that the dust collection has never been any better and I can use that Shop vac for other things as needed. I only have had the Jet and Delta low end things so take it from there.
I DO use the paper bags in addition to the standard filter for the vacuum. I'm cheap so I empty out the paper bags until they are not useable.
I will say that the Delta worked better? Longer may be a better description on my recent cutting of Panga-Panga and Sapele that make HUGE amounts of very fine dust. I will admit that the Delta lasted longer on that dust.. Bigger bags!
EDIT: I forgot.. That motor on the big boy uses ALOT more Electricity. My electric bill is out of hand without my shop tools!
Edited 2/5/2009 9:34 pm by WillGeorge
SWEDE, Aw come on. Don't admit it to all these people. We swedes should stick together. Perhaps some wouldn't catch on.
Edited 2/2/2009 12:59 am ET by Tinkerer3
> Perhaps some wouldn't catch on.
That much I am sure of, Verne
If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to cut it up and make something with it . . . what a waste!<!----><!----><!---->
In my riding world, I'm outnumbered by Swedes and Danes. It's a toss-up which are more stubborn, but none of them are "slow", LOL!! forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
My sympathies!
My Norwegian ski buddy says they have no problems with insanity in Norway - they just ship 'em to Sweden where they go into politics. :)Any comments you guys want me to forward to him?BruceT
Just remember that Swedes are to only people who can spit to windward.
Rich,
Great story. I love hearing about others trying something just because. Nothing to lose and everything to gain? I'll be that $1400 dust collector is much quieter than the $200 version. It's funny - visitors to my shop always ask how loud my tools sound from the living quarters of the house. My response is: "I have no idea - I'm always in the shop."
Chris @ www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
(soon to be www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,It's been frustratingly slow getting the cyclone up and running. It's still in pieces, but I might get it done this weekend.I'm going to be isolating it from its bracket, and the bracket from the wall by more vibration-dampening material than Clear Vue indicates. Actually, they don't show any!Beyond vibration transmitted through the wall (if any) I understand that the thing will be loud. Louder than any of my machines. That 18" impeller is moving a lot of air. Clear Vue recommends building a dry wall enclosure around it if possible. That's part of my plan.Rich
Rich,That's unfortunate about the noise it will make. For a machine which will probably run more than any other, I would hope that it was reasonably quiet. That's one of the reasons I hardly ever use my shop vac. My 1HP dust collector is located in the next room (~3'x3'x6.5' tall).Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Chris,I'll let you know, soon.Building a dry wall enclosure around it will effectively put it in the "next room." It will be "standard" construction - 2x4 studs, sill, cap with dry wall on both sides, insulation inside, if necessary. It will just contain the cyclone in a corner of the shop.Rich
"...2x4 studs, sill, cap with dry wall on both sides, insulation inside, if necessary."Make that 5/8 drywall and seal all cracks. Mass is the most effective means of preventing sound from passing through a wall because it absorbs a lot of energy from the sound waves as they try to make the wall vibrate. Cracks also allow an air path for sound.
BruceT
bruce,Thanks. I'll follow that advice.Rich
Rich,If you really want to insulate the noise, use drywall on each side of the wall and don't two sets of studs so that vibrations can't travel through the wall. Eg. Use two sets of 2x3 studs, one set for each wall face.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com) - Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Edited 2/8/2009 9:02 pm by flairwoodworks
chris,"and don't use two sets of studs"I'm guessing you meant DO use two sets of studs.I had planned on dry wall on both sides but hadn't thought of that construction. Something to think about.I may have the thing mounted by late this afternoon and be able to take some preliminary sound measurements of the "open" machine without any of the PVC inlet piping in place.Rich
Rich,You are correct. I corrected my original post.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
A little information for anyone still following this thread. I've wired up the cyclone. The sound from this thing with the impeller shroud in place, but without the plastic cyclone enclosure mounted is IMPRESSIVE!It is LOUD! 95 db 3 ft from the unit. 92 db 6 ft away. It's in a corner of a concrete block wall garage structure, inches below the 8' dry wall ceiling. I'm sure the placement enhances the sound level.The sound is a deep-throated roar. There will be no way to comfortably do any woodworking in this level of sound. It's certainly not painful, but it's so completely dominating and distracting as to be dangerous to concentration and safety. It's almost impossible to shout over it and be heard!The sound-muffling dry wall enclosure will be of immediate priority after the cyclone is fully mounted (tomorrow).(BTW, the amount of wind coming out the discharge port is as impressive as the sound level)Rich
Rich,I'd be curious to see how you enclose the cyclone and how effectively it reduces the noise level. Do you have a decibel reader? (I'm sure there's a proper name for the tool, like sound-o-meter)Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
"Do you have a decibel reader?"Sound Pressure meter.Yes, that's how I posted the levels in the previous message. Actually it's an "App" for my iPhone! It's amazing the variety of utilities that are available. And most for $.99.On the other side of the wall, separating the garage from the laundry room, with the door closed between the two, the level is 60 db. That's a WORLD of difference. So I hope that building a standard wall around the unit will result in a very significant reduction.But with the inlet and exhaust ports necessarily open to the shop, the level is going to be higher than that in the laundry room.It's difficult to describe 95 db. "LOUD" just doesn't convey the experience. There's a palpable feeling of being in danger as the sound continues to rise over 5-8 seconds. It gets to a point where it's terribly loud and just continues to increase from there.
Rich,I wonder if Apple will start marketing their newest gizmo towards woodworkers. I don't think my cordless phone can do that! Can you measure voltage with your iphone? (Kids, don't try this at home!)In my shop, I always wear eye and ear protection when using power tools. Most of my friends wouldn't wear ear protection if I didn't make them.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com(soon to be http://www.flairwoodworks.com)
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
"Can you measure voltage with your iphone?"No. But I have an APP named "Carpenter." It is a functioning Plumb Bob, Spirit (vial) Level, Bubble (dome) Level and inch/mm ruler. All very usable, accurate, can be calibrated against known instruments.Rich
But can it collect dust, leave a silky smooth surface on a board, or raise a burr on a scraper? That's the question!Verne
If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to cut it up and make something with it . . . what a waste!<!----><!----><!---->
Speaking of Db meter applications. . .does anyone know of a download or app for an IMac or Powerbook. I'm curious to know how much noise my dust collector and air filter generate in the shop and I'm too cheap to buy a meter from Radio Shack.Regards,Ron
Get an iPhone!
Phones are still an expensive item in Canada. Only one carrier has them, and the associated phone/data plans aren't cheap! But they are a cool tool!Regards,Ron
Rich,
Get it out of the corner if possible. Honestly, you would not believe the difference that would be made if you could have it in the middle of your shop. Also, if you have to put it in the corner, are your blocks painted? I need to look up the NRR of painted and unpainted blocks but if I recall correctly you should see a little difference., but I don't think it will help that much. If it is that loud you will be required to wear hearing protection for a full 8 hours in the shop which could be pretty anoying.
Honestly, you have me ready to go perform some of those test we talked about concerning the dust collection too. If you would like me to workup a design that would get you below 85db I could, shouldn't take but a few minutes and if you are 85db at the source, if you use distance (as you measured with your SLM) you will be even less exposed.
Bio
p.s. I just looked up the NCR for your brick and if yours is coarse concrete block it is .36. One source of treatment could be an additional layer of noise reducing material on those walls to absorb some of that vibration. Adding a simple piece of carpet to those walls around the device will make a little bit of diffrence.
Edited 2/15/2009 12:00 am ET by BioHaz1906
Hi Rich
Im installing a C.V. too. Today I finised building the clean out box on the bottom of the filters And installed the 6in hose in the trash can. Still have to hook up my 6in sdr 35 ducting. really wanted the thinner stuff ASTM 2729 but can only find it in 4in around my area. It is really loud but tommorow Im going to build a closet around it. Im going do it like one of guys did it on the phot gallery of c.v. http://www.gallery2.clearvuecyclones.com/v/CV1800+and+CVMax/Abraham/
Do you have yours up and running yet?
Auto
auto,"Do you have yours up and running yet?"Just as I've described earlier. The motor is mounted with the impeller and the impeller shroud temporarily in place.The corner placement is the only convenient place in the shop to put the unit.A dry wall enclosure to fully contain it is the next thing to do. such a "closet" will certainly make a difference. But the enclosure can't be air tight. All the air going in the inlet ports must come back out through the filters and back into the shop through designed "leaks" around the closet construction. So just how much ROAR will still be present remains to be seen, um . . . heard.Rich
In my humble opinion, before nailing drywall on the framework, I would nail a thin layer of foam insulation or better yet would be to place the foam on the inside of the framework leaving a dead air space in between. Almost all of the noise emanating from your unit would then come only from the inlet and outlet of your unit.
Edited 2/15/2009 3:59 pm ET by Tinkerer3
Tinkerer,Thanks. Further up this thread is some discussion of insulating the enclosure wall. It'll be standard dry wall construction, 2x4s with 5/8 wall board on both sides and insulation in between. I've been told that expanding foam insulation will have more sound-stopping ability than fiber glass. But I have no data on that.Rich
I was just following up on some info about sound control between my new shop and the library above. Turns out the following link is a pretty good primer on sound control with some ideas that would be handy for isolating the DC unit. The biggest challenge is that you can't completely seal the enclosure, but I'm sure every little bit helps. I recommend taking a look at
http://www.jlconline.com/cgi-bin/jlconline.storefront/EN/UserTemplate/179?c=39be1e3805c0204cccae9e5cf277db71Verne
If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to cut it up and make something with it . . . what a waste!<!----><!----><!---->
Nice site, thank you for posting it. Good for isolating the shop noise from the house. But within the shop our problem really is a different one than that one. See slide #12: "For any type of acoustic treatment to work properly, the wall, ceiling, and floor assemblies need to be continuous. If there are any gaps or holes at room corners or around mechanical penetrations, the sound will pass right through. These sound leaks, called flanking paths, can seriously degrade acoustic performance and reduce the effective STC rating of a wall." We HAVE to have air coming into and out of the enclosure, and large volumes at that. These people who totally enclose the system and then have a little 2' x 2' return opening would seem to be both letting the sound out AND losing the CFM air flow they paid for. Life is a compromise... I'm sure it helps but it seems like a lot of work for a small improvement in sound and a loss of air flow.
The question for me is where is most of the sound coming from and what can I do about it?
I see 5 areas of interest:
1. Inlets.
2. Pipes to system.
3. Blower system. 3.a. Motor. 3.b. Fan itself 3.c. Cyclone.
4. Pipes to filter. (Where the few mufflers I've seen go, which may just be dealing with fan noise...)
5. Filter itself.If we knew how much of the noise came from each part we'd know how much work to put into each area for sound control.
Number 3.b.: the fan itself would seem to be the most important area to work on, hence the mufflers, most of which claim a 5-10 dB drop. But the mufflers also affect air flow.
I was thinking of covering the fan enclosure and cyclone body with soft foam to see if that helps much, has anyone done that? I'm not sure it is worth the effort either.
Edward
Yep. As I said, the biggest challenge is that you can't completely seal the enclosure, but I'm sure every little bit helps. Verne
If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to cut it up and make something with it . . . what a waste!<!----><!----><!---->
I have a CV1800. Its been up and running for over a year now. I use a pair of 25db reducing ear plugs and that works fine for me. No enclosure. Just a hum in the background. The noise is noticable in the house when its running.
Be careful when it comes time to chaulk all the joints. I rushed a bit, and didnt find all the leaks until I purchased a dylos. Its not nearly as easy to fix the joints once all the piping is connected.
What size of drum are you planning? I put a 45gal drum on, but sure wish I would have had the head room for the 75gal plastic drum I was looking at.
What type of piping are you planning? I opted for PVC, but now I wish I would have went the more expensive steel route. The Clearvue blast gates are not all that great. Little bits of debris tends to find it way into the little crevices and occasionally you have to remove this to get them to close.
Did you check out all the installs on the Clearvue forum. Lots of ideas.
Brad
brad,I caulked the unit today. I'm pretty sure I got it all. I'm just finishing up the cleanout box.As I've said above, building an enclosure for me is mandatory. There's no way I could work with that noise or using ear plugs. I just can't function isolated like that from the normal sounds I need to hear as I'm working.I'll be using 8" PVC piping. Although I saw cardboard tubing at HD today that I hadn't noticed before. It's very heavy duty and made for pouring concrete footings. It comes in 4' lengths at various sizes, including 8". It would work, but it doesn't seem to be manufactured to any kind of accuracy. Various sections all labeled 8" varied in diameter so much that it was possible to concentrically "nest" as many as 5 different pieces. That is, the largest accepted the next smallest inside it, then the next smallest inside it, and so on for a total of 5 tubes!Why do you think metal piping performs better than PVC?My pipe run will be very short - a 16' "backbone" on the ceiling with 3 main 8" flexible drops and 2 small drops.I'm limited to a collection drum (trash can) just shy of 30" high. I haven't figured out the capacity of such a can, but there's no way I can get a 55 gal drum in there. I've been tossing around the idea of building a rectangular bin instead, to house a large-capacity plastic bag.I've seen the many customer installations on the clear vue site. I agree that the supplied blast gates are a little primitive. I wonder how much I'll actually need to use gates.Rich
I dont think the PVC performs any better. I like the neatness of the metal piping. They have nice clamps, and professional fittings to mate up to the machines (even metric). The auto blast gates can also be added later too (well if $$ avail). I ended up fabbing up connectors out of stove pipe, pop rivets and duct tape to connect to the machines. You can get an HVAC co to build fittings, but at $75/hr it racks up pretty quickly. Clear Duct tape works at the pipe joints, but its not really all that high tech. I dunno, maybe I am too fussy.
I am not a fan of the sono-tube. It might work for a while, but I dont think it is a good solution long term. Maybe the sono-tube lined with plastic used for exposed concrete forms would work, but I dunno.
I would build a custom box or look into what plastic manuf offers for chip storage. The garbage can is a bit low tech, well for me anyway and it only stores about 15gal if I recall correctly. I found a nearby plastic manuf that had a lot of different plasitc bins to choose from. They were manuf for water storage so the walls of the bin are quite thick. The bigger the better. Even a 45gal barrel of jatoba chips weighs nothing assuming the barrel is light.
I suspect you will use the blast gates quite a bit. My saw/shaper outlet is near the ceiling and I dont always close it when I use the planer. I do notice a drop in the DC effectiveness.
Brad
http://www.freecalc.com/ductloss.htmAnother option you might consider is to make a square duct of wood or sheet goods you might have laying around. For the length you need the duct losses are small.An eight inch round duct has an area of 50.265 square inches. Square root of that is 7.09, so a square duct with 7" sides is the same area as the 8" round.I played with the above calculator by first using the 8" round and then 7" square, (both with galvanized metal, 1800 cfm, 16' long, and nothing else filled in) and there is a total duct loss of .976" of water with the square and .775" of water with round, or a difference of .2" for your planned main duct. If you made the square duct a little bigger and put in corners or coves to give it more of an octagon shape the difference would be less.
QC,That's an interesting thought for the ducting. I'll have to think about that.But transitioning from a rectangular to round cross section for the flexible hose will have to be engineered. PVC pipe seems to be the easier solution for me.Rich
If you make the duct a bit wider (slight increase in area) you can glue a short piece of round pipe (plastic/metal) in at a 45 degree angle and clamp the hose to it.Want to incorporate a blast gate into it? Make the bottom board of the duct a bit wider so that there is a flange on either side of the box. A slider under it with the hose attached can then be moved over or away from a matching hole in the duct as needed.
Hi Rich
I built the frame of the closet today and started runnning some ducting still have to enclose the frame, still pondering on that. I think I'm going to use insulation between studs then use sound board called Homasote I saw at Menards. Then use 4x8 sheets of dry earse board to finish it off. Gives me a big area to write all my notes and a place for the kids to draw. Still looking for a nice size vent to use for the return air.
I'm with you though, I have to have mine enclosed too, its way to loud not to. Any little bit will help.
Here is a sound clip I found of the C.V. Out in the open and enclosed
http://www.khalafoud.com/media/Clear...est_Jameel.mp3
Try this and then go to block #16
http://www.clearvuecyclones.com/Bullentin/showthread.php?t=769&page=2
Edited 2/16/2009 9:33 pm ET by auto
auto,dry erase board. Good idea!Rich
I love hearing about others trying something just because. Nothing to lose and everything to gain?
I do that for most of my projects.. Sometimes I fail but mostly I GAIN!
Explain to DW that the shop vac blows the really fine particles right out of its air exhaust where they fill the air and your lungs.
Cyclone with good filter traps particles down to 0.2 microns, so it's more healthy shop environment and you'll live longer. That should please her. If not, well then you may have a bigger problem. :)
BruceYup!Rich
Rich,
You should have asked me about this becaue I could have provided you advice on this one a long time ago. My basement shop only has one outlet so I definately could not get away with running a DC and any of my major tools i.e. jointer, planer, ts or bs at the same time. I had one big vac that my dad gave me and that thing was LOUD so I built a sound reducing box around it and now you don't even hear it running. Bought a switch that will allow it to come on when I turn my TS on and boom, it works pretty good. On the BS and spindle sander I just use a Rigid and another one of those automated switches and boom, does well again. Luckly on my planer I have a blower (Dewalt 735) so I just have the dust hood and a 55 gallon trash can that it dumps into. With the jointer I just let the shavings fall into a box on the floor because the majority of waste it produces isn't respirable anyway. Lastly, for the little dust that I do get on the floor my girlfriend bought me a DirtDog, one of those little automatic floor cleaners like the Roomba and you would not believe how well it does. The only major question about my vacs is if it will support a drum sander, if so Laguna here I come, the price on that 16/32 with free shipping is right up my alley.
Bio.
Bio,Read Bruce's message #15 above. There is a universe of difference between a well-designed cyclone and even another DC, let alone a shop vac. It's certainly possible to pick up a lot of dust with various kinds of "shop vacs." But it's what actually stays in the thing that matters.The cyclone separates just about ALL the dust from the air stream and dumps it into the collection bin before the air, containing just a little bit of residual fine duct gets to the filters. The area of the filter fabric is enormous and the filters can take care of particles down to a micron and below.That capability is just is not possible on other systems. A shop vac has a a tiny filter. It doesn't fit well, leaks like crazy and becomes clogged almost as soon as the vac has picked up a few cupfuls of debris.A shop vac's filter and those of standard dust collectors build up a "cake" of dust, which actually aids in filtration at first, but then that cake abrades and cuts the filter fabric, resulting in as much fine dust escaping as is drawn in.Because practically none of the dust load ever even reaches the filters of a cyclone, except tiny amounts of fine dust (maybe a cupful a week under very heavy use), the fabric doesn't deteriorate.It's the fine dust that is so harmful and that typically covers every surface in the shop. Cyclones excel at gobbling up huge quantities of dust and preventing the fine dust from escaping.Rich
Rich,
I know, I was just poking fun at knowing something you have experienced. Usually you are the one on here that is opening my eyes, but the dust collection aspect of ww I'm very familiar with because of my graduate work in industrial hygiene (my undergraduate is in engineering). I studied under a well respected respiratory protection authority and was well versused in respirators and dust control and then another one of my major advisors and committee members on my thesis was an industrial ventilation expert (Check him out at http://www.industrialventilation.net/). His site needs some work, but we have worked on some major ventilation project with much more harmful and respirable contaminants than sawdust.
When I first started on here I did an extensive thread for a guy where I discussed a lot of the things with dust and dust collection. I've actually inspected systems for major wood producing companies like Trus Joist where they do massive amounts of production in a highly dust controlled environment.
Bio
Well alrighty, then.I'm going to give you a full description of my Clear Vue's operation and characteristics once I get it operating (getting closer). How about giving it an inspection once it's running?I knew nothing about dust collection until I happened onto Bill Pentz' Web site,http://billpentz.com//woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm I don't ever want to suffer the consequences he has from dust inhalation and skin exposure.Rich
Rich,
With all the help you give me and the many others I would be glad to. A lot of times that I see people post about DC on here it seems that they try to do to much with to little. The CFMs that are produced is key and the running of the ductwork. I find to many bends, wrong diameter duct, inadequate support and far to long of runs to make things fit and ww's don't realize that they are then entraining the air or forcing the air and contaminants to work against eachother. Ive seen systems where people literally have a buildup of sawdust at the connection point of there machine because they make it difficult for the air to even get there. Yes it will suck up some, but not what it is supposed to because of inadequate design.
Your cyclone will be great for separating out the heavy, non-respirable particles but the 1 micron filter will help you do exactly as you say, get rid of all the potential bad stuff, or shall I say get rid of enough that will allow your body's natural defenses to get rid of it all.
I haven't built my DC because I'm not in my "dream house" just yet, but when I do build it I will definitely post the pictures.
Bio,This cyclone moves a lot of air. Here's the Clear Vue specs page:http://www.clearvuecyclones.com/Specifications.htm I have the CV 1800.I have very short runs to all the "big" machines and a moderate run to the work bench and smaller machines. The piping is 8" PVC, no 90 degree turns, hung from the ceiling to near each machine, then 8" flexible tubing down from the end of the ceiling runs to each machine's dust port, 5-1/2" each on the saw/shaper (and its 2" crown guard port) and joiner/planer and two 4" ports on the band saw and a single 4" port on the drill press.I've been advised that I really won't need to use blast gates as the air flow will be sufficient to leave them all open and still have plenty of draw at each machine. But I have the gates any way.I have yet to "engineer" just how I'll connect a router table, bench sander, ROS and downdraft table for the ROS.Rich
Rich,
Your setup sounds pretty good, but I would need to get out some paper and a pencil to really calculate whether you can get away without the blast gates, but just right off the top of my head I would go ahead and use them so that you don't get particles that settle in your duct over time. If you have them, use them and was was working good will be working even better.
In terms of collecting on the router table, collect both above and beneath. Assuming your router table will be on the wall, come down using a straight pipe and use a T to connect to the top of the table and then continue straight again to collect at the bottom. At the bottom use a 90 elbow and then go into the enclosure of your router. Make sure that when you build it you slant the bottom by 45 degrees or more to make sure things will drop and fall. One would assume to put the collection at the bottom of that, but honestly the better thing would be to put it in the center of that slant. This will especially take care of the more respirable dust and with the quality cyclone that you have it should get it just about all. Remember the router is enclosed too so the little bit that may not be captured will be safely trapped inside the door. Just put a dust mask on to empty it, but once again that dust shouldn't be that harmful. One important note on this configuration that I suggested. Using that 90 elbow I would make sure that I use a blast gate on this run. You want as much air flowing to the bend as possible because the friction there will entrain contaminants there if you don't have enough CFM. Also, note this, the noise of the cyclone being attached to the router table fence will probably be pretty LOUD because you will have a lot of air being sucked through a small 2 1/2" hole.
With the other items you discussed I would try to use the extremely close to the cyclone and use a blastgate to isolate the system. I would have two auxiliary connections that I could make that would tap into this isolated system. Taper one down to a smaller connect on a flexible hose to connect things like the ROS or biscuit jointer. Let me think about the downdraft table because initially I would think collect above and below the table, but that may not be the best thing to do it may be more efficient to just use some sort of angled hood at the rear of the table that would enable you to get what you need. Again, I need to get a pencil and paper out on that. What will be your table dimensions?
Bio
Bio,While calculating these kinds of things is useful, this is going to be mostly an empirical exercise in getting the setup right. I do have blast gates for all the lines. Whether they can all remain open is mostly academic. If they can, I'll leave them alone. If not I can close any or all as needed. There will be NO opportunity for dust to collect in any of the lines. I have ample adapters to move up and down in hose diameters. "Impedance matching" will be a primary concern.The location of various "stations" in the shop dictates to some extent the way I need to set things up. I have to take room where I can get it. Everything in the shop is mobile and it all "collapses" into a tight corner of one bay in a 3 car garage at the end of the day. I can set up into the whole garage and put away in less than a minute. It's amazing how maneuverable these Euro combo machines are. The band saw and drill press are stationary and everything else (saw/shaper, joiner/planer, work bench, assembly table, router stand, grinder, etc fits in around them like a puzzle. The hanging, flexible tubing gets pulled up out of the way to the ceiling.When the sliding table saw is "unfurled," its slider, outrigger and side tables take up a LOT of shop area, so I have to arrange other things around that and that's what dictates where the ducting goes.Rich
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