Friends,
For the past two years, I have gone to the Waterford, VA Arts and Crafts Festival. Most impressive of all work there was the furniture of our own Ray Pine. But there was someone else there who was doing something MUCH simpler than Chippendale furniture, that got me thinking. His name is Rip Mann, and he makes bowls using only an adze. He uses only green wood. He charges up to $500 a bowl for his work, and they sell. (very interesting). I have a question about drying such a bowl after carving it.
We had a red oak tree taken down behind our house last week, so I have some green red oak. I bought a bowl adze (the small Pfeil round adze). Last night, I took a 16″ long slice of oak and split it down middle. I figured I’d make two bowls out of it. I got out my trusty drawknife, and I flattened the top and the bottom of each piece and I took the bark and pith off of the round sides. That was a workout.
Next I will shape the inside and outside of the bowl.
Now my question.
While carving the bowl, Rip recommends keeping it (between sessions) in a plastic bag with a little water in it to keep it from drying out.
After you finish carving the bowl, Rip recommends that you start finishing it immediately, using mineral oil. For up to a week, he says to load it up with oil and leave it out for 12 hours, then put it in the plastic bag for 12 hours. After that you can stop using the bag, but add more oil every day for a while.
Then I read an article in an FWW by Howard Lewin which said that after you turn a bowl from green wood, you should put it in three paper bags, not plastic, and seal each tightly. Each day, you replace the bags. WHen the bags are bone dry, your bowl is cured, and then he recommends putting the finish on.
These two approaches sound QUITE DIFFERENT to me. One puts the finish on before drying. The other after drying. One uses plastic bags and the other uses paper bags. Is one likely to work better than the other? Do any of you have any experience with such things?
Lewin also mentioned using the microwave to dry the piece. Mine is small enough to go into the microwave oven. Any suggestions on that method? Is there any danger there? Is it a preferred method over two bag methods described above?
Thank you very much.
Meanwhile, I’ll tell you that this drawknife and adze work is a real workout. I can’t picture Norm doing that stuff 🙂 and Norm is still just a kid.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Replies
I use the plastic bag while I am still working it, and a spray bottle to keep it moist while it is out of the bag while working on it.
Once it is down to the thickness, I put it in a single paper bag. This slows down the drying enough to keep it from checking.
As for mineral oil, I don't think it is much of a finish since it doesn't dry, but it may be appropriate for this kind of project. It probably does the same thing as a paper bag by slowing the moisture loss.
You can fool around with the zap thing, while it is a good way to speed up drying, it is also a good way to dry the end-grain part faster than the long-grain sides, which will cause a split in the first. What is another week in the bag matter when it comes to the risk of wasting all of that work.
Keith,
I appreciate your advice. I don't plan to zap the bowl. I will use the plastic bag until the bowl is finished, then a single paper bag, as you suggested.
Thank you.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hey Mel, the last time I was out in DC, I was by the Renwick, and it just happened that the show which was up was mostly from the collection of friends of mine. But there was also a turning demo by a local club that day, and the members that were doing the demos were doing an excellent job. In fact they were better than the docents. I know there is a strong club there, if you are that close in, you ought to connect with some of those guys. While you have the R oak, I would rather use another wood for this kind of adventure, and maybe someone in the group would have something to share with you. Also before you get into this, I think the most important tool would be some sort of thickness gauge. I have made several that I use for turning that are the figure 8 type. They are easy to make, and as long as the wings / contact points are equal distance from the center pivot, the distance from each end will be the same. I like to make each leg of the tool a different shape, for getting into tights and around corners, or the bottom of deep contours.
Keith,
Next time you come by DC, let me know.
THanks for the heads up about the Capital Area Carvers. I know many of them already. I am a member of the Carvers group and the Woodworkers Guild but not the turners. I don't own a lathe. I started to use the red oak just because it was there. It can't hurt. But better woods are coming. I do have the figure 8 tools for gauging thickness. Come on over the next time you are in town.
Thank you.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I turn a lot of bowls, (hand carved ones look like a lot of work), about 200 a year and here is my process:
Rough turn the green stock to about 1.5 to 2 inches thick and coat with cheap paste wax. Put the roughs packed pretty tight in cardboard boxes with fresh shaving from the turning session and that goes into the shop loft for up to six months. Then they come out of the box stacked on open shelves for another six months. They are ready to finish turn at that point. They will be a bit oval but there is plenty of wall thickness to account for that. They dry very well because there is so much end grain exposed and I loose less than 5% to checking no mater the type of wood. At any time there are at least 450+ roughs in the loft everything from cherry and walnut to mulberry and catalpa. What ever logs I can get my hands on.
Taunton printed a book by Wille Sundqvist on Swedish carving of bowls and spoons. It was pretty good, a lot of folk traditions, etc.
Napie,
You know what you are talking about. 200 bowls/yr is a lot of bowls, and you don't lose many. I will get the Sundquist book that you suggested. Sounds like it is just my speed. Because I am not turning the bowl, I probably can't use your two step process. I probably won't be carving more than a total of 4 bowls, and I don't sell them, so if they dont work out, it is not the end of the world. This is an adventure. I enjoyed hearing about your process. It is quite creative.
Thank you for your help.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I have used Howard Lewin technigues and they work. If fact that article has cost me $1000s in lathes and tools but provided endless enjoyment turning bowls, LOL.
The paper bag trick is the easiest, however the bowl has to be mostly the same thickness (similar to a milled lumber). I never change the bags, check the progress after a week or two and by then it is usually dry enough to remove from the bags (if the bags are damp, put the bowl back in the bags). You are just trying to slow the drying process so the endgrain doesn't dry faster than the long grain and check. If you notice small checks at anytime you can apply 'superglue' to try and stop the check (later fill the check with superglue and sawdust).
The microwave also works but it is alot of zap and wait, zap and wait, and by the way your microwave will never be the same (sap). If you go too fast the bowl will check. However, it you are in a hurry to see the end result this will work. I turned my first bowl with green ash to about 1/4" thickness and zapped it and had a finished project the first night. I have been making green shavings ever since.
None of it is as hard as it sounds and I am sure there are plenty of other ways to dry a wet bowl. And besides your time, the wood is free right, what do you have to lose? If at first you don't succeed try try again and Have fun!!!!!!!!!!!!
Pheasant Hunter,
I will try the paper bag trick, after the bowl is carved. Until then, I'll use the plastic bag and some water. I don't think I will have an even thickness through the entire bowl. We'll see what heppens. That is what makes it an adventure. Thank you for the suggestion about superglue on the checks and also the addition of sawdust. I may need that suggestion. If the bowls turn out ok, I'll post a photo and any lessons learned. By the way, I have decided not to use the microwave.
I really appreciate your help.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
I've been turning greenwood bowls up to 10" in diameter for the past 9 months and have experimented with as many different drying processes as I can think of.
The microwave works well as long as you never put it in for a full minute. It also makes the bowl very hot - wear gloves! For someone who requires instant gratification, it is a good technique.
I have tried paper bags and plastic bags and favour paper. I know others believe in plastic, but from my experience, a wet bowl wrapped in plastic goes moldy.
Recently, I left the bowl turning on my lathe for a half hour with a heat gun about 18" away on low speed. While it did remove some moisture from the bowl, it also produced some checking.
The surest (and slowest) method of drying a bowl that I have discovered has already been suggested - putting it into a cardboard box filled with wood shaving from the bowl and letting it dry over a period of weeks or months, depending on the wall thickness. I have found that leaving the box (closed) in direct sunlight speeds the process with little risk of checking. Think of it as a small kiln.
Best of luck,
Chris @ flairwoodworks
Chris,
Great research. Thanks for sharing it with me. The point about getting moldy bowls should have been obvious, but it wasn't til you said it.
I'll let everyone know how this adventure turns out, even if it turns out badly.
Thanks,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hello everyone
I am in no way a pro. at turning, But I've been turning for 25+ years now. I consider my self a good hobbyist.
I've tried the paper bag, double paper bag approach. Plastic... Using wood chips, and even using salt to dry my turnings.
I like the water displacement approach. (and that is what I am playing around with at this min.)
PEG is to pricey for my taste , (but I do like the idea.)
I've done some good things using light oils as well. By soaking the wood in oil, My theory is the oil will displace the water with in the wood, and then letting the wood dry out normally, I find I have had some very good results. but I'm still not sure if this approach will work on all woods, I've tested Maple, and Red Oak so far everything is working out just fine.
I use light oil (china wood oil) using a brush I coat the hole bowl inside and out, than I fill the bowl inside with the oil and let it soak, using brush I coat the outside two more times per day, I let the bowl sit for a week. then I drain the oil and let the bowl air dry.
so far I've done this with six bowls and a lot of green turnings, I've had good results.
I am playing with the idea of having a barrel filled with oil, and letting the wood soak for a week or two,but so far I have not done so.
Just a few new idea. I thought I would share.
any comment or suggestions was always welcome.
have a good day.C.A.G.
One quick note
my approach idea really came from a old sailors method of using a solid wood mast on sailing boat/ships.
What I remember reading a long time ago, was to drill a hole in the top of the mast, and add the oil into the hole. place a bucket at the bottom of the mast, add oil until the oil starts to come out of the end grain at the bottom. then the mast is ready for use. paint or wax the mast and it should be ready for many years of service.
These are my words, I can find the article. now. but I have used this method many times over the years on my turnings.
You can take it or leave it, free advice is worth exactly what you pay for it! ;-)
C.A.G.
Mel,
I am also making the attempt at adz bowls. Let know how it turns out. I am supposed to pick up some green poplar this weekend to make the bowls. I figure they will make nice gifts for in-laws etc. I promise to post mine after you post yours. I am up in Frederick by the way.
Hello Dan from Frederick,
Glad to meet a neighbor.
We must get together and swing our adzes in unison for a FWW video.
It is hard to believe that I have found someone else who is willing to try to use an adze to make a bowl. I have told some folks about this, and what I get back is "That's a lot of work. Why don't you just turn it?" They just don't understand. I could just go to IKEA and buy em. I got the Pfeil small curved adze at Woodcraft.
What adze are you using?
I contacted Rip Mann yesterday. I had met him twice at the Waterford Festivals. I asked him about the adze. He insisted that his $350 adze is the only one to use, and that he doesn't make any money on it. YOu can go to his website and click on the button for email or contact, and it gives you a list of other websites. The last one is for his toolmaker. Looks like nice stuff, and only the bowl adze is terribly expensive.The Pfeil adze is about a 9 sweep and is semicircular. I believe it is about 2" wide or a little less. The $350 adze is a 7 sweep and it comes in 2 1/4 and 2 1/2 widths. Given the cost that is out of the question. However, Pfeil makes a hefty 7 gouge that is about 2 1/4". I think it is pretty close to the cut you'd get with the expensive adze. I might try that if my adze is insufficient. I am a carver so I have a nice collection of gouges. I told Rip that I was thinking of using gouges on the bowls as well as my adze. He did not favor that idea, even if I could get the same result using different tools. He felt that to be pure, you need to make an "adze bowl" with an adze. Let's see what happens. My approaches to woodworking are always eclectic. I have promised to put up a photo of my bowl regardless of how well or poorly it turns out, along with some lessons learned. If the two of us do that, we can make an interesting thread (at least to the two of us.) Let's keep each other posted. I am going to retire at the end of December. I'd like to get together after that, and talk some woodworking. Heck if things work out, we may do some adzing together for the FWW video crew. :-) I can see it now. We will be known as "In Synch 2" - the most famous adzing duo in the world. (and possibly the only one).Have fun. Thanks for writing.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hey you guys, In this age of technology, I find it funny that you are sitting here typing out on your computers, about chopping out a wooden bowl with an archaic tool like an adz. Oh yea, Well I am going to make mine by tying a sharp rock onto a stick for the only tool. On second thought, I might as well make it big enough to paddle down the creek. Ha Oh remind me sometime to tell you about spending a week inside a big hollow tree using one of those adz to chop away all of the punky and insect filled layers to prep it for using for the core for a stair. I felt like someone trying to tunnel out of prison. I kept asking myself what I was thinking when I sold that job.
I am not planning on being all that pure. I figure I can cut some relief cuts with my electric chain saw, knock the chicks out with the adz and work the surface with the adz till I get something I like. I will have to look at the adz I bought. It was a bowl adz, but I don't remember who I bought it from right now and it is down in the shop. I was planning on trying a jack plan I chamfered the iron on to use as scrub plan on the outside surface once it is roughed out. I promise to post, not matter how bad a disaster results.
I work up at Mount St. Mary's University in development. Wish I could say I was retiring in a few months. I stay as far away from DC as I can (same for Northern Virginia traffic).
Dan Carroll
Dan,
Let me know what info you have on your adze.Also, you said that you work in "development" at Mount St. Marys. What does development mean? By the way, I went to Catholic University back in 1960-64, and I am still not happy about Mount St Marys beating us all the time in basketball. MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
As in my world, development probably means fundraising!
Alan - planesaw
Alan,
You are the Yoda of Knotsworld.
You are a wise man.
I missed that completely.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
He is correct -- fundraising. Exact title is Director of Gift Planning. A great many folks had the problem in teh '60's when Jim Phelen had some great teams and a NCAA title. You know that Coach phelen only retired a couple of years ago after 47 years and is #4 on the NCAA all time wins list. Dan Carroll
Dan,
It is a small world.
I didn't remember Coach Phelan's name but I remember losing a lot of games to his team. "Director of Gift Planning" sounds like an interesting job. You are a money extractor. This morning, I rode in to work with a lady who is high up in the field of development for the Smithsonian. Sounds like her work day never stops. She needs to be there whenever the potential donors are around. Good luck with your job. It is an important one.I did the first work on the oak bowls with the adze. It arrived from Pfeil with a pretty good edge, but I honed it down to 400 paper and then stropped it on leather with 1/2 micron grit. Then I used it. Damn, that wood is hard. In a few strokes, you figure out the optimal angle. Then you figure out that your arm can only take so much. So then I got out a 60mm Pfeil gouge with a #7 sweep, and my heavy mallet. EEEEEEEEHHHHHHAAAAAAAAA!!!! That is one sweet gouge. I have a lot of experience carving, so I can make the gouge go exactly where I want it go go. The adze goes "nearby" to the desired target, so I only used it for the initial chopping of the center of the bowl, and then I expanded the hole with it. Then my arm was tired, and I smoothed everything out with the gouge just to get the hang of it. The cutting edge of the adze and the gouge are about the same. They both have a #7 sweep. The gouge is a bit wider. I didn't cut with the full edge of either. That is for Conan the Barbarian. I have had the piece of oak in a plastic bag for a few days. When I opened the bag, things were very wet. I swept up the chips and I put them in the bag along with the "bowl-to-be" and closed it up again. I can see now that my bowl production will be well below 400 most years. (maybe below 4). Poplar sounds like a more sane way to go. I will make no "adze bowls" from Brazilian Cherry or Canarywood. I am thinking, maybe basswood or balsa. :-) and then learning how to do fake-graining to make the resulting bowl look like Rosewood.I'll keep you posted.
Please do the same.
If we get good at this, maybe the woodworking tour will hire us to do the adze-carving classes and we will become as famous as Lonnie Bird.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
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