Replies

1. 
   9619 | Sep 13, 2009 05:44pm | #1

   Steve,
   I have had one for years. Very nice tool. Very High Precision. I made a set of drawers with five dowels in each joint. They hold heavy stuff and are used hard, but I expect they will be working well in three centuries.

   Dowels are not in fashion among woodworkers these days. That is a religious thing. I love to try things which aren't in fashion to find out why.

   If you show the Dowelmax to another woodworker, I find that they can't put it down. They are fascinated by its precision and simplicity. If you let them try it, the effect is overwhelming. WOW. That was fast. And the joint is VERY STIFF and strong even before I add glue!!!

   If you have any specific questions, let me know. You certainly don't need one. You can use M&T joints. But sometimes it is just plain easier and more fun to use the dowels.

   You can learn to cut dovetails by hand as fast as Frank Klausz if you practice. Then maybe the Dowelmax is not as useful.

   Some people say it cost too much. It is about the same as a Lie Nielsen bench plane. That is isn't bad. Consider what you are getting.

   Mel

   Measure your output in smiles per board foot. 

2. 
   flairwoodworks | Sep 13, 2009 06:33pm | #2

   Steve,

   I found that it is quick to learn and works as advertised. The fit and finish is excellent and the alignment of joints is great. I found the T-joint configuration a little tricky to get set up right and is my biggest complaint about the tool. Perhaps Mel can share some tips here...

   Chris @ www.flairwoodworks.com
   and www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)

    - Success is not the key to happiness.  Happiness is the key to success.  If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer

1. 
   stevemorris | Sep 14, 2009 03:34am | #3

   well i recently got one, i was interested in the opinios of others too.

   this little device is amazing, manfacturing processes result in a perfectly machined tool, and the resulting joinery is as good as anything else out there

   i know there was some dispute about the strength test done by FW recently

   my previous dowel jig was a "dowelit" from leevalley, its been in a shopdrawer for 10 years

1. 
   flairwoodworks | Sep 14, 2009 03:55am | #4

   Steve,Personally, I don't like relying on dowels for strength. Rather, I use them for alignment, such as when laminating a table top. I also was appalled to see in the demo and manual a wide (looked about 8" wide to me) solid wood apron being doweled to a leg with dowels top, middle and bottom. Surely that would invite cracking problems down the road. Not good practice.As I am sure you know, most of the strength from glued surfaces is from long-grain to long-grain. Tenons have lots of this. Dowels do not.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)

    - Success is not the key to happiness.  Happiness is the key to success.  If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer

1. 
   stevemorris | Sep 14, 2009 01:55pm | #5

   ive done a couple of simple tests myself after recieving a dowelmax and they indicate that a properly done dowel joint is as strong as or stronger than a mortise and tenon and far superior to any other joinery methods in sheet goods

   i've been building furniture for 25 years , mostly with mortise and tenon or my own shop made loose tenons so i think i can cut a pretty good joint, but a dowel joint is far quicker to build and just as strong

   i compared a M/T joint (3/8 by 2inch by 2 inch tenon) with a dowelmax joint with 4-4 inch dowels joining a couple of pieces of white oak(3/4 by 3 inch). it appears from the picture in FWW that they used 2 inch dowels in their test comparing it to a 2 inch tenon with twice the penetration, hardly a fair comparison

    

2. 
   9619 | Sep 14, 2009 03:17pm | #6

   Steve,
   You mentioned the FWW test of strength of various joints, including dowel joints.FWW joint tests are "interesting". I read them, and then I "think" about what they mean. I rarely hear a pro comment on FWW "reviews". Newbies LOVE the reviews. There are thousands more newbies than pros. FWW is in the business to make money. The pros "think" better, and know better. The most difficult thing one faces in developing a review of anything is "What are the important aspects of this thing?" Is strength important in joints. Sure, up to a point. Suppose all joints could withstand 100,000 pounds of pushing and pulling in every direction, but no one ever put more than 100 pounds of pushing and pulling on them. That would be like testing automobiles to see if they could withstand an atomic blast. I have a test of joints. Do they withstand normal use? I have hundreds of dowel joints in furniture that I have made since 1968. NOT ONE SINGLE FAILURE! What does that tell you? Well critics of dowels say, "JUST WAIT, THEY WON"T LAST 300 YEARS!" You know, they may be right. I will write to you in 300 years and let you know.The editors at FWW who want to do a review of joints would be better served if they took a more cerebral approach to the task, and began by testing joints in actual use for the levels of stress that is placed on them, and then added a safety factor. The problem is that all joints would pass the test. YOU CAN"T HAVE THAT IN A JOINT REVIEW, CAN YOU? Stop to think of how bridges are designed. My second son is a bridge designer. They figure out the stresses that could be placed on the bridge and then they add a BIG BIG safety factor. But they only go so far. They do not design inland bridges to be able to withstand a tidal wave twice a day for a year.My experience is that I have never had a failure with the joints I made with a Stanley doweling jig. Using that, I could never get more than two dowels in each joint on frame for a raised panel. With the Dowelmax, I can easily and quickly put in about one per inch of width. If I were Editor in Chief of FWW, I would do reviews exactly as they do them now. What I suggested above would take too much time, and would not be acceptable to the "lower rung" woodworkers who want "winners and losers" rather than deeper understanding. Magazines HAVE to be aimed at the lowest common denominator if they are to live and thrive. FWW has a lot of great articles for average and better woodworkers, and they make the magazine worth it. My hats off to the Editors of FWW. Chris said he had problems using the Dowelmax in T joints. I haven't experienced that. It is true that they are more fussy than L joints, but I have never screwed one up.If I were you, I'd use the Dowelmax every once in a while to get a better feel for dowel joints BASED ON YOUR EXPERIENCE, and not based on what others tell you. However, I recommend that woodworkers think about doing a handcut dovetail joint every day. After a year, you will be able to cut them faster and better than others can do with jigs, and they will be fun, and then you start throwing in some houndstooth dovetails, and people say "WOW". Unfortunately no one ever says "WOW" to a dowel joint. But they nevert saw "Wow" to a rabbet or a dado and I use them all the time. :-)I hope my writing doesn't hurt your head. I have learned to live with ambiguity. When I was younger, I wanted the world to be neater and cleaner than it actually is.Have fun.
   MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot. 

1. 
   stevemorris | Sep 14, 2009 03:47pm | #7

   you're right on all points

   im both a procabinet maker who works mostly with sheet goods and a hobbiest woodworker, i enjoy M/T work for the hobby aspect but on the job its not financially feasible

   i use dowel joints regularly for time ecomony both in sheet goods and solid lumber and the dowelmax is a godsend!!

1. 
   9619 | Sep 14, 2009 05:56pm | #9

   Steve,
   "you're right on all points"I never hear words like that.
   You are now my favorite woodworker!!! :-)
   Nothing like the Dowelmax for a guy in your shoes.
   Post a photo or two of some of the cabinets you have done.
   Do you know "OldDusty"? He is VERY VERY VERY GOOD! If you don't know him already, I suggest you get to know him.
   Have fun. Good luck in your work.
   MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot. 

2. 
   flairwoodworks | Sep 14, 2009 04:25pm | #8

   Great post Mel.Perhaps my preference for tenons rests in my position as a perfectionist who tries to apply logic to too many situations. In my head, logically, tenons should be stronger than dowels because of all the extra long-grain to long-grain contact surface. And should the glue fail, a draw-bored M&T should be the best of the bunch. But that's just my logic.And of course, not every situation requires the utmost strength. Face frames, for example. But on chairs, being subject to racking and lots of abuse, I would not skimp on joinery.My gripe with the T-joint is that it is significantly harder to align and secure the jig than the rest of the other configurations. To me, it seems an afterthought.Your last point is your best. Don't do something because somebody says to. Do it because you've tried it, you like the technique, and you feel that it is best suited to the job. Trust yourself over all others.Chris @ http://www.flairwoodworks.com and http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com)

    - Success is not the key to happiness.  Happiness is the key to success.  If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer

1. 
   9619 | Sep 14, 2009 06:08pm | #10

   Chris,
   Wow. Two people said that I said some correct stuff.
   It has gone to my head.
   Now I think I am a real pro. :-)Steve is the best example I have seen to prove the point that "Best" is relative. For his application, dowels are much "Best-er" than things that take more time. They are strong enough, and they are easy and fast. People will replace the cabinets in 15 years, and the dowels will FAR outlast that.So you like tenons better than dowels.
   I always thought of dowels as tenons.
   You may be a Canadian, but I think of you as an "American". After all, Canada is in North America.
   The Festool Dominos are tenons. Biscuits are tenons. All of these are "Loose tenons", but tenons nonetheless. The guy who developed the original biscuit joiner, the Lamello, in Europe, used to demonstrate the strength by making a "shelf" between two uprights, and then stand and jump on it. I tried it, and was quite impressed. BISCUITS are fast and easy and really strong, and IMHO, are "BEST" (of course there is no such thing as best) or at least appropriate in some circumstances (not in purpleheart Chippendale highboys).I used to think that "Fine Woodworking" is limited to high style period pieces and superbly made modern stuff. But as I learned about the people who subscribe to Knots, who actually provide a good way of defining what "Fine Woodworking" REALLY is, include just about everything that you can make out of wood. I like this new way of looking at Fine Woodworking, which is much more realistic and eclectic. "LET US ALL COME TOGETHER, DOWN BY THE RIVERSIDE."
   And that includes the dowel users. :-)
   Have fun, my North American friend,
   MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot. 

2. 
   stevemorris | Sep 14, 2009 07:15pm | #11

   dowels, installed properly are the best way to create wood joints

   hey i said it!! and i believe it!!

   ok so they wont work in exposed joinery(the're ugly), i still like dovetails(exposed) for drawer boxes, through tenons for some things i build, but for regular hidden joinery, a well executed dowel joint cant be beat

   ive struggled with junky and good dowel jigs over the years to the point that i gave up on them, the dowelmax changed that. its simple, quick and more than strong enough

   as an example(its no prize furniture) here's a computer desk i built for a client, the hutch section is all dowel joinery, completed in two days

    

   
3. 
   DougGF | Sep 16, 2009 06:57am | #12

   I've got no dog in this hunt since I use both methods for joints and usually use biscuits for alignment purposes.  I did however, get curous about the glued surface area of 3" x 2" x 3/8" tenon compared to 4 dowels of equal length and diameter.  Its getting on in the evening but if my math is correct the tenon has 13.5 sq. in. of 4-sided long-grain surface area and 4 - 2" x 3/8" ( 4 inches overall length) dowels have 9.438 sq. in. of long-grain surface area.  To obtain roughly equal glued surface area you would need 5 - 6 dowels.

   No agrument - just curious.

   Doug

    

    

4. 
   stevemorris | Sep 17, 2009 01:22pm | #13

   i did a similar calculation and yes the tenon wins, so why are dowel joints stronger?

   it has to be in the precision of the fit, the dowelmax holes are extremely precise and a well made dowel is equally so