Hi Folks,
I’m in the process of preparing the end of my bench for the new Veritas Twin Screw. On the front face of the bench, attached a long (84″) piece of 8/4 Birch that I purposely left long in anticipation of this.
I would like to dovetail the end piece of the apron into the front piece. Having read another post about the difficulty of cutting DTs in these thicker boards, I’m a little apprehensive as the best way to tackle this. But I think I can manage.
There is a large front vise already mounted on the front apron so I hope there won’t be any issues with that. I’m contemplating removing the front apron, setting it on the bench and marking the tails on it. Once complete I will then somehow figure a way to align the end piece under the front piece for marking the tails. I’m thinking it would be easier to assemble both doing it this way.
Does anyone see any flaws in this approach? Also any words of wisdom regarding installing the vise would be most welcome. I have read the manual several times, as suggested by Veritas.
Hopefully I have provided sufficient info. I am making the measurements and markings for the Twin Screw tonight.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Replies
Bob
Your approach sounds good to me. you can clamp the end cap flush to the top of the bench, and lay the front apron on top to register and mark the pins.
If you are not confident hand cutting 8/4 stock, you may wish to consider doing the cuts on a bandsaw using either your tilting table to 14° or build a jig. If your table tilts, make sure it tilts the full 14° in both directions. Some of the smaller ones only tilt to 10° toward the saw.
Can't help you with the vise. Lataxe can. He wrote a nice thread about it a while back. Do a search, if you can get the damned thing to work. I can't.
Jeff
Jeff,
Thanks for your help, man.
The 14° tilt is for the pins, right? They being on the end piece which is relatively short compared to the front apron.
The front apron is about 84" long though. Trying to cut tails on it is getting me weary thinking about it! Not sure about that one. May have to cut by hand?
I remember the Lataxe post, but as you said I've had as much luck finding it via the search engine as I've had finding the Jolly Biscuiteer!
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
kidder,
I may be wrong, but I put the pin on the front apron and half blind it into the breadboard end.
My guess as to whether pins or tails are on either piece may have more to do with asthetics than any other consideration. Any way I connect these two pieces, I'd like the connection to be eye catching but not at the expense of strength.
Along these lines I thought of using cherry for the vise jaws as it is softer than the birch (kinder to clamped pieces) and also could further enhance the look. Anyone have any thoughts on this?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
The orientation of pins and tails should not be an asthetic decision. You want to design the joint so that under anticipated loading the joint wedges tighter.
In this case the tails belong in the side rails, and pins in the end rail. If you use bench dogs on the bench, and push the peice against them with the face of the vice the end rail the vise is attached to wants to pull way from the table. The tails are wedged tighter by this load.
Jigs,
Since your post I went ack to the plans. The Twin Vise has bolts that are inlet (not sure if that's the right word) into the end of the vise about 4" with captured buts & washers securing the apron to the bench.
I'll post a pic tomorrow, but I think that should prevent the vise from pulling the apron off the bench, if I'm understanding you correctly.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Jigs,
Here is the pic from the instructions. I would think that this should allow any end apron connection. Please chime in if you think otherwise.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
The tails belong in the front and back rails. Which was your stated intent in the original post. As you are using a modern vice and attachment method, it probably doesn't really matter from a structural standpoint in this instance.
One of my pet peeves is dovetails that are constructed wrong for the loading the joint will see in service. I guess to me they are extremely unaesthetic in the wrong orientation, even when due to other factors they have become more decorative than structural.
Not this subject but, yes, that irks me too. Pins in the side panels of standing and hanging units so tops and bottoms have little or no contribution to resisting gravitational forces are the most obvious example. One other is pie safe tins pierced from the outside inwards for cosmetic reasons ensuring they act as oversized fly traps.
Bob: This should work well.
I saw this and considered it also when I installed my twin screw vise but, rather than drilling and inserting the nut, I decided to counterbore and use two large lag screws. Since the top is hard maple the connection is solid and I thought it would hold-up as well (and is easier to do, IMHO). So far after a year albeit of light use, I've been pleased with it as well as the vise itself. Am not sure if the bolt and nut arrangement is a better choice and why but that's what I did.
I made sure that I took my time and followed the installation instructions very carefully (as their instructions suggest) so that everything lined-up correctly (and to my amazement it worked ;>)
Bruce
Bob,I was puzzled as to why you and Jeff were having problems, since the search function usually works for me. I put in "vise" for Find Messages, "lataxe' for Additional Criteria; From, and used 1 Year Ago for Updated From, and let it grind away. I got 23 hits.Going through them it was obvious that not all were on the Veritas twin vise, so I went back and put "Veritas" into the Find Messages...and this time I got ZERO, even though Veritas was right there in plain sight in the fifth hit. So I have to agree, something is screwy (and it's not just a vise).Anyway, it appears to boil down to Message Numbers 32919, 33822, and 34347 (in which he replied to you, by the way). Good luck with it,
Dan
Hi Dan,
After I saw your post I went back and tried some of my own criteria including putting lataxe in the From/or field. Returned 0!
Having many years in the computer field I fully understand that searches can be the bain of programmers. I had thought that my criteria(s) should have worked. I did notice that if you relax them a bit, you get all kinds of hits, but wading through all lof them to find what you're looking for can be frustrating at best.
Anyway you have found the one I was lookiing for (34347) and I thank you very much. I recalled posting this and was trying to find it but had no luck. It had many interesting tidbits from several folks.
Thanks again for your help. Next time I'll just email you with what I'm looking for, OK? :-) :-)
By the way, the install is progressing quite well. More work on it tonight.
Best Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob
Layout your tails on your front 84" apron. Using a support stand to hold the long end behind you, cut them on your bandsaw tight to the line. As long as your saw is cutting perpendicular, you will be fine. Once you've pared to the shoulder line, and are happy with the tails, use them to layout the short end piece. Now, just match the tilt on your bandsaw to the angle of your tails (using 14° makes it easy), and cut your tails close. Pare to fit with a sharp chisel, and you're done.
Jeff
Bob,You're welcome, happy to help.Maybe Jeff is right. I'm using a Mac with OS X and Firefox, so I don't have the PC security software to deal with. Your guess would be better than mine on that.I just tried your search for anything from Lataxe (going back just a year) and got 195 hits. Tried using Safari instead of Firefox and got the same result. But then I tried a search for "veritas." which got absolutely zero this morning - and got 200 hits with a Next 50. Seems like it's as much a function of time of day or phase of the moon as it is of software.Dan
Dan
By no means do I consider myself a computer wiz! Much to the contrary, indeed! However, I believe this site and its' software work differently depending on your level of security on your pc. I run my business with my pc, and have it set up like Fort Knox protecting the princesses virginity, if you know what I mean.
I cannot search for anything here. It comes up a big fat 0 everytime.
Jeff
Hi Jeff,
Your Fort Knox computer secuurity clearence should have nothing to do with searching FWW. Good move on your part to keep it safe; not easy to do.
I've noticed several other problems with the site but are really minor in terms of security. I would most like to see a searcheable index to past articles in FWW. Even if FWW were to produce a Word document containing all the indexes that I could download, I could search on my own to find what I'm looking for.
I have all the issues from #1. Oh well. Hang in there. The best may yet to come? Some great stuff in #191.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,You may have missed it, but back in January there was a thread titled "Article Database Index" that had a post #34129.8 from BenM with an Excel spreadsheet that indexed all issues up to August 2006. If it's not what you're looking for, at least it's a good start.And in #34534 in February, fgnoel offered to send his Excel spreadsheet with indexes for several woodworking magazines (1500 entries). I followed up and he sent me the spreadsheet, but unfortunately he had already moved to Office 2007, and Microsoft's Mac business unit didn't have a file converter yet so I couldn't open it. I guess I ought to check, back then they thought it might be done the end of March. Care to place a bet?Dan
Hi Dan,
I remember the post, r.e. Excel index. Since that time, I tried an experiment and scanned some of the past indexes from the mags. into a Word document. This worked rather well using the built in Find/Replace function. You have to press enter to scroll through the hits, but it works for a simple and dirty solution.
Scanning all the indexes is rather time consuming though. I'd be surprised if Taunton usees Word to construct the magazine. Maybe they should contract with Google to provide a search engine for the site? Actually, that gives me an idea. Why not use Google to search FWW?
As far as the bet, if it's the PC platform, NO WAY! Not familiar with their performance with the MAC platform, but I doubt it's much different. :-) :-)
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 4/16/2007 9:33 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
Hi Jeff,
I used a block of scrap and ended up cutting the DTs by hand. I left the front apron attached to the bench. Worked out quite well.
Now I'm drilling the holes for the vise screws and the forstner bit I have is stalling, big time. Any recommendations on good forstner bits?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
When it comes to drill bits, I never skimp. I use mine alot, so I get good ones. I bought my forstner bit set 10 years ago, and they are still excellent. Mine are coated with tin ( I think) but I don't remember the brand name. I recently bought new brad point bits, the good ones from Lee Valley. Pricey, but worth every penny. Drilling a 3/8's hole should leave you with a 3/8's hole, not a sloppy 13/32's hole.
Jeff
Hi Jeff,
Yea, I agree with you on the bits. That won't happen again with me. I should have known better! I'm finding that good quality is worth the cost. It actually turns out to be less expensive in the long run.
I should have listened to my Grandpa!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob: I built Lon Schleining's bench in FWW 167 Tools & Shop and also installed the Lee Valley twin screw vice. I used 8/4 cherry for the aprons; mounted the front vice in the front left corner and the twin screw vice on the right end. I had never hand-cut dovetails.. nevermind in 8/4 stock so it was a bit overwhelming to me also. I put the tails in the front apron per Lon's plan (but made then equal size vs his plan). I cut the tails first (with a dovetail saw vs band saw since I don't have one yet) then clamped (using pipe clamps) the front apron in position and then clamped the end apron in place to mark the tails. Take a look at the article to see how Lon did it. The outcome wasn't perfect but pretty close. I also cut half bind dovetails to the left end of the bench and the fit was much better (if I did it again I'd do the left end apron dovetails first and then do the left front last since they're a focal point of the bench and the second time cutting them was a better result. The twin screw was fun to install but follow the instructions to the "letter". Hope this helps. The pictures in the article helped alot. Good luck.
P.S. From your kind contributions to knots you're probably a lot more experienced then I, but thought I'd add my comments.
I really appreciate your inputs.
As you suggested I will take a look at Lon Schleining's bench. Right now I have a birch front apron installed with a front vise on the left front. The Twin Screw will go on the right end and will be full length across it.
As you did, I am thinking of making the jaws from cherry so as to be kinder to pieces clamped within and I think it will make a nice contrast as part of the dovetails. The right end of the bench has no apron yet so adding another cherry apron to it should look real nice. Thanks for the suggestion.
The thing I like most in Knots is that everyone, no matter what level of experience they have attained, graciously offers their experiences freely to the benefit of all. Can't get any better than that!
Best Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob: The contrasting woods should be beautiful! Good luck with it. Would love to see pix's when it's done.
Lon S also had a follow-up article in FWW to built a case with draws to fit underneath (one of my future projects).
P.S. I see you're from Northern NH. When I lived in Exeter, NH for 15 yrs. before relocating to Florida 6 yrs. ago, I joined the Guild of NH Woodworkers...a great group. Don't know if they still sponsor what was called "Wood Day" at Canterbury Shaker Village but it was alot of fun. Most of the furniture I've made has been Shaker.
Once I retire we're hoping to start a woodworking club in the Ft. Myers area. Closest one around is up by Tampa.
Take care.
Bruce
Bruce,
With another 8-10" of snow being dumped on us right now, Ft. Meyers sounds like the place to be. Man, it's going to be a short summer!
One of the problems up here, for me at least, is there are NO clubs/guilds anywhere near me. The NH Guild is a long trek and there are no members close by that I know of. My uncle and I are starting the crude beginnings of a club up here and am finding there are a lot more of us hiding in the woodwork, so to say.
Hopefully this weather will break soon so I won't have to run the heater up in the shop all the time.
Best Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
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